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Kitten1929
LIF Adult
Member since 1/13 6040 total posts
Name:
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Pro-life or Pro-birth?
Goldenrod brought up an excellent point that I had overlooked. Pro-life should mean that all forms of life are promoted, and that people who are against abortions but want the babies to be born should theoretically support taxpayer funded welfare and other forms of public assistance and social programs, refugee support, etc. Pro-birth means you want the baby born but are against abortions and taxpayer funded assistance.
With that said, would people who consider themselves pro-life still consider themselves that or would they consider them pro-birth?
This is a very interesting dichotomy that I am really curious about now that it was brought up.
Message edited 10/25/2016 10:14:06 AM.
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Posted 10/25/16 10:13 AM  |
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ElizaRags35
My 2 Girls
Member since 2/09 20494 total posts
Name:
Me
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Pro-life or Pro-birth?
I've always said that pro-life is a misnomer.
I've never heard of pro-birth but that makes sense. Personally I believe those who consider themselves pro-life should really be considered anti-choice.
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| Posted 10/25/16 11:49 AM |
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ModDot
PUMPKIN ALL THE THINGS
Member since 8/11 2196 total posts
Name:
Trissy
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Pro-life or Pro-birth?
I agree with both of you, meaning...pro-life is less about caring about the actual LIFE and more about the lack of choice.
Message edited 10/26/2016 11:14:34 AM.
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| Posted 10/26/16 11:07 AM |
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GoldenRod
10 years on LIF!
Member since 11/06 26792 total posts
Name:
Shawn
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Re: Pro-life or Pro-birth?
I'm pro-"life", but not "pro-life"
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| Posted 10/26/16 11:11 AM |
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Kitten1929
LIF Adult
Member since 1/13 6040 total posts
Name:
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Re: Pro-life or Pro-birth?
Posted by GoldenRod
I'm pro-"life", but not "pro-life"
Gotcha
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| Posted 10/26/16 11:13 AM |
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Kitten1929
LIF Adult
Member since 1/13 6040 total posts
Name:
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Pro-life or Pro-birth?
I mean look - I get it, people who are against abortions may not want to say they are also against taxpayer funded assistance for the babies they don't want to see aborted. But I think it's a conversation worth initiating because some people may not even make the connection. And maybe some people will say, hey wait this is hypocritical of me. But I'm not going to fight with people who are pro-life (birth) for what they feel are their personal beliefs. Just interested in hearing people's thoughts.
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| Posted 10/26/16 11:15 AM |
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MC09
arrrghhh!!!!
Member since 2/09 5674 total posts
Name:
Me speaks pirate!
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Re: Pro-life or Pro-birth?
Posted by ElizaRags35
I've always said that pro-life is a misnomer.
I've never heard of pro-birth but that makes sense. Personally I believe those who consider themselves pro-life should really be considered anti-choice.
Absolutely agree! It is a misnomer. My belief is that you're not really pro-LIFE if you're against public assistance. What you are is pro-birth, and what that really is is anti-choice. Basically, you're just trying to control women. "You must have this baby and you must figure out a way to pay for it and raise it on your own." Abortions will never go away. They will just occur in back allies and the mother's (and child's) life will be at risk. As a fellow human being, if you don't care about the mother's life, then you don't really care much about the baby's either. You care about your political stance.
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| Posted 10/26/16 11:51 AM |
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ModDot
PUMPKIN ALL THE THINGS
Member since 8/11 2196 total posts
Name:
Trissy
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Re: Pro-life or Pro-birth?
Posted by MC09
Posted by ElizaRags35
I've always said that pro-life is a misnomer.
I've never heard of pro-birth but that makes sense. Personally I believe those who consider themselves pro-life should really be considered anti-choice.
Absolutely agree! It is a misnomer. My belief is that you're not really pro-LIFE if you're against public assistance. What you are is pro-birth, and what that really is is anti-choice. Basically, you're just trying to control women. "You must have this baby and you must figure out a way to pay for it and raise it on your own." Abortions will never go away. They will just occur in back allies and the mother's (and child's) life will be at risk. As a fellow human being, if you don't care about the mother's life, then you don't really care much about the baby's either. You care about your political stance.
Political and religious stance. Which, keep religion out of politics, it drives me insane when politicians pull their religion as a reason to not pass bills etc.
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| Posted 10/26/16 12:11 PM |
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MC09
arrrghhh!!!!
Member since 2/09 5674 total posts
Name:
Me speaks pirate!
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Re: Pro-life or Pro-birth?
Posted by ModDot
Posted by MC09
Posted by ElizaRags35
I've always said that pro-life is a misnomer.
I've never heard of pro-birth but that makes sense. Personally I believe those who consider themselves pro-life should really be considered anti-choice.
Absolutely agree! It is a misnomer. My belief is that you're not really pro-LIFE if you're against public assistance. What you are is pro-birth, and what that really is is anti-choice. Basically, you're just trying to control women. "You must have this baby and you must figure out a way to pay for it and raise it on your own." Abortions will never go away. They will just occur in back allies and the mother's (and child's) life will be at risk. As a fellow human being, if you don't care about the mother's life, then you don't really care much about the baby's either. You care about your political stance.
Political and religious stance. Which, keep religion out of politics, it drives me insane when politicians pull their religion as a reason to not pass bills etc.
Yes! It's so inappropriate. I was coming at it from the political party aspect, but you're right also religious.
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| Posted 10/26/16 12:13 PM |
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ModDot
PUMPKIN ALL THE THINGS
Member since 8/11 2196 total posts
Name:
Trissy
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Re: Pro-life or Pro-birth?
Posted by MC09
Posted by ModDot
Posted by MC09
Posted by ElizaRags35
I've always said that pro-life is a misnomer.
I've never heard of pro-birth but that makes sense. Personally I believe those who consider themselves pro-life should really be considered anti-choice.
Absolutely agree! It is a misnomer. My belief is that you're not really pro-LIFE if you're against public assistance. What you are is pro-birth, and what that really is is anti-choice. Basically, you're just trying to control women. "You must have this baby and you must figure out a way to pay for it and raise it on your own." Abortions will never go away. They will just occur in back allies and the mother's (and child's) life will be at risk. As a fellow human being, if you don't care about the mother's life, then you don't really care much about the baby's either. You care about your political stance.
Political and religious stance. Which, keep religion out of politics, it drives me insane when politicians pull their religion as a reason to not pass bills etc.
Yes! It's so inappropriate. I was coming at it from the political party aspect, but you're right also religious.
It's that one thing that makes me so angry and want to rub their faces in the constitution
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| Posted 10/26/16 12:15 PM |
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mommy2B3
2 boys 2 girls!!!!
Member since 7/08 3324 total posts
Name:
M
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Re: Pro-life or Pro-birth?
I just think there's so many options for this that it's hard to be clear on where anyone stands. For myself, I am pro-life, but for others I am pro-choice even if I truly think making the decision to have an abortion is wrong. Does that make sense? I feel that the choice is up to the woman, that they should have the option to have an abortion, but I don't see myself ever saying that was a "good" choice. It's also not to say it's a "bad" choice either, it's just not a choice, I myself would make.
I am also not entirely for all these social programs. I truly believe many people take advantage of the programs offered, and I do feel that we should use the allocated money in a better way. I don't believe things should just be handed out, without people doing something in return. It doesn't teach anything but entitlement. I have these views from how I grew up, seeing first hand the abuse of these programs.
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| Posted 10/26/16 12:26 PM |
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lululu
LIF Adult
Member since 7/05 9511 total posts
Name:
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Re: Pro-life or Pro-birth?
Posted by ModDot
Political and religious stance. Which, keep religion out of politics, it drives me insane when politicians pull their religion as a reason to not pass bills etc.
Can I just ask why it has to be a religious stance? I am not religious at all, I'm not spiritual and I don't believe in god, but I would still never want to have an abortion.
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| Posted 10/26/16 12:37 PM |
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eroxgirl
My Loves
Member since 5/05 15697 total posts
Name:
Rebecca
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Re: Pro-life or Pro-birth?
Posted by mommy2B3
I just think there's so many options for this that it's hard to be clear on where anyone stands. For myself, I am pro-life, but for others I am pro-choice even if I truly think making the decision to have an abortion is wrong. Does that make sense? I feel that the choice is up to the woman, that they should have the option to have an abortion, but I don't see myself ever saying that was a "good" choice. It's also not to say it's a "bad" choice either, it's just not a choice, I myself would make.
I am also not entirely for all these social programs. I truly believe many people take advantage of the programs offered, and I do feel that we should use the allocated money in a better way. I don't believe things should just be handed out, without people doing something in return. It doesn't teach anything but entitlement. I have these views from how I grew up, seeing first hand the abuse of these programs.
Your stance is the very essence of what being pro-choice is all about. You would not choose that for you. That's perfectly okay. You'll probably raise your family to believe the same. That's great, that's your right. You're not making the choice for me. That's the important distinction.
And from where I sit, there's nothing wrong with being against entitlement programs AND being pro-choice. It's when a person is against both that it gets a little hard to swallow (for me).
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| Posted 10/26/16 12:39 PM |
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mommy2B3
2 boys 2 girls!!!!
Member since 7/08 3324 total posts
Name:
M
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Re: Pro-life or Pro-birth?
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by mommy2B3
I just think there's so many options for this that it's hard to be clear on where anyone stands. For myself, I am pro-life, but for others I am pro-choice even if I truly think making the decision to have an abortion is wrong. Does that make sense? I feel that the choice is up to the woman, that they should have the option to have an abortion, but I don't see myself ever saying that was a "good" choice. It's also not to say it's a "bad" choice either, it's just not a choice, I myself would make.
I am also not entirely for all these social programs. I truly believe many people take advantage of the programs offered, and I do feel that we should use the allocated money in a better way. I don't believe things should just be handed out, without people doing something in return. It doesn't teach anything but entitlement. I have these views from how I grew up, seeing first hand the abuse of these programs.
Your stance is the very essence of what being pro-choice is all about. You would not choose that for you. That's perfectly okay. You'll probably raise your family to believe the same. That's great, that's your right. You're not making the choice for me. That's the important distinction.
And from where I sit, there's nothing wrong with being against entitlement programs AND being pro-choice. It's when a person is against both that it gets a little hard to swallow (for me).
Thank you for your response. I think I have a hard time saying pro-choice without explaining myself because people sometimes call pro-choice, pro-abortion, and that's not something I want to be boxed into.
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| Posted 10/26/16 12:50 PM |
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Re: Pro-life or Pro-birth?
Posted by lululu
Posted by ModDot
Political and religious stance. Which, keep religion out of politics, it drives me insane when politicians pull their religion as a reason to not pass bills etc.
Can I just ask why it has to be a religious stance? I am not religious at all, I'm not spiritual and I don't believe in god, but I would still never want to have an abortion.
YOU would never want to have an abortion (truthfully, I don't feel anyone really WANTS to have an abortion) but that doesn't mean that someone else needs or has to or even wants to have one. ETA: I am not picking on you, at all, but this issue is so much bigger than you or me, you can't really just think about it in terms of yourself.
Ultimately, it is usually considered a religious stance because mostly religious people believe that life begins at conception. I guess you may be the exception to that....
To the OP, I agree with you. It is such a shame that WOMEN would have to birth and raise a child but not be able to have access to programs IF they needed them. It makes actually no sense. Because, ya know, a woman should be punished for having an accidental pregnancy but men can do whatever...
And yes, people take advantage of government programs, but many, many people do not.
Message edited 10/26/2016 1:12:41 PM.
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| Posted 10/26/16 1:11 PM |
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JennP
LIF Adult
Member since 10/06 3986 total posts
Name:
Jenn
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Re: Pro-life or Pro-birth?
Posted by mommy2B3
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by mommy2B3
I just think there's so many options for this that it's hard to be clear on where anyone stands. For myself, I am pro-life, but for others I am pro-choice even if I truly think making the decision to have an abortion is wrong. Does that make sense? I feel that the choice is up to the woman, that they should have the option to have an abortion, but I don't see myself ever saying that was a "good" choice. It's also not to say it's a "bad" choice either, it's just not a choice, I myself would make.
I am also not entirely for all these social programs. I truly believe many people take advantage of the programs offered, and I do feel that we should use the allocated money in a better way. I don't believe things should just be handed out, without people doing something in return. It doesn't teach anything but entitlement. I have these views from how I grew up, seeing first hand the abuse of these programs.
Your stance is the very essence of what being pro-choice is all about. You would not choose that for you. That's perfectly okay. You'll probably raise your family to believe the same. That's great, that's your right. You're not making the choice for me. That's the important distinction.
And from where I sit, there's nothing wrong with being against entitlement programs AND being pro-choice. It's when a person is against both that it gets a little hard to swallow (for me).
Thank you for your response. I think I have a hard time saying pro-choice without explaining myself because people sometimes call pro-choice, pro-abortion, and that's not something I want to be boxed into.
I hear you. No one is pro abortion - if you are, you're a sociopath!
I do believe that reasonable people - even people who are anti abortion - realize that distinction, though.
Most people I have heard describe themselves as pro choice precipitate that by saying "I wouldn't have one but...."
Regarding entitlement programs - this is an issue that I feel definitely has a gray area and reasonable people can disagree.
However, I want to encourage anyone forming an opinion on these things to do so on facts, not anecdotes, and as I recall the facts say the percentage of estimated abuse is very, very small.
I have no problems with limitations or restrictions that are reasonable. However, we need a safety net for the vulnerable, especially as long as we have the 1% growing more and more wealthy every day and corporate greed rampant and unrelenting.
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| Posted 10/26/16 1:22 PM |
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Kitten1929
LIF Adult
Member since 1/13 6040 total posts
Name:
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Re: Pro-life or Pro-birth?
Posted by mommy2B3
I just think there's so many options for this that it's hard to be clear on where anyone stands. For myself, I am pro-life, but for others I am pro-choice even if I truly think making the decision to have an abortion is wrong. Does that make sense? I feel that the choice is up to the woman, that they should have the option to have an abortion, but I don't see myself ever saying that was a "good" choice. It's also not to say it's a "bad" choice either, it's just not a choice, I myself would make.
I am also not entirely for all these social programs. I truly believe many people take advantage of the programs offered, and I do feel that we should use the allocated money in a better way. I don't believe things should just be handed out, without people doing something in return. It doesn't teach anything but entitlement. I have these views from how I grew up, seeing first hand the abuse of these programs.
In response to the social program aspect, the abuse of welfare systems is actually a lot lower than people think, and also, much harder to maintain. I have never seen firsthand abuse. But some people (not saying you) cling to thatas an excuse to be against social assistance without knowing any facts.
FFS
The Atlantic
The Atlantic
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| Posted 10/26/16 1:27 PM |
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mommy2B3
2 boys 2 girls!!!!
Member since 7/08 3324 total posts
Name:
M
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Re: Pro-life or Pro-birth?
Posted by Kitten1929
Posted by mommy2B3
I just think there's so many options for this that it's hard to be clear on where anyone stands. For myself, I am pro-life, but for others I am pro-choice even if I truly think making the decision to have an abortion is wrong. Does that make sense? I feel that the choice is up to the woman, that they should have the option to have an abortion, but I don't see myself ever saying that was a "good" choice. It's also not to say it's a "bad" choice either, it's just not a choice, I myself would make.
I am also not entirely for all these social programs. I truly believe many people take advantage of the programs offered, and I do feel that we should use the allocated money in a better way. I don't believe things should just be handed out, without people doing something in return. It doesn't teach anything but entitlement. I have these views from how I grew up, seeing first hand the abuse of these programs.
In response to the social program aspect, the abuse of welfare systems is actually a lot lower than people think, and also, much harder to maintain. I have never seen firsthand abuse. But some people (not saying you) cling to thatas an excuse to be against social assistance without knowing any facts.
FFS
The Atlantic
The Atlantic
The fraud aspect I don't think can be calculated because those that are scamming the system are going undetected. But again, I think I feel that way only because I grew up in that environment, and so now I have a blatant stereotype that I can't shake all these years later. So my bias truly comes from my personal knowledge and not real facts or statistics, but even when I read the facts, I still don't believe it bc of that bias.
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| Posted 10/26/16 2:07 PM |
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Kitten1929
LIF Adult
Member since 1/13 6040 total posts
Name:
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Re: Pro-life or Pro-birth?
Posted by mommy2B3
Posted by Kitten1929
Posted by mommy2B3
I just think there's so many options for this that it's hard to be clear on where anyone stands. For myself, I am pro-life, but for others I am pro-choice even if I truly think making the decision to have an abortion is wrong. Does that make sense? I feel that the choice is up to the woman, that they should have the option to have an abortion, but I don't see myself ever saying that was a "good" choice. It's also not to say it's a "bad" choice either, it's just not a choice, I myself would make.
I am also not entirely for all these social programs. I truly believe many people take advantage of the programs offered, and I do feel that we should use the allocated money in a better way. I don't believe things should just be handed out, without people doing something in return. It doesn't teach anything but entitlement. I have these views from how I grew up, seeing first hand the abuse of these programs.
In response to the social program aspect, the abuse of welfare systems is actually a lot lower than people think, and also, much harder to maintain. I have never seen firsthand abuse. But some people (not saying you) cling to thatas an excuse to be against social assistance without knowing any facts.
FFS
The Atlantic
The Atlantic
The fraud aspect I don't think can be calculated because those that are scamming the system are going undetected. But again, I think I feel that way only because I grew up in that environment, and so now I have a blatant stereotype that I can't shake all these years later. So my bias truly comes from my personal knowledge and not real facts or statistics, but even when I read the facts, I still don't believe it bc of that bias.
I can absolutely understand that.
The people that don't have any knowledge, except the "so and so and so and so told me" - those are the ones that get me.
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| Posted 10/26/16 2:20 PM |
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Re: Pro-life or Pro-birth?
I'm not really answering your question, but it sounds as though you're discussing the ideas of the Democrats For Life of America, a national organization. That might be interesting to look into; many people are truly pro-life...whether the life has just been conceived or is out of the womb.
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| Posted 10/26/16 5:54 PM |
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