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Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

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MrsS2005
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Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

NEW YORK (AP) -- Contending that women have more options than they do in the event of an unintended pregnancy, men's rights activists are mounting a long shot legal campaign aimed at giving them the chance to opt out of financial responsibility for raising a child.

The National Center for Men has prepared a lawsuit -- nicknamed Roe v. Wade for Men -- to be filed Thursday in U.S. District Court in Michigan on behalf of a 25-year-old computer programmer ordered to pay child support for his ex-girlfriend's daughter.

The suit addresses the issue of male reproductive rights, contending that lack of such rights violates the U.S. Constitution's equal protection clause.

The gist of the argument: If a pregnant woman can choose among abortion, adoption or raising a child, a man involved in an unintended pregnancy should have the choice of declining the financial responsibilities of fatherhood. The activists involved hope to spark discussion even if they lose.

"There's such a spectrum of choice that women have -- it's her body, her pregnancy and she has the ultimate right to make decisions," said Mel Feit, director of the men's center. "I'm trying to find a way for a man also to have some say over decisions that affect his life profoundly."

Feit's organization has been trying since the early 1990s to pursue such a lawsuit, and finally found a suitable plaintiff in Matt Dubay of Saginaw, Michigan.

Dubay says he has been ordered to pay $500 a month in child support for a girl born last year to his ex-girlfriend. He contends that the woman knew he didn't want to have a child with her and assured him repeatedly that -- because of a physical condition -- she could not get pregnant.

Dubay is braced for the lawsuit to fail.

"What I expect to hear [from the court] is that the way things are is not really fair, but that's the way it is," he said in a telephone interview. "Just to create awareness would be enough, to at least get a debate started."

State courts have ruled in the past that any inequity experienced by men like Dubay is outweighed by society's interest in ensuring that children get financial support from two parents. Melanie Jacobs, a Michigan State University law professor, said the federal court might rule similarly in Dubay's case.

"The courts are trying to say it may not be so fair that this gentleman has to support a child he didn't want, but it's less fair to say society has to pay the support," she said.

Feit, however, says a fatherhood opt-out wouldn't necessarily impose higher costs on society or the mother. A woman who balked at abortion but felt she couldn't afford to raise a child could put the baby up for adoption, he said.

'This is so politically incorrect'
Jennifer Brown of the women's rights advocacy group Legal Momentum objected to the men's center comparing Dubay's lawsuit to Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court ruling establishing a woman's right to have an abortion.

"Roe is based on an extreme intrusion by the government -- literally to force a woman to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want," Brown said. "There's nothing equivalent for men. They have the same ability as women to use contraception, to get sterilized."

Feit counters that the suit's reference to abortion rights is apt.

"Roe says a woman can choose to have intimacy and still have control over subsequent consequences," he said. "No one has ever asked a federal court if that means men should have some similar say."

"The problem is this is so politically incorrect," Feit added. "The public is still dealing with the pre-Roe ethic when it comes to men, that if a man fathers a child, he should accept responsibility."

Feit doesn't advocate an unlimited fatherhood opt-out; he proposes a brief period in which a man, after learning of an unintended pregnancy, could decline parental responsibilities if the relationship was one in which neither partner had desired a child.

"If the woman changes her mind and wants the child, she should be responsible," Feit said. "If she can't take care of the child, adoption is a good alternative."

The president of the National Organization for Women, Kim Gandy, acknowledged that disputes over unintended pregnancies can be complex and bitter.

"None of these are easy questions," said Gandy, a former prosecutor. "But most courts say it's not about what he did or didn't do or what she did or didn't do. It's about the rights of the child."



What do you think? IMO, if the man thinks he is old/mature enough to have sex, he should be mature enough to deal with the consequences of a pregnancy. The financial burden should not just be on the mother simply b/c she chooses to have the baby. The law should look out for the best interests of the child.

Posted 3/8/06 8:13 PM
 
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saraH
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

while i see the point of this, i find it hard to see the man's side of the argument. if i choose to abort my child, my so can say no, i can't? i don't get that.

Posted 3/8/06 8:19 PM
 

05mommy09
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

"25-year-old computer programmer ordered to pay child support for his ex-girlfriend's daughter."

This statement just bothers me.... She's his daughter too...

I agree with you... if you can handle sex...then he should be able to handle the consequences that follow....

A woman should not be penialized because she chooses not to go through the procedure of an abortion...

Posted 3/8/06 8:19 PM
 

mrswask
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

I definitely agree in terms of the man having to have responsibility - if you don't want the responsibilty of an unwanted child - don't have sex, or wear a condom EVERY TIME!!!!

But, at the same time - reading the article you just posted - if what that guys claims REALLY happened and he was tricked by his girlfriend who told him she couldn't get pregnant - I don't know what to think...

Yes - we could make the argument that he still should have worn a condom for disease protection - but what if they had both been tested and were clean - and HE thought that he was in a truthful, honest relationship. Women can be just as deceitful and sneaky as men - so in cases like that - who knows? How could it be proven? It's a rough situation!

Message edited 3/8/2006 8:21:23 PM.

Posted 3/8/06 8:19 PM
 

dpli
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D

Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

Posted by MrsS2005
"Just to create awareness would be enough, to at least get a debate started."



To create awareness of what? I don't get this comment.

IMO the bottom line is that if two adults choose to have sex, protected or not, they should be prepared to deal with the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy. If you don't want to pay child support, keep it in your pants.

Message edited 3/8/2006 8:22:13 PM.

Posted 3/8/06 8:20 PM
 

dm24angel
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

Bottom lime- use a condom...wont find yourself here

Posted 3/8/06 8:20 PM
 

05mommy09
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

Posted by mrswask

I definitely agree in terms of you do want responsibility - don't have sex, or wear a condom EVERY TIME!!!!

But, at the same time - reading the article you just posted - if what that guys claims REALLY happened and he was tricked by his girlfriend who told him she couldn't get pregnant - I don't know what to think...

Yes - we could make the argument that he still should have worn a condom for disease protection - but what if they had both been tested and were clean - and HE thought that he was in a truthful, honest relationship. Women can be just as deceitful and sneaky as men - so in cases like that - who knows? How could it be proven? It's a rough situation!



People are told they can have kids.. and end up preg. quite often....

So NOTHING is 100% and that alone was reason to wear a condom...

Posted 3/8/06 8:21 PM
 

Redhead
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

Posted by dm24angel

Bottom lime- use a condom...wont find yourself here


condoms break....
accidents happen
Pills dont' work....

either way i think that if the woman decides to keep the child and the man doesn't....
If a woman is going to make that decision solo...then they should expect to be raising the child solo...

i really don't think that the men should have to pay child support...JMHO

Message edited 3/8/2006 8:46:29 PM.

Posted 3/8/06 8:27 PM
 

nov04libride
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

Posted by Redhead

Posted by dm24angel

Bottom lime- use a condom...wont find yourself here


condoms break....
accidents happen
Pills dont' work....

either way i think that if the woman decides to keep the child and the man doesn't....
If a woman is going to make that decision solo...then they should expect to be raising the child solo...

i really don't think that the men should have to pay child support...JMHO



I agree. Many women lie, say they are on the pill, etc., and get PG for one reason or another...We have a lot of the control in this because it is our body, our pill. Yes, men wear a condom, but that should never be the only protection if you are 100% sure you don't want accidents. My BIL's GF is having their baby, and he begged and pleaded with her not to have it, though she is keeping it. As much as he doesn't want it, a very large portion of his income for the next 18 years will be supporting this child. Most likely he won't stay with his GF (unrelated to the baby issue), and if he does marry and have other children this financial drain will always be huge. I was talking to my brother about it, and he made a valid point--you have to totally trust whoever you sleep with, and know that in the case of an accident you are both on the same page about how you will deal with it.

Message edited 3/8/2006 9:10:01 PM.

Posted 3/8/06 9:06 PM
 

Shelly
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

I'm sorry- but men have responsibility here too. He could have worn a condom, even though she thought she could not get pregnant. He could have been extra cautious, but he CHOSE not to. He CHOSE not to wear a condom knowing there was a slight chance that she could get pregnant. He made a choice- and so did she.

The only 100% affirmative way to avoid pregnancy is abstinence. He could have also gotten a vasectamy. He CHOSE not too.

If he wore a condom and it broke, then that would be one thing. But he didn't take ANY precaution, so therefore, he should be responsible.

Posted 3/8/06 9:10 PM
 

nov04libride
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

Posted by Shellyesq

I'm sorry- but men have responsibility here too. He could have worn a condom, even though she thought she could not get pregnant. He could have been extra cautious, but he CHOSE not to. He CHOSE not to wear a condom knowing there was a slight chance that she could get pregnant. He made a choice- and so did she.

The only 100% affirmative way to avoid pregnancy is abstinence. He could have also gotten a vasectamy. He CHOSE not too.

If he wore a condom and it broke, then that would be one thing. But he didn't take ANY precaution, so therefore, he should be responsible.



But say a man tells me he had a vastectomy, and we are in a LTR...Do I trust him, as he trusted her that her condition was such that she could never get PG? Is her word a contract here? If she made up the condition, I would think maybe he does have a case.

Posted 3/8/06 9:11 PM
 

~Colleen~
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

Posted by Redhead
either way i think that if the woman decides to keep the child and the man doesn't....
If a woman is going to make that decision solo...then they should expect to be raising the child solo...

i really don't think that the men should have to pay child support...JMHO


Do you think that opens new doors for the "dead beat dad"? Just another excuse to eschew their responsibility? I think if this somehow ever became legislation, the fine line's would become murky.

Posted 3/8/06 9:11 PM
 

Redhead
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

Posted by Shellyesq

I'm sorry- but men have responsibility here too. He could have worn a condom, even though she thought she could not get pregnant. He could have been extra cautious, but he CHOSE not to. He CHOSE not to wear a condom knowing there was a slight chance that she could get pregnant. He made a choice- and so did she.

The only 100% affirmative way to avoid pregnancy is abstinence. He could have also gotten a vasectamy. He CHOSE not too.

If he wore a condom and it broke, then that would be one thing. But he didn't take ANY precaution, so therefore, he should be responsible.



How do you know HE DIDN"T wear a condom...

HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

they break. By best friend was on the PILL and she got PG.

Saying that he should have...is an incomplete picture

Posted 3/8/06 9:12 PM
 

mrswask
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

Posted by Shellyesq

I'm sorry- but men have responsibility here too. He could have worn a condom, even though she thought she could not get pregnant. He could have been extra cautious, but he CHOSE not to. He CHOSE not to wear a condom knowing there was a slight chance that she could get pregnant. He made a choice- and so did she.

The only 100% affirmative way to avoid pregnancy is abstinence. He could have also gotten a vasectamy. He CHOSE not too.

If he wore a condom and it broke, then that would be one thing. But he didn't take ANY precaution, so therefore, he should be responsible.




OK - so to play devil's advocate for a moment - let's say he wore a condom and it broke - let's say she was on the pill and she still got pregnant - and now chooses to have and keep the baby....

Posted 3/8/06 9:13 PM
 

dooodles
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

I have never thought a man who does not want a child and tries to protect himself during intercourse should be held accountable. As said, accidents happen, men get tricked. This is a lifetime, lifechanging decision for both a man and a woman. If a woman decides she wants to continue a pregnancy that wasn't planned, why should the man be held accountable if he was not looking to become a father? Just because a woman decided that she wanted to be a mother? Where is that fair?

Message edited 3/8/2006 9:14:27 PM.

Posted 3/8/06 9:13 PM
 

mrswask
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

Posted by dooodles

I have never thought a man who does not want a child and tries to protect himself during intercourse should not be held accountable. As said, accidents happen, men get tricked. This is a lifetime, lifechanging decision for both a man and a woman. If a woman decides she wants to continue a pregnancy that wasn't planned, why should the man be held accountable if he was not looking to become a father? Just because a woman decided that she wanted to be a mother? Where is that fair?




Well said Donna!

Posted 3/8/06 9:14 PM
 

Redhead
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

Posted by Colleen9304

Posted by Redhead
either way i think that if the woman decides to keep the child and the man doesn't....
If a woman is going to make that decision solo...then they should expect to be raising the child solo...

i really don't think that the men should have to pay child support...JMHO


Do you think that opens new doors for the "dead beat dad"? Just another excuse to eschew their responsibility? I think if this somehow ever became legislation, the fine line's would become murky.


no i don't....

i think there is a HUGE difference between two people having children, deciding to have children than a woman getting PG and deciding on HER OWN that she wants the kid regardless of the "dad".

I dont' think it is fair that a woman decides arbitrarily to do this regardless of what the man thinks

AND if she does...she should expect to do it onher own

Posted 3/8/06 9:14 PM
 

Karen
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

Interesting article, I am not sure how I feel.

But, if the GF flat-out lied about not being able to get preggo, I have a problem with this guy having to pay for her lies for the next 18 years of his life.

Posted 3/8/06 9:15 PM
 

Shelly
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

Posted by Colleen9304


Do you think that opens new doors for the "dead beat dad"? Just another excuse to eschew their responsibility? I think if this somehow ever became legislation, the fine line's would become murky.



I completely think is what would happen. You will have a LOT of deadbeat dads out there claiming they didn't want the children. How would you be able to enforce child support? Even Puff Daddy had to be brought into Court to pay child support. It is such a bad idea. A man can always claim he didn't want the child- even if he encouraged her to have it in the first place.

In the case at hand, if the woman misled him adn lied about a condition, then that would be fraud and maybe he would have a case. But I don't think there is a Family Court judge in this Country that would allow this. It would get rid of child support.

Posted 3/8/06 9:15 PM
 

Redhead
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

Posted by dooodles

I have never thought a man who does not want a child and tries to protect himself during intercourse should be held accountable. As said, accidents happen, men get tricked. This is a lifetime, lifechanging decision for both a man and a woman. If a woman decides she wants to continue a pregnancy that wasn't planned, why should the man be held accountable if he was not looking to become a father? Just because a woman decided that she wanted to be a mother? Where is that fair?


i agree!!

Posted 3/8/06 9:15 PM
 

~Colleen~
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

Posted by mrswask

OK - so to play devil's advocate for a moment - let's say he wore a condom and it broke - let's say she was on the pill and she still got pregnant - and now chooses to have and keep the baby....


He consented to having sex - he should live with the consequences. If he didn't want a child, he shouldn't be having sex if he can't handle the "what if's".

Posted 3/8/06 9:17 PM
 

dooodles
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

While I know many women with deadbeat ex-husbands who wanted to be daddy's but couldn't handle the pressure, I also remember the type of girls I went to high school with and arguing with them because they were lying to guys about being on the pill and poking holes through their condoms without them knowing so they could get PG on accident. Many of these girls did and I truly feel sorry for so many of the guys who got roped into marriage and supporting the girls and the children.

NOT FAIR

Posted 3/8/06 9:19 PM
 

Redhead
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

Posted by Colleen9304

Posted by mrswask

OK - so to play devil's advocate for a moment - let's say he wore a condom and it broke - let's say she was on the pill and she still got pregnant - and now chooses to have and keep the baby....


He consented to having sex - he should live with the consequences. If he didn't want a child, he shouldn't be having sex if he can't handle the "what if's".


see i can see that part of it....
but it isn't convincing enough for me

And what if we reversed the scenario

What if the MAN wanted the child and the WOMAN didn't....

she can just abort without any input of the "dad"....

now how fair is that...Chat Icon

Posted 3/8/06 9:19 PM
 

~Colleen~
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guess

Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

Posted by dooodles
Where is that fair?


Isn't that part of the "rules" thouh - that you CAN get pregnant no matter what precautions you take (b/c accidents do happen and abstinence is the only 100% guarantee) and thus should take responsibility?

Posted 3/8/06 9:19 PM
 

dooodles
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Re: Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy

Posted by Colleen9304

Posted by mrswask

OK - so to play devil's advocate for a moment - let's say he wore a condom and it broke - let's say she was on the pill and she still got pregnant - and now chooses to have and keep the baby....


He consented to having sex - he should live with the consequences. If he didn't want a child, he shouldn't be having sex if he can't handle the "what if's".




So for a guy to consent to having sex, means he is signing on for a lifetime committment???

Posted 3/8/06 9:19 PM
 
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