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redstar
Delay is not denial
Member since 5/05 2220 total posts
Name:
Michelle
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I am upset...:(
I am posting this because I just feel upset today. I am upset that feelings have been hurt. Feelings of people who have done nothing but encourage, support and help others. It is sad....when a person's success is not an inspiration. It is also disheartening when a person voices their opinion and it get's misinterpreted. I don't think anyone who actually posted on the board about Kathy's u/s photo....truly wanted it removed. Yet someone who posted was misunderstood and it caused sadness. TTC for most of us who have been at it for awhile is not 'easy'. It's a crazy rollercoaster ride, filled with tons of emotion. (Add in a few fertility meds and those emotions can be even more intense). I think this board is very different than the others on lifamilies. This board symbolizes the desire for our families to grow. In a sense the girls on this board are part of that growth. I hope we do not lose any of the members of this family because of misunderstanding or a difference of opinion.
Message edited 9/8/2005 5:51:17 PM.
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Posted 9/8/05 5:42 PM  |
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Long Island Weddings
Long Island's Largest Bridal Resource |
2kids2cats
My babies
Member since 6/05 5229 total posts
Name:
f
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Re: I am upset...:(
Well put!  For some it takes a day, for some it takes a year. All I can say for myself is that I've been on here a short amount of time and she is one of the two people that helped me most so far and I wish her all the best!
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| Posted 9/8/05 6:11 PM |
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DebG
Pick a cause & stand up for it
Member since 5/05 18602 total posts
Name:
The cure IS worse!
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Re: I am upset...:(
Posted by redstar
TTC for most of us who have been at it for awhile is not 'easy'. It's a crazy rollercoaster ride, filled with tons of emotion. (Add in a few fertility meds and those emotions can be even more intense).
I JUST said this to someone last night (almost word for word). So funny that our sentiments are sooo similiar.
I started posting less the last time this happened (right around the same time that we got the IF board) and now I imagine I will even curtail it more.
I am just sorry that anyone has to spend even one second feeling hurt. 
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| Posted 9/8/05 6:38 PM |
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MommyofG
just the girls
Member since 5/05 9461 total posts
Name:
Janice
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Re: I am upset...:(
Im upset too! I dont know exactly what was said to Kathy about her post, but I do know that this board is DIFFERENT now b/c of whoever was "offended" and its the "rules" that you CANT post anything about being PG on the TTC board! How ridiculous-
How dare some of you try to take away someones happiness- what if it was YOU! and especially someone who has HELPED us ALL a GREAT DEAL! Kathy I wish you all the BEST and I thank you for all the advice you have given me, and continue to give me!
Best to You - Turtle Power!!!!!!
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| Posted 9/8/05 6:41 PM |
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DebG
Pick a cause & stand up for it
Member since 5/05 18602 total posts
Name:
The cure IS worse!
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Re: I am upset...:(
Posted by girlygrl33
Im upset too! I dont know exactly what was said to Kathy about her post, but I do know that this board is DIFFERENT now b/c of whoever was "offended" and its the "rules" that you CANT post anything about being PG on the TTC board! How ridiculous-
How dare some of you try to take away someones happiness- what if it was YOU! and especially someone who has HELPED us ALL a GREAT DEAL! Kathy I wish you all the BEST and I thank you for all the advice you have given me, and continue to give me!
Best to You - Turtle Power!!!!!!
It's posts like these that make me angry...you are yelling at someone, who you don't know and who's side of the story you never heard.
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| Posted 9/8/05 6:44 PM |
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questions
LIF Zygote
Member since 6/05 4 total posts
Name:
Joan
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Re: I am upset...:(
post
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| Posted 9/8/05 6:51 PM |
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MommyofG
just the girls
Member since 5/05 9461 total posts
Name:
Janice
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Re: I am upset...:(
Posted by DebG
Posted by girlygrl33
Im upset too! I dont know exactly what was said to Kathy about her post, but I do know that this board is DIFFERENT now b/c of whoever was "offended" and its the "rules" that you CANT post anything about being PG on the TTC board! How ridiculous-
How dare some of you try to take away someones happiness- what if it was YOU! and especially someone who has HELPED us ALL a GREAT DEAL! Kathy I wish you all the BEST and I thank you for all the advice you have given me, and continue to give me!
Best to You - Turtle Power!!!!!!
It's posts like these that make me angry...you are yelling at someone, who you don't know and who's side of the story you never heard.
 - How do you know that???? I said I dont know exactly what was SAID- and yes I will speak OUT LOUD for who- not naming names- changed the aurora of the boards and got "offended" enough to say something- Trust me I know enough!
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| Posted 9/8/05 6:52 PM |
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DebG
Pick a cause & stand up for it
Member since 5/05 18602 total posts
Name:
The cure IS worse!
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Re: I am upset...:(
Posted by girlygrl33
Posted by DebG
Posted by girlygrl33
Im upset too! I dont know exactly what was said to Kathy about her post, but I do know that this board is DIFFERENT now b/c of whoever was "offended" and its the "rules" that you CANT post anything about being PG on the TTC board! How ridiculous-
How dare some of you try to take away someones happiness- what if it was YOU! and especially someone who has HELPED us ALL a GREAT DEAL! Kathy I wish you all the BEST and I thank you for all the advice you have given me, and continue to give me!
Best to You - Turtle Power!!!!!!
It's posts like these that make me angry...you are yelling at someone, who you don't know and who's side of the story you never heard.
- How do you know that???? I said I dont know exactly what was SAID- and yes I will speak OUT LOUD for who- not naming names- changed the aurora of the boards and got "offended" enough to say something- Trust me I know enough!
Really? What was said? How was it said? Was there a tone? Was it a demand? Was it a plea? Seems to me as bringing this fight out into the open is what changed the aurora of the boards. The post could have discretly been edited with a link to kathy's post on PG.
ETA
I don't even know why I am arguing on this one. Kathy is one of my closest friends on this board and I have told her quite a few times that I was ecstatic for her because she has worked hard for this.
Message edited 9/8/2005 7:06:03 PM.
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| Posted 9/8/05 7:02 PM |
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MommyofG
just the girls
Member since 5/05 9461 total posts
Name:
Janice
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Re: I am upset...:(
Posted by DebG
Posted by girlygrl33
Posted by DebG
Posted by girlygrl33
Im upset too! I dont know exactly what was said to Kathy about her post, but I do know that this board is DIFFERENT now b/c of whoever was "offended" and its the "rules" that you CANT post anything about being PG on the TTC board! How ridiculous-
How dare some of you try to take away someones happiness- what if it was YOU! and especially someone who has HELPED us ALL a GREAT DEAL! Kathy I wish you all the BEST and I thank you for all the advice you have given me, and continue to give me!
Best to You - Turtle Power!!!!!!
It's posts like these that make me angry...you are yelling at someone, who you don't know and who's side of the story you never heard.
- How do you know that???? I said I dont know exactly what was SAID- and yes I will speak OUT LOUD for who- not naming names- changed the aurora of the boards and got "offended" enough to say something- Trust me I know enough!
Really? What was said? How was it said? Was there a tone? Was it a demand? Was it a plea? Seems to me as bringing this fight out into the open is what changed the aurora of the boards, it could have discretly been deleted with a link to her post on PG.
????????? Since you didnt see it, how can you say anything? It SHOULDNT have been a discussion to begin with!
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| Posted 9/8/05 7:05 PM |
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DebG
Pick a cause & stand up for it
Member since 5/05 18602 total posts
Name:
The cure IS worse!
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Re: I am upset...:(
Posted by girlygrl33
Posted by DebG
Posted by girlygrl33
Posted by DebG
Posted by girlygrl33
Im upset too! I dont know exactly what was said to Kathy about her post, but I do know that this board is DIFFERENT now b/c of whoever was "offended" and its the "rules" that you CANT post anything about being PG on the TTC board! How ridiculous-
How dare some of you try to take away someones happiness- what if it was YOU! and especially someone who has HELPED us ALL a GREAT DEAL! Kathy I wish you all the BEST and I thank you for all the advice you have given me, and continue to give me!
Best to You - Turtle Power!!!!!!
It's posts like these that make me angry...you are yelling at someone, who you don't know and who's side of the story you never heard.
- How do you know that???? I said I dont know exactly what was SAID- and yes I will speak OUT LOUD for who- not naming names- changed the aurora of the boards and got "offended" enough to say something- Trust me I know enough!
Really? What was said? How was it said? Was there a tone? Was it a demand? Was it a plea? Seems to me as bringing this fight out into the open is what changed the aurora of the boards, it could have discretly been deleted with a link to her post on PG.
????????? Since you didnt see it, how can you say anything? It SHOULDNT have been a discussion to begin with!
Thank you for re-making my point. We have a bunch of people arguing about a conversation that none of us really knows.
It's silly really.
ETA
Sorry for the hijack.
Message edited 9/8/2005 7:10:57 PM.
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| Posted 9/8/05 7:07 PM |
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MommyofG
just the girls
Member since 5/05 9461 total posts
Name:
Janice
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Re: I am upset...:(
Posted by DebG
Posted by girlygrl33
Posted by DebG
Posted by girlygrl33
Posted by DebG
Posted by girlygrl33
Im upset too! I dont know exactly what was said to Kathy about her post, but I do know that this board is DIFFERENT now b/c of whoever was "offended" and its the "rules" that you CANT post anything about being PG on the TTC board! How ridiculous-
How dare some of you try to take away someones happiness- what if it was YOU! and especially someone who has HELPED us ALL a GREAT DEAL! Kathy I wish you all the BEST and I thank you for all the advice you have given me, and continue to give me!
Best to You - Turtle Power!!!!!!
It's posts like these that make me angry...you are yelling at someone, who you don't know and who's side of the story you never heard.
- How do you know that???? I said I dont know exactly what was SAID- and yes I will speak OUT LOUD for who- not naming names- changed the aurora of the boards and got "offended" enough to say something- Trust me I know enough!
Really? What was said? How was it said? Was there a tone? Was it a demand? Was it a plea? Seems to me as bringing this fight out into the open is what changed the aurora of the boards, it could have discretly been deleted with a link to her post on PG.
????????? Since you didnt see it, how can you say anything? It SHOULDNT have been a discussion to begin with!
Thank you for re-making my point. We have a bunch of people arguing about a conversation that none of really knows.
It's silly really.
Um some of us did see it and hear about it through FM and the posts- I was saying how can you make a comment about something you didnt see- as YOU said on the other post, but yet you are happy for Kathy but agree with the "offended" ones that she shouldnt have posted pics of her sono when WE asked her too?????????????? 
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| Posted 9/8/05 7:11 PM |
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DebG
Pick a cause & stand up for it
Member since 5/05 18602 total posts
Name:
The cure IS worse!
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Re: I am upset...:(
yes, I am saying I CAN see both sides of this.
Can people not understand more than one stance?
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| Posted 9/8/05 7:15 PM |
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MommyofG
just the girls
Member since 5/05 9461 total posts
Name:
Janice
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Re: I am upset...:(
Posted by DebG
yes, I am saying I CAN see both sides of this.
Can people not understand more than one stance?
See this is the PROBLEM- WHAT STANCE???????? We asked her to post pics of her sono- if you dont want to see a certain post - dont open it-
edited to say- why are some people so selfish! we are a FAMILY on here- we have been supporting eachother - so now the next one to get a BFP cant share on here? and if someone asks for a pic we have to tip toe and be worried??????? what is happenning here?"??????
Message edited 9/8/2005 7:21:26 PM.
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| Posted 9/8/05 7:17 PM |
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redstar
Delay is not denial
Member since 5/05 2220 total posts
Name:
Michelle
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Re: I am upset...:(
Ok I wrote this post not to have this become an argument. I wrote this post because someone who contributes to this board so very much has been hurt. She was truly happy for Kathy as I believe each and everyone of us are!
I don't think...anyone's feeling are ridiculous ! They are feelings !!! We should never be ashamed for how we feel. I don't think we should judge anyone here. This is a support board, we need to stick together. The more knowledge and guidance we obtain the more successful I pray we become.
I also can relate to both sides of this just like Deb....I pray that everyone feels welcome here. It's helped me so very much and I can only pray that others feel serenity from this board and not distress. We have enough of that !!!!
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| Posted 9/8/05 7:24 PM |
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DebG
Pick a cause & stand up for it
Member since 5/05 18602 total posts
Name:
The cure IS worse!
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Re: I am upset...:(
Posted by girlygrl33
Posted by DebG
yes, I am saying I CAN see both sides of this.
Can people not understand more than one stance?
See this is the PROBLEM- WHAT STANCE???????? We asked her to post pics of her sono- if you dont want to see a certain post - dont open it-
edited to say- why are some people so selfish! we are a FAMILY on here- we have been supporting eachother - so now the next one to get a BFP cant share on here? and if someone asks for a pic we have to tip toe and be worried??????? what is happenning here?"??????
I don't know, all I do know is that this place is NOT supporting one another...its supporting a select few. If we were family, even if we did not understand why someone was hurt or in pain, we would be there for them too instead of chastising them.
I think I am with someone else and will now curtail my posting here.
BD to all.
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| Posted 9/8/05 7:26 PM |
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MommyofG
just the girls
Member since 5/05 9461 total posts
Name:
Janice
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Re: I am upset...:(
Posted by DebG
Posted by girlygrl33
Posted by DebG
yes, I am saying I CAN see both sides of this.
Can people not understand more than one stance?
See this is the PROBLEM- WHAT STANCE???????? We asked her to post pics of her sono- if you dont want to see a certain post - dont open it-
edited to say- why are some people so selfish! we are a FAMILY on here- we have been supporting eachother - so now the next one to get a BFP cant share on here? and if someone asks for a pic we have to tip toe and be worried??????? what is happenning here?"??????
I don't know, all I do know is that this place is NOT supporting one another...its supporting a select few. If we were family, even if we did not understand why someone was hurt or in pain, we would be there for them too instead of chastising them.
I think I am with someone else and will now curtail my posting here.
BD to all.
I dont know and dont want to argue anymore about this either, I thought we all supported one another, until all H*ll broke loose over a thread, and a thread we had asked for, many of us wished Kathy well for her sono and asked her to posts pics when she got back. Its not like some stranger came on here and starting posting her sono pics on the TTC board. Maybe some people are supporting a select few, but I know I support all of us- just like I supported you on the PG with the bad news- again Im sorry about that. I just dont think it was right for someone to go out of their way to make Kathy feel bad.
edited to say PG board
Message edited 9/8/2005 7:45:00 PM.
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| Posted 9/8/05 7:43 PM |
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LuvMy2Girls
@>---------
Member since 5/05 11165 total posts
Name:
Mommy
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Re: I am upset...:(
This is getting a tad bit out of hand now. Redstar-michelle did not post this topic for drama to start.
It's truly sad that this happening here. TTC is a sensitive subject, every aspect of it. NO ONE SHOULD feel they can't post something here. Everything we talk about here is about support, knowledge, respect, and just plain friendship. Sometimes it seems jealousy rears it's ugly head...
We are all obviously TTC cause we feel we are at the point in our lives where we want to start a family. All of us have let perfect strangers into a part of our lives that our parents/siblings/best friends do not even know about.
Deb-please don't leave the TTC boards because of this, and I don't think Kathy should either.
This is truly getting out of hand. What's next? Rules on when a new TTC'er gets to post a bfp? Am I not allowed to post here now since i am pg too?
Michelle-your hijaccked post was well said, you have been nothing but a friend to me, getting me through the worst low of my life. it is truly upsetting to see all the TTC'ers fighting.
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| Posted 9/8/05 7:59 PM |
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MrsJ
I love my Katie Bug
Member since 5/05 11357 total posts
Name:
Kathy
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Re: I am upset...:(
I wasn't going to respond to this but I changed my mind.
First off, whoever "Questions" is, please use your real name and stop hiding. Also, please stop trying to twist things around and pulling up old post on LIW - which, by the way, if you read them from start to finish you would realize that there was no bashing on my part and has nothing to do with this.
Second, please please do not harass Lauren. She had nothing to do with my reason for deleting my post. She happened to be the first person to respond ...but she was not the reason I deleted it.
I know some of you disagree with things she and others have said, and it's OK to disagree. And thank you so much for sticking up for me and making me feel less upset about the whole thing. I appreciate all of you and everything you said.
The ONLY REASON that I posted pictures of my sonogram is becuase I WAS ASKED TO. I hope that who ever reads this understands this. This isnt an issue of me coming to the TTC board and rubbing my pregnancy in your faces. I came to the TTC board and responded to questions directed at me specifically about my doctor's appointment and sonongram. For those of you who have followed my story you know that I have had FOUR early miscarriages and the people asking me about my appointment were concerned for me and the baby, they know what I've been through and care about me. I wasnt over here to upset or offend anyone. WHich is why I started posting under "Incognito" in the first place.
Unfortunatly you're not going to get along with everyone all of the time and in life people disappoint you sometimes. Such is life.
It's not the end of the world and I really hope that it doesnt cause damage to this board and the friendships formed here. This board is way to important and too valuable to let that happen. If it wasn't for this board I wouldnt know half of what I know and I would have missed out on getting to know so many girls.. Not to mention I would have missed out on a lot of much needed support.
Kathy
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| Posted 9/8/05 9:02 PM |
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rose825
Best Friends
Member since 6/05 10228 total posts
Name:
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Re: I am upset...:(
Kathy, I am glad you decided to reply. This was very well said and I dont think there is anything else that needs to be said on this topic.
Now, I wish you a very happy and healthy 9 months.
Baby dust to ALL of use here. I look forward to reading about many more BFP's right here on the TTC board. Don't we all?
Of course, I am hoping one will be me...
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| Posted 9/8/05 9:26 PM |
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NS1976
My princess!
Member since 5/05 6548 total posts
Name:
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Re: I am upset...:(
I am not taking sides, I dont want to take sides especially when it comes to this precious board. This board and ALL the women on it have meant so much to me. Even people I have never "directly" spoken to, have a special place in my heart. I have received such wonderful support, advice and just a shoulder to lean on throughout this whole process from so many of you. Hopefully I in some way have impacted at least one of your lives as well.
That being said...we are all on here for the same ultimate reason. And deep down inside, even though our hearts are filled with love and excitement for each and every BFP..I am sure we all carry a twinge of jealousy..not coming from a place filled with anger and dissappointment but coming from the same place that we yearn to be parents from. The place in our hearts where our normal human reaction is "why cant this be me?". But then that feeling subsides and I know, at least for me personally, we are truly delighted for that person who's time has come. In my opinion, I think I would be more upset if one of us were to get pregnant and never announce or discuss it on the ttc board because then I would literally feel "used" in a way. Kind of like, we were good enough to share the ttc part but not good enough to share the rest of the experience in a way.
I may be rambling here but I just feel such a special connection with all of the ladies on here and infertility. Even if I dont respond as much as some others, I feel like we have been a support system for each other in one way or another. I cant deny the fact that when someone gets that BFP and announces it, that I dont secretly wonder why isnt that me...but in no way does that lessen my feelings of happiness for them. I guess I believe that what goes around, comes around, in both good and bad situations and I know deep in my heart that we will all have our dreams at some point.
Good luck to all those who are actively ttc, to those who are just thinking about it, to those who have gone through miscarriages and the like, to those who are exploring other options and routes and to those who have conquered their dream. I am happy for you all and love sharing the unique journey with each and every one of you!
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| Posted 9/8/05 10:11 PM |
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redstar
Delay is not denial
Member since 5/05 2220 total posts
Name:
Michelle
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Re: I am upset...:(
Nycchic,...I think that what you wrote was wonderful.
However, don't feel cheated, if someone doesn't choose to announce their bfp on this board. Sometimes, we can't even tell our own mothers. We all have decisions to make when ttc, some of which are personal choices that help us get through.
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| Posted 9/8/05 10:16 PM |
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CookiePuss
Cake from Outer Space!
Member since 5/05 14021 total posts
Name:
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Re: I am upset...:(
Posted by nycchic24
I am not taking sides, I dont want to take sides especially when it comes to this precious board. This board and ALL the women on it have meant so much to me. Even people I have never "directly" spoken to, have a special place in my heart. I have received such wonderful support, advice and just a shoulder to lean on throughout this whole process from so many of you. Hopefully I in some way have impacted at least one of your lives as well.
That being said...we are all on here for the same ultimate reason. And deep down inside, even though our hearts are filled with love and excitement for each and every BFP..I am sure we all carry a twinge of jealousy..not coming from a place filled with anger and dissappointment but coming from the same place that we yearn to be parents from. The place in our hearts where our normal human reaction is "why cant this be me?". But then that feeling subsides and I know, at least for me personally, we are truly delighted for that person who's time has come. In my opinion, I think I would be more upset if one of us were to get pregnant and never announce or discuss it on the ttc board because then I would literally feel "used" in a way. Kind of like, we were good enough to share the ttc part but not good enough to share the rest of the experience in a way.
I may be rambling here but I just feel such a special connection with all of the ladies on here and infertility. Even if I dont respond as much as some others, I feel like we have been a support system for each other in one way or another. I cant deny the fact that when someone gets that BFP and announces it, that I dont secretly wonder why isnt that me...but in no way does that lessen my feelings of happiness for them. I guess I believe that what goes around, comes around, in both good and bad situations and I know deep in my heart that we will all have our dreams at some point.
Good luck to all those who are actively ttc, to those who are just thinking about it, to those who have gone through miscarriages and the like, to those who are exploring other options and routes and to those who have conquered their dream. I am happy for you all and love sharing the unique journey with each and every one of you!
Very well said! Feelings get hurt in the world and that's okay. It's a part of life. We are all here for support and to learn. The situation was handled by those involved in a very mature way. I'm sure it was never anyone's intention to hurt someone or upset them.
I think we should all start humming the Coke song..."I'd Like to Buy The World a Coke..."
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| Posted 9/8/05 10:29 PM |
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dm24angel
Happiness
Member since 5/05 34581 total posts
Name:
Donna
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Re: I am upset...:(
I tried to stay away from this thread because it was starting to get a little heated, but it seems like now we are all once again on the same page....and in support of ALL my friends, I wanted to say That I HATED seeing anyone at all on here , past or present TTC'er hurt in any way.
I was one of those of who told Kathy to POST her sono....I actually told her I thought you all would get a kick out of the fact her little one looks like a turtle, and that joke is obviously more appropriate HERE then on the PG board.
Now do I understand that some people on here TTC might get upset at Sono pics, and avatars etc...sure, of course and I 100% support their feelings, but I think if they feel that way they should approach the person, be it Kathy or anyone and discuss it, so it can be resolved as its a sensitive matter.
I didnt think that anyone came out and told Kathy she was wrong, or to remove it....I think that some of you got defensive that one person, or a few might have done that and been mean about it and felt you had to stick up for Kathy, and then in turn others got defense because they could at the least understand how someone might feel a certain way and wanted to make sure everyone was defended........thats how I saw things on the outside looking in at this.
My bottom line is I love Kathy, we are freinds in real life and I dont want to see her stop posting her early progress on here, but I would be very sensitive to anyone who felt sad because of it....
I dont think ANYONE meant to hurt anyone, and thats what we should take from this....
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| Posted 9/9/05 7:40 AM |
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DRMom
Two in Blue
Member since 5/05 20223 total posts
Name:
Melissa
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Re: I am upset...:(
Hi I am mostly a lurker on here and TTC. I post now and again. I have not been on in a couple of days and I skimmed through a lot of these posts. I think everyone needs to enter the real world. If you think you will never feel jealousy or envy for someone elses good fortune you are sadly mistaken. That is part of the human condition. Realize that the problem is within you not about Kathy's post. No offense to anyone. Just my opinion.
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| Posted 9/9/05 10:46 AM |
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leighla
Support Cancer Research
Member since 5/05 16353 total posts
Name:
Lauren
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Re: I am upset...:(
Since I'm part of this whole issue I feel I should respond.
I sent an FM to a couple of my closer friends on the boards letting them know that I have decided not to post here anymore. Let me explain why:
Just to be clear, I did NOT ask Kathy to pull down her posts, but I understood the view of the people who did ask and tried to point out both sides to be fair.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and while I don't always agree with some people's views, I have never intentionally set out to hurt anyone's feelings when they have voiced an opposing view.
When I voiced my opinion about Kathy's posts, it was not only implied that I was emotionally unstable, jealous and a liar but I had more than one FM from people making personal attacks at me. Not general, even-toned comments, but personal attacks.
Including one delightful poster who told me that they hope I never get a BFP because I don't deserve to be a mom.
While I know that a couple bad apples are not representative of the whole board of otherwise supportive wonderful girls, the whole experience has left me drained and upset.
For my own health and sanity I have decided that this board is doing me more harm than good right now.
Maybe I will be back someday when it's not so raw and painful to see some of those people who FM'd me posting. But for now I'm signing off to get some much needed perspective and concentrate on more positive things.
Hopefully this teaches all of us a lesson about tolerance for other views and the dangers of misconstruing posts. I know it's taught me some things.
I wish all of you much luck and baby dust!! May you get quick BFPs and have happy healthy pregnancies.
And I hope there are more threads like Deb's lovey-dovey one and less like this one.
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| Posted 9/9/05 11:09 AM |
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