Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

Has me feeling really confused. And please excuse me for using this board to let my feelings out, but it does pertain to Ava on many levels, so I felt this was the best place to do it.
Anyone who knows me knows how completely unreligious I am. I was raised Catholic, but I was asked the leave my church at 13 when I refused to make a poster supporting the church's pro-life campaign. My mother was the president of a women's group at the time and took my sister and I on a march on Washington to support a woman's right to choose, and she spent a long time discussing with us the differences between being pro-choice and pro-life, then let us make our own decision. Anyway, moving more towards the point of this, I was asked to leave the church because I told them that I was pro-choice. The following year, my mother paid a large donation to the church so I could make my confirmation just incase I decided to get married in a church someday. She wanted me to have the choice to be Catholic or not.
Fast forward to my wedding. I wanted desperately to have my wedding ceremony be non-religious, but to appease my grandmother, we decided to get married in the church. After years of not really being Catholic, JT and I decided that when we had Ava, we would finally stop the nonsense and not have her christened because neither of us consider ourselves to be Catholic. I don't ever plan on going to church again, and if asked, I say I do not have a religion. I'm not denying there is a God, I just don't really think about it at all. I wish I did have a religion I believed in and could be a part of, but I don't, and that's ok.
But here comes the part that is driving me nuts. It just doesn't feel right to be celebrating Christmas when I really think about it. I feel like, why am I going nuts over Christmas if I don't even believe in the religion? I know that the way my family celebrates Christmas is more of a celebration of family than anything else, but then, that's not really Christmas, is it? We have zero tie to religion on the holiday. None. Not a single thing that has to do with Jesus. No church, no songs about Jesus, no prayers. Nothing. Yet, I still celebrate it, and I feel like I'm setting Ava up for a lifetime of meaningless, empty "holidays". I feel torn because they're my family's way of celebrating in general, so do I deny her of that, even though my family all celebrates it, or do I continue on the tradition with no connection to religion? I don't know. It just sits heavy on my mind this time of year. As I'm out shopping and wrapping presents, I have to stop and ask myself, what for?
Maybe it doesn't matter what we celebrate. Maybe it's just good enough that we celebrate each other, but after reading some responses to the picture with Santa thread, and the beautiful, heartfelt things that some of the other moms wrote about why they will not be bringing their jewish children for pictures with Santa, it just has me thinking, yet again, of what an empty "holiday" this really is for me. It just really bothers me. And I really needed to get that out. I'm sorry if it was on the wrong board, but thanks for reading if you've gotten this far.

Message edited 11/21/2007 9:26:12 PM.

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

Rachel - I want to applaud you for thinking about it - and posting about it.

Unfortunately I think a lot of people don't think about these important things enough - or as deeply as you have.

You have to do what YOU are comfortable with. To you if Christmas is about family and certain traditions and that is what you are comfy with - then why change it?

This is an even deeper question but have you thought that maybe there is another religion out there for you? Or is it something you don't feel you are missing or that Ava would miss?

I hope you don't mind me asking.

Also - maybe as an adult you could rediscover your religion? Even though I have a STRONG jewish identity, I am rediscovering the actual religion after years of traditional holidays.

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

Rachel, Honestly...I think how you celebrate it is what makes the holiday most important. Not to follow in others beliefs just bc its what the "Norm" is. I think the fact that on Christmas day you get together and celebrate as a family is what matters. I dont think its about whether Gillian goes on Santas lap or doesnt ...
Personally, I wanted to hear others opinions and I did. Maybe I will change, maybe I wont but that is why you pose questions. I think whatever you do has to feel right to you and what you want for your family. If it doesnt then its wrong.

Message edited 11/21/2007 9:31:01 PM.

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

Thanks for responding girls. I think my main issue is that on many levels, it feels completely "right" to be celebrating Christmas the way we do, with no religious connection, because that's what my family does and always has. On the other hand, now that we do have a child, I wonder if having her celebrate Christmas, but with no intentions of ever giving her a religious education as a Catholic, is the right thing to do. For me, yes, it's right because it's tradition, and because at least I was raised Catholic, so there's some sense to it. For her, what sense is there to celebrate holidays that she'll have no religious connection to? See my dilema?
As for other religions, I think that the problem is that I have read a lot about various religions and have friends of various backgrounds, and it's hard to find something that I really do believe in. It's like, if I could make my own religion that pieced together the bits and pieces of other religions that appealed to me, then I'd be happy. Does that make sense?
Maybe I should just start my own religion Just kidding, just kidding. But seriously, I just have a hard time believing in anything other than what I can really stand behind. It's not like I can say, "Ok, I agree with most of this religion, so I'll just let the other things that I don't agree with go." I truly think that I'm just not meant to have a religion. So I guess I do believe in something, it's more vague than most people. Geez, I'm probably not making sense.

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

i just found this for you
which religion are you

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

you are making sense...

Like I said - I have a strong Jewish background...but I believe that religion starts at home. Home is my temple. Home is where I answer to g-d. I don't really believe in the whole organized religion thing. I don't go to services, but I consider myself just as religious as someone who does.

I believe in g-d, I try to be a good person, I am raising a strong jewish family, I go to Israel, etc...I do my part to check the things off my list that I consider being a good jewish person entails...sometimes that involves g-d, sometimes it doesnt.

Sometimes..it is all about tradition (didnt you ever see Fiddler???)

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

I love you Rach - really, I do. Your realness and honesty is so admirable.

I completely understand where you are coming from - I should tell you the story behind my wedding. What the catholic church did to me and said to me was beyond appalling and from that moment on I vowed to never step foot in there again.

I am now Lutheran - they're just more lax and I'm more comfortable with it. Plus the church is small and definitely more modern with their views. It feels more "homey" to me.

I think Christmas for ME is more about family and the fun we have spending time together. Its ALWAYS a blast every year and to me that is what makes Christmas special.

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

Rachel, I am pretty much in the same boat as you. I was raised catholic up until my mom died when I was 8. Then my father stopped taking me and my brothers to church and we never made our confirmations etc. I have not stepped foot inside a church since the day of my mother's funeral. Maybe here or there for a wedding or two. So when asked, I say I am catholic but a very non practicing one. My DH is jewish, we were married at our hall by a Rabbi, basically b/c I didnt feel it was necessary to pay a priest also. It meant a lot to DH's mother and since my mother was not there to BE UPSET I just said "F" it. But DH is not a practicing Jew either. Never made bar mitzpha never went to temple etc. Growing up he celebrated both Hanukah and Christmas b/c my FIL is catholic. But the real reason he celebrated Christmas was b/c my MIL liked the whole look of christmas decorations with the sparkling lights etc. Even though she is Jewish.

So basically my son is "nothing." Never was baptized or had a bris. I will teach him what I know of the catholic religion and DH will teach him what he knows of Judeism. I light a menorah on hanukah out of respect for DH and my MIL. And I do Christmas but not for any religious reasons either. I am looking at it as a celebration of family. I do believe in God, heaven, spirits and life after death. I believe it because I never would have survived this long if I didnt believe my mother was always with me. I feel her presence more often than not. And sometimes I think maybe I am disappointing my mother by not being so religious. Perhaps one day that will change. But for now, for this Christmas, I am just celebrating my family and close friends and all the joy the season has to offer.

I think in your case you need to do what you feel is right. Maybe one day it will change for you too. But for now, just celebrate your DH and beautiful daughter if that's how your feeling!!! They alone are reason enuf!

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

I'm an atheist and we celebrate the holidays...when you look at the historical background, it's not really Christian at all. 12/25 was thought to be the shortest day of the year (off when they converted calendars) and it was celebrated as a celebration of spring to come - every day gets longer -- many cultures/religions have a winter holiday focused around "light"

The Catholic Church moved Jesus' birthdate to 12/25 to convert the pagens, who did not want to give up their celebration. (most religious scholars put his birth date in September)

In fact many things that are part of the "Christmas" celebration are really from the "Yule" celebration. the evergreen tree, holly, eating ham, etc

No reason to stop your celebrations or feel guilty about it.

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

I was raised Catholic too, but do not agree with many of the beliefs and teachings.

I do believe that there is a God, but I feel that "God" does not judge or have rules the way that the Catholic Religion does. I decided that I no longer wanted to practice as a teenager. I didn't agree with any religion that opposes a womans right to choose, was against birth control and felt that a person with a different sexual orientation was committing a sin.

I had Ava Baptised, to make my parents and in-laws happy. It meant nothing to me spiritually.

As far as religion goes, I have already read Ava a Christmas book and a Hannakua book. I plan on telling her about a lot of different religions, and maybe when she is older, she can make her own choice. But I will stress that NO religion should judge you or take away your rights.

As far as Christmas and Easter goes, in our house we are strictly celebrating Santa, the Easter Bunny and FAMILY!!

Message edited 11/21/2007 10:00:05 PM.

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

I'm in the same boat as well. When DH & I got married, I asked that the ceremony not be too religious. That led to our conversation of our beliefs. He said he believed in his ancestors & what they believed. He believed in the 10 commandments & the basics.

To have my son in Catholic school for a brief time & having him spout God's rules to me was disturbing on so many levels. While I love my religion, the perversions of doctrine from those in the Catholic church left me adrift.

For me, the Christian holidays I celebrate have to do with my childhood & keeping that spirit alive. For me, I celebrate my family and the spirit of the season. To paraphrase the NY Sun's editorial ...I believe that Christmas can be a magical time for many reasons. I believe in the spirit of Christmas. I believe that children are magical. I celebrate if for them. When asked about Jesus, I'll recount the stories I was told.

I can believe in my religion but not the institution - just as I believe in my country but not the administration.

My friend & I used to joke that we were starting our own church. It's called the Church of the Forest. The only requirement is that you had to believe in yourself. You're welcome to join.

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

Can I just say that I absolutely love you girls? I feel so grateful that I am able to come here and tell you all exactly how I feel and get that support. I really enjoyed reading everyone's responses. Sometimes I feel so alone in my experiences with religion, and it's so nice to see that I'm not the only one

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

Oh trust me, I have many of the same quandries now that I have my own daughter.

I was raised in a fairly religious home - schul three times a week, observed shabbat, went to hebrew school two times a week, the whole nine yards.

BUT, when I was 13, the day after my Bat Mitzvah, my parents sat me down and told me they are atheist but that they wanted to expose me to both the cultural AND religious aspects of judaism and that's why they had me so involved in everything, but at that point, at 13, it was my choice. So, at that point, I decided for myself that, while I wholly accept my heritage and the rich cultural traditions that are so intertwined with judaism, I wholly rejected anything religious.

So, here I am, an atheist, who has a deep, deep understanding, appreciation and love for my culture and tradition, but have no ties whatsoever to the religious aspects of it.

I feel like, with Alex, I'm always skirting that fine line between each extreme. She's in daycare at a conservative synogogue, so I'm worried about her exposure to too much of the religious aspects of judaism - I know deep in my heart she will learn from me and my husband all she needs to know about being a good person, without needing religion.

But, by the same token, I feel like I'm stealing from her an element that was given to me - CHOICE. While I absolutely shower her with tradition and culture, I don't expose her to anything religious, so that, unlike me, when she's 13, she won't have the knowledge, background and information to make that choice for herself. I know this, but I have such an immense distaste for organized religion that I just can't bring myself to celebrate the religion in my home or at synogogue. I'm hoping the amount of exposure she gets in school will be enough.

I think my point is, you have to find a medium that you are comfortable with - for me it's a little easier because judaism, unlike other religions is so intertwined with the culture so it's very easy to absent from the religion while embracing the culture - but maybe you can do some of that for yourself? Don't feel guilty by separating the two and picking and choosing those "traditions" that you grew up with, that you want to pass on to Ava. Celebrating those moments that were passed down to you, doesn't necessarily mean you are embracing the religion. I think much of it really comes down to perspective, if that makes sense?

Message edited 11/21/2007 10:30:12 PM.

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

Rach,

I, too, applaud you for thinking of this.

DH and I, as an interfaith couple, thought long and hard about this before we even got engaged.

Like you, neither one of us practices the religion we were born into. While I was raised with religion and attended Catholic schools I have left the Church and its hierarchy for various reasons and will never go back. I also attended Catholic school through high school. DH had a bris and a bar mitzvah but I think it was largely to appease his grandparents. Funny thing is we are both very spiritual people and despite checking off different boxes on demographic forms, have identical beliefs when it comes to ethical and moral issues.

Like you, we struggled with what to do. We knew neither religion would be the official religion of our family and given our beliefs and the fact we don't practice we felt it completely hypocritical of us to get married in a official religious ceremony. We wanted something but didn't think converting to a third religion was really for us. We also didn't want to raise children with no religion either, maybe I should say, we wanted to provide them with a spiritual framework, practice several religious traditions from both sides to expose them to their family's religious roots but also teach them the commonality of all of the world's religions and at a later age let them decide. We do attend services at a Unitarian fellowship that welcomes people of all religious backgrounds, many who are interfaith couples and many who have left the religion they were born into. Without getting into all of the details as to why, we are very comfortable there. They also have an excellent religious education program that is more of a history class on the world's religions combined with a lot of community based volunteer projects which our DC's will attend.

Yes, I did take DC's to see Santa Claus but this Sunday (because many of DH's family are in town for the holidays) we will be celebrating an early Hanukkah and making latkes at the IL's house. Mostly because I feel these are the tradtions that are rooted in their family history. If my children are to know their ancestors through story then it's important for me to include their religious traditions as well.

That's just what works for us.
There are thousands out there who feel the same as you. Perhaps one day you will find a spiritual community you feel completely a part of.

BTW: I took the survey that was linked in a previous post. Despite 12 years of Catholic school the survey said I'm most likely a Deist with Judaism coming in a close second

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

TOTALLY understand. TOTALLY.

While I have some deep and intergrated spiritual beliefs, I am not so sure they are christian beliefs, yet I LOVE Christmas, and yet I feel like a hypocrite as its to be celebrated a Jesus Birthday.

What I do believe is that Jesus was a real man and it appears that he was a Good Holy man in whatever fashion....( the rest to be determined)...so I try to celebrate the Life of a good man, and the celebration of life in general....Make sense?

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

Well I can tell you I am the product of absolutely no religion. Never baptized no church except through my own exploration as a teenager. My father was raised Catholic my mother was raised Protestant and by the time they had me they had long abandoned both religions. I was never shunned from religion (as I mentioned above I have attended Catholic services and decided it wasn't for me)but never felt it was something that was missing from my life. But do to family traditions we celebrate Christmas in our own way despite all it's religious background. Christmas is special to me because of what symbolic meaning I have put into it and I hope to pass that on to DD.

Also wanted to add I don't consider myself an atheist. Right now if someone were to ask I guess I would say I was agnostic because I don't believe in one particular organized religion. So Rach when you start up your new religion give me a buzz I might be interested!

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

Wow - very interesting....

I want to respond to this, but I am so exhausted - and a bit tipsy - so hopefully this is coherent...

I was raised in a hypocritical "religious" Jewish family. I was a yeshiva girl, went to Israel, religious Jewish camps, everything...

I hated every minute of it. I felt all it was was angry people doing hypocritical things. Understand, this was my upbringing, and not a reflection of the religion. But because of my experiences, I turned my back to many aspects of Judaism.

I didnt purposely marry someone non-Jewish, but finding someone Jewish wasn't my main focus. Yes, I was on Jdate, and Match.com. I dated both... Angelo was the one I fell in love with.

But, I continued to wear a Jewish star, still say things in Yiddish, and identify as a Jewish woman.

But I also practice Buddhism, as does DH, who although was raised Catholic, doesn't follow any o fthat at all.

I realize now that I never believed in organized religion, but I believe whole heartedly in God. I always did. I believe that God exists completely and truly. Too many things happened in my life to not believe.

You do not need religion to be closer to God. In fact, I personally believe its a hindrance. It works for many people, it never worked for me. When I pray, I talk to God. I feel God in everything that I do.

That being said, when I was pregnant, DH and I knew we would never do anything religious. No brises, baptisms, bar mtzvas, etc.... BUT - we would teach him that God exists in everyone, and to bring as much kindness and purpose into everything he does. In order to do this, we need to model that for him.

I'm always going to talk about God to him. We will discuss the practical aspects of Buddhism (be kind to others, no malicious acts, etc)

But - we will also celebrate Hannukah because it's a lovely holiday and its a part of his heritage and its somehting I always had fond memories of. Christmas is a time when the family gets together, and although we have never mentioned Jesus on that day at all with DH's daughters, there is s feeling of togetherness. And we can still spread the word of kindenss to others, and joy to the world, as cliche as that may seem.

you can use these holidays to communicate what comes from your heart. You don't need religion as a platform to do that. Everything that religion tries to "teach" us already exists within us. We just forget because we get so removed from that knowledge. You can teach Ava about what the world needs - what she can bring to her community as she gets older. Helping the needy. Donating. Spending time with mommy and daddy under the Christams tree talking about how much you love each other...

You have already begun to think about this deeply, and its a wonderful thing to do. You will find an answer that you will feel good about.

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

Message edited 11/22/2007 7:36:49 AM.

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

My mom was raised Catholic and my father Protestant (although, after his father left when he was 7, he never went to church, so he hasn't actually been to church in about, uh, 56 years ) and they always felt that religon was forced upon them, so they didn't want to do that to my sister and I.

We were not baptized, christened or raised in any religion. When my sister was about 6, she said "I want to go to church on Sunday like everyone else" and my parents said "Sure Caroline, but you have to get up early on Sunday to do it" so she vetoed that idea My parents respect whatever choices we want to make concerning religion.

We ALWAYS celebrated Christmas. We obviously know the religious reasons for the day, but at the same time, we celebrate family that day and happiness more than anything else.

DH wants to raise DS Catholic, and I told him I have no problem with it, but he has to be in charge of it, therefore, the kid isn't even CLOSE to being christened

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

Message edited 11/22/2007 8:48:01 AM.

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

Do you call your celebration Christmas? Why not just call it something else and celebrate family and all the good things you have in your life? I know for me if I was not a catholic I would not bring Kerri to see Santa Claus or participate in all the other "Christmas" things.....but I would take the day to appreciate everything I have and get together with family.

Re: Well, all this Santa talk...LONG

As someone who does believe in the holiness of the holiday, here is another perspective: It seems like you want to keep the "fun" parts of the holiday and not the "hard" parts. You want to exchange presents and see Santa, but not believe that Jesus is God. I believe this is a bit hypocritical. And I understand that this is why you are re-thinking your traditions and I think that is admirable.