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Lillies
Grateful for my babies!
Member since 2/12 4571 total posts
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<3
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We just got some answers... (MF related)
Finally after 2 years of IF, we have found a culprit as to why I have been having all of my losses and why our ICSI failed so terribly. (In addition to my issues, of course)
My hubby's DNA frag test came back abnormal  his DNA part (DFI) was borderline abnormal, while his OSA was totally abnormal. This means he had very high amounts of free radicals in his sperm. Dr. T said this can totally account for out losses and fert problems. He does not know how it can effect our IVF success bc he thinks last cycles failure was partially a ****** protocol but said it def could hurt us.
So sad. At least it's not horrible but it's pretty bad. Finally I feel like we have answers as to why we lost so many babies.
Does anyone have experience with this?
Any ways to improve? He is immediately going on pycnogenol, melatonin and ubiquanol.
I highly recommend anyone with unexplained repeat loss or cycle failure to have this test.
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Posted 3/4/14 4:30 PM  |
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Long Island Weddings
Long Island's Largest Bridal Resource |
Hope2009
Thankful
Member since 1/09 4429 total posts
Name:
A
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
WOW, on top of everything else you need to deal with this? I'm so sorry, on the other hand it's good to know what the problem is, so that they can begin to address the issue.
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| Posted 3/4/14 5:03 PM |
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Lillies
Grateful for my babies!
Member since 2/12 4571 total posts
Name:
<3
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
Yes, exactly. It's not so terrible that we will need donor sperm yet and I doubt we will go that route.
I just wish we did this test to begin with instead of wasting time on IUI's. We have no success rate with those with this diagnosis. Part of my is relieved bc all my numbers came back low but not terrible so the REs couldn't figure out why we were having such a hard time.
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| Posted 3/4/14 5:13 PM |
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Michelle1110
My family is complete
Member since 1/12 2338 total posts
Name:
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
Posted by Lillies
Finally after 2 years of IF, we have found a culprit as to why I have been having all of my losses and why our ICSI failed so terribly. (In addition to my issues, of course)
My hubby's DNA frag test came back abnormal his DNA part (DFI) was borderline abnormal, while his OSA was totally abnormal. This means he had very high amounts of free radicals in his sperm. Dr. T said this can totally account for out losses and fert problems. He does not know how it can effect our IVF success bc he thinks last cycles failure was partially a ****** protocol but said it def could hurt us.
So sad. At least it's not horrible but it's pretty bad. Finally I feel like we have answers as to why we lost so many babies.
Does anyone have experience with this?
Any ways to improve? He is immediately going on pycnogenol, melatonin and ubiquanol.
I highly recommend anyone with unexplained repeat loss or cycle failure to have this test.
I've been saying on this board for awhile for people to get this test!!!!
I'm so sorry it came back abnormal. This makes so much sense. Is he going to go back to the urologist?
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| Posted 3/4/14 5:52 PM |
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Lillies
Grateful for my babies!
Member since 2/12 4571 total posts
Name:
<3
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
Posted by Michelle1110
Posted by Lillies
Finally after 2 years of IF, we have found a culprit as to why I have been having all of my losses and why our ICSI failed so terribly. (In addition to my issues, of course)
My hubby's DNA frag test came back abnormal his DNA part (DFI) was borderline abnormal, while his OSA was totally abnormal. This means he had very high amounts of free radicals in his sperm. Dr. T said this can totally account for out losses and fert problems. He does not know how it can effect our IVF success bc he thinks last cycles failure was partially a ****** protocol but said it def could hurt us.
So sad. At least it's not horrible but it's pretty bad. Finally I feel like we have answers as to why we lost so many babies.
Does anyone have experience with this?
Any ways to improve? He is immediately going on pycnogenol, melatonin and ubiquanol.
I highly recommend anyone with unexplained repeat loss or cycle failure to have this test.
I've been saying on this board for awhile for people to get this test!!!!
I'm so sorry it came back abnormal. This makes so much sense. Is he going to go back to the urologist?
You are the one who inspired me to ask my new RE about it!! So happy I did.
Yes, he is seeing a new urologist that comes very highly recommended by our new RE. He has seen two others with no reasoning why his free radicals are so high. He has a very clean GF diet, thin, no smoking or drinking. He did smoke and drink heavily until he turned 30 so he's wondering if it's that.
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| Posted 3/4/14 5:57 PM |
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ANewDayHasCome
Love multiplies, not divides
Member since 11/12 14481 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
Happy you have some answers. I hope his meds do the trick.
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| Posted 3/4/14 6:12 PM |
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babydreams21
LIF Adult
Member since 12/12 3656 total posts
Name:
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We just got some answers... (MF related)
Glad you have some answers but sorry about the news. What did Dr. T suggest? Will you still be able to cycle?
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| Posted 3/4/14 6:39 PM |
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Lillies
Grateful for my babies!
Member since 2/12 4571 total posts
Name:
<3
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
Posted by babydreams21
Glad you have some answers but sorry about the news. What did Dr. T suggest? Will you still be able to cycle?
Yep, still cycling. IVF is our best chance at this point.
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| Posted 3/4/14 6:41 PM |
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babydreams21
LIF Adult
Member since 12/12 3656 total posts
Name:
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
Posted by Lillies
Posted by babydreams21
Glad you have some answers but sorry about the news. What did Dr. T suggest? Will you still be able to cycle?
Yep, still cycling. IVF is our best chance at this point.
Yeah definitely. Is he gonna have your DH take anything? My DH started taking COQ10 in January just because I'm taking it. Dr. T said that was good. What about doing PICSI? Dr. T said we can do PICSI for $1000, and some people choose not to do the DNA FRAG and go straight to PICSI. He said if something came back from the DNA Frag he would suggest that.
Did your DH ever have an issue with his SA?
Did he do the DNA Frag in office? Is it though reprosource?
Now Jessica is saying we need 2 SAs. Dr. T said DHs SA was good and we wouldn't get ICSI covered. Now Jessica emailed we need those and then GHI can deny it and then we get the discount from SIRM. UHHHH I can't deal! I was looking into DH doing it at Quest but I don't even know if they do that.
I hope your cycle goes well.
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| Posted 3/4/14 6:55 PM |
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Lillies
Grateful for my babies!
Member since 2/12 4571 total posts
Name:
<3
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
I don't think he ever mentioned picsi but I'll ask.
Just regular supplements for free radicals. We are looking online for some.
As for GHI, they are usually to the date with their SA's and our last bad ones were jan and feb so we just missed the cut off for new SA's. You are probably over the year time frame and Jessica has no choice but to get new ones. For our next IVF, we will need new SA's. She did warn us that if it comes back normal, our ICSI would be gone so I'm thankful she rushed and got the preauth in right after my appointment.
They do give great discounts to GHI patients, don't worry.
He will have to do the SA's there. DH did his frag there and they were awesome about it. He went in before 8am and was in and out within 10 minutes no wait.
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| Posted 3/4/14 7:09 PM |
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Michelle1110
My family is complete
Member since 1/12 2338 total posts
Name:
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We just got some answers... (MF related)
Good I'm glad I pushed you that way! You have a plan now which is great.
D - DH did sperm frag test at home. It was in a special container n we fed exed it back to co.
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| Posted 3/4/14 7:52 PM |
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babydreams21
LIF Adult
Member since 12/12 3656 total posts
Name:
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
Posted by Lillies
I don't think he ever mentioned picsi but I'll ask.
Just regular supplements for free radicals. We are looking online for some.
As for GHI, they are usually to the date with their SA's and our last bad ones were jan and feb so we just missed the cut off for new SA's. You are probably over the year time frame and Jessica has no choice but to get new ones. For our next IVF, we will need new SA's. She did warn us that if it comes back normal, our ICSI would be gone so I'm thankful she rushed and got the preauth in right after my appointment.
They do give great discounts to GHI patients, don't worry.
He will have to do the SA's there. DH did his frag there and they were awesome about it. He went in before 8am and was in and out within 10 minutes no wait.
Got it. DH never had a bad one so we know ICSI won't be covered. His was over a year ago but he always had good numbers for IUIs and IVFs. So since I know it won't be covered I don't wanna make DH go intot eh city and take off work. I hope they still give me the discount without the SAs. How much did the frag cost? Dr. T said he doesn't think DH is the problem....most likely all me. GREAT! If they do them on Saturdays then we could get into the city.
Definitely ask about PICSI. He explained it all to me and it seemed worth it for MFI. I think its more selective as to which sperm they pick.
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| Posted 3/4/14 7:55 PM |
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Michelle1110
My family is complete
Member since 1/12 2338 total posts
Name:
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
Posted by babydreams21
Posted by Lillies
I don't think he ever mentioned picsi but I'll ask.
Just regular supplements for free radicals. We are looking online for some.
As for GHI, they are usually to the date with their SA's and our last bad ones were jan and feb so we just missed the cut off for new SA's. You are probably over the year time frame and Jessica has no choice but to get new ones. For our next IVF, we will need new SA's. She did warn us that if it comes back normal, our ICSI would be gone so I'm thankful she rushed and got the preauth in right after my appointment.
They do give great discounts to GHI patients, don't worry.
He will have to do the SA's there. DH did his frag there and they were awesome about it. He went in before 8am and was in and out within 10 minutes no wait.
Got it. DH never had a bad one so we know ICSI won't be covered. His was over a year ago but he always had good numbers for IUIs and IVFs. So since I know it won't be covered I don't wanna make DH go intot eh city and take off work. I hope they still give me the discount without the SAs. How much did the frag cost? Dr. T said he doesn't think DH is the problem....most likely all me. GREAT! If they do them on Saturdays then we could get into the city.
Definitely ask about PICSI. He explained it all to me and it seemed worth it for MFI. I think its more selective as to which sperm they pick.
GHI requires a SA within a certain time frame to qualify for Ivf - DH the problem or not
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| Posted 3/4/14 8:17 PM |
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Lillies
Grateful for my babies!
Member since 2/12 4571 total posts
Name:
<3
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
Posted by Michelle1110
Posted by babydreams21
Posted by Lillies
I don't think he ever mentioned picsi but I'll ask.
Just regular supplements for free radicals. We are looking online for some.
As for GHI, they are usually to the date with their SA's and our last bad ones were jan and feb so we just missed the cut off for new SA's. You are probably over the year time frame and Jessica has no choice but to get new ones. For our next IVF, we will need new SA's. She did warn us that if it comes back normal, our ICSI would be gone so I'm thankful she rushed and got the preauth in right after my appointment.
They do give great discounts to GHI patients, don't worry.
He will have to do the SA's there. DH did his frag there and they were awesome about it. He went in before 8am and was in and out within 10 minutes no wait.
Got it. DH never had a bad one so we know ICSI won't be covered. His was over a year ago but he always had good numbers for IUIs and IVFs. So since I know it won't be covered I don't wanna make DH go intot eh city and take off work. I hope they still give me the discount without the SAs. How much did the frag cost? Dr. T said he doesn't think DH is the problem....most likely all me. GREAT! If they do them on Saturdays then we could get into the city.
Definitely ask about PICSI. He explained it all to me and it seemed worth it for MFI. I think its more selective as to which sperm they pick.
GHI requires a SA within a certain time frame to qualify for Ivf - DH the problem or not
Exactly what I was going to type. They need it either way.
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| Posted 3/4/14 8:18 PM |
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babydreams21
LIF Adult
Member since 12/12 3656 total posts
Name:
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
Posted by Lillies
Posted by Michelle1110
Posted by babydreams21
Posted by Lillies
I don't think he ever mentioned picsi but I'll ask.
Just regular supplements for free radicals. We are looking online for some.
As for GHI, they are usually to the date with their SA's and our last bad ones were jan and feb so we just missed the cut off for new SA's. You are probably over the year time frame and Jessica has no choice but to get new ones. For our next IVF, we will need new SA's. She did warn us that if it comes back normal, our ICSI would be gone so I'm thankful she rushed and got the preauth in right after my appointment.
They do give great discounts to GHI patients, don't worry.
He will have to do the SA's there. DH did his frag there and they were awesome about it. He went in before 8am and was in and out within 10 minutes no wait.
Got it. DH never had a bad one so we know ICSI won't be covered. His was over a year ago but he always had good numbers for IUIs and IVFs. So since I know it won't be covered I don't wanna make DH go intot eh city and take off work. I hope they still give me the discount without the SAs. How much did the frag cost? Dr. T said he doesn't think DH is the problem....most likely all me. GREAT! If they do them on Saturdays then we could get into the city.
Definitely ask about PICSI. He explained it all to me and it seemed worth it for MFI. I think its more selective as to which sperm they pick.
GHI requires a SA within a certain time frame to qualify for Ivf - DH the problem or not
Exactly what I was going to type. They need it either way.
Got it. Thanks ladies. Maybe he will only have to do it once since it will probably come back fine. He only did a SA once with my former office bc they knew it wouldn't be covered.
I'm hoping he can do it at home and bring to Quest or SIRM allows for it to be done in office on a Saturday. Always something to worry about.
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| Posted 3/4/14 8:48 PM |
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ggt08
;)
Member since 5/05 5208 total posts
Name:
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We just got some answers... (MF related)
At least you got more info and more pieces to the puzzle. Thinking of you.
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| Posted 3/4/14 9:19 PM |
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babyfever24
LIF Adult
Member since 1/11 3340 total posts
Name:
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
Sucks. But I'm glad you have some answers. RSNY was telling me DH had normal sperm. I also found out otherwise.
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| Posted 3/4/14 9:20 PM |
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jellybean78
:)
Member since 8/06 13103 total posts
Name:
Mommy
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
First off hugs Second don't give hope. After I read your post I googled because you and I have very similar stories. We both have DCs and both have multiple m/cs. Dr. T recommended the same test for us also. Read this below. I found this on another message board. This was the response to someones post about her DHs test also coming back really bad. Praying for you 
Found this for you, because after I read your post I wondered if we had done that test too. http://www.ivf1.com/sperm-dna-fragmentation/
It basically disputes the fact of you and your DH having an only 1% chance so dont give up Girll !
Clinical significance of the SCSA test
Some of the early clinical data involving SCSA suggested that men with more than 30% of their DNA with fragmentation had extremely poor pregnancy rates (1% or less) even with aggressive techniques such as in vitro fertilization - IVF.Current data proves that this was not true! In 2004, several research abstracts were presented at the annual meeting of the American Society for Reproductive Medicine - ASRM. The results of these studies were quite different than the original studies.
In Colorado, 128 couples going through an IVF cycle had sperm frozen for SCSA. The pregnancy rate in patients with a SCSA showing less than 30% fragmentation (the normal group) was 62%. The pregnancy rate in patients with an SCSA greater than 30% (the abnormal group) was 81%. In the abnormal group, the average SCSA result was a fragmentation index of 40%.
Another study performed in North Carolina and since published in the journal Fertility and Sterility involved 100 couples undergoing IVF. SCSA testing was performed on the same semen specimen that was used for fertilization of the eggs. Nine of nineteen couples achieved clinical pregnancy when the DFI (DNA fragmentation index) was greater than 27 %.
The best conclusions that can be made today about an abnormal SCSA test are:
All men, whether fertile or infertile, have some sperm with fragmented DNA
Men with a normal semen analysis can have an abnormal SCSA.
A SCSA test result is very consistent over time. The SCSA is more consistent than a semen analysis. Some things can cause an abnormal test, however, such as a high fever or certain medications. Certain steps in preparing to do the test can affect the results of the SCSA.
The best evidence to dates suggests that men with an abnormally high percentage of sperm with DNA fragmentation, have a pregnancy rate similar to men with a normal percentage of sperm DNA fragmentation when using techniques such as IVF.
Some final things to know
Currently, it does not seem that the SCSA test will help predict those couples who are less likely to get pregnant with IVF. It is also unclear who should have the SCSA test and who does not need it. Even if we believe that the test is correctly identifying couples with a lower chance for achieving pregnancy, there are no clinical trials that have ever looked at possible treatments.
I have been placing my patients on high doses of antioxidants but the results have been mixed. Some men showed no improvement but still achieved a pregnancy. The bottom line is much still needs to learned about this test and what it means. Incidentally, most insurance companies still consider this test to be experimental and therefore refuse to cover it.
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| Posted 3/5/14 11:23 AM |
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Lillies
Grateful for my babies!
Member since 2/12 4571 total posts
Name:
<3
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
Posted by jellybean78
First off hugs Second don't give hope. After I read your post I googled because you and I have very similar stories. We both have DCs and both have multiple m/cs. Dr. T recommended the same test for us also. Read this below. I found this on another message board. This was the response to someones post about her DHs test also coming back really bad. Praying for you
Found this for you, because after I read your post I wondered if we had done that test too. http://www.ivf1.com/sperm-dna-fragmentation/
It basically disputes the fact of you and your DH having an only 1% chance so dont give up Girll !
Clinical significance of the SCSA test
Some of the early clinical data involving SCSA suggested that men with more than 30% of their DNA with fragmentation had extremely poor pregnancy rates (1% or less) even with aggressive techniques such as in vitro fertilization - IVF.Current data proves that this was not true! In 2004, several research abstracts were presented at the annual meeting of the American Society for Reproductive Medicine - ASRM. The results of these studies were quite different than the original studies.
In Colorado, 128 couples going through an IVF cycle had sperm frozen for SCSA. The pregnancy rate in patients with a SCSA showing less than 30% fragmentation (the normal group) was 62%. The pregnancy rate in patients with an SCSA greater than 30% (the abnormal group) was 81%. In the abnormal group, the average SCSA result was a fragmentation index of 40%.
Another study performed in North Carolina and since published in the journal Fertility and Sterility involved 100 couples undergoing IVF. SCSA testing was performed on the same semen specimen that was used for fertilization of the eggs. Nine of nineteen couples achieved clinical pregnancy when the DFI (DNA fragmentation index) was greater than 27 %.
The best conclusions that can be made today about an abnormal SCSA test are:
All men, whether fertile or infertile, have some sperm with fragmented DNA
Men with a normal semen analysis can have an abnormal SCSA.
A SCSA test result is very consistent over time. The SCSA is more consistent than a semen analysis. Some things can cause an abnormal test, however, such as a high fever or certain medications. Certain steps in preparing to do the test can affect the results of the SCSA.
The best evidence to dates suggests that men with an abnormally high percentage of sperm with DNA fragmentation, have a pregnancy rate similar to men with a normal percentage of sperm DNA fragmentation when using techniques such as IVF.
Some final things to know
Currently, it does not seem that the SCSA test will help predict those couples who are less likely to get pregnant with IVF. It is also unclear who should have the SCSA test and who does not need it. Even if we believe that the test is correctly identifying couples with a lower chance for achieving pregnancy, there are no clinical trials that have ever looked at possible treatments.
I have been placing my patients on high doses of antioxidants but the results have been mixed. Some men showed no improvement but still achieved a pregnancy. The bottom line is much still needs to learned about this test and what it means. Incidentally, most insurance companies still consider this test to be experimental and therefore refuse to cover it.
Thank you so much. Dr. T told me that although this will make things difficult, it does not mean no babies. The aim is to try and get more embies so there's more of a chance for fertilization. He thinks the antioxidants are his best bet to improve things. I guess you never know, right?
He has a high amount of free radicals and oxidative stress in his sperm. We have no idea why or from what. He doesn't have any of the issues listed so we are just worried about that.
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| Posted 3/5/14 3:10 PM |
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bookworm
Two Little Rosebuds
Member since 8/09 2106 total posts
Name:
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
* Daily ejaculation (longer it's in the body the more oxidation it's exposed to)
* Anti-oxidant therapy (vitamin c and e supplements are what the urologist recommended)
* Has he been checked for a varicocele?
* Does he take any medications that hurt his sperm quality?
* My DH did needle (testicular) aspiration for our last rounds of IVF. That's what they recommended for high fragmentation with normal sperm analysis and IVF failure.
* Consider consulting with Peter Schlegel at Cornell (right in NYC) he's top in his field.
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| Posted 3/5/14 4:42 PM |
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Lillies
Grateful for my babies!
Member since 2/12 4571 total posts
Name:
<3
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
Posted by bookworm
* Daily ejaculation (longer it's in the body the more oxidation it's exposed to)
* Anti-oxidant therapy (vitamin c and e supplements are what the urologist recommended)
* Has he been checked for a varicocele?
* Does he take any medications that hurt his sperm quality?
* My DH did needle (testicular) aspiration for our last rounds of IVF. That's what they recommended for high fragmentation with normal sperm analysis and IVF failure.
* Consider consulting with Peter Schlegel at Cornell (right in NYC) he's top in his field.
Thanks so much! You always come through!
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| Posted 3/5/14 6:02 PM |
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FlowerWife
Positive Vibrations...
Member since 1/08 8423 total posts
Name:
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
my DH did the DNA defrag pretty early in the game and had borderline elevated free radicals. dr. B recommended a vitamin supplement antioxidant that he developed called Maxi Flavone. we used it and never really had any further sperm issues and our IVF with ICSI was perfect with 100% fertilization on 18 eggs.
i would def ask Dr. T about it and if hes not sure you might even try calling Dr. B's office and asking him for more info since he helped develop the supplement. good luck!
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| Posted 3/5/14 9:31 PM |
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Lillies
Grateful for my babies!
Member since 2/12 4571 total posts
Name:
<3
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
Posted by FlowerWife
my DH did the DNA defrag pretty early in the game and had borderline elevated free radicals. dr. B recommended a vitamin supplement antioxidant that he developed called Maxi Flavone. we used it and never really had any further sperm issues and our IVF with ICSI was perfect with 100% fertilization on 18 eggs.
i would def ask Dr. T about it and if hes not sure you might even try calling Dr. B's office and asking him for more info since he helped develop the supplement. good luck!
I have heard of this. Did you take it also? I see it's for women too. I'll email Dr. T about it tomorrow. They are very good friends and worked together before so I'm sure he knows about it. Thanks so much!
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| Posted 3/5/14 9:49 PM |
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FlowerWife
Positive Vibrations...
Member since 1/08 8423 total posts
Name:
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
Posted by Lillies
Posted by FlowerWife
my DH did the DNA defrag pretty early in the game and had borderline elevated free radicals. dr. B recommended a vitamin supplement antioxidant that he developed called Maxi Flavone. we used it and never really had any further sperm issues and our IVF with ICSI was perfect with 100% fertilization on 18 eggs.
i would def ask Dr. T about it and if hes not sure you might even try calling Dr. B's office and asking him for more info since he helped develop the supplement. good luck!
I have heard of this. Did you take it also? I see it's for women too. I'll email Dr. T about it tomorrow. They are very good friends and worked together before so I'm sure he knows about it. Thanks so much!
i didnt take it. he said i could but it wasnt necessary and since it wasnt cheap i chose not to.
yes dr T and dr B are old colleagues. not sure if dr B still recs this supplement since i havent heard too much about it lately so you may want to ask just in case; my cycles were in 2010 so there may be better stuff out there now.
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| Posted 3/5/14 10:46 PM |
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journey22
LIF Toddler
Member since 7/13 374 total posts
Name:
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Re: We just got some answers... (MF related)
That's great, i'm glad you finally got some answers and found a Dr. that you are comfortable working with!
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| Posted 3/6/14 4:08 PM |
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