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Christine2
LIF Adult
Member since 2/09 1217 total posts
Name:
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
Disney will settle a lawsuit and move on. There is no way that Disney is dumb enough to fight this in court. In the battle of public opinion, it is best to settle quickly. In fact, I bet they offer the family money and offer to fix the problem before a suit is even brought.
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Posted 6/16/16 2:26 PM  |
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NervousNell
Just another chapter in life..
Member since 11/09 54921 total posts
Name:
..being a mommy and being a wife!
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by MC09
So, if I open a business, and I'm aware there is a potentially life threatening danger lurking, I even do regular sweeps but it's difficult to completely eliminate this danger... and I don't adequately warn my patrons of the existence of that danger, and one of my patrons is attacked and seriously injured or dies, I'm not accountable right? Cool, good to know.
I'm quite sure it falls under a "reasonable best efforts" clause. WHEN they know that alligators have made their way onto their property, they clear them out.
Disclaimer: I work for lawyers and should be editing a document with these phrases in it but instead I'm here because this is more interesting.
No business, no human, no living thing can be 100% perfect. If Disney maintains it's reasonable best efforts to keep its waters free from indigenous species that may cause harm to patrons, then they are not liable. I'm sure signs will be up by the end of the week, however, they are not negligent just because they don't have signs up saying that alligators may be present, when in their 40 year history, there has never before been an alligator attack on their property.
But alligators are indigenous to Florida, not just Disney but Disney World was built on swamp land. Do we need to put signs in the airport saying so? Do we need signs in California airports alerting travelers that there may be earthquakes or brush fires?
But wouldn't a sign warning of the gators be considered a part of that "reasonable best effort"?
I feel like ok maybe they made some effort, but they didn't make the best effort.
Best effort to me would not be a sign saying- no swimming- which we see here is up for interpretation. Best effort should have been a sign saying, don't go near the water, alligators!
I think that is where the issue is going to be.
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| Posted 6/16/16 2:46 PM |
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eroxgirl
My Loves
Member since 5/05 15697 total posts
Name:
Rebecca
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by MC09
So, if I open a business, and I'm aware there is a potentially life threatening danger lurking, I even do regular sweeps but it's difficult to completely eliminate this danger... and I don't adequately warn my patrons of the existence of that danger, and one of my patrons is attacked and seriously injured or dies, I'm not accountable right? Cool, good to know.
I'm quite sure it falls under a "reasonable best efforts" clause. WHEN they know that alligators have made their way onto their property, they clear them out.
Disclaimer: I work for lawyers and should be editing a document with these phrases in it but instead I'm here because this is more interesting.
No business, no human, no living thing can be 100% perfect. If Disney maintains it's reasonable best efforts to keep its waters free from indigenous species that may cause harm to patrons, then they are not liable. I'm sure signs will be up by the end of the week, however, they are not negligent just because they don't have signs up saying that alligators may be present, when in their 40 year history, there has never before been an alligator attack on their property.
But alligators are indigenous to Florida, not just Disney but Disney World was built on swamp land. Do we need to put signs in the airport saying so? Do we need signs in California airports alerting travelers that there may be earthquakes or brush fires?
But wouldn't a sign warning of the gators be considered a part of that "reasonable best effort"?
I feel like ok maybe they made some effort, but they didn't make the best effort.
Best effort to me would not be a sign saying- no swimming- which we see here is up for interpretation. Best effort should have been a sign saying, don't go near the water, alligators!
I think that is where the issue is going to be.
If Disney World was built today, then yes, maybe, because we live in a time where we put all of the warnings - common sense and not - on everything because everyone is quick to sue (yay, I have a job but still, yuck). But based on this:
Posted by MichLiz213
The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission estimate a human's chances of being attacked by an alligator as 1 in 2.5 MILLION. According to other stories I've read, this time of year is alligator mating season...
I'm going to say not necessarily. From this point on, yes, they need to have signs up. But 1 in 2.5 million odds??? I don't think it's so cut and dried.
It is a tragedy.
Message edited 6/16/2016 3:03:31 PM.
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| Posted 6/16/16 3:00 PM |
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blu6385
Member since 5/08 8351 total posts
Name:
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
Posted by MarisaK
I have to be honest -
My first reaction was WTF is wrong w/ those parents? There was a very specific no swimming sign - But then I thought about it -
Growing up near the ocean, you KNOW, you LEARN, you SEE what the water can do, what an animal can do - when you see a 'No Swimming" sign ......you know it's for a reason, you don't go swimming.
But even then, swimming isn't standing ankle deep in the water .......even on the ocean, with no lifeguard on duty and 'no swimming' rules ..........we still run around at the surf, knowing what we know.
But people who don't live near natural bodies of water don't have that same knowledge and experience, and caution.
AND - I would never in a million years think that there were alligators in the Disney Resort's lagoon water ........NEVER would it have crossed my mind.
Everything at Disney is so perfectly manicured and prestine and seemingly man made ......I wouldn't even THINK of the possibility of natural bodies of water flowing in and through that man made lake ......and wild animals getting in .......
in hindsight, yes, I guess it might be 'common sense' .........but, it's easy to say that from my desk with both of my kids safe -
This was a completely freak accident. Those parents didn't anything different than what 5 million otheres before them did in that exactl same spot .......They were just the exceptionally unfortunate ones.
 
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| Posted 6/16/16 3:00 PM |
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Jenhos
Maeve
Member since 6/05 3273 total posts
Name:
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
If you go to a private beach club and get bit or killed by a shark, is the beach club responsible? They don't post signs that there are sharks in the ocean.
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| Posted 6/16/16 3:18 PM |
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luvmykids8
LIF Adult
Member since 9/15 2050 total posts
Name:
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
Posted by blu6385
Posted by MarisaK
I have to be honest -
My first reaction was WTF is wrong w/ those parents? There was a very specific no swimming sign - But then I thought about it -
Growing up near the ocean, you KNOW, you LEARN, you SEE what the water can do, what an animal can do - when you see a 'No Swimming" sign ......you know it's for a reason, you don't go swimming.
But even then, swimming isn't standing ankle deep in the water .......even on the ocean, with no lifeguard on duty and 'no swimming' rules ..........we still run around at the surf, knowing what we know.
But people who don't live near natural bodies of water don't have that same knowledge and experience, and caution.
AND - I would never in a million years think that there were alligators in the Disney Resort's lagoon water ........NEVER would it have crossed my mind.
Everything at Disney is so perfectly manicured and prestine and seemingly man made ......I wouldn't even THINK of the possibility of natural bodies of water flowing in and through that man made lake ......and wild animals getting in .......
in hindsight, yes, I guess it might be 'common sense' .........but, it's easy to say that from my desk with both of my kids safe -
This was a completely freak accident. Those parents didn't anything different than what 5 million otheres before them did in that exactl same spot .......They were just the exceptionally unfortunate ones.
my exact thoughts!!
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| Posted 6/16/16 3:23 PM |
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NervousNell
Just another chapter in life..
Member since 11/09 54921 total posts
Name:
..being a mommy and being a wife!
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
Posted by Jenhos
If you go to a private beach club and get bit or killed by a shark, is the beach club responsible? They don't post signs that there are sharks in the ocean.
I think when you enter the ocean there is a pretty well known risk of the possibility of sharks. This dates back to the days of the movie Jaws. I mean, it's the OCEAN
When you are on a fake "beach" at a Disney resort, in ankle deep water, you don't expect an alligator to come up and grab your child.
I had no idea that any of those man made bodies of water would harbor creatures like that.
Message edited 6/16/2016 3:28:51 PM.
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| Posted 6/16/16 3:25 PM |
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BabyFever10
St. Gianna Pray for us
Member since 9/09 1326 total posts
Name:
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
http://www.aol.com/article/2016/06/16/gator-attack-disney-knew-of-problems-staffer-asked-for-fence-a/21396609/
I lived in a Florida years ago and I always saw signs by lakes etc that said "Don't Feed the Alligators" - they definitely should have had those up
Message edited 6/16/2016 3:28:19 PM.
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| Posted 6/16/16 3:26 PM |
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MC09
arrrghhh!!!!
Member since 2/09 5674 total posts
Name:
Me speaks pirate!
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by Jenhos
If you go to a private beach club and get bit or killed by a shark, is the beach club responsible? They don't post signs that there are sharks in the ocean.
I think when you enter the ocean there is a pretty well known risk of the possibility of sharks. This dates back to the days of the movie Jaws. I mean, it's the OCEAN
When you are on a fake "beach" at a Disney resort, in ankle deep water, you don't expect an alligator to come up and grab your child.
I had no idea that any of those man made bodies of water would harbor creatures like that.
Exactly this, I don't consider sharks in the wild (ocean) the same as this situation, a man made beach recreation mareted towards families advertised as safe, with water and beach activities, movie nights, etc.
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| Posted 6/16/16 3:48 PM |
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Jugglemom
LIF Adolescent
Member since 3/12 809 total posts
Name:
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
Posted by MC09
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by Jenhos
If you go to a private beach club and get bit or killed by a shark, is the beach club responsible? They don't post signs that there are sharks in the ocean.
I think when you enter the ocean there is a pretty well known risk of the possibility of sharks. This dates back to the days of the movie Jaws. I mean, it's the OCEAN
When you are on a fake "beach" at a Disney resort, in ankle deep water, you don't expect an alligator to come up and grab your child.
I had no idea that any of those man made bodies of water would harbor creatures like that.
Exactly this, I don't consider sharks in the wild (ocean) the same as this situation, a man made beach recreation mareted towards families advertised as safe, with water and beach activities, movie nights, etc.
Why? Man made or not that lake has been there for half a decade. The alligators don't know it's man made. There is nothing inherently different about a man made lake. If you look at a map of central Florida you will see there are thousands of jakes in the area so I would not be surprised if parts of seven seas lagoon were smaller lakes originally.
Speaking as corporate counsel, a no swimming allowed can be better sometimes than listing specifics. For instance, if I say no swimming - alligators possible, then someone who gets a deadly bacteria or a poisonous water moccasin will say "you didn't warn me about that only alligators". So then you need to have a laundry list of qualifiers on a sign to account for every eventuality. Also, they had legal precedent on their side when determining language as Florida courts had already determined, in other cases, that if you go in the water despite such a warning, the parks are not responsible.
I think it's a tragic accident but I don't think it was necessarily foreseeable considering it had never happened in the 40 something history of the park.
Eta: there is no body of water in Florida that is completely ever safe from a possible alligator no matter how safe you try to make them. Even if there has never been one there could. Hell, people have found them in their pools!
Message edited 6/16/2016 4:38:01 PM.
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| Posted 6/16/16 4:36 PM |
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mommy2
LIF Zygote
Member since 8/07 8 total posts
Name:
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
This is not the first time an alligator has attacked a child in Disney. In 1986, an alligator attacked a child standing on the side of lake at Fort Wilderness. The child in that attacked survived.
I definitely feel that Disney knew there was a risk, but was playing the odds. We stayed a Shades of Green a few years ago. Shades of Green is across from the Polynesian, but it is a hotel run by the military. There were definitely Alligator signs posted on the property. I remember be very vigilant with my children near the water and walking around the resort in general. This year, we went to Disney in April and stayed at the Caribbean Beach. There were no signs posted about alligators and I remember wondering if there were any there, but thought there is no way Disney who micromanages everything wouldn't do everything possible to prevent alligators at their resorts. I was less vigilant with my children this time. I let them run ahead of me, dig in the sand at the beach, while I swung on the hammock. My kids even went right up to the edge of the lake looking at ducks in the water in the morning, while Disney workers watched smiling a few feet away. Not once, even while the workers watched my kids standing at the edge, did anyone ever say to be careful. We enjoyed our movie nights, never once thinking that there could be alligators.
Disney makes everything magical. You are telling me they couldn't give you a little happy warning when you check in that Disney lives in peace with the natural habitat of Florida and that although rare it is possible that alligators and other wildlife can be found it's lakes and on its property?
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| Posted 6/16/16 7:50 PM |
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BargainMama
LIF Adult
Member since 5/09 15657 total posts
Name:
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
From Kenny The Pirate's site
here is a link to the changes Disney has made as of now.
http://www.kennythepirate.com/2016/06/16/changes-made-in-light-of-the-recent-alligator-attack-at-walt-disney-world/ Image Attachment(s):
Message edited 6/16/2016 7:58:43 PM.
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| Posted 6/16/16 7:54 PM |
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chilltocam
LIF Adult
Member since 11/11 9141 total posts
Name:
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Alligator Attack in Disney
I just heard a news story that aside from the child being attacked by an alligator in 1986, another family says their child was chased (but not harmed) by an alligator at Disney. I didn't catch the date, but I have to believe there are a lot of other similar stories out there. Disney KNEW of the danger and ignored it. All the while, creating the illusion that Disney is one of the safest places to be with our family.
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| Posted 6/16/16 8:04 PM |
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BargainMama
LIF Adult
Member since 5/09 15657 total posts
Name:
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
Posted by chilltocam
I just heard a news story that aside from the child being attacked by an alligator in 1986, another family says their child was chased (but not harmed) by an alligator at Disney. I didn't catch the date, but I have to believe there are a lot of other similar stories out there. Disney KNEW of the danger and ignored it. All the while, creating the illusion that Disney is one of the safest places to be with our family.
3 alligator incidents in 40 years wouldn't make me believe it wasn't a safe place. I don't think it's an illusion. We've been like 20 times and have never had safety issues. This was a freak accident, that yes, could've been prevented with better signage and warnings. But it's not like people are getting snatched up daily and they are sweeping it under the rug while smiling and proclaiming they are so safe.
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| Posted 6/16/16 8:14 PM |
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LauBear
LIF Infant
Member since 6/09 313 total posts
Name:
Lauren
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
Posted by Jugglemom
Posted by MC09
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by Jenhos
If you go to a private beach club and get bit or killed by a shark, is the beach club responsible? They don't post signs that there are sharks in the ocean.
I think when you enter the ocean there is a pretty well known risk of the possibility of sharks. This dates back to the days of the movie Jaws. I mean, it's the OCEAN
When you are on a fake "beach" at a Disney resort, in ankle deep water, you don't expect an alligator to come up and grab your child.
I had no idea that any of those man made bodies of water would harbor creatures like that.
Exactly this, I don't consider sharks in the wild (ocean) the same as this situation, a man made beach recreation mareted towards families advertised as safe, with water and beach activities, movie nights, etc.
Why? Man made or not that lake has been there for half a decade. The alligators don't know it's man made. There is nothing inherently different about a man made lake. If you look at a map of central Florida you will see there are thousands of jakes in the area so I would not be surprised if parts of seven seas lagoon were smaller lakes originally.
Speaking as corporate counsel, a no swimming allowed can be better sometimes than listing specifics. For instance, if I say no swimming - alligators possible, then someone who gets a deadly bacteria or a poisonous water moccasin will say "you didn't warn me about that only alligators". So then you need to have a laundry list of qualifiers on a sign to account for every eventuality. Also, they had legal precedent on their side when determining language as Florida courts had already determined, in other cases, that if you go in the water despite such a warning, the parks are not responsible.
I think it's a tragic accident but I don't think it was necessarily foreseeable considering it had never happened in the 40 something history of the park.
Eta: there is no body of water in Florida that is completely ever safe from a possible alligator no matter how safe you try to make them. Even if there has never been one there could. Hell, people have found them in their pools!
There is no need for a "laundry list of qualifiers" but there is a need to warn people of alligators in the water, as they do in many other areas of Florida (and in some areas within Disney). At the very least a Do not ENTER the water sign in lieu of a No Swimming Please sign would clarify that even wading is not allowed. I have seen countless pictures posted since the incident occurred of children doing just what this little boy was doing so it was a common occurrence at this location. And if Disney knew that there was a possibility of an attack like that (and clearly they did because they have removed alligators before and they have apparently been spotted at several resorts walking onto the beach from what I have read these past two days) then it is their responsibility to if not protect, at least properly inform their guests of this possibility.
Floridians may be very well aware of the prevalence of alligators in just about any body of water in the state, but many of Disney's guests are not aware of this. I am sure this poor family from Nebraska believed that they were in a safe area. I love Disney and my husband and I have vacationed their annually for the past five years with our young children. It is a wonderful vacation spot and (in this case unfortunately) when you are on Disney premises you do fall under their spell. Everything seems magical. I am sure it never entered the minds of these parents when they decided attend the hotel sponsored movie viewing that evening that there would be alligators lurking in the area. But Disney knew. They knew and they still held a movie night on this beach at dusk during mating season with no barrier to prevent an alligator from wandering into the area- and nothing but a "No SWIMMING Please" sign to keep guests from entering the water. I have read posts and articles about so many Disney guests from this and other lake front resorts over the course of the last day describing their own encounters with alligators on Disney premises. So if these alligators were known to enter these areas why didn't Disney take more precautions to avoid something like this? The only precaution taken is a "No Swimming Please" sign? Seriously? No barrieres, not alligator signs, nothing stating that guests should not ENTER the water?
This was ABSOLUTELY a forseeable accident. Disney had been approached by many guests informing them of alligator sightings and they themselves removed alligators from these lakes, but yet they neglected to place up signage warning guests of this danger and continued to hold events with small children in these areas (and at dusk, during mating season). It was announced that they are now putting up alligator signage all over. Too bad this could not have been done before this poor baby lost his life.
And this is not the first time this has been an issue in the 40 something years Disney has been open. An 8 year old boy was attacked (but thankfully not killed) by an alligator at the Fort Wilderness Resort and Campground back in 1986.
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| Posted 6/16/16 8:21 PM |
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Goobster
:)
Member since 5/07 27557 total posts
Name:
:)
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
Posted by BargainMama
they are no different than any other business. Although I don't think they are greedy at all. I don't know that the alligator signs not being displayed were because people would be turned off. I wouldn't be. I would just know not to stick my feet in the water. We stay at a very nice resort in Orlando often and they have signs, which absolutely don't deter anyone.
I agree. Aligator signs would not deter me or make me think less of a Disney hotel. If anything it would just keep me away from the sand. Which the no swimming signs were enough to keep me away b/c I was skeeved that my DD might get some gross bacteria on her.
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| Posted 6/16/16 11:02 PM |
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Mushesgirl
Too blessed to be stressed
Member since 4/09 6691 total posts
Name:
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
Different incident:
Whalen said that’s what happened in 2012 after the gator appeared in the water near her kids at Disney’s Caribbean Beach Resort, which is on a different lake than the one where the boy was killed.
As shocked tourists looked on, she said, trappers caught the animal and carried it away, writhing, across a pool and courtyard area outside the hotel. Disney workers threatened to confiscate the phones and cameras of anyone who tried to photograph or videotape the spectacle, she said.
wink news
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| Posted 6/16/16 11:27 PM |
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BargainMama
LIF Adult
Member since 5/09 15657 total posts
Name:
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
Posted by Mushesgirl
Different incident:
Whalen said that’s what happened in 2012 after the gator appeared in the water near her kids at Disney’s Caribbean Beach Resort, which is on a different lake than the one where the boy was killed.
As shocked tourists looked on, she said, trappers caught the animal and carried it away, writhing, across a pool and courtyard area outside the hotel. Disney workers threatened to confiscate the phones and cameras of anyone who tried to photograph or videotape the spectacle, she said.
wink news
I do know that Disney has strict policies of photographing their cast members when things go awry. For instance, the Kali River Rapids ride broke down, and guests has to get off their floats and walk behind the scenes. Guests were absolutely not allowed to take pictures or videos of cast members helping people off, etc.
Nancy Grace ran this story last night. She showed footage of a wedding guest at the Grand Floridian in recent weeks who saw pretty large looking alligator in the lagoon from their balcony. It was said that the guests never said anything to Disney about the gator, so it remained.
Message edited 6/17/2016 8:12:27 AM.
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| Posted 6/17/16 8:10 AM |
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Hofstra26
Love to Bake!
Member since 7/06 27915 total posts
Name:
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
Posted by Mushesgirl
Different incident:
Whalen said that’s what happened in 2012 after the gator appeared in the water near her kids at Disney’s Caribbean Beach Resort, which is on a different lake than the one where the boy was killed.
As shocked tourists looked on, she said, trappers caught the animal and carried it away, writhing, across a pool and courtyard area outside the hotel. Disney workers threatened to confiscate the phones and cameras of anyone who tried to photograph or videotape the spectacle, she said.
wink news
This doesn't surprise me though. I would bet every resort, theme park, or vacation spot even outside of Disney would not want people videotaping or taking pics of anything that goes down. Obviously as a business it's bad press for them AND things can be taken out of context if someone only gets a snippet of film or or one picture.
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| Posted 6/17/16 8:42 AM |
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summerBaby10
let's be nice
Member since 9/07 10208 total posts
Name:
Wifey
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
I read that the GF comped their guests rooms after the attack. Nice gesture for their guests.
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| Posted 6/17/16 8:53 AM |
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WonderLady
LIF Infant
Member since 1/15 355 total posts
Name:
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Alligator Attack in Disney
On a fb thread just now I saw a pic of an older looking Grand Floridian advertisement where a couple in bathing suits is walking in that lagoon about ankle deep. Case closed, imo that totally proves that it's reasonable behavior with the expectation of safety. Idk how to post the pic. Of course this is assuming the pic is legit, but it looks so.
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| Posted 6/17/16 8:53 AM |
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chilltocam
LIF Adult
Member since 11/11 9141 total posts
Name:
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
Posted by BargainMama
Posted by chilltocam
I just heard a news story that aside from the child being attacked by an alligator in 1986, another family says their child was chased (but not harmed) by an alligator at Disney. I didn't catch the date, but I have to believe there are a lot of other similar stories out there. Disney KNEW of the danger and ignored it. All the while, creating the illusion that Disney is one of the safest places to be with our family.
3 alligator incidents in 40 years wouldn't make me believe it wasn't a safe place. I don't think it's an illusion. We've been like 20 times and have never had safety issues. This was a freak accident, that yes, could've been prevented with better signage and warnings. But it's not like people are getting snatched up daily and they are sweeping it under the rug while smiling and proclaiming they are so safe.
3 incidents that we know of and many many more sightings of alligators by Disney guests. Disney knew that there were alligators, knew they were dangerous - otherwise why remove them? and did nothing to warn their guests. Overall, in the grand scheme of things, is Disney a safe place - absolutely. Can freak accidents happen anywhere - absolutely. But there was a KNOWN potential for extreme danger that they failed to warn about. I think that places a whole lot of blame on Disney
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| Posted 6/17/16 9:44 AM |
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bunnyluck
LIF Adult
Member since 1/14 3196 total posts
Name:
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Alligator Attack in Disney
I totally blame Disney. They shouldn't have a beach leading into an alligator habitat at a family resort with no warnings of the potential dangers.
The onus is on them here. I know it's a freak accident but I even I feel doped by them. I was on that beach with my 1 year old playing near the shoreline in April and NEVER for a split second did the thought of an alligator cross my mind. And looking back, I feel like an idiot, of course there are alligators in that lagoon. It's freakin central Florida. But Disney creates an illusion of Safety and has an inviting beach with lounge chairs. Just dumb, dumb, dumb.
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| Posted 6/17/16 10:07 AM |
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Tulips915
................
Member since 8/08 6851 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
Posted by bunnyluck
I totally blame Disney. They shouldn't have a beach leading into an alligator habitat at a family resort with no warnings of the potential dangers.
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| Posted 6/17/16 10:27 AM |
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Mushesgirl
Too blessed to be stressed
Member since 4/09 6691 total posts
Name:
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Re: Alligator Attack in Disney
Posted by Tulips915
Posted by bunnyluck
I totally blame Disney. They shouldn't have a beach leading into an alligator habitat at a family resort with no warnings of the potential dangers.
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| Posted 6/17/16 11:51 AM |
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