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seaside
LIF Adult
Member since 6/08 3101 total posts
Name:
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
Posted by PreshusSmurf
Posted by sweetie
I feel like you can't really question someone on what they consider their ethnicity to be.
If they identify themselves a certain way, why would you try to prove them wrong by busting out the dictionary.
Thank you for this. 
Seriously. I don't see why people feel the need to "raise eyebrows" or "question" the way members of a group choose to self-identify, especially when the group's treatment by the world over centuries has been so atrocious that they have been so dispersed, robbed of their names, possessions, etc. Most jews that I know don't have family heirlooms from other centuries that have been passed down. Their names have been changed, and their ancestors were told that they were no longer welcome in countries that they were in over decades and over centuries. In fact, all that they have by way of identifying themselves and by way of history/documentation IS the fact that their ancestors were "jewish" and evicted, pillaged, robbed,and chased out of where they were. We have had this "debate" on here before, and the fact that itis a debate incenses me. Who is anyone to tell a group of people like this, who can't consult heirlooms, crests, records, etc. like many Christians and others can HOW to try to pick up those pieces and assemble a cultural identity?
Message edited 3/18/2009 6:20:17 PM.
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Posted 3/18/09 6:19 PM  |
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smdl
I love Gary too..on a plate!
Member since 5/06 32461 total posts
Name:
me
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
I think of it as a religion just like Christianity, Buddhism, etc.... It's not different.
WHERE you come from as a Jewish person describe ethnicity to me, not because you are Jewish.
I think because the Jewish population usually has a very close net circle (I am not talking about just NY but in general), the meaning of ethnicity has been "stretched" to include this religion as an ethnicity.
But in that case we would have to consider Amish people a separate ethnicity too. And we don't! We think of them as a religious group not a different ethnic group.
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| Posted 3/18/09 9:34 PM |
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seaside
LIF Adult
Member since 6/08 3101 total posts
Name:
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
OK., but here's the thing. Hundreds of years ago, many Jews considered themselves spanish...until the Inquisition. Then many Jews considered themselves patriotic Germans, Poles, etc., until the Holocaust. Jewish people have tried to assimilate into many countries over many years, but they have been separated, deemed by their persecutors to be ethnically unique and "racially inferior" to the point that they were massacred, raped, murdered, put in camps etc. Driven out of town. Now all that the descendants of these people have left is the religion, but also that distinction and the fact that because of their having been distinguished as an inferior race of people they have none of the hallmarks of ethnicity so many of you are looking for (common homeland, etc.).
That said, I would never tell the Amish that they were not a distinct ethnic group. They were driven out of certain countries and came to the US seeking religious freedom, but they come from certain specific places, they have a common race and one of just a few national origins.
Why is this so important anyway? For what reason would we even want or need to tell a group that may be self identifying as an "ethnicity" that they can't? In furtherance of what purpose?
Message edited 3/18/2009 10:46:46 PM.
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| Posted 3/18/09 9:49 PM |
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Goldi0218
My miracles!
Member since 12/05 23902 total posts
Name:
Leslie
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
I posted this in the other thread:
I DO consider my ethnic background to be Jewish. YES it is a religion, but it is a culture as well. I do not identify at all with my ancestry and it doesn't define who I am at all. HOWEVER, Judaism does, in many ways, define who I am and who I wish to be.
For THIS thread:
I don't really give a crap about definitions, technicalities or opinions. Judaism is most certainly my ethnicity. If it weren't, Id have NONE.
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| Posted 3/18/09 9:59 PM |
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PreshusSmurf
So in love with my little guys
Member since 1/07 2963 total posts
Name:
Jess
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
I have to be honest and say that I truly HATE this thread. I hate that it is making those of us who are Jewish and consider that to be BOTH our religion and our ethnicity feel the need to justify our feelings and defend ourselves.
I do understand that it was posted out of curiosity, and I'm all for a good debate ... especially an intelligent one ... but I just don't like the way this thread makes me feel.
And yes, I know that its always an option for me to stop reading the responses ... I don't think I can get myself to do that in this instance because I am curious what the other posters have to say on the subject.
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| Posted 3/18/09 10:03 PM |
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smdl
I love Gary too..on a plate!
Member since 5/06 32461 total posts
Name:
me
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
Posted by seaside
OK., but here's the thing. Hundreds of years ago, many Jews considered themselves spanish...until the Inquisition. Then many Jews considered themselves patriotic Germans, Poles, etc., until the Holocaust. Jewish people have tried to assimilate into many countries over many years, but they have been separated, deemed by their persecutors to be ethnically unique and "racially inferior" to the point that they were massacred, raped, murdered, put in camps etc. Driven out of town. Now all that the ancestors of these people have left is the religion, but also that distinction and the fact that because of their having been distinguished as an inferior race of people they have none of the hallmarks of ethnicity so many of you are looking for (common homeland, etc.).
That said, I would never tell the Amish that they were not a distinct ethnic group. They were driven out of certain countries and came to the US seeking religious freedom, but they come from certain specific places, they have a common race and one of just a few national origins.
Why is this so important anyway? For what reason would we even want or need to tell a group that may be self identifying as an "ethnicity" that they can't? In furtherance of what purpose?
FYI... DH is Jewish. So don't think I am against Jewish people.
There is no doubt that the Jewish population has a very close net community based on history. Trust me! Many men in my family were deported during WWII. They all made it safely home or I would not be typing this post right now as my mom and dad would not be born. Yet, I still think of it as a religion.
Honestly, you can call yourself whatever you want. That won't stop me from sleeping tonight.
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| Posted 3/18/09 10:03 PM |
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itkocak
Member since 7/07 7639 total posts
Name:
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
Message edited 11/23/2011 6:47:43 PM.
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| Posted 3/18/09 10:07 PM |
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Goldi0218
My miracles!
Member since 12/05 23902 total posts
Name:
Leslie
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
Posted by imthekevinofcindyandkevin
Posted by Goldi0218
I posted this in the other thread:
I DO consider my ethnic background to be Jewish. YES it is a religion, but it is a culture as well. I do not identify at all with my ancestry and it doesn't define who I am at all. HOWEVER, Judaism does, in many ways, define who I am and who I wish to be.
For THIS thread:
I don't really give a crap about definitions, technicalities or opinions. Judaism is most certainly my ethnicity. If it weren't, Id have NONE.
I thought you were Asian
TPC is Asian. I am not a middle aged Asian man - YOU'VE MET ME!!!!
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| Posted 3/18/09 10:09 PM |
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evnme
My little lamb
Member since 8/05 12633 total posts
Name:
aka momma2b
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
the bottom line is that this concept is hard to grasp if you are not jewish.
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| Posted 3/18/09 10:28 PM |
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Goldi0218
My miracles!
Member since 12/05 23902 total posts
Name:
Leslie
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
Posted by evnme
the bottom line is that this concept is hard to grasp if you are not jewish.
BINGO
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| Posted 3/18/09 10:32 PM |
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seaside
LIF Adult
Member since 6/08 3101 total posts
Name:
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
Posted by smdl
Posted by seaside
OK., but here's the thing. Hundreds of years ago, many Jews considered themselves spanish...until the Inquisition. Then many Jews considered themselves patriotic Germans, Poles, etc., until the Holocaust. Jewish people have tried to assimilate into many countries over many years, but they have been separated, deemed by their persecutors to be ethnically unique and "racially inferior" to the point that they were massacred, raped, murdered, put in camps etc. Driven out of town. Now all that the ancestors of these people have left is the religion, but also that distinction and the fact that because of their having been distinguished as an inferior race of people they have none of the hallmarks of ethnicity so many of you are looking for (common homeland, etc.).
That said, I would never tell the Amish that they were not a distinct ethnic group. They were driven out of certain countries and came to the US seeking religious freedom, but they come from certain specific places, they have a common race and one of just a few national origins.
Why is this so important anyway? For what reason would we even want or need to tell a group that may be self identifying as an "ethnicity" that they can't? In furtherance of what purpose?
FYI... DH is Jewish. So don't think I am against Jewish people.
There is no doubt that the Jewish population has a very close net community based on history. Trust me! Many men in my family were deported during WWII. They all made it safely home or I would not be typing this post right now as my mom and dad would not be born. Yet, I still think of it as a religion.
Honestly, you can call yourself whatever you want. That won't stop me from sleeping tonight.
Yikes! Who said anything about you & Jewish people? Why quote me and say that?
And what does a closely-knit community have to do with any of this? Or the men in your family?
And what did I call myself that won't stop you from sleeping?
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| Posted 3/18/09 10:38 PM |
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smdl
I love Gary too..on a plate!
Member since 5/06 32461 total posts
Name:
me
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
Posted by seaside
Posted by smdl
Posted by seaside
OK., but here's the thing. Hundreds of years ago, many Jews considered themselves spanish...until the Inquisition. Then many Jews considered themselves patriotic Germans, Poles, etc., until the Holocaust. Jewish people have tried to assimilate into many countries over many years, but they have been separated, deemed by their persecutors to be ethnically unique and "racially inferior" to the point that they were massacred, raped, murdered, put in camps etc. Driven out of town. Now all that the ancestors of these people have left is the religion, but also that distinction and the fact that because of their having been distinguished as an inferior race of people they have none of the hallmarks of ethnicity so many of you are looking for (common homeland, etc.).
That said, I would never tell the Amish that they were not a distinct ethnic group. They were driven out of certain countries and came to the US seeking religious freedom, but they come from certain specific places, they have a common race and one of just a few national origins.
Why is this so important anyway? For what reason would we even want or need to tell a group that may be self identifying as an "ethnicity" that they can't? In furtherance of what purpose?
FYI... DH is Jewish. So don't think I am against Jewish people.
There is no doubt that the Jewish population has a very close net community based on history. Trust me! Many men in my family were deported during WWII. They all made it safely home or I would not be typing this post right now as my mom and dad would not be born. Yet, I still think of it as a religion.
Honestly, you can call yourself whatever you want. That won't stop me from sleeping tonight.
Yikes! Who said anything about you & Jewish people? Why quote me and say that?
And what does a closely-knit community have to do with any of this? Or the men in your family?
And what did I call myself that won't stop you from sleeping?
Since I am the one who made a reference to the Amish, I considered you quoted me. Weren't you?
Then you asked a bunch of questions so I answered.
ETA: I added that I was married to a Jewish man (and my family history) so you would understand that my "rationalization" was not "condescending" in any way.
Message edited 3/18/2009 10:49:13 PM.
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| Posted 3/18/09 10:44 PM |
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evnme
My little lamb
Member since 8/05 12633 total posts
Name:
aka momma2b
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
i'm going to repeat myself:
the bottom line is that this concept is hard to grasp if you are not jewish.
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| Posted 3/18/09 10:47 PM |
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seaside
LIF Adult
Member since 6/08 3101 total posts
Name:
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
Posted by evnme
i'm going to repeat myself:
the bottom line is that this concept is hard to grasp if you are not jewish.
Thank you. And FTR, I never said or implied that anyone had a problem with Jews, or asked any question other than why? Why is this a debate? Why are we making rules about ethnicity? That's the only question I asked or wanted answered.
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| Posted 3/18/09 10:49 PM |
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HeathKernandez
Our Ron is an awesome Ron
Member since 4/07 9091 total posts
Name:
baby fish mouth
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
I was wondering... is this concept hard to grasp if you are not jewish?
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| Posted 3/19/09 8:39 AM |
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Bxgell2
Perfection
Member since 5/05 16438 total posts
Name:
Beth
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
Posted by evnme
i'm going to repeat myself:
the bottom line is that this concept is hard to grasp if you are not jewish.
This is just so true. There is so much more to judaism than religion, holidays, etc. It is a way of life, a common philosophy and upbringing. My husband and I are not religious at all - in fact, we are both atheist. He was brought up across the world, in Israel, while I grew up on LI. Before him, I had NEVER dated a jewish man, and yet, within seconds of meeting him, I knew that there was an unspoken commonality between us, in the way that we were raised, in our philosophies, our background, our history and our heritage that INSTANTLY bonded us.
And in a way, there are certain ethnic aspects to jewish people - this is why, when two jewish people marry and plan to have children, they undergo routine testing for the myriad of jewish genetic diseases that are more unique to jewish populations. We have a common genetic history that does span way back to a common ethnic origin. But because of our history, over time, jews have been forced to disperse. But, because of that, and despite it, jews have maintained a very distinct cultural entity that lives in each of us, no matter where we live geographically.
Message edited 3/19/2009 8:55:57 AM.
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| Posted 3/19/09 8:55 AM |
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SJSM
LIF Adolescent
Member since 1/09 764 total posts
Name:
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
Most Jews are not from one specific country, but all over Eastern Europe... which is why say "Jewish" has become our ethnicity. It explains to people our ancestors are from all over. If I tell people I'm an ashkanazi Jew most people will have no clue what that means.
________________________________________
Yes, but are most muslims, cathloics,etc...... All from the same Country? Or are they from different countries? KWIM
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| Posted 3/19/09 8:59 AM |
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Bxgell2
Perfection
Member since 5/05 16438 total posts
Name:
Beth
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
In a related thought, a few months back I saw this awesome show on PBS called The Jewish People: A Story of Survival. It delved into how the jewish culture survived all the obstacles, death and destruction over the millenia. Really fascinating:
PBS show
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| Posted 3/19/09 9:09 AM |
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seaside
LIF Adult
Member since 6/08 3101 total posts
Name:
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
Posted by Bxgell2
In a related thought, a few months back I saw this awesome show on PBS called The Jewish People: A Story of Survival. It delved into how the jewish culture survived all the obstacles, death and destruction over the millenia. Really fascinating:
PBS show
Saw this. It's wonderful.
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| Posted 3/19/09 9:15 AM |
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Kara
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They call me "Tater Salad"
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
Posted by PreshusSmurf
I have to be honest and say that I truly HATE this thread. I hate that it is making those of us who are Jewish and consider that to be BOTH our religion and our ethnicity feel the need to justify our feelings and defend ourselves.
I do understand that it was posted out of curiosity, and I'm all for a good debate ... especially an intelligent one ... but I just don't like the way this thread makes me feel.
And yes, I know that its always an option for me to stop reading the responses ... I don't think I can get myself to do that in this instance because I am curious what the other posters have to say on the subject.
I have to say, I am NOT Jewish and I don't really like this thread either for similar reasons.
I think it may help other (non-Jewish) people like myself understand the common cultural bond among Jewish people, though (to try to put a positive spin on it). At the same time, though, no one should have to feel the need to justify their heritage or their feelings about their culture.
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| Posted 3/19/09 9:53 AM |
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MrsA714
Baby #2 is here!
Member since 8/07 8806 total posts
Name:
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
I used to wonder the same thing when people would say they were Jewish when asked about their ethnicity, as I have always thought of it as a religion, not an ethnic background
Reading some of these posts though, however, I think I am understanding the reasoning behind it a little bit more. Perhaps, as a previous poster stated, it is difficult to grasp if you are not Jewish. I guess for people that are not Jewish, some of which have family members that came from other countries and were also forced to move or were perhaps persecuted as well, they still identify with some country or 'ethnic' background.
I have no problem with what anybody identifies themselves as - I don't think anyone should. Again, reading some of these posts it does make more sense to me now. I know for myself, personally, when I ask someone about their ethnicity or background I'm most curious as to where their parents or maybe grandparents were born. If the response is Jewish, I would just inquire further. No harm, no foul. 
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| Posted 3/19/09 9:57 AM |
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tourist
Member since 5/05 10425 total posts
Name:
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
Posted by evnme
the bottom line is that this concept is hard to grasp if you are not jewish.
I disagree. I get it & I think several people on here explained it very well.
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| Posted 3/19/09 10:02 AM |
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banda61007
LIF Infant
Member since 7/07 296 total posts
Name:
Bonnie
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
I don't think a label is important or necessary. If someone identifies with being Jewish as their religion, great. If they identify it as their ethnicity, great. I don't see what difference it makes to anyone else.
I am jewish, it is the part of my background I most identify with and the part of my backrgound growing up that had the biggest influence on my life. Is that ethnicity by the textbook definition, who knows? It works for me.
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| Posted 3/19/09 10:21 AM |
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seaside
LIF Adult
Member since 6/08 3101 total posts
Name:
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
See, I get not understanding why someone answers the question "what's your ethnicity"with "Judaism." I don't get not accepting the answers that have been given, or why anyone would feel the need to challenge the proposition. Again, in furtherance of what purpose is the belabored contesting?
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| Posted 3/19/09 10:26 AM |
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MrsR
My love.
Member since 5/05 6247 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: ethnicity spinoff
I found this on the net - maybe it will clear it up a little....
"Judaism shares some of the characteristics of a nation, an ethnicity, a religion, and a culture, making the definition of who is a Jew vary slightly depending on whether a religious or national approach to identity is used."
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| Posted 3/19/09 10:57 AM |
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