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Final Presidential Debate
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Kitten1929
LIF Adult
Member since 1/13 6040 total posts
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by JennP
Posted by lululu
Posted by TheDivaBrideandTeddyFrog
I saw your privilege and judgement despite your "being pro choice." You do you. I think that's what a lot of people are missing as of late.
Sorry not even sure what "you do you" even means. You are seriously ridiculous. And I really wish that people would stop using the word privilege!!! It's got to be the most overused word of 2016!
Wanting the problem to quietly go away proves the point of the posters who are accusing you of operating from that position.
Privilege is a very real concept evident in our culture, social patterns, systems, and institutions.
Obviously you can't help how you were born. (I wasn't born poor myself, although my mom and I did have some lean years later.)
But part of owning privilege is not contributing to the marginalization of people who deserve more.
To say a woman is entitled to an abortion only in extreme cases (i.e. rape or molestation) is to make a moral judgment that she only is entitled to take control over her body when she has gone through a certain level of trauma - basically, if someone committed a crime against her.
You have no business making that judgment - no one does.
I am relatively certain you'll dismiss me and go about your day. But if one person sees this and uses their privilege to lift others up and not push them down, it was worth it.
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Posted 10/24/16 8:43 AM  |
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lululu
LIF Adult
Member since 7/05 9511 total posts
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
I am not sure if what I am writing is not conveying my point accurately however I think that the fundamental difference between my beliefs and the more "popular" beliefs on this thread are that I do believe that life begins at conception and therefore I do believe that while a woman has a right over her own body, and should have that right under the eyes of the law, I find it unfortunate that those rights have to come at the expense of an innocent, unborn child. I don't personally think that has anything to do with privilege but maybe someone can explain to me how it does.
I find it hard to believe that anyone can see this issue as so black and white. Clearly it is so controversial because it is not a black and white issue and there is a lot of grey area here. And frankly no one should care if I am judging them for the decisions that they make (which for the record I'm actually not because I don't care enough). Everyone should be comfortable enough with their own choices to not mind what some stranger on a chat board thinks of them!
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| Posted 10/24/16 11:01 AM |
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by lululu
I find it hard to believe that anyone can see this issue as so black and white. Clearly it is so controversial because it is not a black and white issue and there is a lot of grey area here. And frankly no one should care if I am judging them for the decisions that they make (which for the record I'm actually not because I don't care enough). Everyone should be comfortable enough with their own choices to not mind what some stranger on a chat board thinks of them!
I don't mean to pick on you, but I wanted to just speak out that you should care. You should care about rights and in this example a woman's right to choose what she can or cannot do with her own body.
Praise whatever god people believe in but I haven't had to make this choice for myself, in any context, even if it was a drunken one night stand. However, the idea that the government can have a say in my uterus is horrifying.
Even if you are saying that you don't care because you're not trying to be judgmental, you should care.
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| Posted 10/24/16 11:47 AM |
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jellybean78
:)
Member since 8/06 13103 total posts
Name:
Mommy
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by Straightarrow
Posted by lululu
I find it hard to believe that anyone can see this issue as so black and white. Clearly it is so controversial because it is not a black and white issue and there is a lot of grey area here. And frankly no one should care if I am judging them for the decisions that they make (which for the record I'm actually not because I don't care enough). Everyone should be comfortable enough with their own choices to not mind what some stranger on a chat board thinks of them!
I don't mean to pick on you, but I wanted to just speak out that you should care. You should care about rights and in this example a woman's right to choose what she can or cannot do with her own body.
But this is the gray area. Some people see it as it'as a woman's body and she should do what she wants where other's believe the life inside is another human being with rights...who is right?? Is there any right answer? It depends on your beliefs and who am I to say your beliefs are wrong and who are you to say my beliefs are wrong? KWIM. It's a very gray area.
That said I'm pro-life 100% but I will not judge what others choose to do. Roe V Wade falls low on my priority of issues so while it may be a passionate issue for you and others, you can't expect everyone to care the same about it.
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| Posted 10/24/16 11:57 AM |
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eroxgirl
My Loves
Member since 5/05 15697 total posts
Name:
Rebecca
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by jellybean78
Posted by Straightarrow
Posted by lululu
I find it hard to believe that anyone can see this issue as so black and white. Clearly it is so controversial because it is not a black and white issue and there is a lot of grey area here. And frankly no one should care if I am judging them for the decisions that they make (which for the record I'm actually not because I don't care enough). Everyone should be comfortable enough with their own choices to not mind what some stranger on a chat board thinks of them!
I don't mean to pick on you, but I wanted to just speak out that you should care. You should care about rights and in this example a woman's right to choose what she can or cannot do with her own body.
But this is the gray area. Some people see it as it'as a woman's body and she should do what she wants where other's believe the life inside is another human being with rights...who is right?? Is there any right answer? It depends on your beliefs and who am I to say your beliefs are wrong and who are you to say my beliefs are wrong? KWIM. It's a very gray area.
That said I'm pro-life 100% but I will not judge what others choose to do. Roe V Wade falls low on my priority of issues so while it may be a passionate issue for you and others, you can't expect everyone to care the same about it.
But it *IS* my body. It is not YOUR body. I'm the one who has to eat right and go to the doctor and take my prenatal vitamins. I'm the one who has to feed it and clothe it and educate it (forgive me for the use of it, I have two kids and they are certainly people and not 'its').
and if I don't believe life begins at conception that's because I DO NOT BELIEVE that. That may be YOUR religion, but that may not be MY religion. I may not have a religion at all! And for right now, that's still okay in this country.
And if I was raped... well, you've (the rapist) already taken my choice and my body away from me once. I'll be damned if you're going to do it twice.
For the life of me I will never understand how people want small government, want people to fend for themselves and not rely on government but we want - no, demand - the government tell me I HAVE to give birth to a child that I didn't plan for, but will shame me for asking for assistance to do so.
ETA: I can totally appreciate that it falls low on your list. It's not as high on mine as it used to be, but my best friend will still die if she concieves a child because of her heart condition, she's still married, and she still can't take the pill and a lot of other birth control options. They are safe but that's not 100%. She's never had an abortion but she would have to if she were to accidentally get pregnant, or risk leaving her (adopted) son without a mother. There are many, many people out there like this. The government has no place in my uterus.
Message edited 10/24/2016 12:13:24 PM.
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| Posted 10/24/16 12:10 PM |
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JennP
LIF Adult
Member since 10/06 3986 total posts
Name:
Jenn
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by lululu
I am not sure if what I am writing is not conveying my point accurately however I think that the fundamental difference between my beliefs and the more "popular" beliefs on this thread are that I do believe that life begins at conception and therefore I do believe that while a woman has a right over her own body, and should have that right under the eyes of the law, I find it unfortunate that those rights have to come at the expense of an innocent, unborn child. I don't personally think that has anything to do with privilege but maybe someone can explain to me how it does.
I find it hard to believe that anyone can see this issue as so black and white. Clearly it is so controversial because it is not a black and white issue and there is a lot of grey area here. And frankly no one should care if I am judging them for the decisions that they make (which for the record I'm actually not because I don't care enough). Everyone should be comfortable enough with their own choices to not mind what some stranger on a chat board thinks of them!
Some thoughts:
Your belief that a life begins at conception is a religious belief and therefore has no place in governing rules about abortion.
Here is where the privilege comes in: People with privilege are people who are much less likely to find themselves in an unfortunate situation where they might have to make the decision to abort their child.
Bookworm gave great examples, but I'll add a few more:
People with privilege are more likely to be able to afford to raise a baby, and therefore are less likely to be in a dire situation and look to abort it.
People with privilege are more likely to have stable families, and therefore are less likely to be in a situation where they would be raising a child in instability who would get a very poor start in life and lack access to the tools to success.
Overall, people without privilege are more likely to be in situations where they have to make really, really hard choices and therefore they are less likely to feel they are in a position to judge.
If you are privileged, you are removed from a lot of these serious social problems and are more likely to feel the freedom to judge.
You know the phrase "There but for the grace of God go I"? If you're privileged, you're less likely to "go" so to speak.
There are degrees of privilege. Our social, economic, and political institutions confer the greatest privilege on white Christian males. As women, we already lack privilege as compared to them.
The concept of privilege makes people uncomfortable, and I think one of the reasons is that they feel like they are being accused of something bad. That's not the case! Anyone who has access to technology and enough flexibility in their day to post on a chat board is privileged to some extent. Where I have a problem is when people use their privilege (their understandable removal from serious threats to their health, financial stability, etc.) to form judgments about others and their decisions.
Part of owning your privilege is saying "Hey, this doesn't affect me, but I don't want to live in a world where other women and children have to face a choice between an abortion in a back alley and raising a child in terrible circumstances, so I'm going to support a women's right to choose and use my privilege as an educated voter to put my religious beliefs aside and advocate for people who might struggle to advocate for themselves."
You say others shouldn't care about what you're saying, but you're voting, right? What you "say" matters, because that opinion could translate into votes that could translate into action.
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| Posted 10/24/16 12:15 PM |
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Kitten1929
LIF Adult
Member since 1/13 6040 total posts
Name:
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by jellybean78
Posted by Straightarrow
Posted by lululu
I find it hard to believe that anyone can see this issue as so black and white. Clearly it is so controversial because it is not a black and white issue and there is a lot of grey area here. And frankly no one should care if I am judging them for the decisions that they make (which for the record I'm actually not because I don't care enough). Everyone should be comfortable enough with their own choices to not mind what some stranger on a chat board thinks of them!
I don't mean to pick on you, but I wanted to just speak out that you should care. You should care about rights and in this example a woman's right to choose what she can or cannot do with her own body.
But this is the gray area. Some people see it as it'as a woman's body and she should do what she wants where other's believe the life inside is another human being with rights...who is right?? Is there any right answer? It depends on your beliefs and who am I to say your beliefs are wrong and who are you to say my beliefs are wrong? KWIM. It's a very gray area.
That said I'm pro-life 100% but I will not judge what others choose to do. Roe V Wade falls low on my priority of issues so while it may be a passionate issue for you and others, you can't expect everyone to care the same about it.
I respect that it's not a high priority for you - and if it is a gray area and there is no common ground then the best we can say is to move on and not impose our beliefs on others and trust that they are just making the best decision for themselves, just like you would do for yourself and your own family.
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| Posted 10/24/16 12:18 PM |
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jellybean78
:)
Member since 8/06 13103 total posts
Name:
Mommy
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by Kitten1929
Posted by jellybean78
Posted by Straightarrow
Posted by lululu
I find it hard to believe that anyone can see this issue as so black and white. Clearly it is so controversial because it is not a black and white issue and there is a lot of grey area here. And frankly no one should care if I am judging them for the decisions that they make (which for the record I'm actually not because I don't care enough). Everyone should be comfortable enough with their own choices to not mind what some stranger on a chat board thinks of them!
I don't mean to pick on you, but I wanted to just speak out that you should care. You should care about rights and in this example a woman's right to choose what she can or cannot do with her own body.
But this is the gray area. Some people see it as it'as a woman's body and she should do what she wants where other's believe the life inside is another human being with rights...who is right?? Is there any right answer? It depends on your beliefs and who am I to say your beliefs are wrong and who are you to say my beliefs are wrong? KWIM. It's a very gray area.
That said I'm pro-life 100% but I will not judge what others choose to do. Roe V Wade falls low on my priority of issues so while it may be a passionate issue for you and others, you can't expect everyone to care the same about it.
I respect that it's not a high priority for you - and if it is a gray area and there is no common ground then the best we can say is to move on and not impose our beliefs on others and trust that they are just making the best decision for themselves, just like you would do for yourself and your own family.
I agree 100%
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| Posted 10/24/16 12:32 PM |
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jellybean78
:)
Member since 8/06 13103 total posts
Name:
Mommy
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by JennP
Posted by lululu
I am not sure if what I am writing is not conveying my point accurately however I think that the fundamental difference between my beliefs and the more "popular" beliefs on this thread are that I do believe that life begins at conception and therefore I do believe that while a woman has a right over her own body, and should have that right under the eyes of the law, I find it unfortunate that those rights have to come at the expense of an innocent, unborn child. I don't personally think that has anything to do with privilege but maybe someone can explain to me how it does.
I find it hard to believe that anyone can see this issue as so black and white. Clearly it is so controversial because it is not a black and white issue and there is a lot of grey area here. And frankly no one should care if I am judging them for the decisions that they make (which for the record I'm actually not because I don't care enough). Everyone should be comfortable enough with their own choices to not mind what some stranger on a chat board thinks of them!
Some thoughts:
Your belief that a life begins at conception is a religious belief and therefore has no place in governing rules about abortion.
Here is where the privilege comes in: People with privilege are people who are much less likely to find themselves in an unfortunate situation where they might have to make the decision to abort their child.
Bookworm gave great examples, but I'll add a few more:
People with privilege are more likely to be able to afford to raise a baby, and therefore are less likely to be in a dire situation and look to abort it.
People with privilege are more likely to have stable families, and therefore are less likely to be in a situation where they would be raising a child in instability who would get a very poor start in life and lack access to the tools to success.
Overall, people without privilege are more likely to be in situations where they have to make really, really hard choices and therefore they are less likely to feel they are in a position to judge.
If you are privileged, you are removed from a lot of these serious social problems and are more likely to feel the freedom to judge.
You know the phrase "There but for the grace of God go I"? If you're privileged, you're less likely to "go" so to speak.
There are degrees of privilege. Our social, economic, and political institutions confer the greatest privilege on white Christian males. As women, we already lack privilege as compared to them.
The concept of privilege makes people uncomfortable, and I think one of the reasons is that they feel like they are being accused of something bad. That's not the case! Anyone who has access to technology and enough flexibility in their day to post on a chat board is privileged to some extent. Where I have a problem is when people use their privilege (their understandable removal from serious threats to their health, financial stability, etc.) to form judgments about others and their decisions.
Part of owning your privilege is saying "Hey, this doesn't affect me, but I don't want to live in a world where other women and children have to face a choice between an abortion in a back alley and raising a child in terrible circumstances, so I'm going to support a women's right to choose and use my privilege as an educated voter to put my religious beliefs aside and advocate for people who might struggle to advocate for themselves."
You say others shouldn't care about what you're saying, but you're voting, right? What you "say" matters, because that opinion could translate into votes that could translate into action.
But why?? If that is not your belief why should you support someones right to choose? In affect you're undermining someones religious belief..their faith by telling them to "own their privilege". You cannot force or want someone to support something that goes against their faith and religious beliefs.
FTR I get where you are going with your under privileged comment but there are plenty of under privileged people that are pro-life. Christians, Jews, etc come from all types of socioeconomic backgrounds so don't classify them all under one bucket.
Like I said before this is a very gray area. You can't force someone to care more or less about this.
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| Posted 10/24/16 12:42 PM |
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eroxgirl
My Loves
Member since 5/05 15697 total posts
Name:
Rebecca
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by jellybean78
But why?? If that is not your belief why should you support someones right to choose? In affect you're undermining someones religious belief..their faith by telling them to "own their privilege". You cannot force or want someone to support something that goes against their faith and religious beliefs.
Because we are supposed to respect people's differences.
Because we're supposed to be a free country, which means we don't all have to do/think/believe the same thing, but we're supposed to value our freedoms which generally means accepting things we wouldn't necessarily choose for ourselves.
By not supporting my choice because of your religious beliefs, you are actually forcing me to submit to your religious beliefs. That's as unamerican as it gets.
Being pro-choice does not make you violate your religious beliefs at all, because you still get your choice. Being pro-life takes my choice away from me.
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| Posted 10/24/16 12:57 PM |
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Otherme
Square head cutie pants
Member since 3/06 6899 total posts
Name:
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by eroxgirl
Being pro-choice does not make you violate your religious beliefs at all, because you still get your choice. Being pro-life takes my choice away from me.
Best thing i've read in this whole debate..
sums it up perfectly
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| Posted 10/24/16 1:04 PM |
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Kitten1929
LIF Adult
Member since 1/13 6040 total posts
Name:
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by jellybean78
But why?? If that is not your belief why should you support someones right to choose? In affect you're undermining someones religious belief..their faith by telling them to "own their privilege". You cannot force or want someone to support something that goes against their faith and religious beliefs.
Because we are supposed to respect people's differences.
Because we're supposed to be a free country, which means we don't all have to do/think/believe the same thing, but we're supposed to value our freedoms which generally means accepting things we wouldn't necessarily choose for ourselves.
By not supporting my choice because of your religious beliefs, you are actually forcing me to submit to your religious beliefs. That's as unamerican as it gets.
Being pro-choice does not make you violate your religious beliefs at all, because you still get your choice. Being pro-life takes my choice away from me.
BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| Posted 10/24/16 1:06 PM |
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jellybean78
:)
Member since 8/06 13103 total posts
Name:
Mommy
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by jellybean78
But why?? If that is not your belief why should you support someones right to choose? In affect you're undermining someones religious belief..their faith by telling them to "own their privilege". You cannot force or want someone to support something that goes against their faith and religious beliefs.
Because we are supposed to respect people's differences.
Because we're supposed to be a free country, which means we don't all have to do/think/believe the same thing, but we're supposed to value our freedoms which generally means accepting things we wouldn't necessarily choose for ourselves.
By not supporting my choice because of your religious beliefs, you are actually forcing me to submit to your religious beliefs. That's as unamerican as it gets.
And the same can be said in reverse. By not supporting my belief you are actually forcing me submit to yours. That's also Un-American or does that not count because my views go against the masses? Too many gray lines here..
And yes while a lot of pro-life supporters are religious not all are so it's not all so don't automatically categorize all pro-life supporters into one basket. Plenty of scientist also believe life begins at conception.
Everyone is entitled to their beliefs equally.
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| Posted 10/24/16 1:09 PM |
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chilltocam
LIF Adult
Member since 11/11 9141 total posts
Name:
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by jellybean78
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by jellybean78
But why?? If that is not your belief why should you support someones right to choose? In affect you're undermining someones religious belief..their faith by telling them to "own their privilege". You cannot force or want someone to support something that goes against their faith and religious beliefs.
Because we are supposed to respect people's differences.
Because we're supposed to be a free country, which means we don't all have to do/think/believe the same thing, but we're supposed to value our freedoms which generally means accepting things we wouldn't necessarily choose for ourselves.
By not supporting my choice because of your religious beliefs, you are actually forcing me to submit to your religious beliefs. That's as unamerican as it gets.
And the same can be said in reverse. By not supporting my belief you are actually forcing me submit to yours. That's also Un-American or does that not count because my views go against the masses? Too many gray lines here..
And yes while a lot of pro-life supporters are religious not all are so it's not all so don't automatically categorize all pro-life supporters into one basket. Plenty of scientist also believe life begins at conception.
Everyone is entitled to their beliefs equally.
Sorry, but your logic is flawed. By not supporting pro-choice policies, you take away choice from someone who wants that choice. You FORCE women to follow YOUR beliefs by not having any other option. When CHOICE is the law of the land, you can CHOOSE what is right for you and someone else can CHOOSE what is right for them. If there is choice, then you are free to choose your religious/moral/ethical beliefs and I am free to choose mine. No one is "forcing you to submit" to their beliefs - everyone gets to choose for themselves.
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| Posted 10/24/16 1:20 PM |
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JennP
LIF Adult
Member since 10/06 3986 total posts
Name:
Jenn
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by chilltocam
Posted by jellybean78
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by jellybean78
But why?? If that is not your belief why should you support someones right to choose? In affect you're undermining someones religious belief..their faith by telling them to "own their privilege". You cannot force or want someone to support something that goes against their faith and religious beliefs.
Because we are supposed to respect people's differences.
Because we're supposed to be a free country, which means we don't all have to do/think/believe the same thing, but we're supposed to value our freedoms which generally means accepting things we wouldn't necessarily choose for ourselves.
By not supporting my choice because of your religious beliefs, you are actually forcing me to submit to your religious beliefs. That's as unamerican as it gets.
And the same can be said in reverse. By not supporting my belief you are actually forcing me submit to yours. That's also Un-American or does that not count because my views go against the masses? Too many gray lines here..
And yes while a lot of pro-life supporters are religious not all are so it's not all so don't automatically categorize all pro-life supporters into one basket. Plenty of scientist also believe life begins at conception.
Everyone is entitled to their beliefs equally.
Sorry, but your logic is flawed. By not supporting pro-choice policies, you take away choice from someone who wants that choice. You FORCE women to follow YOUR beliefs by not having any other option. When CHOICE is the law of the land, you can CHOOSE what is right for you and someone else can CHOOSE what is right for them. If there is choice, then you are free to choose your religious/moral/ethical beliefs and I am free to choose mine. No one is "forcing you to submit" to their beliefs - everyone gets to choose for themselves.
You would never get an abortion?
Cool. Don't get one.
Same logic for same sex marriage.
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| Posted 10/24/16 1:25 PM |
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MC09
arrrghhh!!!!
Member since 2/09 5674 total posts
Name:
Me speaks pirate!
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by jellybean78
Posted by JennP
Posted by lululu
I am not sure if what I am writing is not conveying my point accurately however I think that the fundamental difference between my beliefs and the more "popular" beliefs on this thread are that I do believe that life begins at conception and therefore I do believe that while a woman has a right over her own body, and should have that right under the eyes of the law, I find it unfortunate that those rights have to come at the expense of an innocent, unborn child. I don't personally think that has anything to do with privilege but maybe someone can explain to me how it does.
I find it hard to believe that anyone can see this issue as so black and white. Clearly it is so controversial because it is not a black and white issue and there is a lot of grey area here. And frankly no one should care if I am judging them for the decisions that they make (which for the record I'm actually not because I don't care enough). Everyone should be comfortable enough with their own choices to not mind what some stranger on a chat board thinks of them!
Some thoughts:
Your belief that a life begins at conception is a religious belief and therefore has no place in governing rules about abortion.
Here is where the privilege comes in: People with privilege are people who are much less likely to find themselves in an unfortunate situation where they might have to make the decision to abort their child.
Bookworm gave great examples, but I'll add a few more:
People with privilege are more likely to be able to afford to raise a baby, and therefore are less likely to be in a dire situation and look to abort it.
People with privilege are more likely to have stable families, and therefore are less likely to be in a situation where they would be raising a child in instability who would get a very poor start in life and lack access to the tools to success.
Overall, people without privilege are more likely to be in situations where they have to make really, really hard choices and therefore they are less likely to feel they are in a position to judge.
If you are privileged, you are removed from a lot of these serious social problems and are more likely to feel the freedom to judge.
You know the phrase "There but for the grace of God go I"? If you're privileged, you're less likely to "go" so to speak.
There are degrees of privilege. Our social, economic, and political institutions confer the greatest privilege on white Christian males. As women, we already lack privilege as compared to them.
The concept of privilege makes people uncomfortable, and I think one of the reasons is that they feel like they are being accused of something bad. That's not the case! Anyone who has access to technology and enough flexibility in their day to post on a chat board is privileged to some extent. Where I have a problem is when people use their privilege (their understandable removal from serious threats to their health, financial stability, etc.) to form judgments about others and their decisions.
Part of owning your privilege is saying "Hey, this doesn't affect me, but I don't want to live in a world where other women and children have to face a choice between an abortion in a back alley and raising a child in terrible circumstances, so I'm going to support a women's right to choose and use my privilege as an educated voter to put my religious beliefs aside and advocate for people who might struggle to advocate for themselves."
You say others shouldn't care about what you're saying, but you're voting, right? What you "say" matters, because that opinion could translate into votes that could translate into action.
But why?? If that is not your belief why should you support someones right to choose? In affect you're undermining someones religious belief..their faith by telling them to "own their privilege". You cannot force or want someone to support something that goes against their faith and religious beliefs.
FTR I get where you are going with your under privileged comment but there are plenty of under privileged people that are pro-life. Christians, Jews, etc come from all types of socioeconomic backgrounds so don't classify them all under one bucket.
Like I said before this is a very gray area. You can't force someone to care more or less about this.
But nobody is FORCING you to get an abortion. If you have strong religious beliefs, go forth and multiply. How is SOMEONE ELSE'S uterus and what they choose to do with it affecting your religious beliefs?
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| Posted 10/24/16 1:26 PM |
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Kitten1929
LIF Adult
Member since 1/13 6040 total posts
Name:
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Final Presidential Debate
I fear this has just devolved into the same tired debate.
Jellybean thinks she's being forced to submit to the government's ideology on abortion. Even though we are a secular country, in which case I respectfully submit that her religious beliefs simply have no bearing - Constitutionally speaking - on the matter.
So keep your personal beliefs personal but don't ever think the government is supposed to take that into consideration.
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| Posted 10/24/16 1:37 PM |
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jellybean78
:)
Member since 8/06 13103 total posts
Name:
Mommy
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by Kitten1929
I fear this has just devolved into the same tired debate.
Jellybean thinks she's being forced to submit to the government's ideology on abortion. Even though we are a secular country, in which case I respectfully submit that her religious beliefs simply have no bearing - Constitutionally speaking - on the matter.
So keep your personal beliefs personal but don't ever think the government is supposed to take that into consideration.
Stop being super defensive and try looking at both sides of the argument. Did you read what I wrote???
First you are categorizing everyone one who is pro-life into one religious basket which is simply not true. So where do the non-religious pro choice people fall?? They're secular Americans. What about their beliefs? Are you going to tell me that 100% of people who are pro-life are religious?? You really don't believe that do you?? I hope not..
And there is argument that life begins at conception and there is argument that it doesn't. How do you prove who is right and who is wrong?
And I'm sorry but my beliefs make me who I am same as yours make you who you are. I am no less American than you so why do I have to support something I don't believe in? Should I do so to satisfy the masses?? Last time I checked the beauty of living in this country is that you don't have to conform to anyone's views, religious, political or otherwise.
I would think that we should be open minded enough to understand that and respect peoples differences but from the things I have seen and read here lately that's simply not the case.
I"m not forcing you to support my pro-life beliefs why should I be forced to support yours?? That was what I responded too.
Like I said I don't care what anyone does with their bodies but I am not going to be strong armed into becoming pro-choice because someone else wants the right to an abortion.
I"m not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine..period. Learn to respect someone's beliefs without having to call people names, be sarcastic or condescending..that's called being open minded and mature.
Message edited 10/24/2016 2:12:46 PM.
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| Posted 10/24/16 2:12 PM |
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eroxgirl
My Loves
Member since 5/05 15697 total posts
Name:
Rebecca
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by jellybean78
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by jellybean78
But why?? If that is not your belief why should you support someones right to choose? In affect you're undermining someones religious belief..their faith by telling them to "own their privilege". You cannot force or want someone to support something that goes against their faith and religious beliefs.
Because we are supposed to respect people's differences.
Because we're supposed to be a free country, which means we don't all have to do/think/believe the same thing, but we're supposed to value our freedoms which generally means accepting things we wouldn't necessarily choose for ourselves.
By not supporting my choice because of your religious beliefs, you are actually forcing me to submit to your religious beliefs. That's as unamerican as it gets.
And the same can be said in reverse. By not supporting my belief you are actually forcing me submit to yours. That's also Un-American or does that not count because my views go against the masses? Too many gray lines here..
And yes while a lot of pro-life supporters are religious not all are so it's not all so don't automatically categorize all pro-life supporters into one basket. Plenty of scientist also believe life begins at conception.
Everyone is entitled to their beliefs equally.
No, it doesn't. False equivalency.
So long as you are not being forced to HAVE an abortion, you are not being forced to submit to anything. You don't have to like it - kind of like free speech. You don't have to do it. You just can't tell me that I can't do it. It's called FREEDOM. Pro-lifers want to strip freedom from women. You can argue it all you'd like but that's it stripped down to it's bones.
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| Posted 10/24/16 2:22 PM |
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lululu
LIF Adult
Member since 7/05 9511 total posts
Name:
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by JennP
Some thoughts:
Your belief that a life begins at conception is a religious belief and therefore has no place in governing rules about abortion.
Here is where the privilege comes in: People with privilege are people who are much less likely to find themselves in an unfortunate situation where they might have to make the decision to abort their child.
Bookworm gave great examples, but I'll add a few more:
People with privilege are more likely to be able to afford to raise a baby, and therefore are less likely to be in a dire situation and look to abort it.
People with privilege are more likely to have stable families, and therefore are less likely to be in a situation where they would be raising a child in instability who would get a very poor start in life and lack access to the tools to success.
Overall, people without privilege are more likely to be in situations where they have to make really, really hard choices and therefore they are less likely to feel they are in a position to judge.
If you are privileged, you are removed from a lot of these serious social problems and are more likely to feel the freedom to judge.
You know the phrase "There but for the grace of God go I"? If you're privileged, you're less likely to "go" so to speak.
There are degrees of privilege. Our social, economic, and political institutions confer the greatest privilege on white Christian males. As women, we already lack privilege as compared to them.
The concept of privilege makes people uncomfortable, and I think one of the reasons is that they feel like they are being accused of something bad. That's not the case! Anyone who has access to technology and enough flexibility in their day to post on a chat board is privileged to some extent. Where I have a problem is when people use their privilege (their understandable removal from serious threats to their health, financial stability, etc.) to form judgments about others and their decisions.
Part of owning your privilege is saying "Hey, this doesn't affect me, but I don't want to live in a world where other women and children have to face a choice between an abortion in a back alley and raising a child in terrible circumstances, so I'm going to support a women's right to choose and use my privilege as an educated voter to put my religious beliefs aside and advocate for people who might struggle to advocate for themselves."
You say others shouldn't care about what you're saying, but you're voting, right? What you "say" matters, because that opinion could translate into votes that could translate into action.
First, my belief that life begins at conception is not a religious belief. As I stated before I am not religious, I do not believe in god or any higher power. I am not spiritual at all. My belief that life begins at conception is based on science. It's based on being able to look at a sonogram picture and see what an 8/10/12 week old fetus looks like. There is no denying that a lot of the baby is formed. It is alive. At least to me it is.
I just think you need to take privilege out of the equation for abortion in accidental pregnancies because sex is a voluntary activity that everyone is well aware could result in a pregnancy. It is relatively simple to avoid if you don't want it to happen. Now if you are telling me that it happens because someone couldn't afford to get condoms, yeah sure fine, I just think that's unrealistic and probably not the reason most people end up at planned parenthood.
All of that being said - these are my beliefs. I am not pro-life because I don't want to impose my beliefs on others. I respect that not everyone believes what I believe. And since I am pro choice and not imposing my beliefs on anyone else, no one should care that I don't personally think it's right to end a life just because you had a little too much to drink one night and forgot to use a condom.
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| Posted 10/24/16 2:30 PM |
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chilltocam
LIF Adult
Member since 11/11 9141 total posts
Name:
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by jellybean78
Posted by Kitten1929
I fear this has just devolved into the same tired debate.
Jellybean thinks she's being forced to submit to the government's ideology on abortion. Even though we are a secular country, in which case I respectfully submit that her religious beliefs simply have no bearing - Constitutionally speaking - on the matter.
So keep your personal beliefs personal but don't ever think the government is supposed to take that into consideration.
I would think that we should be open minded enough to understand that and respect peoples differences but from the things I have seen and read here lately that's simply not the case.
I"m not forcing you to support my pro-life beliefs why should I be forced to support yours?? That was what I responded too.
Like I said I don't care what anyone does with their bodies but I am not going to be strong armed into becoming pro-choice because someone else wants the right to an abortion.
But that's just it - by taking away one person's choice (even if it is something YOU wouldn't choose), you are disrespecting the rights of some to make choices you don't agree with. And if Roe v. Wade goes away (or continues to be diluted), you ARE forcing everyone to be "pro-life" - legally they have no option. And if you really don't care what others do then let there be choice - you can make yours and I can make mine
Message edited 10/24/2016 2:35:34 PM.
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| Posted 10/24/16 2:35 PM |
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mommyagain3
LIF Infant
Member since 6/15 144 total posts
Name:
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by lululu
Posted by JennP
Some thoughts:
Your belief that a life begins at conception is a religious belief and therefore has no place in governing rules about abortion.
Here is where the privilege comes in: People with privilege are people who are much less likely to find themselves in an unfortunate situation where they might have to make the decision to abort their child.
Bookworm gave great examples, but I'll add a few more:
People with privilege are more likely to be able to afford to raise a baby, and therefore are less likely to be in a dire situation and look to abort it.
People with privilege are more likely to have stable families, and therefore are less likely to be in a situation where they would be raising a child in instability who would get a very poor start in life and lack access to the tools to success.
Overall, people without privilege are more likely to be in situations where they have to make really, really hard choices and therefore they are less likely to feel they are in a position to judge.
If you are privileged, you are removed from a lot of these serious social problems and are more likely to feel the freedom to judge.
You know the phrase "There but for the grace of God go I"? If you're privileged, you're less likely to "go" so to speak.
There are degrees of privilege. Our social, economic, and political institutions confer the greatest privilege on white Christian males. As women, we already lack privilege as compared to them.
The concept of privilege makes people uncomfortable, and I think one of the reasons is that they feel like they are being accused of something bad. That's not the case! Anyone who has access to technology and enough flexibility in their day to post on a chat board is privileged to some extent. Where I have a problem is when people use their privilege (their understandable removal from serious threats to their health, financial stability, etc.) to form judgments about others and their decisions.
Part of owning your privilege is saying "Hey, this doesn't affect me, but I don't want to live in a world where other women and children have to face a choice between an abortion in a back alley and raising a child in terrible circumstances, so I'm going to support a women's right to choose and use my privilege as an educated voter to put my religious beliefs aside and advocate for people who might struggle to advocate for themselves."
You say others shouldn't care about what you're saying, but you're voting, right? What you "say" matters, because that opinion could translate into votes that could translate into action.
First, my belief that life begins at conception is not a religious belief. As I stated before I am not religious, I do not believe in god or any higher power. I am not spiritual at all. My belief that life begins at conception is based on science. It's based on being able to look at a sonogram picture and see what an 8/10/12 week old fetus looks like. There is no denying that a lot of the baby is formed. It is alive. At least to me it is.
I just think you need to take privilege out of the equation for abortion in accidental pregnancies because sex is a voluntary activity that everyone is well aware could result in a pregnancy. It is relatively simple to avoid if you don't want it to happen. Now if you are telling me that it happens because someone couldn't afford to get condoms, yeah sure fine, I just think that's unrealistic and probably not the reason most people end up at planned parenthood.
All of that being said - these are my beliefs. I am not pro-life because I don't want to impose my beliefs on others. I respect that not everyone believes what I believe. And since I am pro choice and not imposing my beliefs on anyone else, no one should care that I don't personally think it's right to end a life just because you had a little too much to drink one night and forgot to use a condom.
Yes, sex is voluntary but why is only one party responsible for the outcome? It takes 2 to make a baby but the government only wants to impose "their" will on a woman's body. Men are not forced to take any responsibility in parenting whatsoever; until forced to pay support. Why does the woman have to simply avoid sex to avoid the complication of pregnancy? You can never take the privileged out of accidental pregnancies because one party ( the man) always have the privilege of walking away without consequence.
Message edited 10/24/2016 2:45:48 PM.
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| Posted 10/24/16 2:45 PM |
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jellybean78
:)
Member since 8/06 13103 total posts
Name:
Mommy
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by jellybean78
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by jellybean78
But why?? If that is not your belief why should you support someones right to choose? In affect you're undermining someones religious belief..their faith by telling them to "own their privilege". You cannot force or want someone to support something that goes against their faith and religious beliefs.
Because we are supposed to respect people's differences.
Because we're supposed to be a free country, which means we don't all have to do/think/believe the same thing, but we're supposed to value our freedoms which generally means accepting things we wouldn't necessarily choose for ourselves.
By not supporting my choice because of your religious beliefs, you are actually forcing me to submit to your religious beliefs. That's as unamerican as it gets.
And the same can be said in reverse. By not supporting my belief you are actually forcing me submit to yours. That's also Un-American or does that not count because my views go against the masses? Too many gray lines here..
And yes while a lot of pro-life supporters are religious not all are so it's not all so don't automatically categorize all pro-life supporters into one basket. Plenty of scientist also believe life begins at conception.
Everyone is entitled to their beliefs equally.
No, it doesn't. False equivalency.
So long as you are not being forced to HAVE an abortion, you are not being forced to submit to anything. You don't have to like it - kind of like free speech. You don't have to do it. You just can't tell me that I can't do it. It's called FREEDOM. Pro-lifers want to strip freedom from women. You can argue it all you'd like but that's it stripped down to it's bones.
According to Forbes a pretty bipartisan source, around 24% or so of abortions are subsidized with tax payers dollars. I am a pro-life tax payer whose tax dollars are subsidizing abortions.... you tell me what's the difference?? Did I have a choice where my tax dollars went??
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| Posted 10/24/16 3:09 PM |
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eroxgirl
My Loves
Member since 5/05 15697 total posts
Name:
Rebecca
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by jellybean78
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by jellybean78
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by jellybean78
But why?? If that is not your belief why should you support someones right to choose? In affect you're undermining someones religious belief..their faith by telling them to "own their privilege". You cannot force or want someone to support something that goes against their faith and religious beliefs.
Because we are supposed to respect people's differences.
Because we're supposed to be a free country, which means we don't all have to do/think/believe the same thing, but we're supposed to value our freedoms which generally means accepting things we wouldn't necessarily choose for ourselves.
By not supporting my choice because of your religious beliefs, you are actually forcing me to submit to your religious beliefs. That's as unamerican as it gets.
And the same can be said in reverse. By not supporting my belief you are actually forcing me submit to yours. That's also Un-American or does that not count because my views go against the masses? Too many gray lines here..
And yes while a lot of pro-life supporters are religious not all are so it's not all so don't automatically categorize all pro-life supporters into one basket. Plenty of scientist also believe life begins at conception.
Everyone is entitled to their beliefs equally.
No, it doesn't. False equivalency.
So long as you are not being forced to HAVE an abortion, you are not being forced to submit to anything. You don't have to like it - kind of like free speech. You don't have to do it. You just can't tell me that I can't do it. It's called FREEDOM. Pro-lifers want to strip freedom from women. You can argue it all you'd like but that's it stripped down to it's bones.
According to Forbes a pretty bipartisan source, around 24% or so of abortions are subsidized with tax payers dollars. I am a pro-life tax payer whose tax dollars are subsidizing abortions.... you tell me what's the difference?? Did I have a choice where my tax dollars went??
How much of your tax dollars go to welfare, WIC, public housing, food stamps?
My tax dollars go to public schools but I send my kids to private..
I hear your argument. It doesn't take into consideration that if that 24% of abortions don't happen, your tax dollars are likely going to pay for those children... federally subsidized day care, public housing, WIC, food stamps, welfare... for 18 years.
Or not, because I know there's a fight to reduce and maybe even eliminate welfare as well. So then those babies whose lives you protected - that same 24% of abortions that you helped pay for (because if you can't afford your own abortion I'm pretty sure you can't afford to support a child for 18 years) can be homeless, sick, hungry and die in the street. And well, obviously that's much better.
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| Posted 10/24/16 3:21 PM |
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mommyagain3
LIF Infant
Member since 6/15 144 total posts
Name:
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by jellybean78
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by jellybean78
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by jellybean78
But why?? If that is not your belief why should you support someones right to choose? In affect you're undermining someones religious belief..their faith by telling them to "own their privilege". You cannot force or want someone to support something that goes against their faith and religious beliefs.
Because we are supposed to respect people's differences.
Because we're supposed to be a free country, which means we don't all have to do/think/believe the same thing, but we're supposed to value our freedoms which generally means accepting things we wouldn't necessarily choose for ourselves.
By not supporting my choice because of your religious beliefs, you are actually forcing me to submit to your religious beliefs. That's as unamerican as it gets.
And the same can be said in reverse. By not supporting my belief you are actually forcing me submit to yours. That's also Un-American or does that not count because my views go against the masses? Too many gray lines here..
And yes while a lot of pro-life supporters are religious not all are so it's not all so don't automatically categorize all pro-life supporters into one basket. Plenty of scientist also believe life begins at conception.
Everyone is entitled to their beliefs equally.
No, it doesn't. False equivalency.
So long as you are not being forced to HAVE an abortion, you are not being forced to submit to anything. You don't have to like it - kind of like free speech. You don't have to do it. You just can't tell me that I can't do it. It's called FREEDOM. Pro-lifers want to strip freedom from women. You can argue it all you'd like but that's it stripped down to it's bones.
According to Forbes a pretty bipartisan source, around 24% or so of abortions are subsidized with tax payers dollars. I am a pro-life tax payer whose tax dollars are subsidizing abortions.... you tell me what's the difference?? Did I have a choice where my tax dollars went??
That number is skewed because it's equating federal aid for eligible women as a percentage of those that receive healthcare subsidies and Medicaid only covers abortion is the cases of rape, incest or because the mother's life is endangered. And not all private insurer's will cover abortion either. Federal funds do not subsidize abortions except for the incidences above. Refer to the Hyde Amendment which is information regarding the federal structuring of abortion and the prohibiting of such.
Message edited 10/24/2016 3:37:15 PM.
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| Posted 10/24/16 3:34 PM |
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