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Jenhos
Maeve
Member since 6/05 3273 total posts
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History
What should be done with our history? There are many monuments that stand for all kinds of things (good and bad depending who you ask) all over this country. As I watched on the news last night , people pulled down a confederate statue. Should would remove all these symbols? Put them in museums? I feel like our children don't learn a lot of history at school anymore. Where do we go from here?
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Posted 8/15/17 11:29 AM  |
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stinger
LIF Adult
Member since 11/11 4971 total posts
Name:
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Re: History
Of course future generations need to learn from history but in instances of hate and divide based on race and religion best that the truth not be glorified and leave the details in text books. I dont really understand your good and bad reference?
What did Germany do with its "bad" historical items? I dont think they are on diaplay for people to see or honor?
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| Posted 8/15/17 11:53 AM |
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Jenhos
Maeve
Member since 6/05 3273 total posts
Name:
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Re: History
My reference to good and bad is that people portray things differently so what may symbolize something for one person may not symbolize it the same way for others (I am not referencing what is happening today although some will say it is good regardless of my beliefs). There are museums where you can see things/images from concentration camps and learn about them. I don't think this glorifies them but gives people a way to learn about them, and understand the true horror of what they were. You can still see parts of the Berlin wall. Again I don't think seeing these things necessarily glorifies it. In all parts of this country there are things that represent past wars that we participated in. Not everyone agreed with them yet there are museums, monuments and books dedicated to them.
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| Posted 8/15/17 12:08 PM |
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MC09
arrrghhh!!!!
Member since 2/09 5674 total posts
Name:
Me speaks pirate!
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Re: History
I think there's a big difference between an exhibit at a history museum and a statue or a flag displayed as a symbol to glorify and honor hate in the town square or in a city hall.
I don't understand what you mean by "although some will say it's good regardless of my beliefs". Do you mean you are against taking down the statue and what it represents?
Eta: I would hope they would never display a swastika in a German town hall or a statue of hitler even though it is a prominent symbol of that country's history.
Message edited 8/15/2017 12:19:59 PM.
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| Posted 8/15/17 12:17 PM |
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MichLiz213
Life is Good!
Member since 7/07 7979 total posts
Name:
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Re: History
Posted by MC09
I think there's a big difference between an exhibit at a history museum and a statue or a flag displayed as a symbol to glorify and honor hate in the town square or in a city hall.
I don't understand what you mean by "although some will say it's good regardless of my beliefs". Do you mean you are against taking down the statue and what it represents?
Eta: I would hope they would never display a swastika in a German town hall or a statue of hitler even though it is a prominent symbol of that country's history.
I agree with this.
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| Posted 8/15/17 12:22 PM |
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Jenhos
Maeve
Member since 6/05 3273 total posts
Name:
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Re: History
Posted by MC09
I think there's a big difference between an exhibit at a history museum and a statue or a flag displayed as a symbol to glorify and honor hate in the town square or in a city hall.
I don't understand what you mean by "although some will say it's good regardless of my beliefs". Do you mean you are against taking down the statue and what it represents?
Eta: I would hope they would never display a swastika in a German town hall or a statue of hitler even though it is a prominent symbol of that country's history.
That was my question. Should we start removing all of these things and either destroy them or put them in museums for historical purposes?
What I meant by "although some will say it's good regardless of my beliefs" is that everyone has their own beliefs. I may find a confederate flag offensive but others may not. That is their choice. Regardless of how you feel about that flag it has a place in our history and people have the right to feel how they want about it.
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| Posted 8/15/17 12:35 PM |
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MC09
arrrghhh!!!!
Member since 2/09 5674 total posts
Name:
Me speaks pirate!
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Re: History
Posted by Jenhos
Posted by MC09
I think there's a big difference between an exhibit at a history museum and a statue or a flag displayed as a symbol to glorify and honor hate in the town square or in a city hall.
I don't understand what you mean by "although some will say it's good regardless of my beliefs". Do you mean you are against taking down the statue and what it represents?
Eta: I would hope they would never display a swastika in a German town hall or a statue of hitler even though it is a prominent symbol of that country's history.
That was my question. Should we start removing all of these things and either destroy them or put them in museums for historical purposes?
What I meant by "although some will say it's good regardless of my beliefs" is that everyone has their own beliefs. I may find a confederate flag offensive but others may not. That is their choice. Regardless of how you feel about that flag it has a place in our history and people have the right to feel how they want about it.
They should absolutely be removed and destroyed. I don't agree with moving a statue of Robert E. Lee from the town square and putting it in a museum because it's still a STATUE, its sole purpose to honor the individual. It would just be moving their "hero" to another location. If a museum wanted to post photographs of him and other artifacts for a realistic and educational exhibit for the sole purpose of history and not to honor his life or to paint him in a favorable light as some hero then it would be different. I wouldn't agree with what he stood for but I'd understand it is for historical and educational purposes. I doubt many of the people from this group are regular museum goers.
I think the difference between both the US and Germany is that Germany, and most Germans, are ashamed, disgusted, and humiliated about their history and they would rather not acknowledge it in any way, but in the US you still have a sect of the population and some local GOVERNMENTS (no form of the US government, state or local or otherwise should be using tax dollars to honor this aspect of our past in any form! it's bad enough there are citizens that do, the government should not be taking part in this, and should be shutting that ish down) that not only honor our past but they take great pride in it with hate-filled hearts.
Message edited 8/15/2017 12:59:28 PM.
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| Posted 8/15/17 12:57 PM |
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JME78
LIF Adult
Member since 11/09 3672 total posts
Name:
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History
There is no reason that PUBLIC buildings and PUBLIC grounds should house these statues. There is no reason a PUBLIC building should display a confederate flag.
If someone feels strongly about the flag, they are welcome to display it in their home. But taxpayer money supports these buildings, and there is no place for these symbols there. Yes its history, but a statue in a town square doesn't provide any context.
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| Posted 8/15/17 1:41 PM |
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Xelindrya
Mommy's little YouTube Star!
Member since 8/05 14470 total posts
Name:
Veronica
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History
I like the museum idea.
The problem is isn't it's just one history. Some of the statues represent men who were heroes BEFORE the civil war. American heroes, West Point Grads, Vets of previous wars that they fought for our nation and should have been honored. The civil war broke out and lines were literally drawn. In healing a nation we need to see both sides of the History the before and the after.
That's what is different here than Nazi Germany. Some of these heroes were heroes before and after for America. These men applied for amnesty per Lincoln's orders. History shows that Johnson then proclaimed amnesty to all by Christmas 1868.
It's just not equal to what happened in Europe. That said, I think a National Museum makes sense.
I think this over reaction is a dangerous precedent to set. We have a process, let's follow it.
Condolezza Rice made a statement about this. You don't have to honor the purposes to honor the people whose history now shows they were on the other side of history, but you better be able to remind people.
I'm ok with removing them. I am ok with relocating them. I'm not sure I'm ok with the surrounding violence that's going along with this.
To quote the Beatles:
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know you can count me out
Message edited 8/15/2017 2:33:19 PM.
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| Posted 8/15/17 2:23 PM |
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MC09
arrrghhh!!!!
Member since 2/09 5674 total posts
Name:
Me speaks pirate!
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Re: History
Posted by Xelindrya
The problem is isn't it's just one history. Some of the statues represent men who were heroes BEFORE the civil war. American heroes, West Point Grads, Vets of previous wars that they fought for our nation and should have been honored. The civil war broke out and lines were literally drawn. In healing a nation we need to see both sides of the History the before and the after.
In my opinion their role in the Confederacy negates any good they may have done before it and they became a symbol of hate. The epigraph on the statue of the confederate soldier in Durham stated "In memory of the boys who wore the gray". That statue and other symbols like it have no place at a county courthouse.
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| Posted 8/15/17 3:27 PM |
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stinger
LIF Adult
Member since 11/11 4971 total posts
Name:
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Re: History
Posted by MC09
Posted by Xelindrya
The problem is isn't it's just one history. Some of the statues represent men who were heroes BEFORE the civil war. American heroes, West Point Grads, Vets of previous wars that they fought for our nation and should have been honored. The civil war broke out and lines were literally drawn. In healing a nation we need to see both sides of the History the before and the after.
In my opinion their role in the Confederacy negates any good they may have done before it and they became a symbol of hate. The epigraph on the statue of the confederate soldier in Durham stated "In memory of the boys who wore the gray". That statue and other symbols like it have no place at a county courthouse.
Exactly. How can anyone justify evil?
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| Posted 8/15/17 3:33 PM |
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SusiBee
. . . . .
Member since 3/09 8268 total posts
Name:
S
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History
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
That was posted on the wall of my high school history class.
35 years later and I can still remember it.
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| Posted 8/15/17 3:54 PM |
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Mill188
LIF Adult
Member since 3/09 3073 total posts
Name:
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Re: History
History (good or bad) should never be erased.
You all realize that while slavery became the big issue in the civil war, it was not the only cause of the war, right? Almost 160 years later scholars are still debating the actual factors that caused the south to succeed from the union.
Civil War Trust
don't think statues of Robert E. Lee or Stonewall Jackson are symbols of hatred to everyone. Read some biographies of the men....you may be surprised as to why or how they ended up fighting for the confederacy. I don't think either man was inherently evil. The civil war was a horrible and awful time for our country with good and bad on both sides.
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| Posted 8/15/17 4:17 PM |
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Xelindrya
Mommy's little YouTube Star!
Member since 8/05 14470 total posts
Name:
Veronica
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History
I'm not justifying evil or supporting it. It belongs in our past and history to be learned from. But I also didn't make my statement for one statue or monument. It was for all in general. Read what I wrote. I said some of those statutes. I didn't even say all. You tear down one justified, then you tear down the next and the next until when?
I also clearly said BEFORE and after. I didn't say the confederacy itself. But there was a south BEFORE they existed. One existed after as well. Men went from the South with southern pride to the north and fought for the union. You erase that and you forget we had brother fighting brother, father fighting son. There was a before as in BEFORE the confederacy and yes, good came from it. It's called America.
Again, I actually S U P P O R T the removal of the monuments and the statues but in a respectful proper way.
To say that the civil war negates any good the people who lived in the south represented takes away the underground railroad and all the innocents who lived there. I can't and won't do that. War is ugly but some good came from it even the ugly. We must keep those memories alive and learn.
Otherwise why don't we just judge all of a country in the middle east for the behavior of a few bad people? I don't. I thought that was what we were supposed to have learned. I don't judge ALL Germans as jew haters. Given I know German Jews that would be difficult. I also know a German who sincerely finds it difficult to be around Russians. So there's always a story learned by History and how it's told.
I fear this sets up "Lets all hate the South" mania. To me, that's dangerous. Not just because I live here, but because I've lived elsewhere (not just NY, but California). Not every state was part of the civil war. What do we do then, make Washington state and Idaho choose sides?
Bottom line don't twist my words. I did not "support evil". I agree. Taxpayers don't want it. VOTE it away. Don't like that vote the seated government away. But open violence isn't the answer.
I think a museum is a good idea. Heck I thought the Noah Arc was dumb but I do believe local taxpayers voted it in and it was built. There's a process. That's why I love my country.
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| Posted 8/15/17 4:22 PM |
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MC09
arrrghhh!!!!
Member since 2/09 5674 total posts
Name:
Me speaks pirate!
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Re: History
Posted by Xelindrya
I'm not justifying evil or supporting it. It belongs in our past and history to be learned from. But I also didn't make my statement for one statue or monument. It was for all in general. Read what I wrote. I said some of those statutes. I didn't even say all. You tear down one justified, then you tear down the next and the next until when?
I also clearly said BEFORE and after. I didn't say the confederacy itself. But there was a south BEFORE they existed. One existed after as well. Men went from the South with southern pride to the north and fought for the union. You erase that and you forget we had brother fighting brother, father fighting son. There was a before as in BEFORE the confederacy and yes, good came from it. It's called America.
Again, I actually S U P P O R T the removal of the monuments and the statues but in a respectful proper way.
To say that the civil war negates any good the people who lived in the south represented takes away the underground railroad and all the innocents who lived there. I can't and won't do that. War is ugly but some good came from it even the ugly. We must keep those memories alive and learn.
Otherwise why don't we just judge all of a country in the middle east for the behavior of a few bad people? I don't. I thought that was what we were supposed to have learned. I don't judge ALL Germans as jew haters. Given I know German Jews that would be difficult. I also know a German who sincerely finds it difficult to be around Russians. So there's always a story learned by History and how it's told.
I fear this sets up "Lets all hate the South" mania. To me, that's dangerous. Not just because I live here, but because I've lived elsewhere (not just NY, but California). Not every state was part of the civil war. What do we do then, make Washington state and Idaho choose sides?
Bottom line don't twist my words. I did not "support evil". I agree. Taxpayers don't want it. VOTE it away. Don't like that vote the seated government away. But open violence isn't the answer.
I think a museum is a good idea. Heck I thought the Noah Arc was dumb but I do believe local taxpayers voted it in and it was built. There's a process. That's why I love my country.
I made no mention of people or innocents in the South. I was replying specifically to your response on war heroes and generals. And to the statue dedicated to the boys in gray. That statue is/was honoring one specific stance.
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| Posted 8/15/17 4:49 PM |
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stinger
LIF Adult
Member since 11/11 4971 total posts
Name:
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Re: History
Is George Washington next?
-DJT quote today
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| Posted 8/15/17 4:57 PM |
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Pumpkin1
LIF Adult
Member since 12/05 3715 total posts
Name:
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Re: History
Posted by MC09
Posted by Xelindrya
The problem is isn't it's just one history. Some of the statues represent men who were heroes BEFORE the civil war. American heroes, West Point Grads, Vets of previous wars that they fought for our nation and should have been honored. The civil war broke out and lines were literally drawn. In healing a nation we need to see both sides of the History the before and the after.
In my opinion their role in the Confederacy negates any good they may have done before it and they became a symbol of hate. The epigraph on the statue of the confederate soldier in Durham stated "In memory of the boys who wore the gray". That statue and other symbols like it have no place at a county courthouse.
I don't quite agree that the Confederacy is a symbol of hate but it is a symbol of a bygone era where slavery and racism overshadow any niceties they may have generated (Southern Belles, Cotillions, etc.) I mean, the Confederacy no longer exists, so honoring it and making efforts to keep it as part of every day life seems wrong and subversive.
No-one should forget history, but people should be able to celebrate their Southern culture without glorifying what was once considered an enemy of the USA.
Message edited 8/15/2017 5:38:47 PM.
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| Posted 8/15/17 5:38 PM |
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Jenhos
Maeve
Member since 6/05 3273 total posts
Name:
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Re: History
What do we do with statues of President that were slave owners?
Condoleeza Rice made some good comments about not sanitizing our history.
“When you start wiping out your history, sanitizing your history to make you feel better, it’s a bad thing,” Rice said.
“I’m a firm believer in ‘keep your history before you.’ And so I don’t actually want to rename things that were named for slave owners,” Rice replied. “I want us to have to look at the names and recognize what they did, and be able to tell our kids what they did and for them to have a sense of their own history.”
I love everything she said. I wish she would run for president!
Message edited 8/15/2017 9:23:23 PM.
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| Posted 8/15/17 8:10 PM |
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AAD
LIF Zygote
Member since 2/09 32 total posts
Name:
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Re: History
Amen to Condy Rice.
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| Posted 8/15/17 9:12 PM |
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stinger
LIF Adult
Member since 11/11 4971 total posts
Name:
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Re: History
Posted by Jenhos
What do we do with statues of President that were slave owners?
Condoleeza Rice made some good comments about not sanitizing our history.
“When you start wiping out your history, sanitizing your history to make you feel better, it’s a bad thing,” Rice said.
“I’m a firm believer in ‘keep your history before you.’ And so I don’t actually want to rename things that were named for slave owners,” Rice replied. “I want us to have to look at the names and recognize what they did, and be able to tell our kids what they did and for them to have a sense of their own history.”
I love everything she said. I wish she would run for president!
But are people doing that? Especially those like in VA that wanted the statue to stay? Are they recognizing what they did good and bad? I dont think so.
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| Posted 8/15/17 9:46 PM |
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Jenhos
Maeve
Member since 6/05 3273 total posts
Name:
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Re: History
Posted by stinger
Posted by Jenhos
What do we do with statues of President that were slave owners?
Condoleeza Rice made some good comments about not sanitizing our history.
“When you start wiping out your history, sanitizing your history to make you feel better, it’s a bad thing,” Rice said.
“I’m a firm believer in ‘keep your history before you.’ And so I don’t actually want to rename things that were named for slave owners,” Rice replied. “I want us to have to look at the names and recognize what they did, and be able to tell our kids what they did and for them to have a sense of their own history.”
I love everything she said. I wish she would run for president!
But are people doing that? Especially those like in VA that wanted the statue to stay? Are they recognizing what they did good and bad? I dont think so.
I haven't heard anyone speaking intelligently or acting sanely on either side of this. All I have seen is people fueling violence (on both sides) Its like the rioting in Furgeson. When it was peaceful, it sent a message. The day they started looting and destroying property their message was gone. They become just as bad as the other side. Should we just let people deface statues all across the country and say it's ok. The police stood by and watched today. God forbid someone was hurt when it fell. They would be quick to sue. People need to settle down and think before they act. Taking matters into your own hands isn't the answer. The police need to restore order. Decisions on these monuments need to be made.
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| Posted 8/15/17 10:23 PM |
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MC09
arrrghhh!!!!
Member since 2/09 5674 total posts
Name:
Me speaks pirate!
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Re: History
It's not "wiping out" or erasing or changing history. The history will always be there and will never be changed. We can only change how we choose to define it.
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| Posted 8/15/17 10:36 PM |
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stinger
LIF Adult
Member since 11/11 4971 total posts
Name:
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Re: History
Posted by Jenhos
Posted by stinger
Posted by Jenhos
What do we do with statues of President that were slave owners?
Condoleeza Rice made some good comments about not sanitizing our history.
“When you start wiping out your history, sanitizing your history to make you feel better, it’s a bad thing,” Rice said.
“I’m a firm believer in ‘keep your history before you.’ And so I don’t actually want to rename things that were named for slave owners,” Rice replied. “I want us to have to look at the names and recognize what they did, and be able to tell our kids what they did and for them to have a sense of their own history.”
I love everything she said. I wish she would run for president!
But are people doing that? Especially those like in VA that wanted the statue to stay? Are they recognizing what they did good and bad? I dont think so.
I haven't heard anyone speaking intelligently or acting sanely on either side of this. All I have seen is people fueling violence (on both sides) Its like the rioting in Furgeson. When it was peaceful, it sent a message. The day they started looting and destroying property their message was gone. They become just as bad as the other side. Should we just let people deface statues all across the country and say it's ok. The police stood by and watched today. God forbid someone was hurt when it fell. They would be quick to sue. People need to settle down and think before they act. Taking matters into your own hands isn't the answer. The police need to restore order. Decisions on these monuments need to be made.
Please tell me the "sides" you are referring to are specifically about whether or not to remove a statue and historical items and NOT white supremacist and nazis vs anti nazis who reject hate.
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| Posted 8/16/17 6:33 AM |
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Jenhos
Maeve
Member since 6/05 3273 total posts
Name:
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Re: History
Posted by stinger
Posted by Jenhos
Posted by stinger
Posted by Jenhos
What do we do with statues of President that were slave owners?
Condoleeza Rice made some good comments about not sanitizing our history.
“When you start wiping out your history, sanitizing your history to make you feel better, it’s a bad thing,” Rice said.
“I’m a firm believer in ‘keep your history before you.’ And so I don’t actually want to rename things that were named for slave owners,” Rice replied. “I want us to have to look at the names and recognize what they did, and be able to tell our kids what they did and for them to have a sense of their own history.”
I love everything she said. I wish she would run for president!
But are people doing that? Especially those like in VA that wanted the statue to stay? Are they recognizing what they did good and bad? I dont think so.
I haven't heard anyone speaking intelligently or acting sanely on either side of this. All I have seen is people fueling violence (on both sides) Its like the rioting in Furgeson. When it was peaceful, it sent a message. The day they started looting and destroying property their message was gone. They become just as bad as the other side. Should we just let people deface statues all across the country and say it's ok. The police stood by and watched today. God forbid someone was hurt when it fell. They would be quick to sue. People need to settle down and think before they act. Taking matters into your own hands isn't the answer. The police need to restore order. Decisions on these monuments need to be made.
Please tell me the "sides" you are referring to are specifically about whether or not to remove a statue and historical items and NOT white supremacist and nazis vs anti nazis who reject hate.
I am talking about the people who are just ripping down statues and the people that are protesting them. Not everyone who wants statues to stay up are Neo Nazis or white supremacists. On this board they will be called that but it isn't true. I don't think I would say Condoleeza Rice is a neo Nazi. The violence and destruction of property isn't the answer. It solves nothing. It makes us look.like animals. Are we going to have people burning flags in the street and tearing up towns next?
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| Posted 8/16/17 7:15 AM |
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GoldenRod
10 years on LIF!
Member since 11/06 26792 total posts
Name:
Shawn
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Re: History
Posted by Jenhos
What do we do with statues of President that were slave owners?
Condoleeza Rice made some good comments about not sanitizing our history.
“When you start wiping out your history, sanitizing your history to make you feel better, it’s a bad thing,” Rice said.
“I’m a firm believer in ‘keep your history before you.’ And so I don’t actually want to rename things that were named for slave owners,” Rice replied. “I want us to have to look at the names and recognize what they did, and be able to tell our kids what they did and for them to have a sense of their own history.”
I love everything she said. I wish she would run for president!
As evil as we now know that slavery is, at the time, it was legal in our country, and almost expected, to own slaves. However, violently taking arms against the US to try to secede is the ultimate in treason. It's hard to find a more egregious offense against this country (maybe colluding with a known enemy of our country...).
It's two completely different stories. GW owning slaves is not even in the same ballpark as R.E. Lee committing treason against our country.
Also, the statues and images of GW don't worship the fact that he owned slaves, but that he was one of the Founding Fathers of our country. The Confederate statues celebrate the fact that these men fought against the United States. Museums acknowledge and remember GW's slaves, and many other of his negative attributes, but we don't celebrate them.
Nobody is looking to sanitize history, we just don't want to celebrate and worship treason.
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| Posted 8/16/17 7:40 AM |
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