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Bxgell2
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Beth
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Posted by Lina
Posted by MrsYankeeGirl72
Couldn't say it better myself.
It is not like the rule didn't exist and the player was not warned in advanced. I am sorry but when I was a kid, if there were restrictions at school, my parents made sure that we obeyed them.
Agreed! 
I really don't get this logic. So, if a school has a rule that female students who want to attend the prom dressed in a suit, cannot, should they obey it?
Yes, to some degree, students are expected to abide by the rules, as long as they are valid, legitimate and non-discriminatory. For rules that are not, we should applaud those students who are willing to take that risk to take a stand. Without those people in this world, these kind of discriminatory rules would never change.
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Posted 1/7/11 3:22 PM  |
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AngnShaun
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Posted by JAAMS
Posted by AngnShaun
Posted by Bxgell2
Posted by DiamondGirl
As someone who works in a school, the school rules are the school rules.
School rules MUST abide by the anti-discrimination statutes, meaning, they must not have a discriminatory impact.
If they don't have the same rule for girls teams, why have it for the boys? If girls are permitted to have long hair on the basketball team, why wouldn't boys be allowed as well?
i actually said the same thing... i wonder if other clubs/sports have rules that arent applied to the entire school...
Isn't it different though because the individual coach is making the rules?
Perhaps the school couldn't issue a set of rules that is different for girls and for boys, but it isn't a rule set forth by the school. It's a rule set forth by the leader of a certain group. The girls' coach chooses to not have that rule, but the boys' coach does.
I could be wrong, but I feel like it is different because it is not a school issued policy, it is a team issued policy and therefore, would go by a case to case basis.
that makes sense ... im no lawyer so i really dont know if its discrimination or not, it didnt even occur to me until Beth posted... i was just curious
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| Posted 1/7/11 3:22 PM |
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Bxgell2
Perfection
Member since 5/05 16438 total posts
Name:
Beth
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Posted by JAAMS
Posted by AngnShaun
Posted by Bxgell2
Posted by DiamondGirl
As someone who works in a school, the school rules are the school rules.
School rules MUST abide by the anti-discrimination statutes, meaning, they must not have a discriminatory impact.
If they don't have the same rule for girls teams, why have it for the boys? If girls are permitted to have long hair on the basketball team, why wouldn't boys be allowed as well?
i actually said the same thing... i wonder if other clubs/sports have rules that arent applied to the entire school...
Isn't it different though because the individual coach is making the rules?
Perhaps the school couldn't issue a set of rules that is different for girls and for boys, but it isn't a rule set forth by the school. It's a rule set forth by the leader of a certain group. The girls' coach chooses to not have that rule, but the boys' coach does.
I could be wrong, but I feel like it is different because it is not a school issued policy, it is a team issued policy and therefore, would go by a case to case basis.
The coach is acting in his capacity as a school employee and is responsible for ensuring that any decision that he makes, whether approved by the district or not, is compliant with federal anti-discrimination statutes.
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| Posted 1/7/11 3:24 PM |
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DiamondGirl
You are my I love you
Member since 7/09 18802 total posts
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Posted by Bxgell2
Posted by Lina
Posted by MrsYankeeGirl72
Couldn't say it better myself.
It is not like the rule didn't exist and the player was not warned in advanced. I am sorry but when I was a kid, if there were restrictions at school, my parents made sure that we obeyed them.
Agreed!
I really don't get this logic. So, if a school has a rule that female students who want to attend the prom dressed in a suit, cannot, should they obey it?
Yes, to some degree, students are expected to abide by the rules, as long as they are valid, legitimate and non-discriminatory. For rules that are not, we should applaud those students who are willing to take that risk to take a stand. Without those people in this world, these kind of discriminatory rules would never change.
This is a very good point and I agree with you.
And with the haircut you are right, it could be considered discrimination.
I guess I am so sick of parents empowering their children to violate school rules. For example: The NYC Chancellor does not allow kids to have cellphones in school.
Parents allow kids to bring them to school.
Okay my Principal sees the parents argument that they want to be able to contact them afterschool, on the way home etc. so she says if they are turned off and left in your school bag that is fine
Kids get caught using phone, texting in class parents cause a huff and insist phone be returned ASAP instead of on 15th and 30th of the month as per the rules.
THAT is the kind of thing that enrages me. I do agree with what you pointed out though.
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| Posted 1/7/11 3:26 PM |
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peanutbutter2
Carpe diem!
Member since 11/10 5287 total posts
Name:
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Posted by Bxgell2
Posted by JAAMS
Posted by AngnShaun
Posted by Bxgell2
Posted by DiamondGirl
As someone who works in a school, the school rules are the school rules.
School rules MUST abide by the anti-discrimination statutes, meaning, they must not have a discriminatory impact.
If they don't have the same rule for girls teams, why have it for the boys? If girls are permitted to have long hair on the basketball team, why wouldn't boys be allowed as well?
i actually said the same thing... i wonder if other clubs/sports have rules that arent applied to the entire school...
Isn't it different though because the individual coach is making the rules?
Perhaps the school couldn't issue a set of rules that is different for girls and for boys, but it isn't a rule set forth by the school. It's a rule set forth by the leader of a certain group. The girls' coach chooses to not have that rule, but the boys' coach does.
I could be wrong, but I feel like it is different because it is not a school issued policy, it is a team issued policy and therefore, would go by a case to case basis.
The coach is acting in his capacity as a school employee and is responsible for ensuring that any decision that he makes, whether approved by the district or not, is compliant with federal anti-discrimination statutes.
Right, but he is only the coach of the boys' team. He isn't responsible for making rules for the girls' team. So he is not the one who decided that the rule applies only to the boys and not to the girls. Therefore, is it still legally discrimination, since he is not making the ruling that girls do not have to follow this rule?
Hope you don't take this as me being snarky...I'm just curious. 
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| Posted 1/7/11 3:26 PM |
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Lina
My angel is finally here
Member since 5/10 2559 total posts
Name:
Lindsay
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Posted by Bxgell2
Posted by Lina
Posted by MrsYankeeGirl72
Couldn't say it better myself.
It is not like the rule didn't exist and the player was not warned in advanced. I am sorry but when I was a kid, if there were restrictions at school, my parents made sure that we obeyed them.
Agreed!
I really don't get this logic. So, if a school has a rule that female students who want to attend the prom dressed in a suit, cannot, should they obey it?
Yes, to some degree, students are expected to abide by the rules, as long as they are valid, legitimate and non-discriminatory. For rules that are not, we should applaud those students who are willing to take that risk to take a stand. Without those people in this world, these kind of discriminatory rules would never change.
I get your view. I just think that the same rules can not always apply to men and women- we are totally different. Im all for equality but some things are different for men than women. I do appreciate your opinion though.
On a lighter note, I want to sue someone for men not having to put up with a monthly friend. Total discrimination and not fair! LOL 
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| Posted 1/7/11 3:27 PM |
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november12003
Love my boys...
Member since 5/05 2412 total posts
Name:
Jenn
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
I bet if he was the team all-star this wouldn't even be a topic...
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| Posted 1/7/11 3:31 PM |
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heathergirl
Cocktail Time!
Member since 10/08 4978 total posts
Name:
American mouth
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Posted by DiamondGirl
Posted by Bxgell2
Posted by Lina
Posted by MrsYankeeGirl72
Couldn't say it better myself.
It is not like the rule didn't exist and the player was not warned in advanced. I am sorry but when I was a kid, if there were restrictions at school, my parents made sure that we obeyed them.
Agreed!
I really don't get this logic. So, if a school has a rule that female students who want to attend the prom dressed in a suit, cannot, should they obey it?
Yes, to some degree, students are expected to abide by the rules, as long as they are valid, legitimate and non-discriminatory. For rules that are not, we should applaud those students who are willing to take that risk to take a stand. Without those people in this world, these kind of discriminatory rules would never change.
This is a very good point and I agree with you.
And with the haircut you are right, it could be considered discrimination.
I guess I am so sick of parents empowering their children to violate school rules. For example: The NYC Chancellor does not allow kids to have cellphones in school.
Parents allow kids to bring them to school.
Okay my Principal sees the parents argument that they want to be able to contact them afterschool, on the way home etc. so she says if they are turned off and left in your school bag that is fine
Kids get caught using phone, texting in class parents cause a huff and insist phone be returned ASAP instead of on 15th and 30th of the month as per the rules.
THAT is the kind of thing that enrages me. I do agree with what you pointed out though.
I think you take these rules on a case by case basis. I don't think it's a hard and fast rule that every single rule should be enforced, or is even a "good rule." I still think the bottom line is that his rights are not being infringed upon because he knew that in order to participate in this particular sport, he needed to follow the dress code, and he didn't. No one's fault but his own.
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| Posted 1/7/11 3:31 PM |
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heathergirl
Cocktail Time!
Member since 10/08 4978 total posts
Name:
American mouth
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Posted by november12003
I bet if he was the team all-star this wouldn't even be a topic...
I'd hope ALL players be held to the same standard 
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| Posted 1/7/11 3:32 PM |
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DiamondGirl
You are my I love you
Member since 7/09 18802 total posts
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DiamondMama
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Posted by november12003
I bet if he was the team all-star this wouldn't even be a topic...
SO TRUE
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| Posted 1/7/11 3:33 PM |
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AngnShaun
Sisters
Member since 1/10 21015 total posts
Name:
Ang
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Posted by heathergirl
Posted by november12003
I bet if he was the team all-star this wouldn't even be a topic...
I'd hope ALL players be held to the same standard
yeah... i didnt see any reason to believe that if this kid was the star hed be getting away with it...
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| Posted 1/7/11 3:33 PM |
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heathergirl
Cocktail Time!
Member since 10/08 4978 total posts
Name:
American mouth
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Posted by AngnShaun
Posted by heathergirl
Posted by november12003
I bet if he was the team all-star this wouldn't even be a topic...
I'd hope ALL players be held to the same standard
yeah... i didnt see any reason to believe that if this kid was the star hed be getting away with it...
I don't buy into the argument of preferential treatment. And for a HS team, it hardly seems worth it.
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| Posted 1/7/11 3:34 PM |
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DiamondGirl
You are my I love you
Member since 7/09 18802 total posts
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DiamondMama
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Posted by heathergirl
Posted by AngnShaun
Posted by heathergirl
Posted by november12003
I bet if he was the team all-star this wouldn't even be a topic...
I'd hope ALL players be held to the same standard
yeah... i didnt see any reason to believe that if this kid was the star hed be getting away with it...
I don't buy into the argument of preferential treatment. And for a HS team, it hardly seems worth it.
You'd be surprised....
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| Posted 1/7/11 3:38 PM |
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heathergirl
Cocktail Time!
Member since 10/08 4978 total posts
Name:
American mouth
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Posted by DiamondGirl
Posted by heathergirl
Posted by AngnShaun
Posted by heathergirl
Posted by november12003
I bet if he was the team all-star this wouldn't even be a topic...
I'd hope ALL players be held to the same standard
yeah... i didnt see any reason to believe that if this kid was the star hed be getting away with it...
I don't buy into the argument of preferential treatment. And for a HS team, it hardly seems worth it.
You'd be surprised....
I went to a HS where you would have thought the top athletes would get preferential treatment, but their butts were in detention and they had to get good grades just like anyone else. So from my own experience, I dont't buy it.
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| Posted 1/7/11 3:40 PM |
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AngnShaun
Sisters
Member since 1/10 21015 total posts
Name:
Ang
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Posted by DiamondGirl
Posted by heathergirl
Posted by AngnShaun
Posted by heathergirl
Posted by november12003
I bet if he was the team all-star this wouldn't even be a topic...
I'd hope ALL players be held to the same standard
yeah... i didnt see any reason to believe that if this kid was the star hed be getting away with it...
I don't buy into the argument of preferential treatment. And for a HS team, it hardly seems worth it.
You'd be surprised....
i was just going to say i know theres favoritism but i figured that was more for grades... your hair cut everyone can see and therefore everyone can see that its not regulation...
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| Posted 1/7/11 3:42 PM |
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Lina
My angel is finally here
Member since 5/10 2559 total posts
Name:
Lindsay
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Posted by Bxgell2
I really don't get this logic. So, if a school has a rule that female students who want to attend the prom dressed in a suit, cannot, should they obey it?
Yes, to some degree, students are expected to abide by the rules, as long as they are valid, legitimate and non-discriminatory. For rules that are not, we should applaud those students who are willing to take that risk to take a stand. Without those people in this world, these kind of discriminatory rules would never change.
I am not in any way trying to start drama, I just have a question and I really don't know the ans, wondering if anyone else does...
So most people have a dress code at work. If a man went to work in a dress and his employer told him to change or reprimanded him in some way, would this be discrimination?
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| Posted 1/7/11 3:44 PM |
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peanutbutter2
Carpe diem!
Member since 11/10 5287 total posts
Name:
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Posted by Lina
Posted by Bxgell2
I really don't get this logic. So, if a school has a rule that female students who want to attend the prom dressed in a suit, cannot, should they obey it?
Yes, to some degree, students are expected to abide by the rules, as long as they are valid, legitimate and non-discriminatory. For rules that are not, we should applaud those students who are willing to take that risk to take a stand. Without those people in this world, these kind of discriminatory rules would never change.
I am not in any way trying to start drama, I just have a question and I really don't know the ans, wondering if anyone else does...
So most people have a dress code at work. If a man went to work in a dress and his employer told him to change or reprimanded him in some way, would this be discrimination?
I have a feeling that if the dress code were a general statement, then yes, that would be discrimination.
However, if the dress code were say, suits for men and dresses for women, then I don't think it could be discrimination since the code sets forth what the people have to wear.
I don't have a dress code at work. However, in school, there was a boy's uniform and a girl's uniform. It was clear which uniform belonged to which gender. If it just said "Uniform" and then listed the two options without assigning a gender, then yes, they couldn't say a boy couldn't wear the skirt. However, since it was clearly stated that girls wear the skirt and boys wear the tie and pants, it couldn't be discrimination if a boy showed up in a skirt-it would just be breaking of the rules.
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| Posted 1/7/11 3:49 PM |
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Lina
My angel is finally here
Member since 5/10 2559 total posts
Name:
Lindsay
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Posted by JAAMS
I have a feeling that if the dress code were a general statement, then yes, that would be discrimination.
However, if the dress code were say, suits for men and dresses for women, then I don't think it could be discrimination since the code sets forth what the people have to wear.
I don't have a dress code at work. However, in school, there was a boy's uniform and a girl's uniform. It was clear which uniform belonged to which gender. If it just said "Uniform" and then listed the two options without assigning a gender, then yes, they couldn't say a boy couldn't wear the skirt. However, since it was clearly stated that girls wear the skirt and boys wear the tie and pants, it couldn't be discrimination if a boy showed up in a skirt-it would just be breaking of the rules.
I agree and the same was for me. This is why I dont think the same rules that apply to boys need to be the same for girls. If boys need to have short hair then so be it. Just curious if a man who went to work in a dress could take legal action for his employer saying he couldn't- whether it be the men/women dress code is laid out or not.
Message edited 1/7/2011 3:55:42 PM.
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| Posted 1/7/11 3:52 PM |
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Lina
My angel is finally here
Member since 5/10 2559 total posts
Name:
Lindsay
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Edited for Duplicate post
Message edited 1/7/2011 3:54:56 PM.
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| Posted 1/7/11 3:53 PM |
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Bxgell2
Perfection
Member since 5/05 16438 total posts
Name:
Beth
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Posted by Lina
Posted by Bxgell2
I really don't get this logic. So, if a school has a rule that female students who want to attend the prom dressed in a suit, cannot, should they obey it?
Yes, to some degree, students are expected to abide by the rules, as long as they are valid, legitimate and non-discriminatory. For rules that are not, we should applaud those students who are willing to take that risk to take a stand. Without those people in this world, these kind of discriminatory rules would never change.
I am not in any way trying to start drama, I just have a question and I really don't know the ans, wondering if anyone else does...
So most people have a dress code at work. If a man went to work in a dress and his employer told him to change or reprimanded him in some way, would this be discrimination?
No drama, I'm happy to answer these kind of questions. Unfortunately there is no black/white answer, as it really all depends on the facts of each case.
As you probably know, there is no anti-discrimination statute that covers discrimination on the basis of homosexuality (although I hope it will come soon!), neither in the employment or education context (the anti-discrimination statutes that apply in the employment context are different than those that apply to public education institutions).
So, if the facts of the case were such that, the employee was told to "stop dressing like a fag", then no, it would not be illegal. If the employee was told to "stop dressing like a woman", then yes, it may very well constitute discrimination on the basis of gender, which encompasses "sex-stereotyping." While discrimination on the basis of sexuality isn't forbidden, discrimination on the basis of gender expectations is.
So, much of this all depends on the *reason* for the rule. Are dresses forbidden because they pose some sort of safety risk? Or is this rule merely in place because women are expected to dress a certain way and men are expected to dress a certain way. The former is not illegal, the latter is.
It is also important to note that the anti-discrimination statutes DO take into account the differences in men and women. What the statutes try to limit, however, is arbitrary rules that really don't take into account valid differences, but instead "stereotyping" differences.
I hope I make sense here... I'm trying to brain dump everything I know in 10 seconds.
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| Posted 1/7/11 4:21 PM |
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isabelle2137
LIF Adult
Member since 12/06 1076 total posts
Name:
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Maybe it's my pg hormones making me extra b*tchy, but things like this tick me off.
It seems like a frivolous lawsuit and as a tax payer I would be irritated that my school district would have to waste precious resources on a legal defense.
This kid and his parents get a big fat  from me.
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| Posted 1/7/11 5:20 PM |
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Erica
LIF Adult
Member since 5/05 11767 total posts
Name:
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
I get the idea that the coach wants the athletes to look like model students, but this rule seems so absurd. People have been expressing themselves with haircuts for ages!
The only rules that I have seen that have any ground is if the student is dressed or expressing himself in someway that distracts learning. Like someone said, he's not carving bad words in his hair or showing too much cleavage or whatever might be distracting to learning.
Why should a student who chooses not to conform to someone else's norm be punished by not being allowed to play a sport.
from the tinker v des moines ruling
A prohibition against expression of opinion, without any evidence that the rule is necessary to avoid substantial interference with school discipline or the rights of others, is not permissible under the First and Fourteenth Amendments. Pp. 507-514.
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| Posted 1/8/11 1:36 PM |
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GoldenRod
10 years on LIF!
Member since 11/06 26792 total posts
Name:
Shawn
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Re: Jr High School Student gets kicked off basketball team over hair cut...Discuss
Posted by Erica
I get the idea that the coach wants the athletes to look like model students, but this rule seems so absurd. People have been expressing themselves with haircuts for ages!
The only rules that I have seen that have any ground is if the student is dressed or expressing himself in someway that distracts learning. Like someone said, he's not carving bad words in his hair or showing too much cleavage or whatever might be distracting to learning.
Why should a student who chooses not to conform to someone else's norm be punished by not being allowed to play a sport.
from the tinker v des moines ruling
A prohibition against expression of opinion, without any evidence that the rule is necessary to avoid substantial interference with school discipline or the rights of others, is not permissible under the First and Fourteenth Amendments. Pp. 507-514.
So, then, based on that ruling, nobody should be forced to wear the team uniform if they don't want to, since it doesn't interfere with school discipline or rights of others.
The haircut is part of the uniform, and if they want to wear the uniform, they need to wear the entire uniform....
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| Posted 1/10/11 8:23 AM |
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