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snowflake08
Love my boys!!!
Member since 8/07 5148 total posts
Name:
Laura
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
NO NO NO
unless you want to see the complete end of capitalism
dont get me wrong, yes, it is terrible for people to lose their jobs but is the gov't going to bail out the bodega around the corner when they go under?
how about circuit city or any other store that has filed chapter 11
I say enough is enough
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Posted 11/12/08 7:49 PM  |
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mrswask
Pookie Love
Member since 5/05 20229 total posts
Name:
Michal
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
Posted by mommy2Alex
I don't think so. What is next? Are we going to start bailing out the Walmarts and Best Buys too? Companies need to accept fiscal responsibility for themselves.
agreed
As others have posted, tons of people are losing jobs and looking for jobs in their field for a long time (like my DH) Where's his handout/bailout?
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| Posted 11/12/08 7:57 PM |
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MrsPorkChop
Twinning!!
Member since 5/05 9941 total posts
Name:
Missy
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
no, they are just like any other company..when will it end?
circuit city just filed bankruptcy...linens and things..etc.....does that mean we should bail them out too?
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| Posted 11/12/08 7:58 PM |
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MsMBV
:P
Member since 5/05 28602 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
Posted by stickydust
One of the reasons that Japanese Auto makers have less financial difficulties that the the big 3 is that they do not have to deal with the United Auto Workers Union. The UAW contracts make it so that the profits per car on an American car is significantly less than a japanese car - on some cars they do not make a profit at all. The Japanese companies are not paying their workers the hefty salaries, insurance benefits and good pensions - so they save a lot of money. The UAW has a stronghold on the industry and it is going to bite them in the behind.
DH works for a Japanese Car company (well with the exception of one model that is made in Canada), and he is UAW.
I do not think unions are to blame. The difference between the US and the foreign companies, is that like most American industry, we have labor-laws and guidelines, COLA (hopefully) and benefits. Not all of the foreign manufacturers/assemblers are offered basic *perks* like paid OT, benefits, and pensions. The UAW benefits are no more or less extravagant than what many other American workers (union or not) would get at their jobs.
For what it is worth, my retirement/pension package surpasses DHs, and I am not in a union. I also get 3 more paid holiday days a year than he does. The only benefit he gets that blows mine away are the medical, because it is from a national pool.
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| Posted 11/12/08 8:02 PM |
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stickydust
Now a mommy of 2!!!
Member since 4/06 3164 total posts
Name:
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
Posted by MsMBV
Posted by stickydust
One of the reasons that Japanese Auto makers have less financial difficulties that the the big 3 is that they do not have to deal with the United Auto Workers Union. The UAW contracts make it so that the profits per car on an American car is significantly less than a japanese car - on some cars they do not make a profit at all. The Japanese companies are not paying their workers the hefty salaries, insurance benefits and good pensions - so they save a lot of money. The UAW has a stronghold on the industry and it is going to bite them in the behind.
DH works for a Japanese Car company (well with the exception of one model that is made in Canada), and he is UAW.
I do not think unions are to blame. The difference between the US and the foreign companies, is that like most American industry, we have labor-laws and guidelines, COLA (hopefully) and benefits. Not all of the foreign manufacturers/assemblers are offered basic *perks* like paid OT, benefits, and pensions. The UAW benefits are no more or less extravagant than what many other American workers (union or not) would get at their jobs.
For what it is worth, my retirement/pension package surpasses DHs, and I am not in a union. I also get 3 more paid holiday days a year than he does. The only benefit he gets that blows mine away are the medical, because it is from a national pool.
I am also very familiar with the UAW. I still work in Automotive and my DH used to work for Ford as an engineer. Both GM and Ford have inflexible labor so when there is an economic downturn they cannot match capacity to demand - they are unable to lay off people. For example - the jobs bank. The UAW at Ford and GM have the highest average in hourly wage of any auto contract in the world. Toyota and Honda do not have all the legacy costs that GM and Ford have - so they have a huge competitive disadvantage. Yes, GM and Ford got "drunk" on the SUV craze but that is only part of the problem.
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| Posted 11/12/08 8:41 PM |
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MsMBV
:P
Member since 5/05 28602 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
Posted by stickydust
I am also very familiar with the UAW. I still work in Automotive and my DH used to work for Ford as an engineer. Both GM and Ford have inflexible labor so when there is an economic downturn they cannot match capacity to demand - they are unable to lay off people. For example - the jobs bank. The UAW at Ford and GM have the highest average in hourly wage of any auto contract in the world. Toyota and Honda do not have all the legacy costs that GM and Ford have - so they have a huge competitive disadvantage. Yes, GM and Ford got "drunk" on the SUV craze but that is only part of the problem.
I know for a while MOPAR was unable to-remachine their assemblies b/c of the cost vs the estimated ROI....are GM & Ford facing the same thing>
I did not know that they were unable to perform layoffs. It seems counter-productive when they have to sacrifice the whole plant at the expense of smaller scale layoffs
DHs company definitely allows layoffs, and has already cut back 5% in the past 2 months.
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| Posted 11/12/08 8:45 PM |
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bella
LIF Adult
Member since 5/05 1871 total posts
Name:
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
Posted by snowflake08
NO NO NO
unless you want to see the complete end of capitalism
dont get me wrong, yes, it is terrible for people to lose their jobs but is the gov't going to bail out the bodega around the corner when they go under?
how about circuit city or any other store that has filed chapter 11
I say enough is enough
great pooint but unfortunately it looks like the want this and are going to do it and take a stake in the big 3 automakers....great, now the governemnt has a stake in banks, auto industry when will this end....
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| Posted 11/12/08 8:53 PM |
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stickydust
Now a mommy of 2!!!
Member since 4/06 3164 total posts
Name:
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
Posted by MsMBV
Posted by stickydust
I am also very familiar with the UAW. I still work in Automotive and my DH used to work for Ford as an engineer. Both GM and Ford have inflexible labor so when there is an economic downturn they cannot match capacity to demand - they are unable to lay off people. For example - the jobs bank. The UAW at Ford and GM have the highest average in hourly wage of any auto contract in the world. Toyota and Honda do not have all the legacy costs that GM and Ford have - so they have a huge competitive disadvantage. Yes, GM and Ford got "drunk" on the SUV craze but that is only part of the problem.
I know for a while MOPAR was unable to-remachine their assemblies b/c of the cost vs the estimated ROI....are GM & Ford facing the same thing>
I did not know that they were unable to perform layoffs. It seems counter-productive when they have to sacrifice the whole plant at the expense of smaller scale layoffs
DHs company definitely allows layoffs, and has already cut back 5% in the past 2 months.
Yup, what they do is that they do not have to come to work but they still get paid at LEAST 75% of their salary - the job bank. Not all UAW chapters are the same and since the contracts w/ the big 3 have been in place so long they kind of have a stranglehold. My DH could not even fire a guy who came to work several times high on crack!!
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| Posted 11/12/08 8:54 PM |
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MsMBV
:P
Member since 5/05 28602 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
Posted by stickydust
My DH could not even fire a guy who came to work several times high on crack!!
 Now that is absurd. 
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| Posted 11/12/08 9:03 PM |
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Beth
The Key to your new home....
Member since 2/06 24849 total posts
Name:
Beth
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
they already got $25 Billion
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| Posted 11/12/08 9:53 PM |
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VirginiaDeb
Don't eat me, hippo!
Member since 5/05 9252 total posts
Name:
Deb
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
No. Unless of course somebody decides to bail me out too!
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| Posted 11/12/08 9:56 PM |
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MrsERod
Praying for Everyone.
Member since 5/05 26170 total posts
Name:
MrsERod™®
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
NO
NO
NO
and
NO
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| Posted 11/12/08 9:59 PM |
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wannabemom
look who's freshly baked!
Member since 12/07 7364 total posts
Name:
aka marriedinportjeff
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
I'm very angry at the greedy US auto industry. I was saying for almost a decade that they must go green and improve fuel economy.... Peak oil was already rearing it's head on the horizon back then... any idiot could have foretold the current situation.
instead, they marketed huge SUVs becuase of a big profit margin. the US gov't didn't see any of those profits, so why should we flip the bill during their lean years?
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| Posted 11/12/08 10:04 PM |
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stickydust
Now a mommy of 2!!!
Member since 4/06 3164 total posts
Name:
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
Please note the collapse of the auto industry affects everybody...we will all be S.O.L.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Failure-of-auto-industry-apf-13552316.html
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| Posted 11/12/08 10:12 PM |
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stickydust
Now a mommy of 2!!!
Member since 4/06 3164 total posts
Name:
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
Posted by wannabemom
I'm very angry at the greedy US auto industry. I was saying for almost a decade that they must go green and improve fuel economy.... Peak oil was already rearing it's head on the horizon back then... any idiot could have foretold the current situation.
instead, they marketed huge SUVs becuase of a big profit margin. the US gov't didn't see any of those profits, so why should we flip the bill during their lean years?
It takes about 10 years for R&D
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| Posted 11/12/08 10:13 PM |
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MrsERod
Praying for Everyone.
Member since 5/05 26170 total posts
Name:
MrsERod™®
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
Posted by stickydust
Please note the collapse of the auto industry affects everybody...we will all be S.O.L.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Failure-of-auto-industry-apf-13552316.html
we're shitoutofluck now - why should we, the taxpayers, foot the bill for BIG BUSINESS --
Concern about the automakers hit new heights Friday when GM and Ford reported they spent a combined $14.6 billion more than they took in last quarter. GM said it could run out of money by the end of the year.
so because big business can't control their spending -- we now have to bail them out too?
i would LOVE to see the financial statements on WHAT EXACTLY they spent 14 BILLION dollars on!!!!! I'm SURE they have legitimate, necessary, expenses - but I am EQUALLY sure they were irresponsible in many, many, ways!
i'm going to spend, spend, spend, and then STOP paying my mortgage and CC's...
let's see if the gov't will give ME a bailout! 
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| Posted 11/12/08 10:20 PM |
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stickydust
Now a mommy of 2!!!
Member since 4/06 3164 total posts
Name:
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
For GM to just be able to RUN annually they need about 11-14 billion dollars. This takes into account all payroll, operating costs, supplier etc. they have to pay all these things even if they are not making a profit. On top of that you HAVE to invest in R&D, re-tooling, etc. When Bill Ford was CEO a few years ago he did not even take a salary. They have cut most programs for white collar - i.e tuition reimbursement etc. Everyone has been working their bums off the past few years to try and save these companies.
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| Posted 11/12/08 10:32 PM |
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wannabemom
look who's freshly baked!
Member since 12/07 7364 total posts
Name:
aka marriedinportjeff
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
Posted by stickydust
Posted by wannabemom
I'm very angry at the greedy US auto industry. I was saying for almost a decade that they must go green and improve fuel economy.... Peak oil was already rearing it's head on the horizon back then... any idiot could have foretold the current situation.
instead, they marketed huge SUVs becuase of a big profit margin. the US gov't didn't see any of those profits, so why should we flip the bill during their lean years?
It takes about 10 years for R&D
so where are those cars? toyota's r&d takes just as long.
INSTEAD THEY PLUNGED MILLONS INTO MARKETING LARGER AND LARGER SUVS this got americans addicted to enormous vehicles. wonderful for the US economy
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| Posted 11/12/08 11:09 PM |
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Dulcinea
Weekend Warrior
Member since 3/08 2530 total posts
Name:
Dulcinea
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
Posted by wannabemom
so where are those cars? toyota's r&d takes just as long.
INSTEAD THEY PLUNGED MILLONS INTO MARKETING LARGER AND LARGER SUVS this got americans addicted to enormous vehicles. wonderful for the US economy
Don't forget they killed the electric car. They had a chance to surpass the Japanese carmakers in making fuel efficient cars but took a giant step back 'cus they didn't properly marketed the EV1 and took every measure to make sure people who leased and are loyal to the electric car can't even buy it. Instead they just plain crushed them like cans of sardines so they focus on the more profitable SUV.
Even the CEO admitted that was a mistake...
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| Posted 11/12/08 11:23 PM |
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stickydust
Now a mommy of 2!!!
Member since 4/06 3164 total posts
Name:
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
Posted by wannabemom
Posted by stickydust
Posted by wannabemom
I'm very angry at the greedy US auto industry. I was saying for almost a decade that they must go green and improve fuel economy.... Peak oil was already rearing it's head on the horizon back then... any idiot could have foretold the current situation.
instead, they marketed huge SUVs becuase of a big profit margin. the US gov't didn't see any of those profits, so why should we flip the bill during their lean years?
It takes about 10 years for R&D
so where are those cars? toyota's r&d takes just as long.
INSTEAD THEY PLUNGED MILLONS INTO MARKETING LARGER AND LARGER SUVS this got americans addicted to enormous vehicles. wonderful for the US economy
The American automakers have several hybrids on the market and many fuel efficient cars in the works. The sale of SUV/Crossovers in the U.S. is still outpacing the sale of small cars (not by a lot but still). Living in NY views tend to be skewed as to what vehicles people are buying. Like I said "gas guzzling SUVs" are only part of the problem. It would be interesting to conduct a poll on LIF to see how many people would actually consider trading in their SUV for a compact car.
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| Posted 11/12/08 11:44 PM |
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GoldenRod
10 years on LIF!
Member since 11/06 26792 total posts
Name:
Shawn
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
We discussed this at work yesterday. The "auto industry" will NEVER collapse. People will always buy cars of one type or another. If GM completely shut down, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, etc would buy the old GM plants and just change the logo on the building. There may be a reduction in the work force temporarily, but most of them would be rehired under the new company.
If GM is able to produce all the new cars they are working on, they will have the most fuel-efficient fleet in the world, far surpassing any Japanese company.
The Japanese companies are hurting too. Every car manufacturer is seeing a huge decrease in sales from last year. Yes, the US companies seem to be taking the brunt of it, but the other companies aren't immune to the entire country being in a "market correction" mode. People just aren't buying cars like they were last year, of any brand.
(Toyota also quite a few huge gas-guzzlers in their fleet.... Tundra, Tacoma, Sequoia, etc....)
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| Posted 11/13/08 8:01 AM |
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snowboardgirl
LIF Adult
Member since 8/05 1033 total posts
Name:
Christine
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
My DH has an auto transport business. He helped close down a few dealerships this week. He now has very little work. I hope they do something even if I don't agree with it.
I may need a second job. I am looking but I doubt I can get work in my field right now. :(
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| Posted 11/13/08 8:06 AM |
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Diane
Hope is Contagious....catch it
Member since 5/05 30683 total posts
Name:
D
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
Posted by mommy2Alex
I don't think so. What is next? Are we going to start bailing out the Walmarts and Best Buys too? Companies need to accept fiscal responsibility for themselves.
I agree...can someone bail me out??
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| Posted 11/13/08 8:10 AM |
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Sassyz75
Turning a new page
Member since 5/05 9731 total posts
Name:
Dina
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
Posted by wannabemom
I'm very angry at the greedy US auto industry. I was saying for almost a decade that they must go green and improve fuel economy.... Peak oil was already rearing it's head on the horizon back then... any idiot could have foretold the current situation.
instead, they marketed huge SUVs becuase of a big profit margin. the US gov't didn't see any of those profits, so why should we flip the bill during their lean years?
I don't think it was the auto makers- they've continually manufactured small vehicles- it was the american public.
I have a hard time believing the American public was so stupid as to not know what was going on with the oil supply- with Al Gore's movie, etc.
You'd even see it on here- people KNEW SUVs were bad for the environment. KNEW they were wasting resources- but people said that they NEEDED the cars. Not Want, Need. I never bought into it- once I had a kid, I still got a sedan w/ better mileage. BUT I got a honda- because they make better cars.. and I think THAT is a huge problem.
this was a national addiction to oversized vehicles that guzzled gas and now we want to blame big Auto- like the drug dealer that blames the dealer.
I don't really think that SUVs are the major reason for the trouble- I would put more on legacy costs as PP stated.
As for SUVs- I think Americans have to take a little personal responsibility here.
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| Posted 11/13/08 8:15 AM |
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1stimemom
Love my boys
Member since 2/08 8766 total posts
Name:
Mrs Dee
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Re: Should the Auto Industry Be Bailed Out? ..
Posted by Sassyz75
Posted by wannabemom
I'm very angry at the greedy US auto industry. I was saying for almost a decade that they must go green and improve fuel economy.... Peak oil was already rearing it's head on the horizon back then... any idiot could have foretold the current situation.
instead, they marketed huge SUVs becuase of a big profit margin. the US gov't didn't see any of those profits, so why should we flip the bill during their lean years?
I don't think it was the auto makers- they've continually manufactured small vehicles- it was the american public.
I have a hard time believing the American public was so stupid as to not know what was going on with the oil supply- with Al Gore's movie, etc.
You'd even see it on here- people KNEW SUVs were bad for the environment. KNEW they were wasting resources- but people said that they NEEDED the cars. Not Want, Need. I never bought into it- once I had a kid, I still got a sedan w/ better mileage. BUT I got a honda- because they make better cars.. and I think THAT is a huge problem.
this was a national addiction to oversized vehicles that guzzled gas and now we want to blame big Auto- like the drug dealer that blames the dealer.
I don't really think that SUVs are the major reason for the trouble- I would put more on legacy costs as PP stated.
As for SUVs- I think Americans have to take a little personal responsibility here.
 I think it is ridicuous for anyone to say that the car companies got us "addicted" to SUV's. Any dealership of any brand has compact cars to large SUV's . You are free to buy whatever you want.
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| Posted 11/13/08 9:04 AM |
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