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Blu-ize
Plan B is Now Plan A
Member since 7/05 32475 total posts
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Susan
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by Woodsy
Posted by MikesWife
Posted by Pumpkin1
Any constitutional experts on here that are qualified to answer whether the mandate is constitutional or not?
LOL! I'm just offering my opinion. I think I'll let the courts opine. 
I don't consider myself a "constitutional expert", though I did get an A+ in Con Law in law school, was editor of the ConLaw Journal and have served as an adjunct professor of ConLaw at a local college.
That being said, I don't believe that the law is constitutional. While I have neither the time nor the inclination to argue over my reasoning, attached is the lawsuit that was recently filed and discusses the unconstitutional aspects of this bill and how it violates States' rights.
http://www.oag.state.tx.us/newspubs/releases/2010/032310healthcarelawsuit.
In any event, I think this case will get fast tracked to the US Supreme Court and Justice Kennedy will be the deciding vote.
As an aside, I practice employment law and represent small, medium and large businesses. I have received several phone calls over the last week from business owners who are very concerned about what this legislation is going to do their business...many of whom are having enough problems in this economy already. Simply put, this legislation is a job killer...unless of course, you are an IRS agent. Nice work, Obummer!!!
One last point: The automobile insurance analogy frequently used by supporters of this monstrosity is inapposite to this debate. The Constitution reserves LIMITED powers to the federal government and all remaining powers are delegated to states. Automobile insurance mandates are creatures of state law--not federal. Also, you can avoid such a mandate by not owning a car. Finally, these laws are really to protect others who might be harmed by your operation of the vehicle.
Just my two cents. Back to work!
hmmm...some opinions here..not fact. Also the auto insurance analogy most definitely pertains as it protects the owner of the vehicle and anyone who may incur damages due to your operation of the vehicle..same as health insurance..if you don't have it..I will end up paying when you get sick. And you will undoubtedly get sick one day. In fact, you may never have an auto claim, but with health insurance you will have a claim. W/o health insurance you may not go to the doc and wait until your illness is catastrophic in every way. Then you won't be able to pay your bill and I will pay again....unless of course you are filthy rich.
What's the difference if the state mandates it or the fed? Either way it's mandated.
Having said that, many people are up in arms including your clients because they are scared. Most don't know what it will mean for them. Anxiety comes from not having the facts.
Lastly, if you think this bill is done and won't have any changes, think again. It will have a gazillion changes (technical term ) before it's all said and done.
Oh yeah, and I think it should be mandatory to have health insurance so I don't pay for someone's $100K hospital bill down the road. Let the risk get spread out.
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Posted 3/24/10 4:44 PM  |
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stickydust
Now a mommy of 2!!!
Member since 4/06 3164 total posts
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by Blu-ize
What's the difference if the state mandates it or the fed? Either way it's mandated.
From a constitutional point of view it can make a HUGE difference as per the 10th Amendment.
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| Posted 3/24/10 4:47 PM |
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eddiesmommy
best buds!
Member since 5/09 11524 total posts
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Melissa
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by stickydust
Posted by Blu-ize
What's the difference if the state mandates it or the fed? Either way it's mandated.
From a constitutional point of view it can make a HUGE difference as per the 10th Amendment.
i think she meant when all was said and done.
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| Posted 3/24/10 4:51 PM |
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stickydust
Now a mommy of 2!!!
Member since 4/06 3164 total posts
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by eddiesmommy
Posted by stickydust
Posted by Blu-ize
What's the difference if the state mandates it or the fed? Either way it's mandated.
From a constitutional point of view it can make a HUGE difference as per the 10th Amendment.
i think she meant when all was said and done.
but we are discussing the constitutionality of it so , in that context, it does make a difference. If the federal government did in fact ussurp the states powers thats is a huge deal.
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| Posted 3/24/10 5:02 PM |
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klingklang77
kraftwerk!
Member since 7/06 11487 total posts
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Völlig losgelöst
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by klingklang77
Yes, for certain things.
I think certain parts of the constitution are outdated.
that's just the thing...it's really the beauty of the document itself.
the constitution is fluid. the writers of it left room for things like this...when the shizit hits the fan almost 250 years after it was written...when the needs of the constituency changed in a way they could never forsee or imagine.
think about it...many doctors were paid with some sock darning or an apple pie for their services when the Constitution was written.
it's up to the courts to interpret what they meant.
but methinks the court will have no choice but to uphold the legislation based on the section Barb posted.
I see what you are saying, I just wish it were more straight forward. It does, however, make things interesting
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| Posted 3/24/10 5:03 PM |
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TheDivineMrsM
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Mama mama mama....
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by MrsProfessor
Aren't we mandated to purchase car insurance, if we want to drive legally?
I was just about to point this out. If the government can mandate that, why is our health insurance a constitutional crisis?
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| Posted 3/24/10 6:18 PM |
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Xelindrya
Mommy's little YouTube Star!
Member since 8/05 14470 total posts
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Veronica
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by MsMBV
Posted by MrsProfessor
Aren't we mandated to purchase car insurance, if we want to drive legally?
You can choose not to drive a car.
Or choose to get a bond. Some repeat offenders can't get insurance but buy bonds instead. you are not required to buy auto insurance but you are required to provide proof of financial responsibility of which the state only accepts certain forms. Insurance, SR22 and special self insured bonds.
But essentially yes. You are not legally required to buy auto insurance as you are not legally required to buy an auto. Auto ownership is a luxury and you must pay for such luxury in the form of proving you can protect other people's property. Not your own.
Auto insurance is THIRD party (property of others) which is required.
NO STATE requires FIRST party insurance for your vehicle. The BANK does as a CONTRACTUAL requirement. If you want to pay for your car full price, then you do NOT have to carry auto insurance for YOUR car at all.
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| Posted 3/24/10 6:26 PM |
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KateDevine
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Member since 6/06 24950 total posts
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by Xelindrya
Posted by MsMBV
Posted by MrsProfessor
Aren't we mandated to purchase car insurance, if we want to drive legally?
You can choose not to drive a car.
Or choose to get a bond. Some repeat offenders can't get insurance but buy bonds instead. you are not required to buy auto insurance but you are required to provide proof of financial responsibility of which the state only accepts certain forms. Insurance, SR22 and special self insured bonds.
But essentially yes. You are not legally required to buy auto insurance as you are not legally required to buy an auto. Auto ownership is a luxury and you must pay for such luxury in the form of proving you can protect other people's property. Not your own.
Auto insurance is THIRD party (property of others) which is required.
NO STATE requires FIRST party insurance for your vehicle. The BANK does as a CONTRACTUAL requirement. If you want to pay for your car full price, then you do NOT have to carry auto insurance for YOUR car at all.
Yes you do in NY! I just got a ticket b/c I didn't have my current insurance card on me and it is a giant PITA to prove I have insurance, which I do.
Not only that but NONE of our cars have ANYTHING to do with a bank and they all are required to have insurance. In fact, if your insurance lapses, within like 24hrs you get a letter from NYS saying to turn in your plates
ETA-Sorry for the hijack!
Message edited 3/24/2010 6:33:20 PM.
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| Posted 3/24/10 6:32 PM |
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Xelindrya
Mommy's little YouTube Star!
Member since 8/05 14470 total posts
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Veronica
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by TheDivineMrsM
Posted by MrsProfessor
Aren't we mandated to purchase car insurance, if we want to drive legally?
I was just about to point this out. If the government can mandate that, why is our health insurance a constitutional crisis?
because that auto insurance isnt for you. Its for the resulting ACTIONS caused by you from negligence. and only to pay for the damages to OTHERS not you.
You dont need to carry insurance for you. Never have and never will. Its banks who require you. No lien, no problem.
Health insurance mandated is like saying If you're sick you HAVE to pay for a doctor.
Under normal circumstances you may not have gone to the doctor and would have stayed home (or not bought insurance in this case) where now you HAVE to pay for the doctor regadless if you go or not. (pay for insurance)
Unlike the liability auto insurance law you are not paying for insurance in the case that you are neligent and cause an accident .. you are paying for insurance for your own care regardless if you ever use it, wanted it or needed it. Unlike auto insurance if you can't afford it you can't just get rid of the car and move on with life, you must maintain the health insurance and you must pay for it or be fined.
You will no longer have a choice to say no. That choice is taken away from you, end of story. Either way you must pay.
Everything else in our lives we can say no to. I dont want to pay taxes, I wont work. I dont NEED to buy anything I can live off the land of my parents etc. We have always had a CHOICE in our life and how we chose to live it here. Some of us have 5 TVs in their house and complain about debt others have only 1 TV but can't put food on their table because of other debt. Each of us as always been able to make our own lives, and financial decisions on our own without interference from the govt. Now this however changes that. We absolutely must buy this insurance and/or pay the fine.
Now I'm not saying I think this lawsuit will stand up. But that's my understanding of why they are trying.
*shrug*
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| Posted 3/24/10 6:39 PM |
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Xelindrya
Mommy's little YouTube Star!
Member since 8/05 14470 total posts
Name:
Veronica
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by KateDevine
Yes you do in NY! I just got a ticket b/c I didn't have my current insurance card on me and it is a giant PITA to prove I have insurance, which I do.
Not only that but NONE of our cars have ANYTHING to do with a bank and they all are required to have insurance. In fact, if your insurance lapses, within like 24hrs you get a letter from NYS saying to turn in your plates
ETA-Sorry for the hijack!
LIABILITY INSURANCE!!!
not insurance if your car is wrecked
NO state EVER mandates that. including NY
you are required to keep insurance for OTHERS not you.
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| Posted 3/24/10 6:40 PM |
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KLSbear
LIF Adult
Member since 1/06 1908 total posts
Name:
Karen
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
First we're forced to purchase health insurance (unless you're in the exempt group) - what's next - we all line up in the town square at 6:00 AM for an hour of exercise - because it's for the common good? That's one solution for obesity.
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| Posted 3/24/10 6:48 PM |
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KateDevine
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Member since 6/06 24950 total posts
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by Xelindrya
Posted by KateDevine
Yes you do in NY! I just got a ticket b/c I didn't have my current insurance card on me and it is a giant PITA to prove I have insurance, which I do.
Not only that but NONE of our cars have ANYTHING to do with a bank and they all are required to have insurance. In fact, if your insurance lapses, within like 24hrs you get a letter from NYS saying to turn in your plates
ETA-Sorry for the hijack!
LIABILITY INSURANCE!!!
not insurance if your car is wrecked
NO state EVER mandates that. including NY
you are required to keep insurance for OTHERS not you.
Still insurance and it DOES protect you if you are in an accident. It keeps you from being PERSONALLY liable if you are in an accident
ETA-Also, NY is a No Fault State, so basically everyone does have some type of coverage for themselves, even under the most basic of policies
Message edited 3/24/2010 6:49:53 PM.
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| Posted 3/24/10 6:48 PM |
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Xelindrya
Mommy's little YouTube Star!
Member since 8/05 14470 total posts
Name:
Veronica
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by KateDevine
Posted by Xelindrya
Posted by KateDevine
Yes you do in NY! I just got a ticket b/c I didn't have my current insurance card on me and it is a giant PITA to prove I have insurance, which I do.
Not only that but NONE of our cars have ANYTHING to do with a bank and they all are required to have insurance. In fact, if your insurance lapses, within like 24hrs you get a letter from NYS saying to turn in your plates
ETA-Sorry for the hijack!
LIABILITY INSURANCE!!!
not insurance if your car is wrecked
NO state EVER mandates that. including NY
you are required to keep insurance for OTHERS not you.
Still insurance and it DOES protect you if you are in an accident. It keeps you from being PERSONALLY liable if you are in an accident
ETA-Also, NY is a No Fault State, so basically everyone does have some type of coverage for themselves, even under the most basic of policies
Ok..let me clarify ..
NO ONE is requiring that you insurance YOUR car. Liability insurance is mandated.
But you could also go illegal and get into an accident and you'd still have to pay for the claim out of pocket as im pretty sure the other guy isnt gonna say "no biggie, I got this" where as you will not get your car fixed, make sense?
This health insurance is forcing you to cover yourself whether you wanted to or not.
Your auto insurance is not forcing you to cover your own car, kwim?
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| Posted 3/24/10 8:52 PM |
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by Woodsy
Posted by MikesWife
Posted by Pumpkin1
Nice work, Obummer!!!
I'm sorry but any kind of professionalism/expertise that you claim to have on the subject matter just completely went out the window with this comment.
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| Posted 3/25/10 9:14 AM |
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