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wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
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MarathonKnitter
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Member since 2/07 17374 total posts
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EMBRACING CHANGE
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wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
as soon as i post this, i will start googling, but i wanted to post to see if i could gather more/better info from you guys.
this morning, a friend posted on FB a connection with wisconsin's union vote to hitler abolishing unions:
"May, 1933, Adolf Hitler abolishes unions. March, 2011, Wisconsin GOP passes anti-union bill through the state senate. Crazy [$hit]!!!"
is there something i'm missing?
i know this has the potential to turn into a pro-union v. anti-union conversation. that's not what i'm looking for, i'm wondering if his connecting hitler to wisconsin has any political/historical validity.
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Posted 3/10/11 10:37 AM  |
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acm1899
LIF Adult
Member since 1/11 1085 total posts
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
There is no connection, but anytime you throw the name Hitler or the word nazi somewhere it's bound to grab people's attention.
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| Posted 3/10/11 10:39 AM |
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Celt
~~~~~~~~~~
Member since 4/08 7758 total posts
Name:
colette
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
None whatsoever. But "WINNING" the alarmist trophy of the day for sure.
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| Posted 3/10/11 10:56 AM |
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GoldenRod
10 years on LIF!
Member since 11/06 26792 total posts
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Shawn
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Instead of the "6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon", everyone likes to play "1 Degree of Hitler"..... 
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| Posted 3/10/11 11:00 AM |
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Nifheim
allo
Member since 1/09 5476 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Stupid to associate Hitler with what happened to Wisconsin. Its a very sad day for the working class people but I won't say its like Hitler coming.
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| Posted 3/10/11 11:11 AM |
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
I don't know that he was the first to say it, but Jon Stewart said, "Only Hitler should be compared to Hitler."
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| Posted 3/10/11 11:20 AM |
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debidonnamom
Kindness matters
Member since 12/10 1903 total posts
Name:
Mary (MOB)
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Libby, you're not alone. I get confused over who/what/the Truth is too!!!! My Dad, now deceased, belonged to a union, while employed as a paper mill worker. I don't remember much, only that during a strike, we were given some food surplus items; Boxes of Velveta cheese, is the only one I remember. I don't think union membership helped my Dad, as far as wages, because until the day he died, we were poor, and Dad worked hard, seven days a week, and on the side!! I would like to be more educated about this. Do the unions really collect dues, but do little for the members? I've heard one teacher saying the union doesn't do much to help students, that their only roll is in teacher salaries, etc. Is this true? What is the role of a union? What is it suppose to accomplish, and what does it actually do? Mary
Message edited 3/10/2011 12:11:29 PM.
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| Posted 3/10/11 11:49 AM |
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OStewarts
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Member since 11/07 1096 total posts
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by MrsProfessor
I don't know that he was the first to say it, but Jon Stewart said, "Only Hitler should be compared to Hitler."
I agree!
But to answer your question as to whether this has any historical validity, Hitler dismantled democratically elected labor unions in 1933 and replaced them with new unions that supported him and the Nazi party.
In Wisconsin, the bill passed yesterday does not dismantle labor unions, but limits their ability to represent their members.
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| Posted 3/10/11 12:00 PM |
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Nifheim
allo
Member since 1/09 5476 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by debidonnamom
I've heard one teacher saying the union doesn't do much to help students, that their only roll is in teacher salaries, etc. Is this true? What is the role of a union? What is it suppose to accomplish, and what does it actually do? Mary
What unions do is make sure you don't get "ripped" off by the higher ups in my book. Our union fought for a raise we were guaranteed, our union fights for our benefits to keep rising costs down (yes we should pay more but not double if not triple), we also get many discounts on life insurance, trips, etc. So my union is VERY affective. When I worked for waldbuams the only thing our union did was guarantee a raise per year, min health coverage and if we got hurt on the job some extra coverage. When i went back to my old deli job PT i didn't have the same contract and had basically no raise, no health, no nothing. That union caved under pressure and was stripped of its power. In Wisconsin the unions agreed to concessions which would of benefited everyone but now they stripped the right to collective bargain which means you will never get anything remotely back when times are good. SO basically that union is worthless - your paying dues for nothing.
I am completely for concessions, i think raises should be put on hold for the next 2-3 years, i think health care and contributions to pensions should be increased (slightly over time) but what I don't agree with was taking away collective bargaining.
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| Posted 3/10/11 12:42 PM |
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Little-J-Mommy
I'm a Big Brother
Member since 5/06 8041 total posts
Name:
D
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by OStewarts
Posted by MrsProfessor
I don't know that he was the first to say it, but Jon Stewart said, "Only Hitler should be compared to Hitler."
I agree!
But to answer your question as to whether this has any historical validity, Hitler dismantled democratically elected labor unions in 1933 and replaced them with new unions that supported him and the Nazi party.
In Wisconsin, the bill passed yesterday does not dismantle labor unions, but limits their ability to represent their members.
I see this same connection and frankly, it's scary. I feel like this nation as a whole, across a broad spectrum of issues, has taken a giant leap backwards
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| Posted 3/10/11 12:43 PM |
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debidonnamom
Kindness matters
Member since 12/10 1903 total posts
Name:
Mary (MOB)
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by Nifheim
Posted by debidonnamom
I've heard one teacher saying the union doesn't do much to help students, that their only roll is in teacher salaries, etc. Is this true? What is the role of a union? What is it suppose to accomplish, and what does it actually do? Mary
What unions do is make sure you don't get "ripped" off by the higher ups in my book. Our union fought for a raise we were guaranteed, our union fights for our benefits to keep rising costs down (yes we should pay more but not double if not triple), we also get many discounts on life insurance, trips, etc. So my union is VERY affective. When I worked for waldbuams the only thing our union did was guarantee a raise per year, min health coverage and if we got hurt on the job some extra coverage. When i went back to my old deli job PT i didn't have the same contract and had basically no raise, no health, no nothing. That union caved under pressure and was stripped of its power. In Wisconsin the unions agreed to concessions which would of benefited everyone but now they stripped the right to collective bargain which means you will never get anything remotely back when times are good. SO basically that union is worthless - your paying dues for nothing.
I am completely for concessions, i think raises should be put on hold for the next 2-3 years, i think health care and contributions to pensions should be increased (slightly over time) but what I don't agree with was taking away collective bargaining.
Jenn, I appreciate your explanation!!! Thank you!!!! I want to talk to my Mom, about Dad's union, if she remembers anything, since she's 83. She might. This is a part of Family History, that I have not asked questions on. Interestingly, I do have EVERY paystub, piece of paper, belonging to my Parents, since Mom's Mom advised her to "always save everything". I haven't looked real closely at this stuff since I cleaned Mom's apt. out, when she went to the nursing home. Maybe I'll find some union related info. Mary
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| Posted 3/10/11 12:50 PM |
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nrthshgrl
It goes fast. Pay attention.
Member since 7/05 57538 total posts
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by debidonnamom
Libby, you're not alone. I get confused over who/what/the Truth is too!!!! My Dad, now deceased, belonged to a union, while employed as a paper mill worker. I don't remember much, only that during a strike, we were given some food surplus items; Boxes of Velveta cheese, is the only one I remember. I don't think union membership helped my Dad, as far as wages, because until the day he died, we were poor, and Dad worked hard, seven days a week, and on the side!! I would like to be more educated about this. Do the unions really collect dues, but do little for the members? I've heard one teacher saying the union doesn't do much to help students, that their only roll is in teacher salaries, etc. Is this true? What is the role of a union? What is it suppose to accomplish, and what does it actually do? Mary
Their bargaining power has eroded over the years but unions are the reason why vacation days, sick days, overtime & working conditions improved.
Before unions were introduced, your employer could make you work 7 days a week & you'd get no OT. You'd get docked if you were sick.
To me, it protects the employer from taking advantage. We've all seen layoffs these past few years. We've all taken on additional responsibilities of those employees that have been let go. Most of us probably haven't seen increases with those increased responsibilities. If we were unionized, there are clearer distinctions between jobs. My husband (a union electrician) has a specific responsibility. Which means, his employer can't ask him to clean up non-electrical crap on a work site, help out the carpenter with his work., etc.
I think unions have their place. As with any organization, there may be corruption, which is where things go wrong.
Posted by MrsProfessor
I don't know that he was the first to say it, but Jon Stewart said, "Only Hitler should be compared to Hitler."
So true! ITA. Love Jon Stewart!
Message edited 3/10/2011 12:57:36 PM.
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| Posted 3/10/11 12:56 PM |
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OStewarts
LIF Adult
Member since 11/07 1096 total posts
Name:
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Do the unions really collect dues, but do little for the members? I've heard one teacher saying the union doesn't do much to help students, that their only roll is in teacher salaries, etc. Is this true? What is the role of a union? What is it suppose to accomplish, and what does it actually do? Mary
Mary:
Teachers Unions are responsible for representing the teachers not the students, just as the Pilots' Union represents the pilots rather than the passengers and yes, all unions collect dues in order to pay their bills and engage in political action.
I am a union member and so are most people in my family. It's been my experience that unions negotiate a binding contract establishing higher wage rates, better benefits and more favorable work rules than employees end up with when they are on their own. Clearly, all unions are not perfect and have their own problems but so do most human institutions.
Message edited 3/10/2011 1:03:26 PM.
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| Posted 3/10/11 1:02 PM |
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debidonnamom
Kindness matters
Member since 12/10 1903 total posts
Name:
Mary (MOB)
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by nrthshgrl
Posted by debidonnamom
Libby, you're not alone. I get confused over who/what/the Truth is too!!!! My Dad, now deceased, belonged to a union, while employed as a paper mill worker. I don't remember much, only that during a strike, we were given some food surplus items; Boxes of Velveta cheese, is the only one I remember. I don't think union membership helped my Dad, as far as wages, because until the day he died, we were poor, and Dad worked hard, seven days a week, and on the side!! I would like to be more educated about this. Do the unions really collect dues, but do little for the members? I've heard one teacher saying the union doesn't do much to help students, that their only roll is in teacher salaries, etc. Is this true? What is the role of a union? What is it suppose to accomplish, and what does it actually do? Mary
Their bargaining power has eroded over the years but unions are the reason why vacation days, sick days, overtime & working conditions improved.
Before unions were introduced, your employer could make you work 7 days a week & you'd get no OT. You'd get docked if you were sick.
To me, it protects the employer from taking advantage. We've all seen layoffs these past few years. We've all taken on additional responsibilities of those employees that have been let go. Most of us probably haven't seen increases with those increased responsibilities. If we were unionized, there are clearer distinctions between jobs. My husband (a union electrician) has a specific responsibility. Which means, his employer can't ask him to clean up non-electrical crap on a work site, help out the carpenter with his work., etc.
I think unions have their place. As with any organization, there may be corruption, which is where things go wrong.
Posted by MrsProfessor
I don't know that he was the first to say it, but Jon Stewart said, "Only Hitler should be compared to Hitler."
So true! ITA. Love Jon Stewart!
Thank you for the additional info!! Mary
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| Posted 3/10/11 1:04 PM |
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debidonnamom
Kindness matters
Member since 12/10 1903 total posts
Name:
Mary (MOB)
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by OStewarts
Do the unions really collect dues, but do little for the members? I've heard one teacher saying the union doesn't do much to help students, that their only roll is in teacher salaries, etc. Is this true? What is the role of a union? What is it suppose to accomplish, and what does it actually do? Mary
Mary:
Teachers Unions are responsible for representing the teachers not the students, just as the Pilots' Union represents the pilots rather than the passengers and yes, all unions collect dues in order to pay their bills and engage in political action.
I am a union member and so are most people in my family. It's been my experience that unions negotiate a binding contract establishing higher wage rates, better benefits and more favorable work rules than employees end up with when they are on their own. Clearly, all unions are not perfect and have their own problems but so do most human institutions.
Thanks for the explanations!! I was a bit confused when the teacher said that, because my assumption was what you just said, that the union's responsibility is to the union members. Mary
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| Posted 3/10/11 1:08 PM |
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mommy2Alex
3 babies for me :)
Member since 5/05 6683 total posts
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Public unions in my opinion should not have collective bargaining rights. Federal Union employees do not. What private unions do is their business in my opinion. But Public Unions take the dues and use it to lobby politicans. They donate 90% to Democratics and they have the politicans in their back pockets which leds to corruption of the system because the politicians are "the bosses" so to speak. Even FDR did not believe in collective bargaining for Public Sector Employees because it corrupts the system. The NJ teachers union spent almost 7 million dollars lobbying politicians. That is insane
Huge difference between Public Unions/Private Unions on this issue. Once again just my opinion.
BTW - They didn't lose their collective bargaining rights with regards to wages only other benefits and it did not include Fire/Police Departments. Of all the people who work in WI this new law only effects 175,000 PUBLIC union workers.
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| Posted 3/10/11 3:26 PM |
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MarathonKnitter
HAPPY
Member since 2/07 17374 total posts
Name:
EMBRACING CHANGE
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
thanks for all the info.
the funny thing is that i'm studying labor laws and unions in my business law class, right now. i wouldn't be surprised if this becomes a topic for discussion.
i had a feeling he was making a LARGE leap in connecting hitler to what is going on in wisconsin. also, from from i read, it looks like the GOP only out-maneuvered the democrats. seems that the situation isn't final, still more voting has to take place.
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| Posted 3/10/11 3:34 PM |
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SlurpeeDad
LIF Adolescent
Member since 1/11 713 total posts
Name:
SlurpeeDad
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by mommy2Alex
Public unions in my opinion should not have collective bargaining rights. Federal Union employees do not. What private unions do is their business in my opinion. But Public Unions take the dues and use it to lobby politicans. They donate 90% to Democratics and they have the politicans in their back pockets which leds to corruption of the system because the politicians are "the bosses" so to speak. Even FDR did not believe in collective bargaining for Public Sector Employees because it corrupts the system. The NJ teachers union spent almost 7 million dollars lobbying politicians. That is insane
Well said.
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| Posted 3/10/11 3:44 PM |
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Nifheim
allo
Member since 1/09 5476 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
They lobby politicians to get equipment in the classrooms, to get more teachers hired, they lobby to pass laws the help facilitate better business practices (or at least this is what my union does) and they also push for reforms. Yes there is some serious corruption, I don't deny that. Honestly my union does so much for me I remember what it was like not having a union, working $9 per hour at a print shop with chemicals and no ventilation, no set breaks, no OT - NOTHING! It is certainly not a perfect system but neither is having no representation.
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| Posted 3/10/11 4:06 PM |
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OStewarts
LIF Adult
Member since 11/07 1096 total posts
Name:
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by mommy2Alex
Public unions in my opinion should not have collective bargaining rights. Federal Union employees do not. What private unions do is their business in my opinion. But Public Unions take the dues and use it to lobby politicans. They donate 90% to Democratics and they have the politicans in their back pockets which leds to corruption of the system because the politicians are "the bosses" so to speak. Even FDR did not believe in collective bargaining for Public Sector Employees because it corrupts the system. The NJ teachers union spent almost 7 million dollars lobbying politicians. That is insane
Huge difference between Public Unions/Private Unions on this issue. Once again just my opinion.
BTW - They didn't lose their collective bargaining rights with regards to wages only other benefits and it did not include Fire/Police Departments. Of all the people who work in WI this new law only effects 175,000 PUBLIC union workers.
I think some of your facts are inaccurate. Federal employees have collective bargaining rights. They bargain over a number of issues, including work rules,discipline, scheduling, training, etc. They are not permitted to bargain over wages or benefits - they are established by OPM,and maybe Congress, to some extent.
You're right, in that in Wisconsin, public employees lost the ability to bargain over EVERYTHING, with the exception of wages but that is limited to the rate of inflation. (Let me add, that there are also a number of other Draconian items in the bill that are union-busting, plain and simple.)
Now,as far as union dues go, we simply disagree. In my view, who teaches or other public employees give their dues to is realy their own business, since it's their own money!! It's not the state's money! The fact that public employees' unions give more money to democrats should not mean that they don't have a right to exist!! Public corporations give more money to Republicans, but they still exist despite the fact that they lobby.
Message edited 3/10/2011 4:45:43 PM.
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| Posted 3/10/11 4:44 PM |
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beachgirl13
Mommy to 3 boys!
Member since 5/05 4114 total posts
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
nevermind!
Message edited 3/10/2011 5:00:22 PM.
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| Posted 3/10/11 4:45 PM |
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Erica
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Member since 5/05 11767 total posts
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by mommy2Alex
They donate 90% to Democratics and they have the politicans in their back pockets which leds to corruption of the system because the politicians are "the bosses" so to speak.
This is b/c Democrats are the usually the pro-union supporters. But it's not a guarantee. NYSUT did not endorse Cuomo in any way. NYSUT only endorses politicians who are pro-education and pro-teacher. It makes sense. Just like tobacco companies donate to politicians who will support their cause. Just b/c it is a union of public employees does not mean they are using public money. The money comes out of our salaries (I pay ~1% of my salary to union dues) and any additional money teachers elect to donate to Vote Cope.
I think the bigger problems in this situation are lobbyists in general.
As for the Hitler connection, I see both sides. I don't have a problem with your friend speaking out though. It reminds me of the Martin Niemoller poem "First They Came" It's always good to speak out against what you think is wrong.
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| Posted 3/10/11 5:32 PM |
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mommy2Alex
3 babies for me :)
Member since 5/05 6683 total posts
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by OStewarts
Posted by mommy2Alex
I think some of your facts are inaccurate. Federal employees have collective bargaining rights. They bargain over a number of issues, including work rules,discipline, scheduling, training, etc. They are not permitted to bargain over wages or benefits - they are established by OPM,and maybe Congress, to some extent.
You're right, in that in Wisconsin, public employees lost the ability to bargain over EVERYTHING, with the exception of wages but that is limited to the rate of inflation. (Let me add, that there are also a number of other Draconian items in the bill that are union-busting, plain and simple.)
Now,as far as union dues go, we simply disagree. In my view, who teaches or other public employees give their dues to is realy their own business, since it's their own money!! It's not the state's money! The fact that public employees' unions give more money to democrats should not mean that they don't have a right to exist!! Public corporations give more money to Republicans, but they still exist despite the fact that they lobby.
I disagree with you. Public Unions are paid with taxpayer $$$$ where their union dues go is not decided by the union employees it is decided by the union bosses like Richard Trumpka and Andy Stern. When they use these dues to buy politicians and then those politicians are indebted to the unions, they give them sweet heart deals. To me that = corruption. The federal employees do not have collective bargaining rights with respect to issues that are going to bankrupt the country. I could give a crap if it is republican or democrat they are donating to. It still causes corruption. Public Corporations can use their profits however they like. But Public Unions are funded thru taxpayer $$$ and I for one and sick to death of taxes going up, up, up to pay for these sweetheart PUBLIC Union Deals! The only people in this country who should be receiving pensions and other perks for life are firefighters/police officers Military personnel. IMO - they risk their lives every day for not a very large salary and service our country with their lives. Just as in the private sector the public sector should have to fund their own retirement.
I have one girlfriend who works for the town of Riverhead. This is the last year (I think she has been there about 5 or 6 years) she has to pay for her medical benefits. After that, fully funded. She is currently 37 years old. If she lives to be 67 years old (which is very young today) and just say her benefits cost the Town 15K a year that is a total cost to the Town of $450K just for her medical benefits. Times this by the thousands of state workers and add in their pension costs and you can see how these deals are bankrupting our States.
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| Posted 3/10/11 5:33 PM |
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mommy2Alex
3 babies for me :)
Member since 5/05 6683 total posts
Name:
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by Erica
Posted by mommy2Alex
Just b/c it is a union of public employees does not mean they are using public money. The money comes out of our salaries (I pay ~1% of my salary to union dues) and any additional money teachers elect to donate to Vote Cope.
t.
Where does the Public Union Salary come from? The taxpayers because the last time I checked, school districts nor the government are entites which create wealth. They collect their revenues from the taxes they collect.
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| Posted 3/10/11 5:37 PM |
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mom2aidan
2 boys & 1 girl :)
Member since 11/06 1874 total posts
Name:
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by mommy2Alex
Posted by Erica
Posted by mommy2Alex
Just b/c it is a union of public employees does not mean they are using public money. The money comes out of our salaries (I pay ~1% of my salary to union dues) and any additional money teachers elect to donate to Vote Cope.
t.
Where does the Public Union Salary come from? The taxpayers because the last time I checked, school districts nor the government are entites which create wealth. They collect their revenues from the taxes they collect.
I don't understand your logic. Please explain.
Are you saying that because I'm paid with tax money that the money that comes out of MY CHECK towards the union is actually tax payer money?
I must be misunderstanding because by that logic, I don't really own my home or the clothes on my back, the taxpayers do....
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| Posted 3/10/11 6:07 PM |
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