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wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
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SlurpeeDad
LIF Adolescent
Member since 1/11 713 total posts
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SlurpeeDad
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by mom2aidan
The fact that you made a comment about unions in general is the problem. We are not comprised of mostly "weak workers" and people who go into some of these professions don't need incentives to work harder - they work harder for intrinsic satisfaction.
And you are right - because of what you do I don't think you work hard. I'm glad that it doesn't upset you and that you don't have to defend yourself or pump yourself up for all of LIF.
You know what, you are right. I have no idea what I am talking about. I could sit here an site examples, but you will just dismiss them. You are always right, or at least you should just keep telling yourself that.
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Posted 3/13/11 10:42 PM  |
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mom2aidan
2 boys & 1 girl :)
Member since 11/06 1874 total posts
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by SlurpeeDad
Posted by mom2aidan
The fact that you made a comment about unions in general is the problem. We are not comprised of mostly "weak workers" and people who go into some of these professions don't need incentives to work harder - they work harder for intrinsic satisfaction.
And you are right - because of what you do I don't think you work hard. I'm glad that it doesn't upset you and that you don't have to defend yourself or pump yourself up for all of LIF.
You know what, you are right. I have no idea what I am talking about. I could sit here an site examples, but you will just dismiss them. You are always right, or at least you should just keep telling yourself that.
?
I didn't say that I was right. I said that you were right,
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| Posted 3/13/11 10:48 PM |
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SlurpeeDad
LIF Adolescent
Member since 1/11 713 total posts
Name:
SlurpeeDad
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by mom2aidan
Posted by SlurpeeDad
Posted by mom2aidan
The fact that you made a comment about unions in general is the problem. We are not comprised of mostly "weak workers" and people who go into some of these professions don't need incentives to work harder - they work harder for intrinsic satisfaction.
And you are right - because of what you do I don't think you work hard. I'm glad that it doesn't upset you and that you don't have to defend yourself or pump yourself up for all of LIF.
You know what, you are right. I have no idea what I am talking about. I could sit here an site examples, but you will just dismiss them. You are always right, or at least you should just keep telling yourself that.
?
I didn't say that I was right. I said that you were right,
Not about me working hard, like I said, I don't care what you think about me. You are right about everything else, you always are, and you always will be. It must be frustrating to read these boards when you know you are always right.
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| Posted 3/13/11 10:52 PM |
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mom2aidan
2 boys & 1 girl :)
Member since 11/06 1874 total posts
Name:
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by SlurpeeDad
Posted by mom2aidan
Posted by SlurpeeDad
Posted by mom2aidan
The fact that you made a comment about unions in general is the problem. We are not comprised of mostly "weak workers" and people who go into some of these professions don't need incentives to work harder - they work harder for intrinsic satisfaction.
And you are right - because of what you do I don't think you work hard. I'm glad that it doesn't upset you and that you don't have to defend yourself or pump yourself up for all of LIF.
You know what, you are right. I have no idea what I am talking about. I could sit here an site examples, but you will just dismiss them. You are always right, or at least you should just keep telling yourself that.
?
I didn't say that I was right. I said that you were right,
Not about me working hard, like I said, I don't care what you think about me. You are right about everything else, you always are, and you always will be. It must be frustrating to read these boards when you know you are always right.
You must have me confused with someone else - yourself, perhaps? I never said I was right and someone else was wrong - but I have stated my beliefs as passionately as you have stated yours. There is no reason to become "defensive".
What I AM right about is that every union worker I KNOW and have the pleasure of working with works hard and is an asset to the community. That is my experience and it's unfortunate that yours hasn't been the same.
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| Posted 3/13/11 11:01 PM |
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ChrisDee
My Girls
Member since 11/06 9543 total posts
Name:
Christine
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by mom2aidan
Posted by ttcc
Posted by SlurpeeDad
I think unions, now, protect the weak workers and don't provide any incentive to work hard and rise above the rest. JMO.
This comment bothers the $hit out of me. I am in a union and I work hard b/c I WANT to do my job well. I WANT my students to learn. I understand that I am getting paid to do a job so I do it. I don't stop doing it b/c i have tenure.
Gee, I better go tell my FDNY/Union member DH that he is golf teacher thinks he is a weak worker... he just got off an almost 36 hour shift, 10 of which were spent putting out and investigating a building fire started by someone who was smoking a cigarette in bed.... he probably wasn't trying hard enough or working hard enough to put the fire out.... some people - and their blanket statements - are just unbelievable....
I do not think that SlurpeeDad said ALL union workers are weak workers. I believe he stated that the union protects those workers within the union that ARE weak(it could mean just a handful) and provides those workers with no incentive to try harder. My husband is a hard working member of a private union and I can see this as being true, for sure. That being said there are some perks to his(private) union.
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| Posted 3/14/11 8:33 AM |
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cjik
Welcome 2010!
Member since 2/06 8879 total posts
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by ChrisDee
I do not think that SlurpeeDad said ALL union workers are weak workers. I believe he stated that the union protects those workers within the union that ARE weak(it could mean just a handful) and provides those workers with no incentive to try harder. My husband is a hard working member of a private union and I can see this as being true, for sure. That being said there are some perks to his(private) union.
ITA. I was a union worker and there were a lot of people who consistently went above and beyond, performed at 110% and did whatever was needed to get the job done.
But there were also some who would leave the building no matter what was going on (in one case a manager left while teens were fighting because it was 5 pm and she was off the clock). Or there were people who just came in every day, barely did a thing, but as long as they showed up and didn't commit an act of violence, it was very hard to demote them or let them go. These folks were the exception to the rule rather than the rule, but it does happen.
I do think unions inadvertantly encourage this behavior since jobs are protected--in a non-union workplace, most of these people would be out of there.
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| Posted 3/14/11 9:58 AM |
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nrthshgrl
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Member since 7/05 57538 total posts
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by SlurpeeDad
Posted by beachgirl13
It bothers me that people blame unions for so many problems. Do people really want to go back to the way things were before unions? They paved the way for all the benefits and working conditions you have now, even if you aren't part of a union.
I agree that unions paved the way for better working conditions. I don't think working conditions would change if unions came to an end. I think unions, now, protect the weak workers and don't provide any incentive to work hard and rise above the rest. JMO.
First, I'm not sure where you're getting your information from or if you are basing it solely on one union you have experience in. I am not union & never have been. My husband is union & always has been. My dad was on the other side as an employer for decades.
I definitely believe that working conditions would be significantly worse. Every time I hear of an accident on a construction site, it's almost always a non-union shop. Companies cut cost little by little & it erodes safety regulations that were put into place for that specific reason. I've seen it first hand with friends running their own businesses. No need to wear a mask, even though you're breathing in steel dust. The eyeglasses are expensive if a worker doesn't want to wear them, that's ok, etc.
Second, from what I've seen there is no protecting a weak worker in this economy. While my husband hasn't been on the 52 week layoff that some of co-workers have, they are laying off some of their best workers.
As a parent point of view on teachers, I will never understand why it's so hard for people to comprehend that tenure isn't a job guarantee but a process to ensure whatever sanctions, terminations are FAIR. Having people with tenure on the job may suck when you're in your 20s - but when you're in your 40-50s-60s, I can assure you the idea of being phased out because your salary is too high is a scary thing. I'm in HR & would love a job with job security. I'm sure we all would. To ensure that our boss can't fly off the handle & terminate us without significant documentation & an outside opinion. I've seen parents bash teachers that I thought were terrific. In fact, I do know a teacher that I'd love to "put out to pasture" because I think she's going through the motions. Other parents LOVE the same teacher. Why should one parent's (even if that parent is ME) opinion carry so much weight?
Before you make blanket statements about unions, I'd love to hear what experience you have with them & where you are getting your information.
Also if you're engaging in a debate, try being respectful. In my mind, you lose your argument once emotions come into play or flip responses.
Message edited 3/14/2011 10:51:22 AM.
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| Posted 3/14/11 10:47 AM |
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SlurpeeDad
LIF Adolescent
Member since 1/11 713 total posts
Name:
SlurpeeDad
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by nrthshgrl
First, I'm not sure where you're getting your information from or if you are basing it solely on one union you have experience in. I am not union & never have been. My husband is union & always has been. My dad was on the other side as an employer for decades.
I definitely believe that working conditions would be significantly worse. Every time I hear of an accident on a construction site, it's almost always a non-union shop. Companies cut cost little by little & it erodes safety regulations that were put into place for that specific reason. I've seen it first hand with friends running their own businesses. No need to wear a mask, even though you're breathing in steel dust. The eyeglasses are expensive if a worker doesn't want to wear them, that's ok, etc.
Second, from what I've seen there is no protecting a weak worker in this economy. While my husband hasn't been on the 52 week layoff that some of co-workers have, they are laying off some of their best workers.
As a parent point of view on teachers, I will never understand why it's so hard for people to comprehend that tenure isn't a job guarantee but a process to ensure whatever sanctions, terminations are FAIR. Having people with tenure on the job may suck when you're in your 20s - but when you're in your 40-50s-60s, I can assure you the idea of being phased out because your salary is too high is a scary thing. I'm in HR & would love a job with job security. I'm sure we all would. To ensure that our boss can't fly off the handle & terminate us without significant documentation & an outside opinion. I've seen parents bash teachers that I thought were terrific. In fact, I do know a teacher that I'd love to "put out to pasture" because I think she's going through the motions. Other parents LOVE the same teacher. Why should one parent's (even if that parent is ME) opinion carry so much weight?
Before you make blanket statements about unions, I'd love to hear what experience you have with them & where you are getting your information.
Also if you're engaging in a debate, try being respectful. In my mind, you lose your argument once emotions come into play or flip responses.
I really don't know which part of this post I want to comment on the most. The last part is the one that got my attention the most. I think I have been very respectful on this board, and outside of a few people that have defended me or FM'd me, I have not gotten that respect back. I responded to mom2aiden with the same attitude that she gave me. I don't think I was disrespectful, just letting her know how she sounded.
I disregard the tenure part, because never once did I mention tenure. I think your argument actually sides with mine, since you immediately went to tenure, making it sound that teachers with tenure don't work as hard (I never said that and never will.)
You want my experience with unions, you got it. My father owned a warehouse. He had some great employees, and treated them well, but there was some things that the union jobs offered that my father couldn't. One employee told him he was leaving and my dad said no problem, and he wished this employee well. Several weeks later, this former employee returns asking to work for him again. My dad asked why, and the fellow said that his job went on strike, he didn't agree with why they were on strike, but that he needs to work and working was more important that striking because other people weren't happy.
My cousin worked a union job after college and was excited to get to work. He was the young, go get 'em type, and didn't want to be slowed down. His first day of work, he was told that he better slow down because he didn't want to 'get in an accident.' He didn't quite understand what they meant until one guy pulled him aside and said 'if you keep working this hard, you will make us all look bad and you will get hurt.'
I know these are two small stories, and probably insignificant to you, but they are the taste that is left in my mouth. I know unions offer a lot of good things, but I think the road they are going down can hurt rather then help.
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| Posted 3/14/11 12:20 PM |
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twiceasnice
LIF Adult
Member since 2/08 1126 total posts
Name:
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by SlurpeeDad
My cousin worked a union job after college and was excited to get to work. He was the young, go get 'em type, and didn't want to be slowed down. His first day of work, he was told that he better slow down because he didn't want to 'get in an accident.' He didn't quite understand what they meant until one guy pulled him aside and said 'if you keep working this hard, you will make us all look bad and you will get hurt.'
I have heard this all too many times...my father, brother and my husband...all 3 went off and started their own business because the couldn't deal with the nonsense at the unions.
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| Posted 3/14/11 1:22 PM |
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nrthshgrl
It goes fast. Pay attention.
Member since 7/05 57538 total posts
Name:
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by SlurpeeDad
I think I have been very respectful on this board, and outside of a few people that have defended me or FM'd me, I have not gotten that respect back. I responded to mom2aiden with the same attitude that she gave me. I don't think I was disrespectful, just letting her know how she sounded.
I'm sorry. I must have mistaken this
Posted by SlurpeeDad
You are always right, or at least you should just keep telling yourself that.
for being a flippant response. I didn't realize you were just letting her know how she sounded
Posted by SlurpeeDad
I disregard the tenure part, because never once did I mention tenure. I think your argument actually sides with mine, since you immediately went to tenure, making it sound that teachers with tenure don't work as hard (I never said that and never will.)
You want my experience with unions, you got it. My father owned a warehouse. He had some great employees, and treated them well, but there was some things that the union jobs offered that my father couldn't. One employee told him he was leaving and my dad said no problem, and he wished this employee well. Several weeks later, this former employee returns asking to work for him again. My dad asked why, and the fellow said that his job went on strike, he didn't agree with why they were on strike, but that he needs to work and working was more important that striking because other people weren't happy.
My cousin worked a union job after college and was excited to get to work. He was the young, go get 'em type, and didn't want to be slowed down. His first day of work, he was told that he better slow down because he didn't want to 'get in an accident.' He didn't quite understand what they meant until one guy pulled him aside and said 'if you keep working this hard, you will make us all look bad and you will get hurt.'
I know these are two small stories, and probably insignificant to you, but they are the taste that is left in my mouth. I know unions offer a lot of good things, but I think the road they are going down can hurt rather then help.
Why would you say they were insignificant to me if I was the one that asked for your background with unions?
Your opinion that unions are hurtful rather than helpful is based on your experience, no?
It's the same thing with my experience. I can see both sides of it. With the scaling down of the workforce, more & more work is being piled up on the workers that remain - which is why I see them as being helpful in this economy. We're accepting more responsibility which can be a good thing but we're not compensated properly.
Are you the golf course guy or do I have you confused with another poster? If you were running a golf course & fired the lawn maintenace crew & told you I needed you to do it without extra pay because our golf course is struggling, you might do it. If later on, you see the golf course is doing better, but I realized I don't have to pay the lawn guy, I can just have you do it, then I've just saved a salary. Unions prevent that - among a million other things from happening.
I've also heard of the "slow down you're making us look bad" too. Well more of a he said/she said type of thing. My DH is working as fast as he can to get the job done because they are looking at time & materials on his job.
There are good & bad in every scenario. I sit on both employer & employee so I can see both sides of fence. Can you?
Message edited 3/14/2011 2:47:27 PM.
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| Posted 3/14/11 2:44 PM |
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SlurpeeDad
LIF Adolescent
Member since 1/11 713 total posts
Name:
SlurpeeDad
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by nrthshgrl
Why would you say they were insignificant to me if I was the one that asked for your background with unions?
Your opinion that unions are hurtful rather than helpful is based on your experience, no?
It's the same thing with my experience. I can see both sides of it. With the scaling down of the workforce, more & more work is being piled up on the workers that remain - which is why I see them as being helpful in this economy. We're accepting more responsibility which can be a good thing but we're not compensated properly.
Are you the golf course guy or do I have you confused with another poster? If you were running a golf course & fired the lawn maintenace crew & told you I needed you to do it without extra pay because our golf course is struggling, you might do it. If later on, you see the golf course is doing better, but I realized I don't have to pay the lawn guy, I can just have you do it, then I've just saved a salary. Unions prevent that - among a million other things from happening.
I've also heard of the "slow down you're making us look bad" too. Well more of a he said/she said type of thing. My DH is working as fast as he can to get the job done because they are looking at time & materials on his job.
There are good & bad in every scenario. I sit on both employer & employee so I can see both sides of fence. Can you?
That isn't what I do at the golf course, but I understand what you are saying. I guess I haven't come across a company that I have worked for (golf or non-golf) that has treated their employees unfairly. I can see both sides of the fence, but there is always once side that looks nicer than the other.
I do have a slightly off-topic question though. What is your opinion of the people that sit outside of a building with the big rat blown up and picketing for not using union workers?
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| Posted 3/14/11 3:51 PM |
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nrthshgrl
It goes fast. Pay attention.
Member since 7/05 57538 total posts
Name:
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Not a fan of the big blow up rat. I'm ok with picketing. But with my dad formerly in heavy construction and a husband in construction now, I've heard of what the alternative was in the past. It's rare you hear of people getting thrown down elevator shafts, so I suppose they're making progress.
The distaste for the rat may really about all blow up lawn ornaments though. 
Message edited 3/14/2011 6:11:20 PM.
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| Posted 3/14/11 6:09 PM |
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ChrisDee
My Girls
Member since 11/06 9543 total posts
Name:
Christine
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
Posted by nrthshgrl
Not a fan of the big blow up rat. I'm ok with picketing. But with my dad formerly in heavy construction and a husband in construction now, I've heard of what the alternative was in the past. It's rare you hear of people getting thrown down elevator shafts, so I suppose they're making progress.
The distaste for the rat may really about all blow up lawn ornaments though.
Barb, I believe that the rat has been banned. Either in the city or Long Island, can't remember which. I will ask DH when he wakes up.(yes, he is sleeping at 6:30pm He will be waking up around 8:30pm for Union job working the Midnight shift) He is in a great union(Local 94) it is very different then a lot of other unions. My dad, 2 brothers and 3 cousins are all in Local 94.
Message edited 3/14/2011 6:28:02 PM.
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| Posted 3/14/11 6:26 PM |
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mom2aidan
2 boys & 1 girl :)
Member since 11/06 1874 total posts
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
I sent SlurpeeDad a private apology but I wanted to apologize to him on the thread as well.
I have a lot going on (as we all do) and I haven't been myself lately. The whole union/FDNY/teachers suck/special needs kids suck money from the districts got a bee in my bonnet that has set me off, not just here, but IRL. I think it's because there are $9 million in cuts this year and there is a distinct possibility that my program will be cut so maybe the whole topic has me soured, anyway, I shouldn't have been so curt with you.
And I DO think that golf teachers work hard (don't all teachers  ?)
I actually just got my union member DH a package for lessons from Alley Pond and I wouldn't have paid as much as I did if I didn't think it was worth it.
I'm sorry SlurpeeDad if I hurt your feelings or I was being disrespectful in any way 
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| Posted 3/14/11 6:54 PM |
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SlurpeeDad
LIF Adolescent
Member since 1/11 713 total posts
Name:
SlurpeeDad
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
mom2aiden...all is forgiven. I am sorry if I came across as rude. Good luck with DH's golf lessons!
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| Posted 3/14/11 6:58 PM |
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Erica
LIF Adult
Member since 5/05 11767 total posts
Name:
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Re: wisconsin, unions, hitler... please connect the dots for me
I'm union and I got 40% more work this year!  somethings wrong here! I got only my contractual raise for this - which I would have gotten if I didn't have the extra work.
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| Posted 3/14/11 7:28 PM |
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