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WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

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melbalalala
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Melissa

WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

I have been saying this for YEARS. 90% of people that go to college shouldn't or don't need to. I know very few people would couldn't do their current jobs without having gone to college.

I think there should be a much bigger focus on trade schools. This loonogg article focuses on certification exams.

Would love everyone's thoughts on this. Not sure if it's just the nerdy labor economist in me that loves this stuff Chat Icon


For Most People,
College Is a Waste of Time
By CHARLES MURRAY

August 13, 2008; Page A17

Imagine that America had no system of post-secondary education, and you were a member of a task force assigned to create one from scratch. One of your colleagues submits this proposal:

First, we will set up a single goal to represent educational success, which will take four years to achieve no matter what is being taught. We will attach an economic reward to it that seldom has anything to do with what has been learned. We will urge large numbers of people who do not possess adequate ability to try to achieve the goal, wait until they have spent a lot of time and money, and then deny it to them. We will stigmatize everyone who doesn't meet the goal. We will call the goal a "BA."

You would conclude that your colleague was cruel, not to say insane. But that's the system we have in place.

Finding a better way should be easy. The BA acquired its current inflated status by accident. Advanced skills for people with brains really did get more valuable over the course of the 20th century, but the acquisition of those skills got conflated with the existing system of colleges, which had evolved the BA for completely different purposes.

Outside a handful of majors -- engineering and some of the sciences -- a bachelor's degree tells an employer nothing except that the applicant has a certain amount of intellectual ability and perseverance. Even a degree in a vocational major like business administration can mean anything from a solid base of knowledge to four years of barely remembered gut courses.

The solution is not better degrees, but no degrees. Young people entering the job market should have a known, trusted measure of their qualifications they can carry into job interviews. That measure should express what they know, not where they learned it or how long it took them. They need a certification, not a degree.

The model is the CPA exam that qualifies certified public accountants. The same test is used nationwide. It is thorough -- four sections, timed, totaling 14 hours. A passing score indicates authentic competence (the pass rate is below 50%). Actual scores are reported in addition to pass/fail, so that employers can assess where the applicant falls in the distribution of accounting competence. You may have learned accounting at an anonymous online university, but your CPA score gives you a way to show employers you're a stronger applicant than someone from an Ivy League school.

The merits of a CPA-like certification exam apply to any college major for which the BA is now used as a job qualification. To name just some of them: criminal justice, social work, public administration and the many separate majors under the headings of business, computer science and education. Such majors accounted for almost two-thirds of the bachelor's degrees conferred in 2005. For that matter, certification tests can be used for purely academic disciplines. Why not present graduate schools with certifications in microbiology or economics -- and who cares if the applicants passed the exam after studying in the local public library?

Certification tests need not undermine the incentives to get a traditional liberal-arts education. If professional and graduate schools want students who have acquired one, all they need do is require certification scores in the appropriate disciplines. Students facing such requirements are likely to get a much better liberal education than even our most elite schools require now.
C
ertification tests will not get rid of the problems associated with differences in intellectual ability: People with high intellectual ability will still have an edge. Graduates of prestigious colleges will still, on average, have higher certification scores than people who have taken online courses -- just because prestigious colleges attract intellectually talented applicants.

But that's irrelevant to the larger issue. Under a certification system, four years is not required, residence is not required, expensive tuitions are not required, and a degree is not required. Equal educational opportunity means, among other things, creating a society in which it's what you know that makes the difference. Substituting certifications for degrees would be a big step in that direction.

The incentives are right. Certification tests would provide all employers with valuable, trustworthy information about job applicants. They would benefit young people who cannot or do not want to attend a traditional four-year college. They would be welcomed by the growing post-secondary online educational industry, which cannot offer the halo effect of a BA from a traditional college, but can realistically promise their students good training for a certification test -- as good as they are likely to get at a traditional college, for a lot less money and in a lot less time.

Certification tests would disadvantage just one set of people: Students who have gotten into well-known traditional schools, but who are coasting through their years in college and would score poorly on a certification test. Disadvantaging them is an outcome devoutly to be wished.

No technical barriers stand in the way of evolving toward a system where certification tests would replace the BA. Hundreds of certification tests already exist, for everything from building code inspectors to advanced medical specialties. The problem is a shortage of tests that are nationally accepted, like the CPA exam.

But when so many of the players would benefit, a market opportunity exists. If a high-profile testing company such as the Educational Testing Service were to reach a strategic decision to create definitive certification tests, it could coordinate with major employers, professional groups and nontraditional universities to make its tests the gold standard. A handful of key decisions could produce a tipping effect. Imagine if Microsoft announced it would henceforth require scores on a certain battery of certification tests from all of its programming applicants. Scores on that battery would acquire instant credibility for programming job applicants throughout the industry.

An educational world based on certification tests would be a better place in many ways, but the overarching benefit is that the line between college and noncollege competencies would be blurred. Hardly any jobs would still have the BA as a requirement for a shot at being hired. Opportunities would be wider and fairer, and the stigma of not having a BA would diminish.

Most important in an increasingly class-riven America: The demonstration of competency in business administration or European history would, appropriately, take on similarities to the demonstration of competency in cooking or welding. Our obsession with the BA has created a two-tiered entry to adulthood, anointing some for admission to the club and labeling the rest as second-best.

Here's the reality: Everyone in every occupation starts as an apprentice. Those who are good enough become journeymen. The best become master craftsmen. This is as true of business executives and history professors as of chefs and welders. Getting rid of the BA and replacing it with evidence of competence -- treating post-secondary education as apprenticeships for everyone -- is one way to help us to recognize that common bond.
Mr. Murray is the W.H. Brady Scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. This essay is adapted from his forthcoming book, "Real Education: Four Simple Truths for Bringing America's Schools Back to Reality" (Crown Forum).

Message edited 8/14/2008 8:56:55 AM.

Posted 8/14/08 8:56 AM
 
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2BEANS
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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

I went to college and got a degree, but then went to a trade school through the hospital and thats the career im in now. The only perk of the college degree is it looks better on resume.

Posted 8/14/08 8:59 AM
 

ready2ttc
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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

Totally disagree. College, aside from degree preparation, is also life preparation. Yes, I entered college knowing how to write, but college was where I honed those skills, and learned how to think critically. It makes us better workers, better citizens, and better parents.

Institute more exams and there will still be that class issue. Just like SAT preparation classes, people with more money will spend the time and money to do better on the exam, and those with less with be at a disadvantage.

Yes, college may be about perserverence, but in the end, success is about perserverence. And I disagree that students come to graduation and are randomly told they aren't good enough...There is a system of checks and balances to let people know that they aren't successful BEFORE they spend four years of time and tuition, and reach out with help or provide alternatives.

Posted 8/14/08 9:07 AM
 

tourist

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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

Hmmm. That's an intersting one or me. I needed a BA for this job, but it wasn't specifically tied to what I do. However, itis required, since this job is tied to academia. If no-one went to college, I wouldn't have this job! Chat Icon

I guess there would be a similar job for the trade schools, so yes a more training oriented job might have helped, but I would have missed out on alot without having taking classes in philosophy, religion, etc. It is possible, and valuable, IMO, to learn things without them directly applying to a career course. It makes for more intesting conversations & a better understanding of the world around you.
Chat Icon

So, the proposed system in the article would probably have done me a disservice. I do not come from money , and am not a genius, so if I had to chose between the 2, I would have ended up withteh more practically, less well-rounded approach.

With the way things are now, I was able to go to coellge just to learn, because just having any type of BA would help me get a job.

Posted 8/14/08 9:12 AM
 

ml110
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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

i just skimmed the article, but Dh and i have been saying this for years, too! too many people go to college and get degrees in things that aren't marketable or that they'll have trouble getting a job in in the future. our friend went to UCONN and his parents spent a fortune for him to get a history degree. hes now working as a computer help desk tech-- a job he probably could have gotten with a 2 year trade school degree.
my parents both have degrees, BUT they own their own garden center and make 6 figures a year with 6 months off a year... granted, my mom's accounting degree is helpful for running the business end of stuff, but probably not necessary.
my uncles went to a vocational high school and now own their own custom cabinet making business together and are doing really well.
"Blue collar" jobs are becoming more in demand, but have less people going into them.
DH and i have always said that while we would like our kids to go to college, we'll also encourage them to look into trades and trade schools if theres something like that the interests them.

Posted 8/14/08 9:21 AM
 

nov04libride
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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

I think it's funny that Murray, who has written so extensively AGAINST standardized testing, is now a proponent of MORE testing.

In one of his articles he said "I want to teach my students how to write," he said, "not teach them how to pass a test that says they can write." How ironic that now he thinks that tests are a replacement for education.

Posted 8/14/08 9:49 AM
 

tourist

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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

Posted by nov04libride

I think it's funny that Murray, who has written so extensively AGAINST standardized testing, is now a proponent of MORE testing.

In one of his articles he said "I want to teach my students how to write," he said, "not teach them how to pass a test that says they can write." How ironic that now he thinks that tests are a replacement for education.



I'm not familiar with Murray, but I am a somewhat familiar with AEI. I thought they were pro-testing in general? Maybe he had to write this because he was ruffling too many feathers? Chat Icon

Posted 8/14/08 9:53 AM
 

nov04libride
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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

The rest of the article says

"There is no magic point at which a genuine college-level education becomes an option, but anything below an IQ of 110 is problematic. If you want to do well, you should have an IQ of 115 or higher. Put another way, it makes sense for only about 15% of the population, 25% if one stretches it, to get a college education."

Basically he feels that everyone with an IQ of less than 100 should not go (or be allowed to go?) to college. In a democratic, free-will society, I don't think it is up for the government to decide who will continue with education, or what career he will pursue.

He says "Government policy contributes to the problem by making college scholarships and loans too easy to get, but its role is ancillary." So instead of providing need-based loans, our government should only give money to people with IQs in the top 15% of the population, since they are the only ones who will benefit from a college education. Sounds slightly communist, doesn't it?

Posted 8/14/08 9:55 AM
 

nov04libride
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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

Posted by tourist

Posted by nov04libride

I think it's funny that Murray, who has written so extensively AGAINST standardized testing, is now a proponent of MORE testing.

In one of his articles he said "I want to teach my students how to write," he said, "not teach them how to pass a test that says they can write." How ironic that now he thinks that tests are a replacement for education.



I'm not familiar with Murray, but I am a somewhat familiar with AEI. I thought they were pro-testing in general? Maybe he had to write this because he was ruffling too many feathers? Chat Icon



Well, it was against NCLB and the disadvantages of using test scores as a means of judging educational progress. I don't know, but I always tend to agree with the Brookings Instutite instead of AEI. Chat Icon A little too Republican for me... AEI also doesn't believe that global warming is taking place...

Message edited 8/14/2008 10:00:49 AM.

Posted 8/14/08 9:57 AM
 

MrsPorkChop
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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

my college was a sort of trade school, for merchant mariners, maritime business executers and engineers..we were placed in very specific roles after grautating that i feel we excel in over our counterparts who did not attend my college so i "sort" of agree to an extent.

Message edited 8/14/2008 9:58:41 AM.

Posted 8/14/08 9:57 AM
 

isabelle2137
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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

While I agree that the college experience is about more than the degree, I don't think it needs to be 4 years. I went to a business school that was very limited on liberal arts requirements, and I can honestly say I am better off in my current field/career.

Posted 8/14/08 10:12 AM
 

melbalalala
Little Lady

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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

Posted by ml110

i just skimmed the article, but Dh and i have been saying this for years, too! too many people go to college and get degrees in things that aren't marketable or that they'll have trouble getting a job in in the future. our friend went to UCONN and his parents spent a fortune for him to get a history degree. hes now working as a computer help desk tech-- a job he probably could have gotten with a 2 year trade school degree.
my parents both have degrees, BUT they own their own garden center and make 6 figures a year with 6 months off a year... granted, my mom's accounting degree is helpful for running the business end of stuff, but probably not necessary.
my uncles went to a vocational high school and now own their own custom cabinet making business together and are doing really well.
"Blue collar" jobs are becoming more in demand, but have less people going into them.
DH and i have always said that while we would like our kids to go to college, we'll also encourage them to look into trades and trade schools if theres something like that the interests them.



Ummm are you spying on me and my DH? Chat Icon This is EXACTLY what we say. I have a BA and an MBA, and I could do my job with a high school diploma and some good on-the-job-training.

BBC has a fantastic series where they follow people around going to different trade schools and they talk about why they chose that over college. I caught an episode when I was over in Europe last and it was a kid from LA that tried college and wondered "why am I learning about Russian history as a business major?" so he went to a 6 month school for the LA electric company to become a line repairer and made like $50k coming out of it.

I would totally encourage my kids to attend a trade school or develop a "blue collar skill".

Posted 8/14/08 10:12 AM
 

Ophelia
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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

I agree with this in most instances.

I don't feel that college makes you any smarter or better prepared for most careers.

are there jobs that require specialization..YES. but the whole "elective" program blows my mind.

I have met some people who are dumber than a box of rocks...they have masters degrees but can't spell and have terrible grammar.

i've also met people who didnt' graduate from HIGH SCHOOL that have better mathematical skills and a better vocabulary than I could ever dream of.

A monkey could do most admin jobs (I know, I sorta have one) yet how many companies "require" a BA to perform EXTREMELY basic tasks.

we end up spending 40k on an education that we could have spent 15k to have the skills to perform out jobs. and I think that is what it boils down to. think of how many billions of dollars the "college" industry generates...from tuition to CRAZY expensive books (and the writers/editors/publishing houses that earn their keep from them)....it's all about makiing the money.

the stuff you learn in elective classes just gives you more to talk about at a cocktail party...or on the internet (anyone care to discuss Dostoevsky Chat Icon )

Posted 8/14/08 10:13 AM
 

nov04libride
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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

Posted by Ophelia
we end up spending 40k on an education that we could have spent 15k to have the skills to perform out jobs. and I think that is what it boils down to. think of how many billions of dollars the "college" industry generates...from tuition to CRAZY expensive books (and the writers/editors/publishing houses that earn their keep from them)....it's all about makiing the money.



This may be true for private schools, but I teach at a public college and in-state tuition doesn't even cover the basic costs associated with attending the school. We depend on out of state and international students with higher tuition to make up the difference, and even then each year we run a huge deficit. The cost of the buildings, the staff, the faculty, etc. is huge. Public higher education is definitely not a money-maker for the college or state. People complain about public tuition that is about $4,000 a year. I made working just during the summer while in college.

Message edited 8/14/2008 10:22:22 AM.

Posted 8/14/08 10:17 AM
 

Ophelia
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remember, when Gulliver traveled....

Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

Posted by nov04libride

Posted by Ophelia
we end up spending 40k on an education that we could have spent 15k to have the skills to perform out jobs. and I think that is what it boils down to. think of how many billions of dollars the "college" industry generates...from tuition to CRAZY expensive books (and the writers/editors/publishing houses that earn their keep from them)....it's all about makiing the money.



This may be true for private schools, but I teach at a public college and in-state tuition doesn't even cover the basic costs associated with attending the school. We depend on out of state and international students with higher tuition to make up the difference, and even then each year we run a huge deficit. The cost of the buildings, the staff, the faculty, etc. is huge. Public higher education is definitely not a money-maker for the college or state.



I understand that. I went to CUNY myself (my mama didn't raise a fool)

I was speaking GENERALLY.

although, with Barnes & Noble in our bookstores...I am sure they are doing a bit better.

I am tremendously grateful for my CUNY EDU....but it still would have been cheaper for me per credit had I just needed to take the psych classes I needed for my major.

I ended up with an english minor and just below enough credits to become a certified drug counselor...all b/c of ELECTIVES!!! (it was totally interesting but totally unnecessary, KWIM)

Posted 8/14/08 10:21 AM
 

Lisa
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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

I agree! IMO college doesnt prepare you for the real world at all. Working for a company is so different than reading examples in a classroom.

what college should be is a combo of classes and a job working in the field that you choose. That way they can apply their learning knowledge to what they are doing with their job.

Posted 8/14/08 10:26 AM
 

nov04libride
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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

Posted by Lisa

I agree! IMO college doesnt prepare you for the real world at all. Working for a company is so different than reading examples in a classroom.

what college should be is a combo of classes and a job working in the field that you choose. That way they can apply their learning knowledge to what they are doing with their job.



I think most colleges do recommend an internship at some point so that you aren't applying for jobs with no experience.

I think one of the problems is that people choose majors that they enjoy (GREAT!), but don't give much thought to what they will do after. Psychology is our most popular major. Now where will you find most Psych majors...Working at the local mall. I can run down the careers that it prepares students for, or the graduate programs, but the reality is that it doesn't prepare you for a whole lot in the way of work with the BA or BS degree only.

Posted 8/14/08 10:32 AM
 

Ophelia
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remember, when Gulliver traveled....

Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

Posted by nov04libride

Posted by Lisa

I agree! IMO college doesnt prepare you for the real world at all. Working for a company is so different than reading examples in a classroom.

what college should be is a combo of classes and a job working in the field that you choose. That way they can apply their learning knowledge to what they are doing with their job.



I think most colleges do recommend an internship at some point so that you aren't applying for jobs with no experience.

I think one of the problems is that people choose majors that they enjoy (GREAT!), but don't give much thought to what they will do after. Psychology is our most popular major. Now where will you find most Psych majors...Working at the local mall. I can run down the careers that it prepares students for, or the graduate programs, but the reality is that it doesn't prepare you for a whole lot in the way of work with the BA or BS degree only.



and that in and off itself is ridiculous.

if you combined the credits NEEDED towards your major in both the BA and MA programs in Psych....you'd still be under the necessary amount of credits needed to graduate with a bachelors degree.

why is that?

why can't I go to school for psych and stay in school, ONE program until I have the necessary knowlege and skills needed to perform in job that I went to school for. why can't THAT be the standard and the curriculum I follow?

it makes ZERO sense.

Posted 8/14/08 10:35 AM
 

nov04libride
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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

Posted by Ophelia

and that in and off itself is ridiculous.

if you combined the credits NEEDED towards your major in both the BA and MA programs in Psych....you'd still be under the necessary amount of credits needed to graduate with a bachelors degree.

why is that?

why can't I go to school for psych and stay in school, ONE program until I have the necessary knowlege and skills needed to perform in job that I went to school for. why can't THAT be the standard and the curriculum I follow?

it makes ZERO sense.



I hear what you are saying, and I do agree to some extent. But I do think it's good to have a general background in a lot of areas. I don't have a psych degree, but I took a couple classes so when Maslow's hierarchy of needs comes up in conversation, I can hold my own (Chat Icon but it has actually come up at work and I haven't looked like a fool). I use very low level math, but am glad to have taken calc, and to have a basic understanding of Chem and Bio through just intro courses. I'm glad to have taken literature to know major writers, and history and political science to know more about politics and our world.

And one of the things about general requirements is that 80% of freshmen don't enter knowing what they want to major in (and over 1/2 of students change their major once or more) and the various requirements force them to take courses they may not choose...And many end up choosing those majors. Freshmen may not even know what anthropology or linguistics are coming from HS, but once they take an intro class, may love the subject.

Posted 8/14/08 10:41 AM
 

seaside
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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

I have strong views on this--sorry.

100% agree that college is not for everyone. College students who are functionally lliterate should not be receiving degrees. College students who plagiarize right off of the internet and don't understand why that's wrong shouldnot be receiving degrees. College should be a privilege for those who have, by college time, honed the skills and the work ethic needed to be a true student. It's not for everyone, and it shouldn't be capable of being "faked".

If someone wants to move away from their parents and party and drink all the time and get away with doing as little as possible for a period of years, fine. Get your parents to sign on to pay for it and do it--but call it what it is. But to grant college degrees to legitimize this and those who emerge from the experience as unskilled & lazy as ever is to make a mcokery of American education.

Posted 8/14/08 10:53 AM
 

bird382
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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

Posted by seaside
But to grant college degrees to legitimize this and those who emerge from the experience as unskilled & lazy as ever is to make a mcokery of American education.

And it's not just on an undergraduate level. I know MANY people with master's degrees and a few with PhDs who should have been weeded out long before earning their degrees.

Posted 8/14/08 11:02 AM
 

nov04libride
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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

Posted by bird382

Posted by seaside
But to grant college degrees to legitimize this and those who emerge from the experience as unskilled & lazy as ever is to make a mcokery of American education.

And it's not just on an undergraduate level. I know MANY people with master's degrees and a few with PhDs who should have been weeded out long before earning their degrees.



In theory, yes, it is. I teach grad classes and out of about 22 students/class, maybe 2 are really excellent students. Over half cannot write at all. But I teach business. And it is an ethical dilemma as to whether I should grade on writing skills since it is NOT a writing class. These students try, and many of them understand the business concepts and explain them well enough to be understood, but should i lower the grade just because they don't have an expert grasp of grammar? We spend a lot of time talking about these issues...And in the end, it isn't really my place to grade each essay as though it is an English class, because it isn't. I grade on content so long as I can understand the content, but I am also embarrassed to see the poor writing skills that MBA students are graduating with.

Posted 8/14/08 11:06 AM
 

tourist

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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

I guess it just depends if you view college as a means to an end or education for personal growth. I see it as the latter.

Finding a job/career, wasn't supposed to be automatic after graduation, because I had a piece of paper saying I had earned a degree. (At least that's what I think it said--it is in Latin Chat Icon ) Education & preparing for a career are two different things, so I guess it depends what you are after.

And Beth, the one person I've worked from from AEI was pro NCLB, that's why I thought they were pro testing in general.

Posted 8/14/08 11:10 AM
 

bird382
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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

Posted by nov04libride


In theory, yes, it is. I teach grad classes and out of about 22 students/class, maybe 2 are really excellent students. Over half cannot write at all. But I teach business. And it is an ethical dilemma as to whether I should grade on writing skills since it is NOT a writing class. These students try, and many of them understand the business concepts and explain them well enough to be understood, but should i lower the grade just because they don't have an expert grasp of grammar? We spend a lot of time talking about these issues...And in the end, it isn't really my place to grade each essay as though it is an English class, because it isn't. I grade on content so long as I can understand the content, but I am also embarrassed to see the poor writing skills that MBA students are graduating with.

I should have clarified. I'm not talking about problems with grammar. I understand that an MBA program isn't the place to learn that.

I'm talking about a lack of critical skills in one's chosen field and the inability to think independently.

Posted 8/14/08 11:14 AM
 

seaside
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Re: WSJ: For Most People, College a Waste of Time

Posted by nov04libride

Posted by bird382

Posted by seaside
But to grant college degrees to legitimize this and those who emerge from the experience as unskilled & lazy as ever is to make a mcokery of American education.

And it's not just on an undergraduate level. I know MANY people with master's degrees and a few with PhDs who should have been weeded out long before earning their degrees.



In theory, yes, it is. I teach grad classes and out of about 22 students/class, maybe 2 are really excellent students. Over half cannot write at all. But I teach business. And it is an ethical dilemma as to whether I should grade on writing skills since it is NOT a writing class. These students try, and many of them understand the business concepts and explain them well enough to be understood, but should i lower the grade just because they don't have an expert grasp of grammar? We spend a lot of time talking about these issues...And in the end, it isn't really my place to grade each essay as though it is an English class, because it isn't. I grade on content so long as I can understand the content, but I am also embarrassed to see the poor writing skills that MBA students are graduating with.



I feel your dilemma--I really do. I see why you don't want to grade them as though it's an english/grammar class. To me, though, effective (not perfect, but non-humiliating, effective) communication is part and parcel of doing business for clients and not having them lose total faith in you. Clear communication that bespeaks a competent educated person is inextricably linked to instilling confidence in clients. Without that, how can you be a business person? ...I'd love to see this country do an overhaul of education with zero tolerance for cheating & a refusal to grant a degree to someone who cannot communicate, both in writing and in person, in such a wayas instills professional cnfidence. School should be a privilege,not an entitlement. Many fewer degrees, but worth much more!

Message edited 8/14/2008 12:33:00 PM.

Posted 8/14/08 11:17 AM
 
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