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lucyloo
nope
Member since 1/06 9758 total posts
Name:
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
No.
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Posted 3/24/10 3:23 PM  |
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nrthshgrl
It goes fast. Pay attention.
Member since 7/05 57538 total posts
Name:
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Yes I do.
They already do. My taxes already go to purchase countless products & services from private citizens and corporations.
Am I the only one that's heard of Haliburton? Northrop Grumman? Lockheed?
The US government in the largest employer in the US . Imagine if you counted who they subbed services & product manufacturing out to... my company included.
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| Posted 3/24/10 3:24 PM |
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Pumpkin1
LIF Adult
Member since 12/05 3715 total posts
Name:
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Any constitutional experts on here that are qualified to answer whether the mandate is constitutional or not?
ETA: And being able to sing the Preamble ala School House Rock does not make you qualified.
Message edited 3/24/2010 3:34:44 PM.
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| Posted 3/24/10 3:29 PM |
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MikesWife
Wanting...........
Member since 1/06 6887 total posts
Name:
Karen
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by Pumpkin1
Any constitutional experts on here that are qualified to answer whether the mandate is constitutional or not?
LOL! I'm just offering my opinion. I think I'll let the courts opine. 
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| Posted 3/24/10 3:34 PM |
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leighdvm
My golden boys!
Member since 3/06 4419 total posts
Name:
Michele
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by Pumpkin1
ETA: And being able to sing the Preamble ala School House Rock does not make you qualified.
well, that leaves ME out.....
Message edited 3/24/2010 3:35:53 PM.
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| Posted 3/24/10 3:35 PM |
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Blu-ize
Plan B is Now Plan A
Member since 7/05 32475 total posts
Name:
Susan
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by MikesWife
I'm sorry but i just do not see the comparison of car insurance and forced health insurance.
If I want to own a car, I will have to carry car insurance.
Just because I am living and breathing I am forced to purchase a health plan otherwise face fines, penalties, and possible imprisonment?
I don't see the comparison.
I bet that because having car insurance is the law plenty of folks keep their insurance payments up to date but don't have health insurance because they can't afford the premiums for the crappy coverage they get or just refuse to get the insurance because of the same reasons.
If it wasn't the law to insure your car, would you insure it? Or let the other guy pay for it?
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| Posted 3/24/10 3:36 PM |
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MikesWife
Wanting...........
Member since 1/06 6887 total posts
Name:
Karen
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by Blu-ize
Posted by MikesWife
I'm sorry but i just do not see the comparison of car insurance and forced health insurance.
If I want to own a car, I will have to carry car insurance.
Just because I am living and breathing I am forced to purchase a health plan otherwise face fines, penalties, and possible imprisonment?
I don't see the comparison.
I bet that because having car insurance is the law plenty of folks keep their insurance payments up to date but don't have health insurance because they can't afford the premiums for the crappy coverage they get or just refuse to get the insurance because of the same reasons.
If it wasn't the law to insure your car, would you insure it? Or let the other guy pay for it?
Me personally yes because it is the responsible thing to do. But there are alternatives to car transportation. There is no alternative here - it's pay or be fined, no?
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| Posted 3/24/10 3:38 PM |
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nrthshgrl
It goes fast. Pay attention.
Member since 7/05 57538 total posts
Name:
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by Pumpkin1
Any constitutional experts on here that are qualified to answer whether the mandate is constitutional or not?
ETA: And being able to sing the Preamble ala School House Rock does not make you qualified.
I thought this was an opinion question. We need to be constitutional experts to answer?
If so, I'll go with Section 8
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
eta. I'm not an "expert" just a constitutional amateur 
Message edited 3/24/2010 3:42:17 PM.
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| Posted 3/24/10 3:41 PM |
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klingklang77
kraftwerk!
Member since 7/06 11487 total posts
Name:
Völlig losgelöst
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Yes, for certain things.
I think certain parts of the constitution are outdated.
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| Posted 3/24/10 3:43 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by nrthshgrl
Posted by Pumpkin1
Any constitutional experts on here that are qualified to answer whether the mandate is constitutional or not?
ETA: And being able to sing the Preamble ala School House Rock does not make you qualified.
I thought this was an opinion question. We need to be constitutional experts to answer?
If so, I'll go with Section 8
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
eta. I'm not an "expert" just a constitutional amateur
I'll go with Barb.
If so, I'll go with Section 8 The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States
I took Constitutional Law in college if that qualifies me at all
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| Posted 3/24/10 3:44 PM |
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eddiesmommy
best buds!
Member since 5/09 11524 total posts
Name:
Melissa
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by Pumpkin1
Any constitutional experts on here that are qualified to answer whether the mandate is constitutional or not?
ETA: And being able to sing the Preamble ala School House Rock does not make you qualified.
Its all how you interpret it, I think its beyond any of our means or qualifications, on here, to say for sure one way or another. Its article VI, clause 2 of th Constitution vs. the 10th Amendment. It is unprecedented and will we just have to wait and see. No matter what side you are on, just bc something is viewed by one party as beneficial and another party as a detriment has nothing to do with the legality of it, the constitution and bill of rights are neutral. We must then leave it up to our appointed Supreme Court judges to do what it is that they have been asked to do.
Message edited 3/24/2010 4:29:29 PM.
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| Posted 3/24/10 3:45 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by klingklang77
Yes, for certain things.
I think certain parts of the constitution are outdated.
that's just the thing...it's really the beauty of the document itself.
the constitution is fluid. the writers of it left room for things like this...when the shizit hits the fan almost 250 years after it was written...when the needs of the constituency changed in a way they could never forsee or imagine.
think about it...many doctors were paid with some sock darning or an apple pie for their services when the Constitution was written.
it's up to the courts to interpret what they meant.
but methinks the court will have no choice but to uphold the legislation based on the section Barb posted.
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| Posted 3/24/10 3:47 PM |
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eddiesmommy
best buds!
Member since 5/09 11524 total posts
Name:
Melissa
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by nrthshgrl
Posted by Pumpkin1
Any constitutional experts on here that are qualified to answer whether the mandate is constitutional or not?
ETA: And being able to sing the Preamble ala School House Rock does not make you qualified.
I thought this was an opinion question. We need to be constitutional experts to answer?
If so, I'll go with Section 8
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
eta. I'm not an "expert" just a constitutional amateur
I'll go with Barb.
If so, I'll go with Section 8 The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States
I took Constitutional Law in college if that qualifies me at all
While I support this bill, I do have to say, section 8 IMO does not hold up as a valid defense against the indiv. mandate as the penalty is NOT a tax.
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| Posted 3/24/10 3:48 PM |
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smdl
I love Gary too..on a plate!
Member since 5/06 32461 total posts
Name:
me
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by MrsProfessor
Aren't we mandated to purchase car insurance, if we want to drive legally?
Exactly!!!!!
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| Posted 3/24/10 3:50 PM |
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MikesWife
Wanting...........
Member since 1/06 6887 total posts
Name:
Karen
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by eddiesmommy
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by nrthshgrl
Posted by Pumpkin1
Any constitutional experts on here that are qualified to answer whether the mandate is constitutional or not?
ETA: And being able to sing the Preamble ala School House Rock does not make you qualified.
I thought this was an opinion question. We need to be constitutional experts to answer?
If so, I'll go with Section 8
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
eta. I'm not an "expert" just a constitutional amateur
I'll go with Barb.
If so, I'll go with Section 8 The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States
I took Constitutional Law in college if that qualifies me at all
While I support this bill, I do have to say, section 8 IMO does not hold up as a valid defense against the indiv. mandate as the penalty is NOT a tax.
I had to look up the true definition of Duties, Imposts and Excises and I agree that in my opinion the penatly is not any of the above.
But I'll leave the interpretation and upholding to the Supreme Court who are WAY more qualified than me
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| Posted 3/24/10 3:50 PM |
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smdl
I love Gary too..on a plate!
Member since 5/06 32461 total posts
Name:
me
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by Blu-ize
Posted by MsMBV
Posted by MrsProfessor
Aren't we mandated to purchase car insurance, if we want to drive legally?
You can choose not to drive a car.
ok..I'll play..if you get sick and don't have insurance, don't go to the ER.
That's the whole thing!
People are paying right now for all uninsured who have to get medical care and cannot afford it.
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| Posted 3/24/10 3:52 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
excise works for me!!!
excise: : an internal tax levied on the manufacture, sale, or consumption of a commodity
2 : any of various taxes on privileges often assessed in the form of a license or fee
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| Posted 3/24/10 3:52 PM |
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Blu-ize
Plan B is Now Plan A
Member since 7/05 32475 total posts
Name:
Susan
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by MikesWife
Posted by Blu-ize
Posted by MikesWife
I'm sorry but i just do not see the comparison of car insurance and forced health insurance.
If I want to own a car, I will have to carry car insurance.
Just because I am living and breathing I am forced to purchase a health plan otherwise face fines, penalties, and possible imprisonment?
I don't see the comparison.
I bet that because having car insurance is the law plenty of folks keep their insurance payments up to date but don't have health insurance because they can't afford the premiums for the crappy coverage they get or just refuse to get the insurance because of the same reasons.
If it wasn't the law to insure your car, would you insure it? Or let the other guy pay for it?
Me personally yes because it is the responsible thing to do. But there are alternatives to car transportation. There is no alternative here - it's pay or be fined, no?
But it's the law so everyone has to have it who drives. Most Americans drive. Most would rather drive than take the bus..I'm pretty sure about that.
Most Americans would like to have health insurance. I don't see the big problem here. If there is affordable health insurance that is comprehensive, most people will want it. Most people don't want to go to the ER and sit there for hours waiting to be seen and then have bills sent to their house that they can't pay.
So what if it's required?..the vast majority want to be covered. Just because it's required does that mean it's bad? Is your Liberty being taken away because the gov't will require you have something you want anyway?
I want to drive..so I will have to have insurance. I'm glad for the insurance because if my car is damaged or causes damage to something or someone else, the policy will pay for it.
If I'm sick, I'm glad I have health insurance so I won't go bankrupt paying my medical bills.
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| Posted 3/24/10 3:54 PM |
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eddiesmommy
best buds!
Member since 5/09 11524 total posts
Name:
Melissa
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by Ophelia
excise works for me!!!
excise: : an internal tax levied on the manufacture, sale, or consumption of a commodity
2 : any of various taxes on privileges often assessed in the form of a license or fee
just asking though, I thought a "tax" was a fee charged by the government for a service, commodity, or on income, not on an actual individual person for failing to enroll in a government program? I could be wrong, and maybe I am.
Message edited 3/24/2010 3:58:14 PM.
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| Posted 3/24/10 3:57 PM |
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Pumpkin1
LIF Adult
Member since 12/05 3715 total posts
Name:
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Now that's what I like to see: quotes to back up your position! Bravo, now we have a good debate going.
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| Posted 3/24/10 4:04 PM |
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Woodsy
LIF Infant
Member since 6/05 241 total posts
Name:
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by MikesWife
Posted by Pumpkin1
Any constitutional experts on here that are qualified to answer whether the mandate is constitutional or not?
LOL! I'm just offering my opinion. I think I'll let the courts opine.
I don't consider myself a "constitutional expert", though I did get an A+ in Con Law in law school, was editor of the ConLaw Journal and have served as an adjunct professor of ConLaw at a local college.
That being said, I don't believe that the law is constitutional. While I have neither the time nor the inclination to argue over my reasoning, attached is the lawsuit that was recently filed and discusses the unconstitutional aspects of this bill and how it violates States' rights.
http://www.oag.state.tx.us/newspubs/releases/2010/032310healthcarelawsuit.
In any event, I think this case will get fast tracked to the US Supreme Court and Justice Kennedy will be the deciding vote.
As an aside, I practice employment law and represent small, medium and large businesses. I have received several phone calls over the last week from business owners who are very concerned about what this legislation is going to do their business...many of whom are having enough problems in this economy already. Simply put, this legislation is a job killer...unless of course, you are an IRS agent. Nice work, Obummer!!!
One last point: The automobile insurance analogy frequently used by supporters of this monstrosity is inapposite to this debate. The Constitution reserves LIMITED powers to the federal government and all remaining powers are delegated to states. Automobile insurance mandates are creatures of state law--not federal. Also, you can avoid such a mandate by not owning a car. Finally, these laws are really to protect others who might be harmed by your operation of the vehicle.
Just my two cents. Back to work!
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| Posted 3/24/10 4:04 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by eddiesmommy
Posted by Ophelia
excise works for me!!!
excise: : an internal tax levied on the manufacture, sale, or consumption of a commodity
2 : any of various taxes on privileges often assessed in the form of a license or fee
just asking though, I thought a "tax" was a fee charged by the government for a service, commodity, or on income, not on an actual individual person for failing to enroll in a government program? I could be wrong, and maybe I am.
this is where the fluidity of the constitution would come into play. when the document was written, there was no such thing as a govt program so while our "idea" of what a tax or excise is may not mesh, it doesn't mean in reality, it shouldn't fall under the same umbrella, kwim?
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| Posted 3/24/10 4:05 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by Woodsy
Nice work, Obummer!!!
Posted by Woodsy
That being said, I don't believe that the law is constitutional.
you don't say
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| Posted 3/24/10 4:08 PM |
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eddiesmommy
best buds!
Member since 5/09 11524 total posts
Name:
Melissa
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by eddiesmommy
Posted by Ophelia
excise works for me!!!
excise: : an internal tax levied on the manufacture, sale, or consumption of a commodity
2 : any of various taxes on privileges often assessed in the form of a license or fee
just asking though, I thought a "tax" was a fee charged by the government for a service, commodity, or on income, not on an actual individual person for failing to enroll in a government program? I could be wrong, and maybe I am.
this is where the fluidity of the constitution would come into play. when the document was written, there was no such thing as a govt program so while our "idea" of what a tax or excise is may not mesh, it doesn't mean in reality, it shouldn't fall under the same umbrella, kwim?
no, that makes sense. I just think the whole thing is so unprecedented that its really beyond most of us to determine from a strict legal standpoint what is constitutional and what is not.
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| Posted 3/24/10 4:09 PM |
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stickydust
Now a mommy of 2!!!
Member since 4/06 3164 total posts
Name:
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Re: Spinoff of sorts: Do you think it is within the constitutional rights of the government to mandate citizens to purchase a product or service from another private citizen and or corporation?
I do notpractice constitutional law but I did take several courses in law school and it is by far my favorite aspect of the law.
Firstly, I do not believe that the consitution is an outmoded document at all. I think it provides an excellent framework for government and really zeroed on on those components that would make a government successful.
As to whether it will be declared unconstitutional or not - only the Justices know the answer as there is so much interpretation that no one legal scholar can definitively say one way or another. I mean look at "Miranda" - there is really no context for that in the constitution but we still foloow it.
That said an argument can definately be made as to it being unconstitutional just as the converse argument can be made. The framers were very clear with respect to enumerated powers and it being a limiting factor for the Federal government. In the past, the commerce clause has been used as a way to get around many things - the question will be whether the commerce clause will be sufficient in thsi context.
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| Posted 3/24/10 4:37 PM |
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