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jilliibabii
Mrs. O'Connor
Member since 6/10 12821 total posts
Name:
Jillian
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Work Situation Question
I'm just curious what your opinions in this situation are.
I'm a receptionist. My manager is the manager of the Operations Dept. which includes maintenance, conference services, the mailroom, and reception since we all work closely with each other. There is also a supervisor for the Operations Dept. but we generally don't report to him, only our manager. There are 5 receptionists- one has been her 20+ years, another 10+ years, I've been here 7 years, and the other 2 have been here 3 years. The receptionist that has been here 20+ years (We'll call her R) isn't very tech savvy. She shies away from all new technology and really digs her heels in everytime we have to learn a new system or program or whatever. For the past 20+ years, my company has been accommodating her. She's often been able to get out of the training and does the basics- like occupies a desk, directs guests, and answers the phone- but she does that VERY well. I blame them for letting it get to this point. We were given a small project recently (nothing serious, printing labels and assembling invites to the holiday party) and she effed it up. She missed a whole bunch of people, they were upset, and the powers that be are looking to fire her. I don't know why they don't just DO it, because they've been picking on her for months- for anything and everything- she doesn't answer the phones fast enough, she clocks in too late, then she clocks in too early, I see it and I think it's wrong what they are doing to her. She's a very soft spoken, gentle person, and I can tell she takes these things very personally.
So, in response to the project that she messed up, my manager began speaking to the receptionist who has been here 10+ years (We'll call her T) about R's work and how she needs training and how we're going to have to cover her desk next week while she gets more training. Our manager asked T to tell R about the training and how she needs to step up her game. R came to me last night very upset because she felt that our manager should've came to her directly instead of discussing her work performance with her peer/co-worker. T is NOT a manager, supervisor, senior receptionist, or anything of the like. She is equal to all the other receptionists in every way. My question is do you think it was okay for our manager to speak to T about R's work performance and then to take it a step further and ask T to address the issue with R? Is this inappropriate or unprofessional? Could our manager potentially get in trouble if R were to go to HR about this? I just feel bad for the woman and I don't know what to tell her. Of course, I won't say anything as it's not my place, but I tried to urge her to speak to our manager or to HR about it, but she refused. What do you think she should do? As a side note, our manager isn't exactly approachable. I mean she's nice enough, when she wants to be/has to be, but ya never really know how she's going to be when you approach her.
If you've made it through this novel, I applaud you! LOL! I just feel so bad for my co-worker, she's been dealing with this for a long time. The powers that be just seem to have it out for her!
Message edited 1/6/2012 9:44:33 AM.
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Posted 1/6/12 9:43 AM  |
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Long Island Weddings
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peanutbutter2
Carpe diem!
Member since 11/10 5287 total posts
Name:
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Re: Work Situation Question
I don't know what is legally/technically "right," but yes, I think the manager should've been the one to approach her. Something doesn't sit right with me about a manager talking to T and then having T deal with it.
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| Posted 1/6/12 9:55 AM |
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BklynBabe12
LIF Adolescent
Member since 1/12 561 total posts
Name:
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Re: Work Situation Question
I think that was VERY unprofessional of the manager to discuss R's performance with T and even to ask that T say something to R. This would be an HR question and should be brought up to them for the inconsistencies of this matter. Furthermore, it seems that they are trying to gather enough reason to fire R for every little thing done wrong. While, I understand your dilemna that R is not tech savvy, was that written in her job proposal to be tech savvy? 20 years ago we did not have the technology that we do now, and I find it unfair for R to gain the knowledge of the technologies without proper adequate training. If this was an issue, there should have been a mandated training for all staff members to be familiar with new programs.
I would suggest that R document EVERYTHING. From when she signs in, when she signs out. When she was approached by T. When she was informed of the training. If the training is just for her or for everyone. Anything that is being written up on her, then she needs to document this. I would then see if this becomes a problem, and bring it to HR with the documentation.
I hope this helps.
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| Posted 1/6/12 10:00 AM |
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jilliibabii
Mrs. O'Connor
Member since 6/10 12821 total posts
Name:
Jillian
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Re: Work Situation Question
Posted by BklynBabe12
I think that was VERY unprofessional of the manager to discuss R's performance with T and even to ask that T say something to R. This would be an HR question and should be brought up to them for the inconsistencies of this matter. Furthermore, it seems that they are trying to gather enough reason to fire R for every little thing done wrong. While, I understand your dilemna that R is not tech savvy, was that written in her job proposal to be tech savvy? 20 years ago we did not have the technology that we do now, and I find it unfair for R to gain the knowledge of the technologies without proper adequate training. If this was an issue, there should have been a mandated training for all staff members to be familiar with new programs.
I would suggest that R document EVERYTHING. From when she signs in, when she signs out. When she was approached by T. When she was informed of the training. If the training is just for her or for everyone. Anything that is being written up on her, then she needs to document this. I would then see if this becomes a problem, and bring it to HR with the documentation.
I hope this helps.
This is extremely helpful. It's been going on for months and they are absolutely singling her out. I'd have to look at my job proposal but I don't think mine even said anything about technology in there so I can't imagine that hers did either. And that's exactly my point, they let her get to this point. They let her do things her own way because they were too lazy to be bothered to deal with her and now people are taking notice and they are pressed to either get her up to speed or fire her.
She is the only one who has been asked to attend training, though to be honest, NOBODY knew how to do the project. I showed each and every single one of them.
I'm going to speak to her again about this tonight and try to get her to start taking note of when all of this is happening because it's not right what they are doing to her and it's incredibly unprofessional. This is just more proof that my manager is NOT management material. I just hope she listens, she's the kind to not rock the boat so when she came to me last night in tears, I knew this was REALLY getting to her. Thanks again for your advice! 
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| Posted 1/6/12 10:06 AM |
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Re: Work Situation Question
Some managers just $uck and are not good at confrontation.
I've seen it before.
Also, it takes awhile to fire people sometimes. Especially in situations like this, where an employer often fears being sued for discrimination. They are probably trying to create a paper-trail that all efforts were made to accomodate her in case she F's up again.
I went through this a few years ago with an older woman I supervised who did the same things----refused to learn the computer, tried to brush off anything computer-related onto me, then pulled the race card with HR that I was picking on her.
Only major difference between me and this manager was I did not involve my employees I was in charge of in the matter at all.
That is completely out of line.
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| Posted 1/6/12 10:07 AM |
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cjik
Welcome 2010!
Member since 2/06 8879 total posts
Name:
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Re: Work Situation Question
Very inappropriate to discuss the performance of a coworker with someone who is not another manager, HR, or dept. supervisor.
My boss does this sometimes, I actually told her I didn't think I should hear how so and so was doing, since we are coworkers--I am not in charge of her or her workflow. It's demeaning for a manager to do this.
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| Posted 1/6/12 10:09 AM |
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Re: Work Situation Question
I forgot to add that my employer has had to since re-vamp many job descriptions to meet the standards of changing technology today.
I also know that for many positions at my agency, potential employees are now given writing tests.
This is a BIG problem we've run into with a few current employees and it's hard to get rid of someone who has been there for that long, who can't write.
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| Posted 1/6/12 10:13 AM |
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jilliibabii
Mrs. O'Connor
Member since 6/10 12821 total posts
Name:
Jillian
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Re: Work Situation Question
Posted by mzsocialworker1
Some managers just $uck and are not good at confrontation.
I've seen it before.
Also, it takes awhile to fire people sometimes. Especially in situations like this, where an employer often fears being sued for discrimination. They are probably trying to create a paper-trail that all efforts were made to accomodate her in case she F's up again.
I went through this a few years ago with an older woman I supervised who did the same things----refused to learn the computer, tried to brush off anything computer-related onto me, then pulled the race card with HR that I was picking on her.
Only major difference between me and this manager was I did not involve my employees I was in charge of in the matter at all.
That is completely out of line.
This is what I assumed- they pretty much have already decided to fire her, they are just looking for the reasons since she's been there so long.
To be honest, I don't think she knows how DIRE the situation is for her. She says she is willing to learn, but I think she'd try harder if she was confronted by our manager who could lay it all out on the table whereas T feels the need to tiptoe around since she in uncomfortable saying it in the first place.
And they say they want to train her, but then the support depts. are so short handed from all the lay-offs in the past two years and nobody being hired that we never really have TIME to actually sit down and do the training and it's rushed through. I really think this woman needs a couple days of intensive training and training in how to multitask.
And then I have another question, do you think T should say something the next time our manager approaches her to discuss a co-worker or to deliver news? This is not even nearly the first time this has happened, they've even done it to me before so I know how much it can sting.
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| Posted 1/6/12 10:16 AM |
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jilliibabii
Mrs. O'Connor
Member since 6/10 12821 total posts
Name:
Jillian
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Re: Work Situation Question
Posted by mzsocialworker1
I forgot to add that my employer has had to since re-vamp many job descriptions to meet the standards of changing technology today.
I also know that for many positions at my agency, potential employees are now given writing tests.
This is a BIG problem we've run into with a few current employees and it's hard to get rid of someone who has been there for that long, who can't write.
We've done that recently at our firm, but only for the secretaries. And the test was so arbitrary that it was a joke- half the people who failed are still here and some who passed are gone.  I mean, this place just drives me bonkers. I mean I know there's favoritism everywhere you go, but it's rampant here. The same rules do not apply across the board and it kills me to see it.
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| Posted 1/6/12 10:17 AM |
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Blu-ize
Plan B is Now Plan A
Member since 7/05 32475 total posts
Name:
Susan
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Re: Work Situation Question
The fact they are retraining her is good.
The manager sucks and should be fired because no manager worth their job would have a peer have that discussion with her.
Bad choice and I'm guessing that this manager is the one who is giving her the most flack.
I feel really badly about this for her. It's just wrong.
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| Posted 1/6/12 10:24 AM |
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-juliet-
LIF Zygote
Member since 12/11 40 total posts
Name:
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Re: Work Situation Question
Posted by BklynBabe12
I think that was VERY unprofessional of the manager to discuss R's performance with T and even to ask that T say something to R. This would be an HR question and should be brought up to them for the inconsistencies of this matter. Furthermore, it seems that they are trying to gather enough reason to fire R for every little thing done wrong. While, I understand your dilemna that R is not tech savvy, was that written in her job proposal to be tech savvy? 20 years ago we did not have the technology that we do now, and I find it unfair for R to gain the knowledge of the technologies without proper adequate training. If this was an issue, there should have been a mandated training for all staff members to be familiar with new programs.
I would suggest that R document EVERYTHING. From when she signs in, when she signs out. When she was approached by T. When she was informed of the training. If the training is just for her or for everyone. Anything that is being written up on her, then she needs to document this. I would then see if this becomes a problem, and bring it to HR with the documentation.
I hope this helps.
ITA word for word!
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| Posted 1/6/12 10:27 AM |
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jilliibabii
Mrs. O'Connor
Member since 6/10 12821 total posts
Name:
Jillian
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Re: Work Situation Question
Posted by Blu-ize
The fact they are retraining her is good.
The manager sucks and should be fired because no manager worth their job would have a peer have that discussion with her.
Bad choice and I'm guessing that this manager is the one who is giving her the most flack.
I feel really badly about this for her. It's just wrong.
I know! I feel horribly for her. And she's honestly one of the sweetest, gentlest, most soft spoken people I've ever met so it kills me that they are doing this to her! 
Thank you all for your input! All I can do is keep urging her to keep record or everything and to say something to HR about it! Thanks again!
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| Posted 1/6/12 10:46 AM |
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DrMeg
Back home!
Member since 5/08 1858 total posts
Name:
Meg
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Re: Work Situation Question
I am in a similar sitation, where I was told something in relation to the future of my job from a peer. I haven't yet had the chance, but when I do, I am going to let my supervisor know that it was extremely inappropriate for me to find out that way. It's almos tlike hearing things through the grapevine. She should let HR know that this is how things are being handled.
Message edited 1/6/2012 10:58:41 AM.
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| Posted 1/6/12 10:58 AM |
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jilliibabii
Mrs. O'Connor
Member since 6/10 12821 total posts
Name:
Jillian
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Re: Work Situation Question
Posted by DrMeg
I am in a similar sitation, where I was told something in relation to the future of my job from a peer. I haven't yet had the chance, but when I do, I am going to let my supervisor know that it was extremely inappropriate for me to find out that way. It's almos tlike hearing things through the grapevine. She should let HR know that this is how things are being handled.
Ugh! I don't know how a manager could think this is appropriate. Sorry you're going through this, too. I hope you get it resolved, soon!
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| Posted 1/6/12 10:59 AM |
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CSK
LIF Adolescent
Member since 9/11 892 total posts
Name:
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Re: Work Situation Question
She can keep records etc... I'm not sure how much it helps really, it sounds like managment and HR are taking the same notes. you can try and make an HR case out of it, but realistically, besides 1 little misstep as to how something was communicated, what are they doing out of bounds?
your post seems to be showing both sides of the issue.
she's nice, she's good at certain parts of her job, but she has resisted for 20 years to be involved with any part of the technology in the office, to the point of skipping training digging in her heels.
it was inappropriate for the manager to ask the fellow employee to let her know she wsa going to training. It wasn't inappropriate for the manager to mention to the employee that she is going to training and they need to cover for her for a few days, thats just a fact.
they may be looking for a reason to get rid of her b/c she isn't performing the whole job function they're looking for her to perform and they need to document that. this isn't wrong, it just sucks if you're her. realistically, if they put her shortcomings in her evaluations for the past however many years, this wouldn't be an isssue.
I get that she is the sweetest nicest person there..... but is she doing her full job? or is she having you or someone else cover for her lack of skills in certian areas?
On the other hand, generally management doesn't try and train people that they aren't at least givng a shot for them to correct their situation. If they were set on firing her, they probably would just document it up over the next 6 months. So if she goes to the training, applies herelf, she probably has a good shot of turning things around.
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| Posted 1/6/12 12:03 PM |
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JenniferEver
The Disney Lady
Member since 5/05 18163 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: Work Situation Question
Oh boy. A lot going on there, J.
I think it was completely inappropriate for the manager to talk about R's work performance to T. The manager needs to address the situation DIRECTLY with R. I think R needs to speak with HR about it. I think the manager had to tell T R was going into to training because she'd have to help cover, but any further discussion is wrong, and using T as a tool is passive aggressive and a big no no.
R should definitely document everything. it sounds like they have it in for her.
As for why they don't just fire her, in big companies it can take FOREVER to fire someone unless it's gross insubordination. I know at my job I manage part timers. There is such a long process because I have to document what they're doing several times, give warnings, provide training, provide a timeframe to improve. A firing can never come as a surprise.
They really have to give her a chance to improve and they have to provide training. What the manager is doing VERY wrong here is that she's not addressing these issues directly with R, and not necessarily discussing everything that she may be doing regarding R through HR with R.
R does need to step up her game. Some companies try to be loyal to long time employees, which I really appreciate, but she needs to change with the times. At my company we have had EXTREME changes over the past 3 years. From a brick and mortal storekeeper model to everything being online and everyone working from home, huge technology changes, etc etc. There's no room at all to stay behind the times. They have let her stay behind for too long, but they need to give her feedback and training to get up to speed. If she's been getting by without keeping up for so long, that's really the manager's fault for not having the tough "you need to step up" conversation sooner.
I really hope R can adapt and keep her job. When we did our transitions I saw a lot of 20 year+ employees get let go, and it broke my heart.
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| Posted 1/6/12 12:18 PM |
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Bearcat
Love my little girls!!! <3
Member since 6/10 10818 total posts
Name:
E
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Re: Work Situation Question
completely inappropriate.
and my guess is that they don't just fire her because some sharky lawyer will take on the age discrimination case. not me though... i'm too scared of you manhattan bigwigs!
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| Posted 1/6/12 12:22 PM |
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jilliibabii
Mrs. O'Connor
Member since 6/10 12821 total posts
Name:
Jillian
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Re: Work Situation Question
Posted by CSK
She can keep records etc... I'm not sure how much it helps really, it sounds like managment and HR are taking the same notes. you can try and make an HR case out of it, but realistically, besides 1 little misstep as to how something was communicated, what are they doing out of bounds?
your post seems to be showing both sides of the issue.
she's nice, she's good at certain parts of her job, but she has resisted for 20 years to be involved with any part of the technology in the office, to the point of skipping training digging in her heels.
it was inappropriate for the manager to ask the fellow employee to let her know she wsa going to training. It wasn't inappropriate for the manager to mention to the employee that she is going to training and they need to cover for her for a few days, thats just a fact.
they may be looking for a reason to get rid of her b/c she isn't performing the whole job function they're looking for her to perform and they need to document that. this isn't wrong, it just sucks if you're her. realistically, if they put her shortcomings in her evaluations for the past however many years, this wouldn't be an isssue.
I get that she is the sweetest nicest person there..... but is she doing her full job? or is she having you or someone else cover for her lack of skills in certian areas?
On the other hand, generally management doesn't try and train people that they aren't at least givng a shot for them to correct their situation. If they were set on firing her, they probably would just document it up over the next 6 months. So if she goes to the training, applies herelf, she probably has a good shot of turning things around.
I definitely agree that she needs to step up her game. The thing is no one really covers for her, it's just a known thing. "OH you need this done, don't go to 41, R can't do that, go to T or J." We are all receptionists, but we each do different thigns within our dept.- so just because R isn't doing the same things I'm doing, doesn't mean she's not working. But that's besides the point. If they want to try and train her and she doesn't get up to speed and they fire her, I understand that even if I'd be sad to see her go. But they are doing it in such an underhanded way and she admitted that's how she felt- almost like T and our manager were gossipping about her behind her back. And she doesn't deserve that, no matter what. And that's what bothers me, especially because my manager has done it to me but only ONCE. I was VERY upset when it happened though and I felt very similar to how R is feeling.
I'm 90% sure no communication has been made with HR regarding R's training. It seems like my manager and T are the only two in on it.
And I understand why T needed to be notified about R's training to cover the desk, but she should've been notified AFTER R was and I feel like T shouldn't be the one giving out orders to her fellow receptionists.
I've just had a lot of issues with my manager and the more I see of her, the less I like. It's disheartening. My old manager was let go VERY suddenly and I really liked her a lot. She was a great manager, got along great with everyone in our dept., we were great friends- she came to my wedding! This lady is a whooooooole different ball game!
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| Posted 1/6/12 12:40 PM |
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jilliibabii
Mrs. O'Connor
Member since 6/10 12821 total posts
Name:
Jillian
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Re: Work Situation Question
Posted by Bearcat
completely inappropriate.
and my guess is that they don't just fire her because some sharky lawyer will take on the age discrimination case. not me though... i'm too scared of you manhattan bigwigs!
 They scare me a little, too!
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| Posted 1/6/12 12:40 PM |
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EandF
LIF Adult
Member since 11/11 1674 total posts
Name:
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Re: Work Situation Question
I completely agree with pps that this is completely inappropriate and that it's a good idea for your co-worker to document everything.
I've been in some toxic work environments and know how difficult it is. I also tend to personalize and internalize and definitely did not leave work issues at work. The favoritism is awful and the fear of a supervisor discussing you with co-workers all too real. I once told my supervisor about a personal, family situation in the event I would have to take time off from work. I literally told him to not share the information with my co-workers b/c it was personal and no one's business.
J - admirable that you want to help a co-worker but be careful and definitely CYA!
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| Posted 1/6/12 1:09 PM |
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jilliibabii
Mrs. O'Connor
Member since 6/10 12821 total posts
Name:
Jillian
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Re: Work Situation Question
Posted by EandF
I completely agree with pps that this is completely inappropriate and that it's a good idea for your co-worker to document everything.
I've been in some toxic work environments and know how difficult it is. I also tend to personalize and internalize and definitely did not leave work issues at work. The favoritism is awful and the fear of a supervisor discussing you with co-workers all too real. I once told my supervisor about a personal, family situation in the event I would have to take time off from work. I literally told him to not share the information with my co-workers b/c it was personal and no one's business.
J - admirable that you want to help a co-worker but be careful and definitely CYA!
Thanks for replying and for the concern! I definitely won't say or do anything myself, even if I wanted, since it's not my place. And I know that could potentially hinder her case more than help it. I just wanted to get some opinions. I feel like it's very wrong, but since I'm IN the situation I wanted to make sure I wasn't being biased. Thanks again!
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| Posted 1/6/12 1:13 PM |
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DRMom
Two in Blue
Member since 5/05 20223 total posts
Name:
Melissa
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Re: Work Situation Question
I think it is extremely unprofessional. I also think that she should a/ start looking for another position and b. address the manager and say so I've heard from other non-management emplyees there is some dissatisfaction with the way I am performing my duties. Considering my long tenure here, I am absolutely willing to train or do what I need to to get up to speed on the new requirements. is there a time or day that works best for this? Thanks! Actually i would put that in an e-mail and BCC her personal e-mail.
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| Posted 1/6/12 1:35 PM |
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jilliibabii
Mrs. O'Connor
Member since 6/10 12821 total posts
Name:
Jillian
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Re: Work Situation Question
Posted by DRMom
I think it is extremely unprofessional. I also think that she should a/ start looking for another position and b. address the manager and say so I've heard from other non-management emplyees there is some dissatisfaction with the way I am performing my duties. Considering my long tenure here, I am absolutely willing to train or do what I need to to get up to speed on the new requirements. is there a time or day that works best for this? Thanks! Actually i would put that in an e-mail and BCC her personal e-mail.
Oooh!!! That's really good! I'm going to share this with her! Thanks!
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| Posted 1/6/12 3:09 PM |
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nrthshgrl
It goes fast. Pay attention.
Member since 7/05 57538 total posts
Name:
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Re: Work Situation Question
This is exactly how I feel.
Posted by CSK
She can keep records etc... I'm not sure how much it helps really, it sounds like managment and HR are taking the same notes. you can try and make an HR case out of it, but realistically, besides 1 little misstep as to how something was communicated, what are they doing out of bounds?
your post seems to be showing both sides of the issue.
she's nice, she's good at certain parts of her job, but she has resisted for 20 years to be involved with any part of the technology in the office, to the point of skipping training digging in her heels.
it was inappropriate for the manager to ask the fellow employee to let her know she wsa going to training. It wasn't inappropriate for the manager to mention to the employee that she is going to training and they need to cover for her for a few days, thats just a fact.
they may be looking for a reason to get rid of her b/c she isn't performing the whole job function they're looking for her to perform and they need to document that. this isn't wrong, it just sucks if you're her. realistically, if they put her shortcomings in her evaluations for the past however many years, this wouldn't be an isssue.
I get that she is the sweetest nicest person there..... but is she doing her full job? or is she having you or someone else cover for her lack of skills in certian areas?
On the other hand, generally management doesn't try and train people that they aren't at least givng a shot for them to correct their situation. If they were set on firing her, they probably would just document it up over the next 6 months. So if she goes to the training, applies herelf, she probably has a good shot of turning things around.
I'm not sure what advice you're looking for. If I were on the 20 year receptionist side, I'd tell her to document everything AND go to HR. She needs to document that she went to HR with her concern that she was being managed out of the company. Using the word "hostile" or that she feels "discriminated" against regarding her clocking out/in is the key phrase I'd use if it were me. That puts HR on notice that they need to look into her complaints. She should follow up with an email (blind cc: her home email address) asking what they think she should do regarding the situation (briefly describe the situation).
On the flip side, if you are resistant to technology & training, you are going to have a target on your back. The company has the right to change the hours, the job descriptions, etc. While unprofessional & inadvisable, the manager can also tell a co-worker to deliver news. Maybe he thought it would soften the blow to her; maybe he was hoping she'd step up her game.
Outside of being the model employee, improving her computer skills, etc. the only thing she could hope for is that they offer her a good package on the way out. The documentation will help the EEOC claim & any attorney she gets.
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| Posted 1/6/12 3:50 PM |
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jilliibabii
Mrs. O'Connor
Member since 6/10 12821 total posts
Name:
Jillian
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Re: Work Situation Question
The reason I posted this was because I don't think the way she was approached was appropriate. I was wondering if, in the event she did go to HR about it, would it be a reasonable complaint. I feel like it is reasonable, especially since the same tactic has been used against me and I was upset by it- so I know how it feels. I'm not looking to try to save her job, only she can do that, but I'm trying to offer her some advice as to how to approach a situation that has upset her. That's all- nothing more, nothing less. I appreciate your input! Thanks again!
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| Posted 1/6/12 3:54 PM |
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