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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: Limo crash trial
the outcome of a lawsuit can impact a law civily, but criminally....
that is why an agrieved party can seek recourse on the civil side of our judicial system.
will suing the pants off of this person make the family feel better, possibly. but it's just b/c they want him to hurt...to feel as empty and bereft as they do. it's revenge everyone is talking about here...pure desire for revenge..but that is not how our system works.
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Posted 9/12/06 6:39 PM  |
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Redhead
You Live, You Learn
Member since 5/05 31871 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: Limo crash trial
Posted by suvenR
Posted by Redhead
sorry i just am not getting your comparisons at all
In one arena, people are judged by the OUTCOME of their actions. In this arena (drunk drivers killing people), they are judged on what their INTENT was.
sue...i guess i am looking at the laws
i am looking at the definiton of manslaughter
Vehicular manslaughter...and that is what he did...TO A TEE. WORD FOR WORD
why is it necessary to call it murder
because it has a 25 year sentence..?
well then lets LOBBY for the sentencing of VMA to change
there is NO NEED for the WORDING TO CHANGE
i mean come on.....
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| Posted 9/12/06 6:40 PM |
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Beth
The Key to your new home....
Member since 2/06 24849 total posts
Name:
Beth
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Re: Limo crash trial
I found this in an article:
If convicted of murder, Heidgen could be sentenced to 25 years to life in prison. Jurors also can opt to convict on second-degree manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide, which carry lesser sentences.
It would be irresponsible not to include the lesser charges. I'm pretty sure he'll be convicted of something, but probably not murder.
ok- I feel better now - he will most likely be convicted of the lesser charge- I wasn't sure that they included it- but I am glad they did
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| Posted 9/12/06 6:40 PM |
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suvenR
designer mutt
Member since 5/05 4239 total posts
Name:
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Re: Limo crash trial
Posted by Redhead
there is NO NEED for the WORDING TO CHANGE
i mean come on.....
IMO, this is about MUCH MORE than words.
INTENT and OUTCOME.
Right now, it's okay to kill people as long as you were just irresponsible and stupid.
I think we should be held responsible for the damage that we cause as a result of our irresponsible actions.
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| Posted 9/12/06 6:42 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: Limo crash trial
Posted by MrsERod
Posted by jf1975
have any of you ever read Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment.
it's a fascinating look at crime, intent, and punishment (external as well as internal)
to kill someone...to take a life, it's haunting. whether he spends 15 years or 25 years in jail or life in jail, the memory and the realization of what he's done will never leave him. not saying that we as a society should be fine with his self-flagellation, but it's just something to think about. He will pay for this crime for the rest of his life, regardless of where he spends it.
this is by no means intended to be directed AT you, or to offend you at all...
but....
F*** that - so he's "haunted" for the rest of his life. boo hoo hoo. he should have thought about that before he murdered 2 innocent people. at least he'll have a LIFE to live.
no worries, I understand what you are saying...but my point is really this
people want him to get the max b/c they want him to PAY for what he did. regardless he is going to have his life (whether he spends most of it in jail or not) unless he is given the death penalty...which is NOT going to happen.
we want to see him suffer b/c we hurt for what he did...I am just putting it out there...there are worse things than jail. MUCH worse.
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| Posted 9/12/06 6:43 PM |
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suvenR
designer mutt
Member since 5/05 4239 total posts
Name:
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Re: Limo crash trial
Posted by Beth1210
ok- I feel better now - he will most likely be convicted of the lesser charge- I wasn't sure that they included it- but I am glad they did
you feel better because he'll most likely be convicted of the lesser charge? 
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| Posted 9/12/06 6:43 PM |
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MrsS2005
Mom of 3
Member since 11/05 13118 total posts
Name:
B
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Re: Limo crash trial
Posted by suvenR
Posted by Redhead
there is NO NEED for the WORDING TO CHANGE
i mean come on.....
IMO, this is about MUCH MORE than words.
INTENT and OUTCOME.
Right now, it's okay to kill people as long as you were just irresponsible and stupid.
I think we should be held responsible for the damage that we cause as a result of our irresponsible actions.
It's not ok to kill someone. It's not like this guy will just walk away free. He'll probably just be convicted of a lesser crime.
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| Posted 9/12/06 6:43 PM |
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suvenR
designer mutt
Member since 5/05 4239 total posts
Name:
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Re: Limo crash trial
Posted by MrsS2005
It's not ok to kill someone. It's not like this guy will just walk away free. He'll probably just be convicted of a lesser crime.
this is true. At least there will be some punishment. IMO, not enough, but at least some
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| Posted 9/12/06 6:44 PM |
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Redhead
You Live, You Learn
Member since 5/05 31871 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: Limo crash trial
Posted by suvenR
Posted by Redhead
there is NO NEED for the WORDING TO CHANGE
i mean come on.....
IMO, this is about MUCH MORE than words.
INTENT and OUTCOME.
Right now, it's okay to kill people as long as you were just irresponsible and stupid.
I think we should be held responsible for the damage that we cause as a result of our irresponsible actions.
why do you care what it is called sue?
and right now...it isn't ok to kill anyone...regardless...
you are arguing over having the name murder...and i think that is silly
as long as the end result is JAIL
and if it was comparable to a murder punishment..
who cares...
then you are fighting for the word
you are arguing from your heart...not your head
and although i understand
and i think that is fruitless and an utter waste of time and energy
Message edited 9/12/2006 6:47:59 PM.
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| Posted 9/12/06 6:45 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: Limo crash trial
Posted by suvenR
Posted by Redhead
there is NO NEED for the WORDING TO CHANGE
i mean come on.....
IMO, this is about MUCH MORE than words.
INTENT and OUTCOME.
Right now, it's okay to kill people as long as you were just irresponsible and stupid.
I think we should be held responsible for the damage that we cause as a result of our irresponsible actions.
the law doesn't say it's ok to kill someone. the law says "you did something that was reckless and cause the death of an innocent party. while you did not INTEND to cause their death, your actions are so irresponsible and are NOT excusable...therefore, you will be imprisoned for X amount of time."
there is a punishment...he will get one. perhaps the lobby should be for DRUNK drivers convicted of vehicular manslaughter to have STIFFER sentences...have the drunken state be a mitigating factor to STIFFEN, not LESSEN the crime.
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| Posted 9/12/06 6:46 PM |
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MrsS2005
Mom of 3
Member since 11/05 13118 total posts
Name:
B
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Re: Limo crash trial
Intent is extremely important. People die at the hands of others all the time. If we only looked at the outcome, someone who accidentally killed someone would be treated the same as someone who planned out a cold blooded killing. Although people died in both situations, they're not the same and shouldn't be compared in terms of punishment.
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| Posted 9/12/06 6:46 PM |
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Beth
The Key to your new home....
Member since 2/06 24849 total posts
Name:
Beth
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Re: Limo crash trial
Posted by suvenR
Posted by Beth1210
ok- I feel better now - he will most likely be convicted of the lesser charge- I wasn't sure that they included it- but I am glad they did
you feel better because he'll most likely be convicted of the lesser charge?
you are twisting my words- and part of the posting was that me and few other people were concerned about him GETTING OFF- b/c the lesser charge was not included-
if the jury did not feel the DA meet the requirments for murder and the manslaughter was not an option- then he would be found not guilty
Message edited 9/12/2006 6:48:28 PM.
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| Posted 9/12/06 6:47 PM |
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Redhead
You Live, You Learn
Member since 5/05 31871 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: Limo crash trial
Posted by Beth1210
Posted by suvenR
Posted by Beth1210
ok- I feel better now - he will most likely be convicted of the lesser charge- I wasn't sure that they included it- but I am glad they did
you feel better because he'll most likely be convicted of the lesser charge?
you are twisting my words- and part of the posting was that me and few other people were concerned about him GETTING OFF- b/c the lesser charge was not included-
if the jury did not feel the DA meet the requirments for murder and the manslaughter was not an option- then he would be found not guilty
exactly...
and yes i do think he should be convicted of the crime he committed
and that is VMS
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| Posted 9/12/06 6:49 PM |
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MrsS2005
Mom of 3
Member since 11/05 13118 total posts
Name:
B
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Re: Limo crash trial
Posted by jf1975
Posted by suvenR
Posted by Redhead
there is NO NEED for the WORDING TO CHANGE
i mean come on.....
IMO, this is about MUCH MORE than words.
INTENT and OUTCOME.
Right now, it's okay to kill people as long as you were just irresponsible and stupid.
I think we should be held responsible for the damage that we cause as a result of our irresponsible actions.
the law doesn't say it's ok to kill someone. the law says "you did something that was reckless and cause the death of an innocent party. while you did not INTEND to cause their death, your actions are so irresponsible and are NOT excusable...therefore, you will be imprisoned for X amount of time."
there is a punishment...he will get one. perhaps the lobby should be for DRUNK drivers convicted of vehicular manslaughter to have STIFFER sentences...have the drunken state be a mitigating factor to STIFFEN, not LESSEN the crime.
I completely agree. We should have harsher penalties for drunk drivers who kill people, but it shouldn't be called murder. I also think there should be some type of sentencing enhancement system for drunk drivers that give even harsher penalties to those who have previously been arrested for drunk driving.
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| Posted 9/12/06 6:50 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: Limo crash trial
Posted by MrsS2005
Posted by jf1975
Posted by suvenR
Posted by Redhead
there is NO NEED for the WORDING TO CHANGE
i mean come on.....
IMO, this is about MUCH MORE than words.
INTENT and OUTCOME.
Right now, it's okay to kill people as long as you were just irresponsible and stupid.
I think we should be held responsible for the damage that we cause as a result of our irresponsible actions.
the law doesn't say it's ok to kill someone. the law says "you did something that was reckless and cause the death of an innocent party. while you did not INTEND to cause their death, your actions are so irresponsible and are NOT excusable...therefore, you will be imprisoned for X amount of time."
there is a punishment...he will get one. perhaps the lobby should be for DRUNK drivers convicted of vehicular manslaughter to have STIFFER sentences...have the drunken state be a mitigating factor to STIFFEN, not LESSEN the crime.
I completely agree. We should have harsher penalties for drunk drivers who kill people, but it shouldn't be called murder. I also think there should be some type of sentencing enhancement system for drunk drivers that give even harsher penalties to those who have previously been arrested for drunk driving.
this is the crux of it...and what we should be fighting for/care about.
the rest is what Red said...semantics.
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| Posted 9/12/06 6:53 PM |
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Redhead
You Live, You Learn
Member since 5/05 31871 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: Limo crash trial
i agree
i think that the public is soo centered on the WORD Murder...
and i understand that...i cried when i read the articles in the newsday over the past week or so...
it actually hurts you to know this happened
and it makes everyone angry and want the guy to pay...
totally understandable....
but i think logically when you look at the laws...
when everyone...epsecially the jury is educated in the difference between the two charges
what the man did was in fact VMS.
and as long as he rots in jail...
i could careless what they call it..
Message edited 9/12/2006 6:59:53 PM.
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| Posted 9/12/06 6:58 PM |
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Redhead
You Live, You Learn
Member since 5/05 31871 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: Limo crash trial
the one tidbit that might be a biggie in swaying the conviction to murder as certain statements he "supposively" made after the accident
i think that might be a loophole
but not sure
which is why i originally answered i dunno
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| Posted 9/12/06 7:01 PM |
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CkGm
They get so big, so fast :(
Member since 5/05 13848 total posts
Name:
Christine
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Re: Limo crash trial
Posted by Redhead
Posted by MrsERod
bottom line is
he drank, and then proceeded to get behind the wheel. 2 innocent people were killed because of his careless disregard for human life. to me, that IS murder. and if it were my child or family member, God forbid, I'd pushing for nothing LESS than Murder in the first degree. and if the law needed to be changed to make it as clear as day - then I'd spend every waking moment of my life, lobbying for that legislation to be made.
but the bottom line is
what he did is VEHICLUAR MANSLAUGHTER by law
Unfortunate in this case since it doesn't seem to fit the crime, but it is the case.
Theresa- many hugs for having to relive your mom's death again today
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| Posted 9/12/06 7:05 PM |
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suvenR
designer mutt
Member since 5/05 4239 total posts
Name:
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Re: Limo crash trial
Posted by Beth1210
Posted by suvenR
Posted by Beth1210
ok- I feel better now - he will most likely be convicted of the lesser charge- I wasn't sure that they included it- but I am glad they did
you feel better because he'll most likely be convicted of the lesser charge?
you are twisting my words- and part of the posting was that me and few other people were concerned about him GETTING OFF- b/c the lesser charge was not included-
if the jury did not feel the DA meet the requirments for murder and the manslaughter was not an option- then he would be found not guilty
I did not twists your words. I questioned why you said what you said.
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| Posted 9/12/06 7:32 PM |
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Beth
The Key to your new home....
Member since 2/06 24849 total posts
Name:
Beth
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Re: Limo crash trial
Posted by suvenR
Posted by Beth1210
Posted by suvenR
Posted by Beth1210
ok- I feel better now - he will most likely be convicted of the lesser charge- I wasn't sure that they included it- but I am glad they did
you feel better because he'll most likely be convicted of the lesser charge?
you are twisting my words- and part of the posting was that me and few other people were concerned about him GETTING OFF- b/c the lesser charge was not included-
if the jury did not feel the DA meet the requirments for murder and the manslaughter was not an option- then he would be found not guilty
I did not twists your words. I questioned why you said what you said.
I am saying I feel better that the lesser charge is included- with out the posting about the lesser charge my post is taken out of context
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| Posted 9/12/06 7:40 PM |
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