| Posted By |
Message |
| Pages: 1 [2] 3 |
Blu-ize
Plan B is Now Plan A
Member since 7/05 32475 total posts
Name:
Susan
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
air marshal?
|
Posted 4/18/08 12:10 PM  |
| |
|
Long Island Weddings
Long Island's Largest Bridal Resource |
MamaMia
LIF Adolescent
Member since 5/07 886 total posts
Name:
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
I do think it was a matter of him just not following instructions, and whatever his religious beliefs are he could of done it before or after the flight.
I would be nervous if I was a passenger on that plane and he just ignored instructions and didn't stop praying..that would make me very nervous.
There's just certain things we cannot do at certain times and people just have to deal. 
|
| Posted 4/18/08 12:19 PM |
| |
|
MrsRbk
<3 <3 <3 <3
Member since 1/06 19197 total posts
Name:
Michelle
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
Posted by MamaMia
whatever his religious beliefs are he could of done it before or after the flight.
Right or wrong... that's just untrue. Afternoon and Morning Jewish prayers need to be done at a specific time during the day, not just when the person feels like it.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 12:21 PM |
| |
|
Kara
Now Zagat Rated!
Member since 3/07 13217 total posts
Name:
They call me "Tater Salad"
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
Posted by Shelly
Posted by headoverheels
this is odd - i didn't notice this before. if he was removed by security, then WHOSE security removed him? 
I assumed it was the airline's security.
I agree it was likely the airline's security. I posted that because, if as I hypothesized, he was removed for disobeying a federal aviation rule, I would have assumed airport security would have stepped in... Guess I was wrong.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 12:27 PM |
| |
|
MegZee
My bunny
Member since 5/06 8777 total posts
Name:
Meaghan
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
Posted by MrsRbk
Posted by MamaMia
whatever his religious beliefs are he could of done it before or after the flight.
Right or wrong... that's just untrue. Afternoon and Morning Jewish prayers need to be done at a specific time during the day, not just when the person feels like it.
then the passenger should not fly during these times if it is going to be an issue.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 12:28 PM |
| |
|
ILJ619
LIF Adult
Member since 6/06 1985 total posts
Name:
Irene
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
I think they should have let him finish instead of removing him. At the same time why would he choose his flight at his prayer time unless the flight was delayed or something beyond his control. I've never heard of this so what do other orthodox jews do when they fly I'm sure they must comply.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 12:29 PM |
| |
|
|
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
I have to agree with Shelly. I'm not Jewish and was unaware that prayers have to be said at certain times, so I could understand the crew and passengers being confused. BUT the man's friend explained to the crew what the man was doing, so after they were enlightened I don't see the problem. Yes, the man appeared to be ignoring their directions but in the same regard they're ignoring the relegious beliefs of one of their customers. IMO it didn't warrant his removal from the plane.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 12:31 PM |
| |
|
MamaMia
LIF Adolescent
Member since 5/07 886 total posts
Name:
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
Posted by MrsRbk
Posted by MamaMia
whatever his religious beliefs are he could of done it before or after the flight.
Right or wrong... that's just untrue. Afternoon and Morning Jewish prayers need to be done at a specific time during the day, not just when the person feels like it.
I'm just curious because I'm not Jewish so I really don't know..what happens if they don't get to pray at a specific time and it's just delayed?
The reason for my question is that it seems to be pointing to a "religous" arguement rather than a "safety" arguement, I wasn't there but all I have is a picture in my head of a man mumbling prayers with a book in his hand and being so deep in his prayers that he does not even so much as acknowledge the request for him to go back to his seat.
For some of us that do not understand the religion that would scare us, well me anyway if I was a passenger on the plane. I would think to myself "what else is this kook going to do 30,000 feet in the air?"
Again I think it was just a "safety" issue so what they did was within the guidelines.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 12:35 PM |
| |
|
Shelly
She's 7!!!
Member since 8/05 14624 total posts
Name:
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
Posted by MamaMia
I'm just curious because I'm not Jewish so I really don't know..what happens if they don't get to pray at a specific time and it's just delayed?
The reason for my question is that it seems to be pointing to a "religous" arguement rather than a "safety" arguement, I wasn't there but all I have is a picture in my head of a man mumbling prayers with a book in his hand and being so deep in his prayers that he does not even so much as acknowledge the request for him to go back to his seat.
For some of us that do not understand the religion that would scare us, well me anyway if I was a passenger on the plane. I would think to myself "what else is this kook going to do 30,000 feet in the air?"
Again I think it was just a "safety" issue so what they did was within the guidelines.
Because a man mumbling into a book may have scared you, how is that a safety issue?
The not sitting down part maybe a safety issue, but your being scared by an Orthodox man praying, when two friends are telling the flight attendant what he is doing and why he can't stop and when he will be done is not a safety issue. Many people are scared by someone wearing a turban on their flight. Should all people with turbans be forbidden to fly because some people are scared?
It all just seems a little intollerant. I can't even say its based on ignorance, because the man's friends were telling them what he was doing, why he couldn't stop and how long it would take.
As to *what happens* if someone doesn't say their prayers- I really don't know. What happens in any religion if someone doesn't do what they are suppose to do? Jews are supposed to pray 3 times a day on an average day. Its just what we are supposed to do, its a rule. To people who follow the religion strictly, like any religion, its very important to obey the rules of the religion. To stop in the middle of a prayer can be considered an offense to G-d.
Message edited 4/18/2008 1:52:24 PM.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 1:26 PM |
| |
|
headoverheels
s'il vous plaît
Member since 6/07 42079 total posts
Name:
LB
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
i am getting the feeling we don't know the whole story. if they were still boarding, why would they care if he only needed two more minutes? i have flown many times and the only time they really reprimand people to take their seats is when they begin taxiing to the runway.
it's a VERY big deal to open the doors of the plan once they are closed. this makes me think that they were just following procedure - no one wants to go thru all those safety checks again.
the two reasons why i agree with what the airline did was:
1. he refused to obey the orders of airline crew. this is a safety hazard in itself. they have NO way of knowing if he will do it again. this is directly related to
2. as i said before, what if his next time to pray occurred just as they needed to land, and he again refused to take his seat?
ETA: to address an earlier issue, according to my DH, who works at JFK, the airlines don't typically have their own security, but the airport itself does have private security officers (that don't work for TSA or the port authority).
Message edited 4/18/2008 1:53:55 PM.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 1:37 PM |
| |
|
Ginger123
Sooo happy
Member since 8/07 1235 total posts
Name:
dana
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
I am fuming at my seat right now bc this stuff gets under my skin. I was not there but the lesson I take from reading all this is simple. Obey the rules, they are there for a reason, ...there are no exceptions. I feel this is a huge problem with our generation we do what we want ,when we want to and then make excuses to justify ourselves. We are so selfish! Yes prayer is extremely important but laws/rules trump that, other people are involved its not your house.
You break the rules you pay the consequences and if you feel that the rule is unfair try to do something about it in a civil lawful way.
Message edited 4/18/2008 1:59:56 PM.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 1:53 PM |
| |
|
AmyG13
LIF Infant
Member since 12/07 159 total posts
Name:
Amy
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
Posted by Shelly
The not sitting down part maybe a safety issue, but your being scared by an Orthodox man praying, when two friends are telling the flight attendant what he is doing and why he can't stop and when he will be done is not a safety issue. Many people are scared by someone wearing a turban on their flight. Should all people with turbans be forbidden to fly because some people are scared?
A man in a turban wouldn't scare me. But a man in a turban, standing at the back of my plane, blatantly ignoring crew members, and praying in a foreign language (I'm assuming the Jewish prayers were not English) would scare me. Regardless of the religion I think the majority of the people on the plane would be upset by it. And I wouldn't be comforted by the friends explaining the actions. If it was some sort of a plot, they would probably be in on it and lying to the flight crew.
It may seem ignorant but it's today's reality. You can't trust anyone.
I still think the airline was in the right. If you don't obey the rules you don't fly.
I would guess the man left the plane without an argument and explained everything to staff in the terminal and that is why the TA wasn't involved.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 2:03 PM |
| |
|
LFitzy79
can hardly wait
Member since 5/05 2650 total posts
Name:
Lauren
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
Posted by AmyG13
Posted by Shelly
The not sitting down part maybe a safety issue, but your being scared by an Orthodox man praying, when two friends are telling the flight attendant what he is doing and why he can't stop and when he will be done is not a safety issue. Many people are scared by someone wearing a turban on their flight. Should all people with turbans be forbidden to fly because some people are scared?
A man in a turban wouldn't scare me. But a man in a turban, standing at the back of my plane, blatantly ignoring crew members, and praying in a foreign language (I'm assuming the Jewish prayers were not English) would scare me. Regardless of the religion I think the majority of the people on the plane would be upset by it. And I wouldn't be comforted by the friends explaining the actions. If it was some sort of a plot, they would probably be in on it and lying to the flight crew.
It may seem ignorant but it's today's reality. You can't trust anyone.
I still think the airline was in the right. If you don't obey the rules you don't fly.
I would guess the man left the plane without an argument and explained everything to staff in the terminal and that is why the TA wasn't involved.
ITA. And I beleive if this was really an issue that he needed to pray right at the time, standing, facing a certain way, regardless of the flight staff asking the man to take his seat, we'd be hearing about this sort of thing more often, as it is, I've NEVER heard of this situation happening EVER, and my father worked for Pan AM for 25 years.
It's not a faith issue, it's a compliance issue.
Message edited 4/18/2008 2:20:15 PM.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 2:15 PM |
| |
|
MamaMia
LIF Adolescent
Member since 5/07 886 total posts
Name:
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
Posted by Ginger123
I am fuming at my seat right now bc this stuff gets under my skin. I was not there but the lesson I take from reading all this is simple. Obey the rules, they are there for a reason, ...there are no exceptions. I feel this is a huge problem with our generation we do what we want ,when we want to and then make excuses to justify ourselves. We are so selfish! Yes prayer is extremely important but laws/rules trump that, other people are involved its not your house.
You break the rules you pay the consequences and if you feel that the rule is unfair try to do something about it in a civil lawful way.
 Well said.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 2:15 PM |
| |
|
MamaMia
LIF Adolescent
Member since 5/07 886 total posts
Name:
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
Posted by AmyG13
Posted by Shelly
The not sitting down part maybe a safety issue, but your being scared by an Orthodox man praying, when two friends are telling the flight attendant what he is doing and why he can't stop and when he will be done is not a safety issue. Many people are scared by someone wearing a turban on their flight. Should all people with turbans be forbidden to fly because some people are scared?
A man in a turban wouldn't scare me. But a man in a turban, standing at the back of my plane, blatantly ignoring crew members, and praying in a foreign language (I'm assuming the Jewish prayers were not English) would scare me. Regardless of the religion I think the majority of the people on the plane would be upset by it. And I wouldn't be comforted by the friends explaining the actions. If it was some sort of a plot, they would probably be in on it and lying to the flight crew.
It may seem ignorant but it's today's reality. You can't trust anyone.
I still think the airline was in the right. If you don't obey the rules you don't fly.
I would guess the man left the plane without an argument and explained everything to staff in the terminal and that is why the TA wasn't involved.
Good Point!
|
| Posted 4/18/08 2:17 PM |
| |
|
Goldi0218
My miracles!
Member since 12/05 23902 total posts
Name:
Leslie
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
Knowing how religious this man probably was, he should have thought about how his prayer rituals could feasibly interfere with his ability to travel.
I work in Crown Heights. Already, the stores have shut down for the Sabbath. People are pretty much where they need to be in preparation. They cannot travel after the sun goes down. Therefore, many do not drive a certain amount of time before they could feasibly get caught in traffic.
Similarly, this man should have considered unrpedictable time constraints and the possibility that his prayer rituals could pose a huge inconvenience to the general public. Public safety MUST come before religious beliefs ESPECIALLY in this day and age.
I am Jewish myself. Though I am not Orthodox, I am aware of the standing rituals as well as facing a certain direction and how prayers must be done at certain times of the day. The man planned poorly. One cannot expect the world to accommodate one person. It just doesnt work that way.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 2:33 PM |
| |
|
pinkandblue
Our family is complete, maybe
Member since 9/05 32436 total posts
Name:
Stephanie
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
Posted by Ginger123
I am fuming at my seat right now bc this stuff gets under my skin. I was not there but the lesson I take from reading all this is simple. Obey the rules, they are there for a reason, ...there are no exceptions. I feel this is a huge problem with our generation we do what we want ,when we want to and then make excuses to justify ourselves. We are so selfish! Yes prayer is extremely important but laws/rules trump that, other people are involved its not your house.
You break the rules you pay the consequences and if you feel that the rule is unfair try to do something about it in a civil lawful way.
his friends told the stewardess what he was doing, he was NOT a threat at all to anyone.....
Message edited 4/18/2008 2:38:55 PM.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 2:38 PM |
| |
|
Shelly
She's 7!!!
Member since 8/05 14624 total posts
Name:
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
Does it matter that the plane was just boarding and the doors weren't closed? This article in the NYT explains a lot.
Apparantly, the doors were not yet closed when he started, and finished his prayers.
What Happened: "The man returned to his seat after he finished the prayer, which lasted about two and a half minutes, Mr. Brafman said, but the attendants had called a customer service agent." "The agent ejected the man from the plane. There were no raised voices during the incident, and no other passengers complained, Mr. Brafman added."
Why he wouldn't stop: " 'It says in the Talmud that even if a snake curls around your ankle, you shouldn’t give up,' Mr. Sherman said. 'Barring a humongous catastrophe, like if someone has a gun to your head, you don’t stop.'”
Source
ETA: It was obvioulsy bad planning on the man's part, but I don't think it was harmful. I think it was mostly a lack of tolerance.
And while yes, we need to obey the law. I tend to assume that I can stand up until the doors close. I think its a natural mistake. And the punishment (kicking someone off the flight) did not fit the offense (not sitting down for 2 minutes while the doors were open).
Message edited 4/18/2008 2:45:51 PM.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 2:43 PM |
| |
|
curley999
Family!
Member since 5/05 2314 total posts
Name:
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
Honesty if I was sitting on that plane watching this I would be nervous. A man mumbling prayers in to a holy book and IGNORING the flight crews instructions. I would assume he was going to try to hijack and crash the plane and was saying his last prayers. Call me paraniod but that why these rules have been put into place. He could have easily told the flight crew before he started his prayers what he was going to do, or plan to travel at a better time to accomodate his personal needs.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 2:49 PM |
| |
|
quasi3
LIF Adult
Member since 7/07 1764 total posts
Name:
Stacey
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
Posted by stephanief
Posted by Ginger123
I am fuming at my seat right now bc this stuff gets under my skin. I was not there but the lesson I take from reading all this is simple. Obey the rules, they are there for a reason, ...there are no exceptions. I feel this is a huge problem with our generation we do what we want ,when we want to and then make excuses to justify ourselves. We are so selfish! Yes prayer is extremely important but laws/rules trump that, other people are involved its not your house.
You break the rules you pay the consequences and if you feel that the rule is unfair try to do something about it in a civil lawful way.
his friends told the stewardess what he was doing, he was NOT a threat at all to anyone.....
There was more than one person on each airplane on 911...so if one of them said dont mind him he is not going to do anything that would have made everything ok???? I dont think so. The rules are in place for our safety!!!!
|
| Posted 4/18/08 2:49 PM |
| |
|
headoverheels
s'il vous plaît
Member since 6/07 42079 total posts
Name:
LB
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
Posted by Shelly
And while yes, we need to obey the law. I tend to assume that I can stand up until the doors close. I think its a natural mistake. And the punishment (kicking someone off the flight) did not fit the offense (not sitting down for 2 minutes while the doors were open).
i totally agree with this. like i said - i think we are missing some facts. i truly hope he wasn't kicked off the plane for praying while the doors were still open and people were boarding.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 2:50 PM |
| |
|
Shelly
She's 7!!!
Member since 8/05 14624 total posts
Name:
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
Posted by headoverheels
i totally agree with this. like i said - i think we are missing some facts. i truly hope he wasn't kicked off the plane for praying while the doors were still open and people were boarding.
He was.
See the NYT article that I linked to. The UA representative confirmed that the doors were open. It explains why he woudln't stop also.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 2:51 PM |
| |
|
pinkandblue
Our family is complete, maybe
Member since 9/05 32436 total posts
Name:
Stephanie
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
Posted by quasi3
Posted by stephanief
Posted by Ginger123
I am fuming at my seat right now bc this stuff gets under my skin. I was not there but the lesson I take from reading all this is simple. Obey the rules, they are there for a reason, ...there are no exceptions. I feel this is a huge problem with our generation we do what we want ,when we want to and then make excuses to justify ourselves. We are so selfish! Yes prayer is extremely important but laws/rules trump that, other people are involved its not your house.
You break the rules you pay the consequences and if you feel that the rule is unfair try to do something about it in a civil lawful way.
his friends told the stewardess what he was doing, he was NOT a threat at all to anyone.....
There was more than one person on each airplane on 911...so if one of them said dont mind him he is not going to do anything that would have made everything ok???? I dont think so. The rules are in place for our safety!!!!
I guess so but call me nieve(sp), I do not have these fears running through my head. I am not saying it is wrong or irrational to fear things but for me , PERSONALLY, I would not be afraid.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 2:57 PM |
| |
|
quasi3
LIF Adult
Member since 7/07 1764 total posts
Name:
Stacey
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
I did not say I would be afraid. But I understand why he was removed from the plane. If everyone did what they wanted it would be chaos. That is why rules are established
|
| Posted 4/18/08 3:01 PM |
| |
|
joenick
Us
Member since 6/06 9370 total posts
Name:
Valerie...aka...Do Me A Favor?
|
Re: praying man removed from flight
Ya know what...in this day and age...post 9/11...there are laws that are enforced.
The laws don't have exceptions based on religion, age, ethnicity. The laws are just the laws...for EVERYBODY!
Having a husband that almost DIED on 9/11, I agree with all and ANY law that keeps us SAFE.
That man did not follow the law. He was treated accordingly. The end.
|
| Posted 4/18/08 3:07 PM |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 [2] 3 |
