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TheWhiteRabbit
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Thought it deserved it's own thread - Creating "new" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
I didn't want to hijack the Puggles thread, because I think this is it's own topic - but from the puggles thread =
Posted by Jesaroo
Posted by DeniseMarie
I normally stay out of these debates but couldnt help it
I got my COCKAPOO from a reputable breeder.
thats VERY debatable, as far as i am concerned, no reputable breeder breeds mixed breeds/mutts.... it DEFEATS teh purpose for breeding.
Not if they're trying to create a new RECOGNIZED breed. I do not know about puggles or cockapoos, but people have made comments about my cats being designer breeds, but they are a now RECOGNIZED new breed that is accepted at cat shows and have been in 'Cat Fancy' magazine and all that jazz. Here is their story.
My cat's breed was developed for several reasons. It was created by accident, the 2 cats spontaneously mated. The owner did not think it would happen (cross species) so she did not think to separate them. However, the resulting kittens were so cute and had great personalities she and a group of other breeders decided to develop the breed. My cat is a hybrid of an African Serval and a domestic cat.
By develop I mean they have developed a breed standard, have a geneticist and a microbiologist that are compiling research on them, go to cat shows and promote the breed, have breed committees, have education resources, DISCOURAGE exotic cat ownership and have an organized rescue program and we have a waiting list for a cat to be surrendered, NOT the other way around. I am actually on the breed committee & education. We have been accepted by TICA (the international cat association) as a new breed. FM me if you have specific questions about how they are bred or why, I don’t really want to debate MY cats, but more, what is wrong with creating a new breed.
So, my question is: Is there something wrong with creating a new breed? OTHER than the answer ‘because there are so many animals in shelters’ – because to me, that is NOT a valid argument, because then EVERY breed should be called “designer” and there should be NO purebreds, and I don’t agree with that.
I have my 2 purebred cats that I purchased from reputable breeders that I had researched, and 2 'mutt cats' I adopted. I also manage a feral cat colony of approx 35 cats and pay for everything out of pocket. I only give that as background because those 35 cats I care for are other people’s mistakes, dumping non ‘fixed’ cats at a warehouse that now I pay to have fixed, shots & feed them daily. They are unadoptable. I did feel since I was buying 2 cats, I needed give something back to the unadopted cats – instead of saving 2 cats, I have saved 58 (I have re-homed 23 cats/kittens from the colony). I am not saying that to get “thank yous”, I am saying that because it’s a personal decision for me to give back since I support pure-bred cats.
I think it’s unfair that because other people irresponsibly bred or dumped a dog or cat into a shelter because they no longer wanted it, that it should now be my responsibility to adopt it and I shouldn’t be able to choose my own puppy or kitten based on whatever criteria I have. It’s similar to saying you should give birth to your own child because there are so many children up for adoption. I can't have children, my cats are my children.
It’s not fair to the responsible breeders out there who love a particular breed, go to shows to promote their breed, research genetics and ancestry to try to create wonderful companion animals and help run rescue organizations for their breed. When it’s done well, there is a waiting list for the animals to be put into rescue, and not the other way around.
I have NEVER seen anyone on here attack someone for wanting to purchase a pet from a REPUTABLE breeder, and I LOOOVE that about this group.
I wanted to just ask about it because I here the term ‘designer’ breed and it bothers me, because my cats have been called that. What is wrong with creating something new? I have not researched dates, but at one time EVERY BREED came from the ‘wild’ or was created by crossing 2 different breeds, this is just happening NOW instead of 1000 years ago.
Edited to change the word 'designer' to 'new' because the point was getting a little lost due to the terminology.
Message edited 1/14/2008 10:46:17 AM.
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Posted 1/10/08 3:04 PM  |
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DeniseMarie
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
ITA
As long as their intentions are good/the dogs are well cared for, etc I dont see anything wrong with it
I know - I feltbad too that we kept posting on the puggle thread!
Message edited 1/10/2008 3:14:25 PM.
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| Posted 1/10/08 3:13 PM |
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Mrs-D-Girl
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Don't see anythng wrong either and I am an owner of a "designer" breed.
It is one thing to be cruel, abuse, etc.. but like the OP said, if they are being taken care of, I see nothing wrong with it.
Message edited 1/10/2008 3:38:36 PM.
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| Posted 1/10/08 3:21 PM |
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MarisaK
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Marisa
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
I don't have any problems with mixed breeds, with mutts, with ANY dog (I'm not a cat person  )
The 'Puggle' thing drives me crazy b/c someone accidentially created a pug/beagle mix - and ok that's fine I guess, I don't know much about breeding dogs - I'm in life insurace
.......but then they named this mutt a Puggle and justified selling it for $4,000 -
And let's avoid the puppymill/pet store debate - I'm talking STRICTLY about the fact the some person 'created' this new mutt, gave it a fancy name and suddenly the dog was priced at thousands of dollars -
There are thousands of 'mutts' out there in shelters that people don't adopt b/c they want a specific breed, and that is totally fine - I wanted a Yorke - I didn't want to adopt a dog that I was unsure about how big it would be, if I would be allergic, etc -
But a Puggle is not a breed, it's a mutt...........so you're charging me thoursands of dollars for a mutt ? And it's a sweet adorable doggie - but HOW did anyone come to pay thousands of dollars for a pug/beagle ??
It's the Economics of it that annoys me -
Message edited 1/10/2008 3:26:45 PM.
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| Posted 1/10/08 3:23 PM |
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SweetTooth
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Lauren
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Well, if you think about it, all dog breeds were created by the mating of two other breeds, they were selected for their best traits.
I think the difference is that there are many renegade "breeders" with dogs.
Lets take a puggle for instance, since that was the topic.
Like your cats, someone mated a pug and a beagle probably unintentionally. The resulting puppies were very cute and peope inquired. They started to become desirabe, and people were willing to pay money for a dog that used to be considered a mutt. The word spread and they became more desirable.
Now if a puggle was to be highly researched and declared a new dog breed, then the breed could be perpetuated and "perfected," so to speak, by breeders who know the breed inside and out.
The problem is that people breeding these dogs (puppymills and backyard breeders) are only in it for a buck, not for the good of the breed. I am sure there are a few that are doing research and looking into making it a recongnized breed, but these people would certainly be in the minority.
And as long as people keep thinking that puggles (or cockapoos, maltipoos, whatever) are cute, the people in it for the buck will continue to profit, and the consumer will continue to be duped into thinking they are paying money for a purebred animal.
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| Posted 1/10/08 3:24 PM |
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mia818
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Mia
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
What is considered a designer dog?
Aren't some of the hypoallergenic dogs made from cross breeding? This is a dog i will need to get in the future for my son.
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| Posted 1/10/08 3:27 PM |
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TheWhiteRabbit
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by SweetTooth
Now if a puggle was to be highly researched and declared a new dog breed, then the breed could be perpetuated and "perfected," so to speak, by breeders who know the breed inside and out.
OK, cool - that was sort of my question. So, IF the breeders were to be organized and actually get it recognized as a breed (like my cat was), then it wouldn't be an issue, it's the fact that they're NOT trying to get the breed in question (whatever it may be) to BE a "real" recognized breed.
That's basically exactly what I wanted to know! I honestly rarely post my cats because I wasn't sure how you all felt about new breeds. My cat IS a recognized breed with papers and a pedigree, not a 'mutt' being passed off as a purebred.
Also, Marisa, thanks for responding - it sounded like you were 'against' a designer breed, but I am glad to know it's not the 'creating something new' part it's the 'not taking it seriously' enough to actually GET it recognized as a breed.
It takes a LOT of time and money and heartache to get a breed recognized, honestly, a good breeder RARELY makes any money. They just do it because they LOVE the breed.
Message edited 1/10/2008 3:40:47 PM.
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| Posted 1/10/08 3:35 PM |
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TheWhiteRabbit
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by SweetTooth
And as long as people keep thinking that puggles (or cockapoos, maltipoos, whatever) are cute, the people in it for the buck will continue to profit, and the consumer will continue to be duped into thinking they are paying money for a purebred animal.
I kind of wonder if any of these "breeds" are trying to get accepted as new?? I only really know about cats
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| Posted 1/10/08 3:42 PM |
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MarisaK
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Marisa
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
I honestly don't know enough to be "against" anything - but I'd never be against an animal - Sorry if it came off that way -
I'm against the institution that would allow a mutt to be priced at $4k - I was living in the city when the puggles became popular and started seeing them ALL over the pet stores (again, don't touch that one please !!) on the Upper East and Upper West sides - they were in the window with a price tag of $4500 !! $4500 for a breed that's not a breed ??
After being on these boards, I want to kick myself for paying the obscene price I did for my "pure bred" .........but it doesn't make me love her any less -
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| Posted 1/10/08 3:43 PM |
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DeniseMarie
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by MarisaK
I honestly don't know enough to be "against" anything - but I'd never be against an animal - Sorry if it came off that way -
I'm against the institution that would allow a mutt to be priced at $4k - I was living in the city when the puggles became popular and started seeing them ALL over the pet stores (again, don't touch that one please !!) on the Upper East and Upper West sides - they were in the window with a price tag of $4500 !! $4500 for a breed that's not a breed ??
After being on these boards, I want to kick myself for paying the obscene price I did for my "pure bred" .........but it doesn't make me love her any less -
I guess as long as people are willing to pay the price.
Although I have to say Puggles are absolutely adorable!
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| Posted 1/10/08 3:44 PM |
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TheWhiteRabbit
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by MarisaK
they were in the window with a price tag of $4500 !! $4500 for a breed that's not a breed ??
Yeah, THAT seems really absurd. It’s one thing to pay $4,500 for a SHOW quality animal with breeding rights, but that does seem really crazy for soemthing that doesn't even have papers.
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| Posted 1/10/08 3:48 PM |
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Mrs-D-Girl
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by KittyTheStray
Posted by MarisaK
they were in the window with a price tag of $4500 !! $4500 for a breed that's not a breed ??
Yeah, THAT seems really absurd. It’s one thing to pay $4,500 for a SHOW quality animal with breeding rights, but that does seem really crazy for soemthing that doesn't even have papers.
Question on the papers, I have a Shorkie (Shitzu & Yorkie) - She came with Papers, including the parents info, medical records, etc... Does having the Papers mean anything?
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| Posted 1/10/08 3:50 PM |
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MarisaK
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Marisa
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by Mrs-D-Girl
Posted by KittyTheStray
Posted by MarisaK
they were in the window with a price tag of $4500 !! $4500 for a breed that's not a breed ??
Yeah, THAT seems really absurd. It’s one thing to pay $4,500 for a SHOW quality animal with breeding rights, but that does seem really crazy for soemthing that doesn't even have papers.
Question on the papers, I have a Shorkie (Shitzu & Yorkie) - She came with Papers, including the parents info, medical records, etc... Does having the Papers mean anything?
Honestly, I don't think so - I have a Yorkie DH bought me from a Pet Store for our 1st Anniversary - She has "papers" that tell me her 'parents' names and such .......I'm sure she did not come from a reputable breeder - We LOVE LOVE LOVE her - but she has her issues (like REALLY long legs for a Yorkie - .........)
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| Posted 1/10/08 3:53 PM |
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MarisaK
HELLO Manolo !!
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Marisa
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Double Post - Sorry !
Message edited 1/10/2008 3:55:22 PM.
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| Posted 1/10/08 3:54 PM |
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TheWhiteRabbit
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by Mrs-D-Girl
Question on the papers, I have a Shorkie (Shitzu & Yorkie) - She came with Papers, including the parents info, medical records, etc... Does having the Papers mean anything?
She probably came with a pedigree, but not AKC papers.
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| Posted 1/10/08 3:57 PM |
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Mrs-D-Girl
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by KittyTheStray
Posted by Mrs-D-Girl
Question on the papers, I have a Shorkie (Shitzu & Yorkie) - She came with Papers, including the parents info, medical records, etc... Does having the Papers mean anything?
She probably came with a pedigree, but not AKC papers.
Oh ok, got it thanks 
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| Posted 1/10/08 3:58 PM |
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SweetTooth
I'm a tired mommy!
Member since 12/05 20105 total posts
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Lauren
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by Mrs-D-Girl
Posted by KittyTheStray
Posted by Mrs-D-Girl
Question on the papers, I have a Shorkie (Shitzu & Yorkie) - She came with Papers, including the parents info, medical records, etc... Does having the Papers mean anything?
She probably came with a pedigree, but not AKC papers.
Oh ok, got it thanks
right, the pedigree will tell you family history.
unfortunately, though, I think a lot of those are forged. When dogs come from PM's they barely know who the mother is let alone the father. A backyard breeder might know.
If you read the pinned post at the top of the pets page, there is a section about papers.
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| Posted 1/10/08 4:06 PM |
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Mrs-D-Girl
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by SweetTooth
Posted by Mrs-D-Girl
Posted by KittyTheStray
Posted by Mrs-D-Girl
Question on the papers, I have a Shorkie (Shitzu & Yorkie) - She came with Papers, including the parents info, medical records, etc... Does having the Papers mean anything?
She probably came with a pedigree, but not AKC papers.
Oh ok, got it thanks
right, the pedigree will tell you family history.
unfortunately, though, I think a lot of those are forged. When dogs come from PM's they barely know who the mother is let alone the father. A backyard breeder might know.
If you read the pinned post at the top of the pets page, there is a section about papers.
Ok, thanks again.
I actually met the Father and Mother of my dog.
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| Posted 1/10/08 4:10 PM |
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Nicole728
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by mia818
What is considered a designer dog?
.
This is what I'm wondering too....What is the difference between on of them and my two mutts? Do they have to proove that they dog is only crossed between two particular breeds?
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| Posted 1/10/08 5:41 PM |
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Gertyrae
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Basically, a designer dog is one where the parents are identifiable breeds.
IE: mom is a yorkie/dad is a shitzu - pup is a yorkie-poo.
This means nothing in terms of traits because this isn't a case of long-term breeding for specific traits. With these designer dogs, they can have the good qualities of one breed and the bad of the other with no rhyme or reason because there is no pattern behind it.
You can get a puggle - and have a yappy, howly dog because it inherited those traits from the beagle...or it can have serious breathing issues because it inherited it from the pug...Neither of which is necessarily bad, but when you pay $$$$$$$ for a dog it would be nice to know what you are getting. That's the point of buying from a breeder - knowing what you get and being able to bring it back to the breeder if you have any issues.
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| Posted 1/10/08 5:55 PM |
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Jesaroo
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Jes
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
is the AKC trying to develop a new breed? no, its millers and byb's..... thats why no reputable breeders breeds mutts.
not only that, but IMO the world is already wayyyy overpopulated with mutts, purebreds, designer breeds as it is.... why create even MORE animals? this is a personal opinion obviously.
no need to be trying to 'create' new breeds.
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| Posted 1/10/08 7:43 PM |
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Porrruss
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
From what I've read, the ONLY "designer dog" that may get recognition as a breed is the cockerpoo. This is because the "breed" has been around for many, MANY years and breed standards have been established and are being developed for AKC recognition.
With the current "designer dogs" there are no breed standards, which is why ANY person who breeds these dogs IS a backyard breeder.
Are all BYB these cruel individuals who abuse their animals? NO~ many of them love their pets very much and see it as a hobby.
Does it make them any less dangerous than the "bad" BYB and puppy mills? NO.
The reason for this is ALL BYB (including the nice people up the street) don't know the first thing about breed standards and proper breeding (to avoid genetically undesirable traits, to avoid line and inbreeding). They are generally only in it for the money (why else would they sell what is essentially a mutt for 800.00?).
A "reputable" breeder is recognized by the AKC and is in the business to preserve or BETTER the breed standards. A reputable breeder will show their dogs regularly and only have a few litters a year (depending on their kennel size). Most breeders will not readily sell to just anyone and are very stringent in their screening process. They also require that you spay/neuter your new pet. The reason reputable breeders charge $$ for their pet quality puppies is to recoup some of the $ that goes INTO showing their dogs.
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| Posted 1/10/08 8:00 PM |
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pinkandblue
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by Porrruss
From what I've read, the ONLY "designer dog" that may get recognition as a breed is the cockerpoo. This is because the "breed" has been around for many, MANY years and breed standards have been established and are being developed for AKC recognition.
With the current "designer dogs" there are no breed standards, which is why ANY person who breeds these dogs IS a backyard breeder.
Are all BYB these cruel individuals who abuse their animals? NO~ many of them love their pets very much and see it as a hobby.
Does it make them any less dangerous than the "bad" BYB and puppy mills? NO.
The reason for this is ALL BYB (including the nice people up the street) don't know the first thing about breed standards and proper breeding (to avoid genetically undesirable traits, to avoid line and inbreeding). They are generally only in it for the money (why else would they sell what is essentially a mutt for 800.00?).
A "reputable" breeder is recognized by the AKC and is in the business to preserve or BETTER the breed standards. A reputable breeder will show their dogs regularly and only have a few litters a year (depending on their kennel size). Most breeders will not readily sell to just anyone and are very stringent in their screening process. They also require that you spay/neuter your new pet. The reason reputable breeders charge $$ for their pet quality puppies is to recoup some of the $ that goes INTO showing their dogs.
thanks for posting all this information
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| Posted 1/10/08 8:04 PM |
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TheWhiteRabbit
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by Jesaroo
not only that, but IMO the world is already wayyyy overpopulated with mutts, purebreds, designer breeds as it is.... why create even MORE animals? this is a personal opinion obviously.
I respect your position. I in no way support BYB or puppymills or pet stores, I think any of you who know me know that.
Posted by Jesaroo
is the AKC trying to develop a new breed? no, its millers and byb's..... thats why no reputable breeders breeds mutts.
That is a completely uninformed statement. The breed registries never 'create' the breeds, and in the case of cats, not the breed standards, either. It is the breed committees that create the breed standards and submit it for approval to the registry. No BYB or puppy miller would ever try to get a new breed recognized because it takes years of research, years of time, thousands and thousands of dollars.
I speak as someone involved in getting a new breed recognized. Again, I'm involved with cats, not dogs, I don't know if it works the same way for dog breeds but I would think it's quite similar.
Edited for spelling
Message edited 1/11/2008 9:14:39 AM.
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| Posted 1/10/08 8:10 PM |
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TheWhiteRabbit
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by Porrruss
A "reputable" breeder is recognized by the AKC and is in the business to preserve or BETTER the breed standards. A reputable breeder will show their dogs regularly and only have a few litters a year (depending on their kennel size). Most breeders will not readily sell to just anyone and are very stringent in their screening process. They also require that you spay/neuter your new pet. The reason reputable breeders charge $$ for their pet quality puppies is to recoup some of the $ that goes INTO showing their dogs.
I completely agree - and you are 100% correct. My question was more to ask if people had issue with breeders grouping together to create a new breed, like what was done with my cats.
I can't even remember all the steps we went through to get accepted. The breeders developed the standard, it was submitted to the registry for feedback, it was submitted to the registry's genetics committee, we were accepted as an 'experimental breed', then you need to have "X" number of shows with "y" number of cats (I can't remember the exact numbers), then you're moved to "preliminary new breed", then "advanced new breed" and finally "championship".
Again, I don't know about all these dog crosses, I wanted to see what the general consensus was on actually doing all the work and creating a recognized new breed, if people felt that was a "bad" thing.
I am happy that it seems that most of you agree that ALL breeds at one time were a cross or hybrid of some type and as long as the breeders are willing to do that work and actually develop the breed that it's not a terrible thing.
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| Posted 1/10/08 8:22 PM |
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