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JenniferLMSW
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
I know this is not related to everything you are discussing but just wanted to say that I have a puggle and he was no where near $4,000....& I didn't purchase him bc he was the newest trend or a designer dog...I purchased him bc I fell in love with him when we met !
Message edited 1/10/2008 8:23:09 PM.
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Posted 1/10/08 8:22 PM  |
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Porrruss
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by JenniferLMSW
I know this is not related to everything you are discussing but just wanted to say that I have a puggle and he was no where near $4,000....& I didn't purchase him bc he was the newest trend or a designer dog...I purchased him bc I fell in love with him when we met !
I think the 4000.00 statement was someone being facetious. But paying more than the adoption fee you'd normally pay at a shelter is too much to pay for what is essentially a "mixed breed" (i.e. a mutt). And I'll bet you paid more than 150.00-200.00 for your puggle.
Message edited 1/10/2008 8:26:31 PM.
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| Posted 1/10/08 8:25 PM |
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JenniferLMSW
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Actually, puggles are bread from a 100% pure bread Beagle and 100% pure bread pug & it's a known thing...not really a "MUTT" per say in my opinion. You don't even know what most dogs are when you go to shelters.....I love both types of dogs so why not all in one 
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| Posted 1/10/08 8:44 PM |
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Porrruss
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by JenniferLMSW
Actually, puggles are bread from a 100% pure bread Beagle and 100% pure bread pug & it's a known thing...not really a "MUTT" per say in my opinion. You don't even know what most dogs are when you go to shelters.....I love both types of dogs so why not all in one
Purebreed means of ONE BREED. Pug=purebreed, beagle=purebreed. Pug+Beagle=mixed breed (as in the mixing of 2 breeds).
Forgive me, but I am going to be blunt: Considering you freely admitted your puggle was an impulse buy from a petstore, I'm not surprised you don't know the difference bewteen a purebreed and a mixed breed.
As for your last statement about getting all in one.... all I can say is, wow.
Message edited 1/10/2008 8:51:28 PM.
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| Posted 1/10/08 8:50 PM |
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TheWhiteRabbit
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by JenniferLMSW
Actually, puggles are bread from a 100% pure bread Beagle and 100% pure bread pug & it's a known thing...not really a "MUTT" per say in my opinion. You don't even know what most dogs are when you go to shelters.....I love both types of dogs so why not all in one
It is a mutt until the breeders take the time to develop it into a recognized breed.
You can know the lineage and parentage of an animal and it still is a mutt. It's not to say it's not a great dog, mutt is not a bad word, it's just not a 'real' breed that can be shown and has a standard that has all the 'defects' of the breed ironed out.
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| Posted 1/10/08 8:51 PM |
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Porrruss
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
To Kara: I think the term "designer" has such an ugly connotation because these new "poo" mixes (save for the cockerpoo, which has been around for a LONG time) as well as micro-mini breed mixes suddenly became popular and suddenly EVERYONE wants one- and the less responsible BYB and pet stores are cashing in on the "fad".
I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with the development of new breeds with the intent to be recognized by AKC (as well as CFA for cats). It's the "fad" animals that I have a problem with. Well, not the animals themselves, I love them. It's the morons who choose to shell out big bucks for a mixed breed "designer" which in term prepetuates the idea that there is "big money" to be made by ruining breed standards that I have a problem with.
I myself am a mommy 2 two doll-faced, pet quality Himilayans- a breed that is but also isn't considered a breed. Some consider the Himmy a "color type" of Persian, others consider them to be a separate breed from the persian.
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| Posted 1/10/08 9:05 PM |
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JenniferLMSW
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
I didn't say that a puggle was a purebread dog..I said they are made from two purebread animals of different breeds. I am aware that his is mixed, please don't speak to me like I'm an idiot bc I have an opinion...but I dont refer to my dog as a MUTT ! You have to realize that when you discuss these things and talk about the types of dogs that certain people have on here we can get defensive bc these paricular types of animals are our pets and a member of our family. Even if you are not specifically talking about my dog, you are talking about the type of dog I have and I and many others naturally take it personally. For someone who believes in preaching against cruelty to animals you think you would be more sensitive to that in regard to your response to my opinion.
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| Posted 1/10/08 9:08 PM |
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TheWhiteRabbit
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by JenniferLMSW
...but I dont refer to my dog as a MUTT !
There is NOTHING wrong with the word "mutt" - it means a dog of mixed decent, not a purebred, which your dog IS by your own admission. It's NOT meant to be negative. I am sorry if me calling it a mutt hurt you or offended you, it's not meant to, nor do I mean to offend others who have dogs of mixed parentage, but I am not sure what to else to call them. I didn't realize mutt offended people, I volunteer at a shelter, I love all animals... but... a dog of mixed parentage is a ... mutt.
Is there a different/better term I should use? In the cat word, we often call 'mutt cats' "domestic short hairs" - is there a term like that for dogs?
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| Posted 1/10/08 9:14 PM |
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JenniferLMSW
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Mixed Breed! Or in my case call them exactly what they are...Puggles..half pug/half beagle.
Message edited 1/10/2008 9:27:35 PM.
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| Posted 1/10/08 9:23 PM |
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Porrruss
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by JenniferLMSW
I didn't say that a puggle was a purebread dog..I said they are made from two purebread animals of different breeds. I am aware that his is mixed, please don't speak to me like I'm an idiot bc I have an opinion...but I dont refer to my dog as a MUTT ! You have to realize that when you discuss these things and talk about the types of dogs that certain people have on here we can get defensive bc these paricular types of animals are our pets and a member of our family. Even if you are not specifically talking about my dog, you are talking about the type of dog I have and I and many others naturally take it personally. For someone who believes in preaching against cruelty to animals you think you would be more sensitive to that in regard to your response to my opinion.
I don't understand when the term "MUTT" became derogatory? I have a Dalmation mix- she is a Mutt.I guess it's like the "nappy-headed ho" of the canine world. Should we just start calling it "the 'M' word"?
And my reasoning for having little patience with you is not because of your opinion (hey, we've all got em), it's because I don't respect people like you.
And by the way, I think I've been very polite (curt?- yes, rude?-no).
C'est la Vie~ we can't like, nor get along with everyone.....
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| Posted 1/10/08 9:23 PM |
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TheWhiteRabbit
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by Porrruss
To Kara: I think the term "designer" has such an ugly connotation because these new "poo" mixes (save for the cockerpoo, which has been around for a LONG time) as well as micro-mini breed mixes suddenly became popular and suddenly EVERYONE wants one- and the less responsible BYB and pet stores are cashing in on the "fad".
Thank you! I agree - I don't like the term 'designer' breed either, it does imply a fad. I guess it's the terminology that's the issue. I only know about all the provisional breeds in cats, because I go to the shows a lot, so with all the poos and doodles I am at a loss 
I appreciate you taking the time to 'debate'' with me!
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| Posted 1/10/08 9:23 PM |
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nicrae
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by JenniferLMSW
Mixed Breed! Or in my case call them exactly what they are...Puggles..half pug/half beagle.
Ok this is again silly. I have a puggle. He is a mutt. I have a rottie chow and guess what? He is a mutt too being a mixed breed. In fact I am a mutt....italian, french, german.....there isn't anything wrong with the term.
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| Posted 1/10/08 9:29 PM |
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TheWhiteRabbit
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by niikki-8-18-06
In fact I am a mutt....italian, french, german.....there isn't anything wrong with the term.
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| Posted 1/10/08 9:31 PM |
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Porrruss
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by KittyTheStray
Posted by Porrruss
To Kara: I think the term "designer" has such an ugly connotation because these new "poo" mixes (save for the cockerpoo, which has been around for a LONG time) as well as micro-mini breed mixes suddenly became popular and suddenly EVERYONE wants one- and the less responsible BYB and pet stores are cashing in on the "fad".
Thank you! I agree - I don't like the term 'designer' breed either, it does imply a fad. I guess it's the terminology that's the issue. I only know about all the provisional breeds in cats, because I go to the shows a lot, so with all the poos and doodles I am at a loss
I appreciate you taking the time to 'debate'' with me!
Anytime But now look at what you've done~ created a "drama" thread
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| Posted 1/10/08 9:36 PM |
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Porrruss
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by JenniferLMSW
Mixed Breed! Or in my case call them exactly what they are...Puggles..half pug/half beagle.
OK~ just because you're making it too easy for me... one more:
For someone who claims to have purchased her dog out of love, rather than because of the latest fad (see your above post)- you sure seem to be awfully preoccupied by name brands and labels......
And with that.... I bid you and your "M-word" g'night....
Message edited 1/10/2008 9:39:56 PM.
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| Posted 1/10/08 9:39 PM |
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lucyloo
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by Porrruss
From what I've read, the ONLY "designer dog" that may get recognition as a breed is the cockerpoo. This is because the "breed" has been around for many, MANY years and breed standards have been established and are being developed for AKC recognition.
I doubt that. IMO AKC takes a while to recognize breeds. I have a Jack Russell Terrier or at least that's what the breeder said. They have been around for years. They have recently recognized the Parsons Russell Terrier which looks like a JRT but a little taller. They can both have rough and smooth coats.
UKC Jack Russell Terrier
AKC Pason Russell Terrier
Message edited 1/10/2008 9:57:07 PM.
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| Posted 1/10/08 9:55 PM |
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by JenniferLMSW
You have to realize that when you discuss these things and talk about the types of dogs that certain people have on here we can get defensive bc these paricular types of animals are our pets and a member of our family. Even if you are not specifically talking about my dog, you are talking about the type of dog I have and I and many others naturally take it personally.
I agree with this part of your statement. I enjoy learning about animals and breeding. I would not breed because I do not have enough education or time. Having said that...I think some of the reason conversations get heated is becasue people do feel the need to "defend" what they have or how they got it. I admit freely I had a German Shephard that we bought from a pet store. I would be glad to share our story of Radr in FM if you want to hear it, but this is not the place. We got Radar 5yrs ago and before I knew much at all about breeding. She was a fantastic dog and now has a loving home. Everytime I hear a story about breeders I get defensive. Kinda like I have to defend Radar. I just think that all of the education and WONDERFUL knowledge gets lost the second someone feels like they have to defend an action. I do understand the point isn't to "attack" or be little, but to educate someone on their family/pet member, but sometimes I wish EVERYBODY would take a step back and think about what it is they are saying. Almost 90% of the "fighting" I read on here is because someone feels backed into a cornor and they need to defend their actions or pet. These are more then pets they are our furbabies and we'll defend to the grave our love for them regardless(?) of what is happening. Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents
Oh and Kitty....your cats are AMAZING! It's wonderful to see someone who loves animals so much, and wants to educate others. You really are a remarkable women! 
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| Posted 1/11/08 5:11 AM |
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TheWhiteRabbit
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by medic6809
I just think that all of the education and WONDERFUL knowledge gets lost the second someone feels like they have to defend an action. I do understand the point isn't to "attack" or be little, but to educate someone on their family/pet member, but sometimes I wish EVERYBODY would take a step back and think about what it is they are saying.
I agree - I hope we can all learn and educate each other, just like me not using the term mutt, which I didn't realize was offensive.
Please do not think I am 'incredible' or anything, I do what I do because it makes me feel good and because I feel I need to give back since I did purchase my cats from (reputable) breeders.
Even if there's drama I don't mind, I just hope that some new information gets out there!
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| Posted 1/11/08 10:02 AM |
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lucyloo
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by KittyTheStray
Please do not think I am 'incredible'
I do- that's wonderful what you do for the ferals.
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| Posted 1/11/08 10:09 AM |
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MarisaK
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by KittyTheStray
Posted by Porrruss
To Kara: I think the term "designer" has such an ugly connotation because these new "poo" mixes (save for the cockerpoo, which has been around for a LONG time) as well as micro-mini breed mixes suddenly became popular and suddenly EVERYONE wants one- and the less responsible BYB and pet stores are cashing in on the "fad".
Thank you! I agree - I don't like the term 'designer' breed either, it does imply a fad. I guess it's the terminology that's the issue. I only know about all the provisional breeds in cats, because I go to the shows a lot, so with all the poos and doodles I am at a loss
I appreciate you taking the time to 'debate'' with me!
In my case, I was not exaggerating or being facetious when I stated I saw Puggles being sold in pet stores for $4500 - (Again, on the UES and UWS of Mahnattan where everything has in inflated price tag) but it's for THAT reason that I call these mixes 'designer' - b/c it's kind of the same thing as a Gucci bag -
(and before someone jumps on me for comparing an animal to a bag, it's JUST to explain my point, I don't in any way treat my doggie like a designer bag)
Do you LOVE it ? Sure .......is it BEAUTIFUL? Sure.......but really ? What makes it different from the bag being sold across the street ? - Not much, other than the fact that it has suddenly become 'popular' - And there's nothing wrong with that - It doesn't make me a bad or shallow person for wanting the beautiful bag or the adorable doggie -
So when Puggles became popular, seller saw dollar signs, and people were suddenly buying a "mixed breed" for $4500 when 4 or 5 years ago the same people would have passed the dog by in a shelter b/c they didn't really want a mutt - OH, excuse me, a "Mixed Breed" -
And I don't understand why the word "mutt" is so offensive .....??
And of course not ALL people bought their puggle for that much, not ALL people bought their puggle at all -
I don't throw stones - I bought my doggie at a pet store - and I have a Yorkie, people could accuse me of wanting to carry it around in a little bag like friggen Paris Hilton -
I don't feel the need to defend WHY I wanted a her or explain myself to everyone -
But everyone has an opinion and comes here to voice it -
If we all constantly tip toed around everyone's feelings, none of us would ever learn anything -
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| Posted 1/11/08 10:37 AM |
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MsMBV
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
I had so much to say, but it seems Porrrus beat me to it! You hit the nail right on the head with your posts.
As for MarisaK's statements, yes, some "designer" pet shops were selling Puggles, Maltipoos, York-tzu's and other ridiculous mixes for anywhere between $3000 - $5000, and not just in Manhattan.
The inherent problems with designer dogs are:
1- dogs = fashion = many unwanted dogs in shelters after the fad wears off. (Now before I get kicked in the shins, I am not implying that any owner here who has a mixed breed is going to get rid of them, but HISTORICALLY, when a breed becomes popular quickly, people (in general) buy them without researching them & many end up in shelters b/c the owners find out too late that they are not compatible for their life... a great example of this is when people were buying Dalmations for their kids after Disney had the live action film. Many people did not realise that these dogs need a lot of exercise and can go deaf young...etc... there was a huge influx of Dalmations coming to shelters. Same with Huskies after Snow Dogs & don't even get me started about Spuds Mackenzie...)
2- Many times the fad comes so quickly that BYB & PMs begin over-breeding them to an extent that they do not know how much pug or how much beagle is in the mix. They over-breed to create a good supply and satisfy a fleeting demand. There are no guidelines that are followed to breed these dogs, and no testing of lineage like the AKC requires.
3- The BYBs and PMs are not bound by AKC requirements, but will create their own Kennel Club to give the appearance of being legitimate. There are a few KC's that are notorious for falsifying pedigrees for PMs and BYBs. This is why some dogs have "papers." If the dog is not AKC, then you risk the dog having falsified papers. Even some AKC papers are falsified, to which the new owner is surprised that they cannot register their dog.
4- There are no guarantees when you get a mix, regardless of what you are told. The only mix at this point that has any ability to claim the intended outcome is the Cockerpoo, since it has been under AKC consideration for years, and is following very strict guidelines and diligent testing of the genetic results. I think it has been about 30 years in the making, and even though the breed is becoming predictable, it STILL in not fully recognized as its own breed by the AKC.
I have had all kinds of dogs...pure breeds, show potential, mutts, rescues......I think that no on here is saying that the dogs themselves are a "lower" form of dog. The breeders that profit from the fad or from the impulse are the ones who are a lower form of breeder. They over-breed their dogs, exhaust lineage and create defects, and they take NO consideration for the creation of a new breed - they only want the $$ & strike while the iron is hot.
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| Posted 1/11/08 11:30 AM |
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casey31
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Is there something wrong with creating a new breed? OTHER than the answer ‘because there are so many animals in shelters’ – because to me, that is NOT a valid argument, because then EVERY breed should be called “designer” and there should be NO purebreds, and I don’t agree with that.
_____________________
A long time ago we had this debate on this board- I think I was the only person who felt differently. I guess I just don't understand going to a breeder for a dog. We have two "rescue" dogs- they are such mutts the vet can't tell what they are- mostly collie mixes though. They are gentle and honestly, much smarter and calmer dogs then the trained guide dogs that my in-laws live with (they adopted lab and golden puppies that failed the training).
I feel that there are so many wonderful homeless dogs that NO dogs should be bred to make more. Also, pure breds tend to have "stronger" temperment qualities than mutts and sometimes more health issues.
JMHO - but, I know everyone on this board uses reputable breeders and loves their animals tremendously so I really mean no disrespect- just my feelings on the issue.
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| Posted 1/11/08 3:03 PM |
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TheWhiteRabbit
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by casey31
I feel that there are so many wonderful homeless dogs that NO dogs should be bred to make more. Also, pure breds tend to have "stronger" temperment qualities than mutts and sometimes more health issues.
I totally respect that position.
My only thought is - if no one formally bred dogs, wouldn't they eventually 'die off'? I mean if there were no reputable breeders in addition to no other types of breeders, wouldn't the only thing left be BYB who make "accident" type dog breedings, which doesn’t happen constantly (don’t get me wrong, I know it happens a lot), so after the life span of the current dog population wouldn't there be not a lot of dogs left? Does my question even make sense??
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| Posted 1/11/08 3:40 PM |
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MsMBV
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
Posted by KittyTheStray
Posted by casey31
I feel that there are so many wonderful homeless dogs that NO dogs should be bred to make more. Also, pure breds tend to have "stronger" temperment qualities than mutts and sometimes more health issues.
I totally respect that position.
My only thought is - if no one formally bred dogs, wouldn't they eventually 'die off'? I mean if there were no reputable breeders in addition to no other types of breeders, wouldn't the only thing left be BYB who make "accident" type dog breedings, which doesn’t happen constantly (don’t get me wrong, I know it happens a lot), so after the life span of the current dog population wouldn't there be not a lot of dogs left? Does my question even make sense??
One school of thought is that eventually there would be only one type of dogs with slight differences...not unlike dingos or wolves.
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| Posted 1/11/08 3:56 PM |
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smdl
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Re: Thought it deserved it's own thread - "designer" breeds debate - very long. Something new for us to fight over
I was ALWAYS a pure breed person.
But now I have 2 "designer" dogs. Another word for "mutts" and I bought them. Which I would have NEVER conceived when I was younger.
I did not purchase them because I could carry them around in a Chanel tote bag.
I have serious allergies. My dogs were "designed" for people like me. I stayed with them a good while with them to make sure I would not sneeze to death.
I love my dogs.
I think it is important to have pure breeds to maintain standards but most current "breed" dogs were "mutts" at one time. Anyone can look at a breed origin and find that they were "created" and mixed from 2 other breeds at some time in history. People have played with genetic with animals/pets for hundred of years to develop animal to do specific things. Sheep dogs, lap dogs at the court of England, etc...
I think where you buy them from is more important. You can have pure breeds from a horrible breeder. Then have "designer" dogs that come from a wonderful place.
F1 dogs are more "umpredictable" than older generations of a mix. I think eventually the cockapoo will be a breed on it's own in the future.
As for the shelter. I would NEVER get an adult dog (pure breed or not). I do know his/her history. I like puppies that I can raise.
Message edited 1/12/2008 9:16:15 AM.
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| Posted 1/12/08 9:11 AM |
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