Re: What is the point of tenure?

I'm sorry, but tenure is not the reason our education system is failing. I teach in an independent school because I feel it provides a chance to better educate students and while I don't get tenure, I do see why public school teachers have it. Anyone can say anything about you and claim it as fact and you need protection from that. For those who think tenure is not a good thing, do you also think unions for other professions aren't good, either? I'm just curious.

Re: What is the point of tenure?

It protects academic freedom and allows you to evaluate student performance without fear of retribution. It also allows you to criticize administration without fear of retaliation.

Message edited 9/20/2010 8:15:40 PM.

Re: What is the point of tenure?

Message edited 9/20/2010 8:24:32 PM.

Re: What is the point of tenure?

Message edited 9/20/2010 8:18:19 PM.

Re: What is the point of tenure?

Today's Oprah was just another attack on teachers. I am sorry, but the principal who was standing and shaking the hands of each child who came off of the bus....sorry but that is BS and I don't think it happens each day.
Also, schools that are funded by Mr. Gates probably have more technology than is even necessary and they also hand select their students......

Then there is a little something I like to call REALITY in NYC BOE. Most classrooms and schools are like mine. 99% free lunch, 100% ELL population, parents are working poor and most can not communicate with us unless we speak Spanish, over crowded classrooms, not enough supplies, and a bunch of DAMN GOOD TEACHERS WHO ARE WILLING TO WORK THEIR A$$ES OFF IN SOMEWHAT MISERABLE CONDITIONS BECAUSE WE CARE!

I would have loved to be in that audience. Oh and I love how she gave them more money when there are schools like mine who IMPROVED state scores under the new more difficult standards despite all of our obstacles who can not afford to buy enough notebooks for all of our students

Re: What is the point of tenure?

Posted by lilqtny

Today's Oprah was just another attack on teachers. I am sorry, but the principal who was standing and shaking the hands of each child who came off of the bus....sorry but that is BS and I don't think it happens each day.
Also, schools that are funded by Mr. Gates probably have more technology than is even necessary and they also hand select their students......

Then there is a little something I like to call REALITY in NYC BOE. Most classrooms and schools are like mine. 99% free lunch, 100% ELL population, parents are working poor and most can not communicate with us unless we speak Spanish, over crowded classrooms, not enough supplies, and a bunch of DAMN GOOD TEACHERS WHO ARE WILLING TO WORK THEIR A$$ES OFF IN SOMEWHAT MISERABLE CONDITIONS BECAUSE WE CARE!

I would have loved to be in that audience. Oh and I love how she gave them more money when there are schools like mine who IMPROVED state scores under the new more difficult standards despite all of our obstacles who can not afford to buy enough notebooks for all of our students

Message edited 9/20/2010 8:52:58 PM.

Re: What is the point of tenure?

Posted by lilqtny

Today's Oprah was just another attack on teachers. I am sorry, but the principal who was standing and shaking the hands of each child who came off of the bus....sorry but that is BS and I don't think it happens each day.
Also, schools that are funded by Mr. Gates probably have more technology than is even necessary and they also hand select their students......

Then there is a little something I like to call REALITY in NYC BOE. Most classrooms and schools are like mine. 99% free lunch, 100% ELL population, parents are working poor and most can not communicate with us unless we speak Spanish, over crowded classrooms, not enough supplies, and a bunch of DAMN GOOD TEACHERS WHO ARE WILLING TO WORK THEIR A$$ES OFF IN SOMEWHAT MISERABLE CONDITIONS BECAUSE WE CARE!

I would have loved to be in that audience. Oh and I love how she gave them more money when there are schools like mine who IMPROVED state scores under the new more difficult standards despite all of our obstacles who can not afford to buy enough notebooks for all of our students

Re: What is the point of tenure?

Re: What is the point of tenure?

Message edited 9/20/2010 8:51:41 PM.

Re: What is the point of tenure?

I must admit that I am one of those people who does not understand the need for tenure. I am just curious why it is different from any other profession. In my profession (attorney) there is no such thing as job security - when I worked at a large law firm we are at the mercy of the whims of the partners, and the clients etc. Trust me, I am not saying that is neccesarily a good thing - I just think teacher have better lobbying power.

That being said I (and I admit I am somewhat ignorant as to how the system works) I think that a good solution would be that you have to "renew" your tenure every 5 years or so. I think that would serve to protect the teachers while at the same time ensuring that those teachers still deserve their tenure.

On a personal note - I never learned chemistry in high school. I know absolutely nothing even though I took honors chemistry. My teacher - who was a nice woman - was probably in her 50's and no longer really cared plus we suspected she was an alcoholic. The students would literally try to teach each other and exams were graded by the students. It was a huge disservice and I suspect I am not the only person with such a story. I had many great teachers as well but it is a shame that those responsible for our education did prevent the "bad" teachers from ruining that aspect of our education.

Re: What is the point of tenure?

Without tenure, most teachers are one crazy parent, student or administrator away from being fired. Seriously. It entitles us to due process, not a job for life. I know of a couple teachers who were removed from the classroom, so it's not impossible.

I didn't see Oprah. However, as I said over on the teacher board, she drank the charter school kool-aid. It is very easy to think that charters are the answer.

There is a LOT of hedge fund money involved, along with hedge funders who know little about education. They just want an end to unions. Charters have amazing spin/PR machines. This is why many people don't know that:

- most of them don't take kids with special needs, or kids who are ELLs, or they take a percentage that is not comparable to a TPS (traditional public school). This helps their scores look better.

- they require a substantial parent commitment, making them sign contracts, etc. that their child will be in school, be on time, do the work, etc. However, most charters discourage parent associations, and I know of one, Uncommon Schools, that does not allow any parent participation.

- they "counsel out" kids who are struggling, kids who may not score well on the tests. Some charters in NYC turn over up to 30% of kids from year to year. At least one school that boasted a 100% pass/graduation rate got caught transferring kids to the local TPS just prior to the tests.

It is very easy to point to teachers as being the main cause of the problem, along with tenure, etc. Obama's even doing it, which has really disappointed me (but I don't think McCain would have been better.) It's also interesting you seldom hear from an actual teacher about what will improve education in this country. It's always pundits, politicians, media personalities, etc. I'm not saying that we all have a stake- but contrary to what seems to be popular opinion at the moment, most teachers are 1) smart 2) committed to helping kids and 3) in need of a lot more support than we get- from everyone.

Re: What is the point of tenure?

Posted by eddiesmommy

Posted by lilqtny

Today's Oprah was just another attack on teachers. I am sorry, but the principal who was standing and shaking the hands of each child who came off of the bus....sorry but that is BS and I don't think it happens each day.
Also, schools that are funded by Mr. Gates probably have more technology than is even necessary and they also hand select their students......

Then there is a little something I like to call REALITY in NYC BOE. Most classrooms and schools are like mine. 99% free lunch, 100% ELL population, parents are working poor and most can not communicate with us unless we speak Spanish, over crowded classrooms, not enough supplies, and a bunch of DAMN GOOD TEACHERS WHO ARE WILLING TO WORK THEIR A$$ES OFF IN SOMEWHAT MISERABLE CONDITIONS BECAUSE WE CARE!

I would have loved to be in that audience. Oh and I love how she gave them more money when there are schools like mine who IMPROVED state scores under the new more difficult standards despite all of our obstacles who can not afford to buy enough notebooks for all of our students

I didnt get that from it at all. Yes, it called out the bad teachers, and they even specifically said that NONE OF THE SHOW was aimed or intended for the good/great teachers out there. No one was talking about you then.

It was also about the system in general, how we are falling behind, it was about charter schools and public schools. It was about how the system was flawed and IT IS.

Just bc you think it cant happen, doesnt mean it dsn soesnt, in regards to the principal. Why CANT someone be that committed? Why not hope that it does actually happen and applaud the effort, even if its one day a month that she does it, instead of calling it BS?

Anyway, I was just curious about the tenure process.

Re: What is the point of tenure?

Re: What is the point of tenure?

I think the issue lies in what makes a good teacher vs. bad teacher? It is so subjective.

One child could love a teacher while another student hates her. One teacher could have a great relationship with parents, yet not really be an effective teacher. A teacher could have terrible test scores, but be teaching ELL, Special Education students or students that rarely do work or come to school. An honors teacher can have great test scores, but that is because she has students who are motivated.

I think that is where people jump on this non-tenure bandwagon. It is a safeguard and the problem with terminating "bad" teachers is really identifying what makes them bad. Overall, I don't think that there are as many "bad" teachers as the media tries to portray.

I don't think that the education system is the only thing failing our students. It is the breakdown of the family structure. Most of the places where schools are "failing" are in large cities with large low income areas. Eduation is not the priority at home and now it is the school systems responsibiliy to pick up the slack. Most schools on LI are not failing and there is a reason for it. Parents value education and want to send their children to a good school.

Re: What is the point of tenure?

Re: What is the point of tenure?

Posted by eddiesmommy

Posted by lilqtny

Today's Oprah was just another attack on teachers. I am sorry, but the principal who was standing and shaking the hands of each child who came off of the bus....sorry but that is BS and I don't think it happens each day.
Also, schools that are funded by Mr. Gates probably have more technology than is even necessary and they also hand select their students......

Then there is a little something I like to call REALITY in NYC BOE. Most classrooms and schools are like mine. 99% free lunch, 100% ELL population, parents are working poor and most can not communicate with us unless we speak Spanish, over crowded classrooms, not enough supplies, and a bunch of DAMN GOOD TEACHERS WHO ARE WILLING TO WORK THEIR A$$ES OFF IN SOMEWHAT MISERABLE CONDITIONS BECAUSE WE CARE!


I would have loved to be in that audience. Oh and I love how she gave them more money when there are schools like mine who IMPROVED state scores under the new more difficult standards despite all of our obstacles who can not afford to buy enough notebooks for all of our students

I didnt get that from it at all. Yes, it called out the bad teachers, and they even specifically said that NONE OF THE SHOW was aimed or intended for the good/great teachers out there. No one was talking about you then.

It was also about the system in general, how we are falling behind, it was about charter schools and public schools. It was about how the system was flawed and IT IS.

Just bc you think it cant happen, doesnt mean it doesnt, in regards to the principal. Why CANT someone be that committed? Why not hope that it does actually happen and applaud the effort, even if its one day a month that she does it, instead of calling it BS?

Anyway, I was just curious about the tenure process.

Message edited 9/20/2010 9:49:51 PM.

Re: What is the point of tenure?

Message edited 9/20/2010 10:02:55 PM.

Re: What is the point of tenure?

I do have to say, I think a lot of us non teachers have trouble understanding it bc we in the untenured professions, we can be fired on whim, are only one phone call away from a client calling and complaining, are on the top of the list when layoffs roll around and they are looking at just salaries and you just become a number, an amount they can save. We can be fired bc of nepotism, we can be fired just bc our boss is an @ss and not bc of how we perform on the job. We can be fired bc how we are evaluated is also subjective. Im not saying one way is right, and one way is wrong, or better or worse, or easier or harder. Im just saying that we maybe have a little harder of a time wrapping our heads around the need for it. For right or wrong.

Re: What is the point of tenure?

Posted by OneOfEach

Posted by eddiesmommy

Posted by sarahbelle

If the administration has evidence that a teacher is neglecting his or her duty, then they can remove the teacher. I don't see that as being hands tied.

I mean tied in the sense that it can take years to go through the process and have a teacher who deserves to be removed, removed. All the while, its the students who ultimately suffer for what I still feel is a flawed policy in some regards, although I do now have a better understand as to other reasons, I had not thought of as to why it is needed.

I can tell you that when I was in hs I was sexually harrassed by a teacher. When my mom approached the school board his tenure did protect him. Long story short he was removed and no longer able to teach in NY but it was after a LONG & HARD fight that I will always be grateful to my mom for!! It is very very tough to remove a teacher. I know firsthand unfortunately I still have tremendous admiration for the good educators out there.

Re: What is the point of tenure?

First of all, lots of us work with the public and could be one crazy parent, or client or customer away from losing our job. However if you have a good track record, why would you lose your job over that "one" crazy parent. If you do a good job and your employer/principal is happy with you, isn't that enough protection? Teachers have a union, does that not give them a level of due process in and of itself?

Here is a good example, there is a teacher in DD's school who is a seemingly very nice man. However, he suffers badly from Parkinsons. He is certainly old enough to retire. I would guess he is in his mid to late 60's. He has become unable to perform his job to the degree that parents and the Principal wants, and the kids deserve. He has been offered an incentive to retire but refuses. He now has an aide in his classroom to help. In the words of the Principal, " her hands are tied". So many parents request that their kids NOT be in his class that the other classes in the grade are jam packed and he has a smaller class. The kids that wind up in his class are the kids whose parents are totally uninvloved or don't speak english. It just does not seem right to me. And don't get me wrong, I feel terribly for this man and I am not even opposed to keeping him, but not in a classroom setting. But he is untouchable. Why, if the kids are suffering?

Re: What is the point of tenure?

I teach in the city but not FOR the city. I am un-tenured, not unionized and can be fired at will.

I am also not a fan of tenure either and its not because I don't have it. I am a 15 year veteran teacher in one of the most difficult settings one could EVER imagine. I hold myself accountable for my own performance and YES I have been blamed for kids not being able to read. I have been blamed for behaviors and all sorts of things and I'd get fired on the spot if any one of them were founded.

In my years as a student there were plenty of teachers I can recall who had no business being in the classroom as long as they were.

I can also say with 100% certainty, that NYC DOE teachers (of which I am NOT) ARE HELD ACCOUNTABLE for their performance and whether tenured or not CAN and ARE terminated. A principal can render a teacher as unsatisfactory. If that happens twice, the teacher is mentored and if that doesn't make a difference, a teacher can be terminated. It is a section of education law that deals with arbitration to determine whether a teacher stays or goes. State Education Law 3020 a.

Message edited 9/20/2010 10:20:31 PM.

Re: What is the point of tenure?

Re: What is the point of tenure?

Re: What is the point of tenure?

Re: What is the point of tenure?