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Would you send your child to school
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Mrs213
????????
Member since 2/09 18986 total posts
Name:
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Re: Would you send your child to school
YES!!
They are going to daycare full time now. Might as well go to school!
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Posted 7/9/20 7:34 PM  |
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Long Island Weddings
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FirstMate
My lil cowboy
Member since 10/10 7790 total posts
Name:
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Re: Would you send your child to school
Posted by Naturalmama
My kids are going to school- whether it is open or not.  They can sit on the steps of the school with their backpacks on all day, but they aren't staying home. 
I'm with you!
In all seriousness, yes, I would send them back. I'm not 100% comfortable but I am far less comfortable with the lack of socialization and learning and all other things school affords them.
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| Posted 7/9/20 7:36 PM |
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LuckyStar
LIF Adult
Member since 7/14 7274 total posts
Name:
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Re: Would you send your child to school
Posted by soontobemommyof2
Posted by BaysideForever
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by BargainMama
Yup! All day, every day. But, I doubt it's happening. Our kids are getting cheated, big time.
And if anyone thinks these Mickey Mouse face masks are really helping, it's all a placebo. They are not medical grade masks. People are wearing bandanas, scarves, socks, tissue paper. You trust that the kids are going to be wearing a medical grade mask to school? If they are not then what's the point of even wearing the mask. Wash your hands, sanitize, be clean. Be done with it. In suffolk county right now, more people probably have a cold. There were 60 new cases last I checked. No reason for school to be closed.
Ding, ding, ding
False sense of security with these thin cotton masks..
I wear it because I have to but I'm not naive to think it's protecting me
How many times do people have to say, it is not about protecting you... it's about protecting others from YOU. its a cooperative endeavor.
I never understood the “we must protect others” by wearing a mask mentality. I’m all for helping ppl but a mask is not gonna help me help others regardless how much the government wants me to believe. If they really want all of us to help others, why not put emphasis and work to teach everyone how to take better care of themselves, their immune systems, how to better their health and eating habits. U don’t need a lot of money to be able to stock ur fridge with healthier food. Why not teach our kids in school how to better sustain a healthy lifestyle and it starts with what we put in our mouths. I remember a while ago there was a teacher (I believe in the Bronx?) that started a project with his students about growing their own food using simple, easy-to-find things like plastic bottles, soil, seeds from fruits or vegetable roots. I believe his project started with the intention of keeping kids out of the streets but his project grew much bigger, he didn’t only achieve his initial goal but was also able to teach his students healthy eating habits, and how to be self sufficient with their own food. Now if the government’s intentions were really to protect its people, why not teach them how to improve their lives so the risk of getting sick lowers instead of mandating everyone to wear stupids masks that don’t do crap!
But a mask IS going to help you help others. I don't know where you're getting this anti-mask information from, but it is false. Masks help. There is no debate here.
While perhaps this gardening project is noble, it's not going to help curb a raging pandemic.
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| Posted 7/9/20 8:52 PM |
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RainyDay
LIF Adult
Member since 6/15 3990 total posts
Name:
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Re: Would you send your child to school
Posted by LuckyStar
But a mask IS going to help you help others. I don't know where you're getting this anti-mask information from, but it is false. Masks help. There is no debate here.
While perhaps this gardening project is noble, it's not going to help curb a raging pandemic.
Why do medical staff wear masks if they aren't protecting people? Like if they are of no use at all then why do they even exist? (Not necessarily directed at you LuckyStar)
Message edited 7/9/2020 9:27:13 PM.
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| Posted 7/9/20 9:26 PM |
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ElizaRags35
My 2 Girls
Member since 2/09 20494 total posts
Name:
Me
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Would you send your child to school
As long as safety measures are in place and numbers continue to improve as they have been, I’ll be sending my kids if schools are open.
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| Posted 7/9/20 9:55 PM |
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LuckyStar
LIF Adult
Member since 7/14 7274 total posts
Name:
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Re: Would you send your child to school
Posted by RainyDay
Posted by LuckyStar
But a mask IS going to help you help others. I don't know where you're getting this anti-mask information from, but it is false. Masks help. There is no debate here.
While perhaps this gardening project is noble, it's not going to help curb a raging pandemic.
Why do medical staff wear masks if they aren't protecting people? Like if they are of no use at all then why do they even exist? (Not necessarily directed at you LuckyStar)
I'm defending the masks
Masks work. I honestly don't understand why this is so difficult for so many people to comprehend.
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| Posted 7/9/20 10:08 PM |
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ElizaRags35
My 2 Girls
Member since 2/09 20494 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: Would you send your child to school
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by RainyDay
Posted by LuckyStar
But a mask IS going to help you help others. I don't know where you're getting this anti-mask information from, but it is false. Masks help. There is no debate here.
While perhaps this gardening project is noble, it's not going to help curb a raging pandemic.
Why do medical staff wear masks if they aren't protecting people? Like if they are of no use at all then why do they even exist? (Not necessarily directed at you LuckyStar)
I'm defending the masks
Masks work. I honestly don't understand why this is so difficult for so many people to comprehend.
Because people tend to cherry pick information that fits their narrative And they’re selfish.
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| Posted 7/9/20 10:20 PM |
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drpepper318
MIR MIR MIR!
Member since 6/07 8274 total posts
Name:
me
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Re: Would you send your child to school
No.
I was happy to see that we can choose remote learning full time. Surprisingly my kids did really well with it and I was able to teach them at a quicker pace & cover more material faster than in school, where they typically move through units very slowly. It made me want to homeschool forever.
Sadly, we are not going to both be able to work anymore, which sucks, but we wouldn’t both be able to work even with the hybrid partial in-school model either. I don’t have anyone who would watch my kids on their off days or pick them up/ drop them off in the middle of the day. So one of us would have to quit anyway. We are screwed no matter what, unless everything went back to the old normal, which isn’t happening realistically. I hope we can manage, but I’m not so confident.
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| Posted 7/9/20 10:21 PM |
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JennP
LIF Adult
Member since 10/06 3986 total posts
Name:
Jenn
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Re: Would you send your child to school
OMG. I just came on here to say that I will send my child to school - not that I have a choice but the idea my district was tossing around wasn't terrible - and I see we are debating the efficacy of masks???
This is absurd.
Masks block the transmissions of droplets and aerosols. They literally keep that shit from flying about.
The science is clear.
Part of the hesitation in the beginning was that there was concern about there being enough masks for essential workers plus there were questions about the prevalence of the virus. Those have both been put to rest.
Masks help. End of story.
Look at the states who have required masks versus those who haven't and what has happened to their numbers over the last few months.
Are they perfect? No. Are some flimsy? Sure. Are there people walking around with knitted or crocheted masks that will do shit? Yes. (I saw one the other day. SMH.)
Fruits and vegetables are obviously great and I wouldn't be surprised if the US had a higher death rate because of our lousy diets. But fruits and vegetables can help us with THE NEXT pandemic because we don't have time for that right now. We need to take measures that will yield a more immediate effect.
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| Posted 7/9/20 10:26 PM |
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RainyDay
LIF Adult
Member since 6/15 3990 total posts
Name:
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Re: Would you send your child to school
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by RainyDay
Posted by LuckyStar
But a mask IS going to help you help others. I don't know where you're getting this anti-mask information from, but it is false. Masks help. There is no debate here.
While perhaps this gardening project is noble, it's not going to help curb a raging pandemic.
Why do medical staff wear masks if they aren't protecting people? Like if they are of no use at all then why do they even exist? (Not necessarily directed at you LuckyStar)
I'm defending the masks
Masks work. I honestly don't understand why this is so difficult for so many people to comprehend.
I just don't understand the purpose of medical staff wearings masks if they serve no purpose. So I just don't buy into this belief that they aren't stopping some transmission.
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| Posted 7/9/20 10:27 PM |
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LuckyStar
LIF Adult
Member since 7/14 7274 total posts
Name:
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Re: Would you send your child to school
Posted by RainyDay
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by RainyDay
Posted by LuckyStar
But a mask IS going to help you help others. I don't know where you're getting this anti-mask information from, but it is false. Masks help. There is no debate here.
While perhaps this gardening project is noble, it's not going to help curb a raging pandemic.
Why do medical staff wear masks if they aren't protecting people? Like if they are of no use at all then why do they even exist? (Not necessarily directed at you LuckyStar)
I'm defending the masks
Masks work. I honestly don't understand why this is so difficult for so many people to comprehend.
I just don't understand the purpose of medical staff wearings masks if they serve no purpose. So I just don't buy into this belief that they aren't stopping some transmission.
I think part of the problem is that it’s elected officials requiring them and there’s this (not entirely misplaced) distrust of the government. But not everyone has the capacity to digest the information while also realizing that the government is just the messenger. The science shows that masks are working. Who says it doesn’t change the validity of the statement.
Now in terms of school, I’ve yet to see a compelling reason why camps can open but schools cannot. All the expert opinions I’ve encountered are that the benefit of school outweighs the relatively small risk of infection (provided proper precautions are put into place).
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| Posted 7/9/20 10:46 PM |
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RainyDay
LIF Adult
Member since 6/15 3990 total posts
Name:
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Re: Would you send your child to school
I am assuming because camp is outside and its easier to socially distance. Honestly most of the camps where we live didn't even open this year because there are to many risks and they couldn't accommodate the guidelines. The ones that did open all said no camp on days it rains so I would assume that would cause a big issue for working parents.
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| Posted 7/10/20 6:28 AM |
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soontobemommyof2
My boys...my everything <3
Member since 4/15 3635 total posts
Name:
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Re: Would you send your child to school
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by soontobemommyof2
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by BargainMama
Yup! All day, every day. But, I doubt it's happening. Our kids are getting cheated, big time.
And if anyone thinks these Mickey Mouse face masks are really helping, it's all a placebo. They are not medical grade masks. People are wearing bandanas, scarves, socks, tissue paper. You trust that the kids are going to be wearing a medical grade mask to school? If they are not then what's the point of even wearing the mask. Wash your hands, sanitize, be clean. Be done with it. In suffolk county right now, more people probably have a cold. There were 60 new cases last I checked. No reason for school to be closed.
Ding, ding, ding
False sense of security with these thin cotton masks..
I wear it because I have to but I'm not naive to think it's protecting me
Properly worn masks do work. They contain the spread of droplets, which is how the virus is spread. They're finding that the virus does not live on surfaces as long as they initially thought. That doesn't mean we should all be running around with unwashed hands, but masks are the best defense at present.
Covid particles are minuscule and can without much effort go through the small openings in a mask.
The masks limit the amount of particles that enter the air. Everyone wearing masks reduces the amount of airborne virus in the environment.
ETA:
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/stanford-scientists-contribute-to-who-mask-guidelines.html
Thanks for sharing those links. I read them and noticed some interesting points. From the ones I can recall...
One article says that in those countries where wearing masks is a cultural custom, the numbers of infections and deaths were much lower. Isn’t a custom to wear masks in China? And they seem to have had one of the highest (if not the highest) numbers of cases and deaths.
The other articles says that when ppl talk, cough or sneeze, they can still spread the virus to others in the form of respiratory droplets expelled into the air. Those droplets then evaporate into fine particles that may linger. But didn’t some studies also point out that the spores don’t survive much longer in the air and on surfaces (not in the body)? But if the person wears a mask, the mask would partially trap them and the spores would then linger in the membranes of our nose and mouth? There was also a part in the article that says it doesn’t really matter if the person is already sick with covid and this is because the person can’t get sicker but wouldn’t the sickness then last longer because the body is unable to expel them properly? I have to also mention that I’ve read other articles saying the spores can live up to 30+ hrs so the info is very contradicting and not definite.
It also mentions 2 instances where 2 ppl where sick with covid but because they were wearing a mask, none of the ppl (like 140 ppl or something like that) that they became in close contact with, got infected. One a hairdresser, I can’t remember the other one. None of those ppl got sick? Not even one? I’m having trouble believing this one considering the 2 ppl had an active infection, they were in very close proximity to many, many ppl, and only depended on a mask that do not even provide complete protection. Also what is this article suggesting? That it’s ok if ppl with an active case of covid be out and about among healthy ppl because just like in these 2 cases, ppl won’t get sick? That’s a pretty irresponsible and dangerous suggestion.
One of the articles also said that contrary to ppl’s experiences, a person touches his face less when wearing a mask. Definitely not my experience and many other ppl I know. I find myself always adjusting it, moving it cause I might get itchy or it might be causing irritation, or too tight, it’s always something and it happens when I don’t even realize it. Now imagine how many more times this happens with young kids.
Also about being harmful, who truly knows with certainty about this. But from my own experience I can tell u that wearing a mask for a good amount of time have made me experience massive headaches, can it be because of decreased oxygen intake? Who knows. And what about the build up of anxiety? I’ve also experienced that to the point of feeling like being in the border of having a panic attack. It’s a very scary feeling to have. All of these can’t be good signs right?
They also say that not every single person need to wear a mask to see a significance in spreading the virus. Well then at least this gives room for those that really can’t wear them.
Look I’m not saying ppl should not wear masks. I’ve said it before and I’m gonna say it again, a person has all the right in the world to wear masks if that’s what they wish for. It does bother though when ppl start policing others about wearing a mask. I was at the park the other day with my kids and a woman was sitting in her car for over an hour watching me and another family that was also in the park. She got out of the car and started questioning why we didn’t have a mask and demanding we put one on even though we were at an open place and we were not close to each other. She then called the police to complain about us, the officer came and literally repeated the same thing we told her. For some weird reason ppl have this extreme belief in the full protection of a mask which it’s not accurate.
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| Posted 7/10/20 10:51 AM |
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LuckyStar
LIF Adult
Member since 7/14 7274 total posts
Name:
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Re: Would you send your child to school
Posted by soontobemommyof2
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by soontobemommyof2
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by BargainMama
Yup! All day, every day. But, I doubt it's happening. Our kids are getting cheated, big time.
And if anyone thinks these Mickey Mouse face masks are really helping, it's all a placebo. They are not medical grade masks. People are wearing bandanas, scarves, socks, tissue paper. You trust that the kids are going to be wearing a medical grade mask to school? If they are not then what's the point of even wearing the mask. Wash your hands, sanitize, be clean. Be done with it. In suffolk county right now, more people probably have a cold. There were 60 new cases last I checked. No reason for school to be closed.
Ding, ding, ding
False sense of security with these thin cotton masks..
I wear it because I have to but I'm not naive to think it's protecting me
Properly worn masks do work. They contain the spread of droplets, which is how the virus is spread. They're finding that the virus does not live on surfaces as long as they initially thought. That doesn't mean we should all be running around with unwashed hands, but masks are the best defense at present.
Covid particles are minuscule and can without much effort go through the small openings in a mask.
The masks limit the amount of particles that enter the air. Everyone wearing masks reduces the amount of airborne virus in the environment.
ETA:
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/stanford-scientists-contribute-to-who-mask-guidelines.html
Thanks for sharing those links. I read them and noticed some interesting points. From the ones I can recall...
One article says that in those countries where wearing masks is a cultural custom, the numbers of infections and deaths were much lower. Isn’t a custom to wear masks in China? And they seem to have had one of the highest (if not the highest) numbers of cases and deaths.
The other articles says that when ppl talk, cough or sneeze, they can still spread the virus to others in the form of respiratory droplets expelled into the air. Those droplets then evaporate into fine particles that may linger. But didn’t some studies also point out that the spores don’t survive much longer in the air and on surfaces (not in the body)? But if the person wears a mask, the mask would partially trap them and the spores would then linger in the membranes of our nose and mouth? There was also a part in the article that says it doesn’t really matter if the person is already sick with covid and this is because the person can’t get sicker but wouldn’t the sickness then last longer because the body is unable to expel them properly? I have to also mention that I’ve read other articles saying the spores can live up to 30+ hrs so the info is very contradicting and not definite.
It also mentions 2 instances where 2 ppl where sick with covid but because they were wearing a mask, none of the ppl (like 140 ppl or something like that) that they became in close contact with, got infected. One a hairdresser, I can’t remember the other one. None of those ppl got sick? Not even one? I’m having trouble believing this one considering the 2 ppl had an active infection, they were in very close proximity to many, many ppl, and only depended on a mask that do not even provide complete protection. Also what is this article suggesting? That it’s ok if ppl with an active case of covid be out and about among healthy ppl because just like in these 2 cases, ppl won’t get sick? That’s a pretty irresponsible and dangerous suggestion.
One of the articles also said that contrary to ppl’s experiences, a person touches his face less when wearing a mask. Definitely not my experience and many other ppl I know. I find myself always adjusting it, moving it cause I might get itchy or it might be causing irritation, or too tight, it’s always something and it happens when I don’t even realize it. Now imagine how many more times this happens with young kids.
Also about being harmful, who truly knows with certainty about this. But from my own experience I can tell u that wearing a mask for a good amount of time have made me experience massive headaches, can it be because of decreased oxygen intake? Who knows. And what about the build up of anxiety? I’ve also experienced that to the point of feeling like being in the border of having a panic attack. It’s a very scary feeling to have. All of these can’t be good signs right?
They also say that not every single person need to wear a mask to see a significance in spreading the virus. Well then at least this gives room for those that really can’t wear them.
Look I’m not saying ppl should not wear masks. I’ve said it before and I’m gonna say it again, a person has all the right in the world to wear masks if that’s what they wish for. It does bother though when ppl start policing others about wearing a mask. I was at the park the other day with my kids and a woman was sitting in her car for over an hour watching me and another family that was also in the park. She got out of the car and started questioning why we didn’t have a mask and demanding we put one on even though we were at an open place and we were not close to each other. She then called the police to complain about us, the officer came and literally repeated the same thing we told her. For some weird reason ppl have this extreme belief in the full protection of a mask which it’s not accurate.
1. China is the most populous country in the world. More people, more deaths.
2. No, a sick person wouldn't be sicker longer because they're wearing a mask.
3. Long term effects of wearing a mask? Healthcare professionals wear them day in and day out.
Everyone needs to wear a mask to protect others. We have a global responsibility to not only protect ourselves but other humans. If people can't do that then there should be consequences.
No mask, no stores.
No vaccines, no school.
Global responsibility. If you can't assume the responsibility then you cannot be an active member of society.
Message edited 7/10/2020 11:15:53 AM.
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| Posted 7/10/20 11:14 AM |
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soontobemommyof2
My boys...my everything <3
Member since 4/15 3635 total posts
Name:
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Re: Would you send your child to school
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by soontobemommyof2
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by soontobemommyof2
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by BargainMama
Yup! All day, every day. But, I doubt it's happening. Our kids are getting cheated, big time.
And if anyone thinks these Mickey Mouse face masks are really helping, it's all a placebo. They are not medical grade masks. People are wearing bandanas, scarves, socks, tissue paper. You trust that the kids are going to be wearing a medical grade mask to school? If they are not then what's the point of even wearing the mask. Wash your hands, sanitize, be clean. Be done with it. In suffolk county right now, more people probably have a cold. There were 60 new cases last I checked. No reason for school to be closed.
Ding, ding, ding
False sense of security with these thin cotton masks..
I wear it because I have to but I'm not naive to think it's protecting me
Properly worn masks do work. They contain the spread of droplets, which is how the virus is spread. They're finding that the virus does not live on surfaces as long as they initially thought. That doesn't mean we should all be running around with unwashed hands, but masks are the best defense at present.
Covid particles are minuscule and can without much effort go through the small openings in a mask.
The masks limit the amount of particles that enter the air. Everyone wearing masks reduces the amount of airborne virus in the environment.
ETA:
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/stanford-scientists-contribute-to-who-mask-guidelines.html
Thanks for sharing those links. I read them and noticed some interesting points. From the ones I can recall...
One article says that in those countries where wearing masks is a cultural custom, the numbers of infections and deaths were much lower. Isn’t a custom to wear masks in China? And they seem to have had one of the highest (if not the highest) numbers of cases and deaths.
The other articles says that when ppl talk, cough or sneeze, they can still spread the virus to others in the form of respiratory droplets expelled into the air. Those droplets then evaporate into fine particles that may linger. But didn’t some studies also point out that the spores don’t survive much longer in the air and on surfaces (not in the body)? But if the person wears a mask, the mask would partially trap them and the spores would then linger in the membranes of our nose and mouth? There was also a part in the article that says it doesn’t really matter if the person is already sick with covid and this is because the person can’t get sicker but wouldn’t the sickness then last longer because the body is unable to expel them properly? I have to also mention that I’ve read other articles saying the spores can live up to 30+ hrs so the info is very contradicting and not definite.
It also mentions 2 instances where 2 ppl where sick with covid but because they were wearing a mask, none of the ppl (like 140 ppl or something like that) that they became in close contact with, got infected. One a hairdresser, I can’t remember the other one. None of those ppl got sick? Not even one? I’m having trouble believing this one considering the 2 ppl had an active infection, they were in very close proximity to many, many ppl, and only depended on a mask that do not even provide complete protection. Also what is this article suggesting? That it’s ok if ppl with an active case of covid be out and about among healthy ppl because just like in these 2 cases, ppl won’t get sick? That’s a pretty irresponsible and dangerous suggestion.
One of the articles also said that contrary to ppl’s experiences, a person touches his face less when wearing a mask. Definitely not my experience and many other ppl I know. I find myself always adjusting it, moving it cause I might get itchy or it might be causing irritation, or too tight, it’s always something and it happens when I don’t even realize it. Now imagine how many more times this happens with young kids.
Also about being harmful, who truly knows with certainty about this. But from my own experience I can tell u that wearing a mask for a good amount of time have made me experience massive headaches, can it be because of decreased oxygen intake? Who knows. And what about the build up of anxiety? I’ve also experienced that to the point of feeling like being in the border of having a panic attack. It’s a very scary feeling to have. All of these can’t be good signs right?
They also say that not every single person need to wear a mask to see a significance in spreading the virus. Well then at least this gives room for those that really can’t wear them.
Look I’m not saying ppl should not wear masks. I’ve said it before and I’m gonna say it again, a person has all the right in the world to wear masks if that’s what they wish for. It does bother though when ppl start policing others about wearing a mask. I was at the park the other day with my kids and a woman was sitting in her car for over an hour watching me and another family that was also in the park. She got out of the car and started questioning why we didn’t have a mask and demanding we put one on even though we were at an open place and we were not close to each other. She then called the police to complain about us, the officer came and literally repeated the same thing we told her. For some weird reason ppl have this extreme belief in the full protection of a mask which it’s not accurate.
1. China is the most populous country in the world. More people, more deaths.
2. No, a sick person wouldn't be sicker longer because they're wearing a mask.
3. Long term effects of wearing a mask? Healthcare professionals wear them day in and day out.
Everyone needs to wear a mask to protect others. We have a global responsibility to not only protect ourselves but other humans. If people can't do that then there should be consequences.
No mask, no stores.
No vaccines, no school.
Global responsibility. If you can't assume the responsibility then you cannot be an active member of society.
Healthcare professionals do not wear the same masks that a regular person does. And even then, have u seen that video circulating a few weeks ago that shows so many doctors and nurses wearing masks for prolonged amount of hrs? What it does to their faces? Can’t even imagine what’s going within their bodies. Yes, we should be able to help one another in finding better ways for having a healthier living, without a doubt! It’s human nature to want to help others but it should not be ingrained as a responsibility. How can I make it my responsibility to help those that won’t even help themselves but solely depend on a mask to provide full protection instead of primarily caring for their health?? And even the article u shared says that not *everyone* needs to wear a mask to slow down the spread of the virus. Again not my words, but the article u cited.
Message edited 7/10/2020 11:44:09 AM.
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| Posted 7/10/20 11:41 AM |
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seaside
LIF Adult
Member since 6/08 3101 total posts
Name:
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Re: Would you send your child to school
1. China is the most populous country in the world. More people, more deaths.
2. No, a sick person wouldn't be sicker longer because they're wearing a mask.
3. Long term effects of wearing a mask? Healthcare professionals wear them day in and day out.
Everyone needs to wear a mask to protect others. We have a global responsibility to not only protect ourselves but other humans. If people can't do that then there should be consequences.
No mask, no stores.
No vaccines, no school.
Global responsibility. If you can't assume the responsibility then you cannot be an active member of society.
Thank. YOU.
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| Posted 7/10/20 12:10 PM |
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PitterPatter11
Baby Boy is Here!
Member since 5/11 7619 total posts
Name:
Momma <3
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Re: Would you send your child to school
Posted by seaside
1. China is the most populous country in the world. More people, more deaths.
2. No, a sick person wouldn't be sicker longer because they're wearing a mask.
3. Long term effects of wearing a mask? Healthcare professionals wear them day in and day out.
Everyone needs to wear a mask to protect others. We have a global responsibility to not only protect ourselves but other humans. If people can't do that then there should be consequences.
No mask, no stores.
No vaccines, no school.
Global responsibility. If you can't assume the responsibility then you cannot be an active member of society.
Thank. YOU.
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| Posted 7/10/20 12:25 PM |
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Re: Would you send your child to school
Posted by LuckyStar
1. China is the most populous country in the world. More people, more deaths.
2. No, a sick person wouldn't be sicker longer because they're wearing a mask.
3. Long term effects of wearing a mask? Healthcare professionals wear them day in and day out.
Everyone needs to wear a mask to protect others. We have a global responsibility to not only protect ourselves but other humans. If people can't do that then there should be consequences.
No mask, no stores.
No vaccines, no school.
Global responsibility. If you can't assume the responsibility then you cannot be an active member of society.
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| Posted 7/10/20 12:36 PM |
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LuckyStar
LIF Adult
Member since 7/14 7274 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Would you send your child to school
Posted by soontobemommyof2
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by soontobemommyof2
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by soontobemommyof2
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by BargainMama
Yup! All day, every day. But, I doubt it's happening. Our kids are getting cheated, big time.
And if anyone thinks these Mickey Mouse face masks are really helping, it's all a placebo. They are not medical grade masks. People are wearing bandanas, scarves, socks, tissue paper. You trust that the kids are going to be wearing a medical grade mask to school? If they are not then what's the point of even wearing the mask. Wash your hands, sanitize, be clean. Be done with it. In suffolk county right now, more people probably have a cold. There were 60 new cases last I checked. No reason for school to be closed.
Ding, ding, ding
False sense of security with these thin cotton masks..
I wear it because I have to but I'm not naive to think it's protecting me
Properly worn masks do work. They contain the spread of droplets, which is how the virus is spread. They're finding that the virus does not live on surfaces as long as they initially thought. That doesn't mean we should all be running around with unwashed hands, but masks are the best defense at present.
Covid particles are minuscule and can without much effort go through the small openings in a mask.
The masks limit the amount of particles that enter the air. Everyone wearing masks reduces the amount of airborne virus in the environment.
ETA:
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/stanford-scientists-contribute-to-who-mask-guidelines.html
Thanks for sharing those links. I read them and noticed some interesting points. From the ones I can recall...
One article says that in those countries where wearing masks is a cultural custom, the numbers of infections and deaths were much lower. Isn’t a custom to wear masks in China? And they seem to have had one of the highest (if not the highest) numbers of cases and deaths.
The other articles says that when ppl talk, cough or sneeze, they can still spread the virus to others in the form of respiratory droplets expelled into the air. Those droplets then evaporate into fine particles that may linger. But didn’t some studies also point out that the spores don’t survive much longer in the air and on surfaces (not in the body)? But if the person wears a mask, the mask would partially trap them and the spores would then linger in the membranes of our nose and mouth? There was also a part in the article that says it doesn’t really matter if the person is already sick with covid and this is because the person can’t get sicker but wouldn’t the sickness then last longer because the body is unable to expel them properly? I have to also mention that I’ve read other articles saying the spores can live up to 30+ hrs so the info is very contradicting and not definite.
It also mentions 2 instances where 2 ppl where sick with covid but because they were wearing a mask, none of the ppl (like 140 ppl or something like that) that they became in close contact with, got infected. One a hairdresser, I can’t remember the other one. None of those ppl got sick? Not even one? I’m having trouble believing this one considering the 2 ppl had an active infection, they were in very close proximity to many, many ppl, and only depended on a mask that do not even provide complete protection. Also what is this article suggesting? That it’s ok if ppl with an active case of covid be out and about among healthy ppl because just like in these 2 cases, ppl won’t get sick? That’s a pretty irresponsible and dangerous suggestion.
One of the articles also said that contrary to ppl’s experiences, a person touches his face less when wearing a mask. Definitely not my experience and many other ppl I know. I find myself always adjusting it, moving it cause I might get itchy or it might be causing irritation, or too tight, it’s always something and it happens when I don’t even realize it. Now imagine how many more times this happens with young kids.
Also about being harmful, who truly knows with certainty about this. But from my own experience I can tell u that wearing a mask for a good amount of time have made me experience massive headaches, can it be because of decreased oxygen intake? Who knows. And what about the build up of anxiety? I’ve also experienced that to the point of feeling like being in the border of having a panic attack. It’s a very scary feeling to have. All of these can’t be good signs right?
They also say that not every single person need to wear a mask to see a significance in spreading the virus. Well then at least this gives room for those that really can’t wear them.
Look I’m not saying ppl should not wear masks. I’ve said it before and I’m gonna say it again, a person has all the right in the world to wear masks if that’s what they wish for. It does bother though when ppl start policing others about wearing a mask. I was at the park the other day with my kids and a woman was sitting in her car for over an hour watching me and another family that was also in the park. She got out of the car and started questioning why we didn’t have a mask and demanding we put one on even though we were at an open place and we were not close to each other. She then called the police to complain about us, the officer came and literally repeated the same thing we told her. For some weird reason ppl have this extreme belief in the full protection of a mask which it’s not accurate.
1. China is the most populous country in the world. More people, more deaths.
2. No, a sick person wouldn't be sicker longer because they're wearing a mask.
3. Long term effects of wearing a mask? Healthcare professionals wear them day in and day out.
Everyone needs to wear a mask to protect others. We have a global responsibility to not only protect ourselves but other humans. If people can't do that then there should be consequences.
No mask, no stores.
No vaccines, no school.
Global responsibility. If you can't assume the responsibility then you cannot be an active member of society.
Healthcare professionals do not wear the same masks that a regular person does. And even then, have u seen that video circulating a few weeks ago that shows so many doctors and nurses wearing masks for prolonged amount of hrs? What it does to their faces? Can’t even imagine what’s going within their bodies. Yes, we should be able to help one another in finding better ways for having a healthier living, without a doubt! It’s human nature to want to help others but it should not be ingrained as a responsibility. How can I make it my responsibility to help those that won’t even help themselves but solely depend on a mask to provide full protection instead of primarily caring for their health?? And even the article u shared says that not *everyone* needs to wear a mask to slow down the spread of the virus. Again not my words, but the article u cited.
Then don't wear the mask and stay out of public places.
You cannot go through life and raise children within a community when you have no consideration for the health and well being of others. You don't get to be a member of society and reap the benefits of a community when you have no regard for the people within the community.
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| Posted 7/10/20 12:54 PM |
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JennP
LIF Adult
Member since 10/06 3986 total posts
Name:
Jenn
|
Re: Would you send your child to school
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by soontobemommyof2
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by soontobemommyof2
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by soontobemommyof2
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by BargainMama
Yup! All day, every day. But, I doubt it's happening. Our kids are getting cheated, big time.
And if anyone thinks these Mickey Mouse face masks are really helping, it's all a placebo. They are not medical grade masks. People are wearing bandanas, scarves, socks, tissue paper. You trust that the kids are going to be wearing a medical grade mask to school? If they are not then what's the point of even wearing the mask. Wash your hands, sanitize, be clean. Be done with it. In suffolk county right now, more people probably have a cold. There were 60 new cases last I checked. No reason for school to be closed.
Ding, ding, ding
False sense of security with these thin cotton masks..
I wear it because I have to but I'm not naive to think it's protecting me
Properly worn masks do work. They contain the spread of droplets, which is how the virus is spread. They're finding that the virus does not live on surfaces as long as they initially thought. That doesn't mean we should all be running around with unwashed hands, but masks are the best defense at present.
Covid particles are minuscule and can without much effort go through the small openings in a mask.
The masks limit the amount of particles that enter the air. Everyone wearing masks reduces the amount of airborne virus in the environment.
ETA:
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/stanford-scientists-contribute-to-who-mask-guidelines.html
Thanks for sharing those links. I read them and noticed some interesting points. From the ones I can recall...
One article says that in those countries where wearing masks is a cultural custom, the numbers of infections and deaths were much lower. Isn’t a custom to wear masks in China? And they seem to have had one of the highest (if not the highest) numbers of cases and deaths.
The other articles says that when ppl talk, cough or sneeze, they can still spread the virus to others in the form of respiratory droplets expelled into the air. Those droplets then evaporate into fine particles that may linger. But didn’t some studies also point out that the spores don’t survive much longer in the air and on surfaces (not in the body)? But if the person wears a mask, the mask would partially trap them and the spores would then linger in the membranes of our nose and mouth? There was also a part in the article that says it doesn’t really matter if the person is already sick with covid and this is because the person can’t get sicker but wouldn’t the sickness then last longer because the body is unable to expel them properly? I have to also mention that I’ve read other articles saying the spores can live up to 30+ hrs so the info is very contradicting and not definite.
It also mentions 2 instances where 2 ppl where sick with covid but because they were wearing a mask, none of the ppl (like 140 ppl or something like that) that they became in close contact with, got infected. One a hairdresser, I can’t remember the other one. None of those ppl got sick? Not even one? I’m having trouble believing this one considering the 2 ppl had an active infection, they were in very close proximity to many, many ppl, and only depended on a mask that do not even provide complete protection. Also what is this article suggesting? That it’s ok if ppl with an active case of covid be out and about among healthy ppl because just like in these 2 cases, ppl won’t get sick? That’s a pretty irresponsible and dangerous suggestion.
One of the articles also said that contrary to ppl’s experiences, a person touches his face less when wearing a mask. Definitely not my experience and many other ppl I know. I find myself always adjusting it, moving it cause I might get itchy or it might be causing irritation, or too tight, it’s always something and it happens when I don’t even realize it. Now imagine how many more times this happens with young kids.
Also about being harmful, who truly knows with certainty about this. But from my own experience I can tell u that wearing a mask for a good amount of time have made me experience massive headaches, can it be because of decreased oxygen intake? Who knows. And what about the build up of anxiety? I’ve also experienced that to the point of feeling like being in the border of having a panic attack. It’s a very scary feeling to have. All of these can’t be good signs right?
They also say that not every single person need to wear a mask to see a significance in spreading the virus. Well then at least this gives room for those that really can’t wear them.
Look I’m not saying ppl should not wear masks. I’ve said it before and I’m gonna say it again, a person has all the right in the world to wear masks if that’s what they wish for. It does bother though when ppl start policing others about wearing a mask. I was at the park the other day with my kids and a woman was sitting in her car for over an hour watching me and another family that was also in the park. She got out of the car and started questioning why we didn’t have a mask and demanding we put one on even though we were at an open place and we were not close to each other. She then called the police to complain about us, the officer came and literally repeated the same thing we told her. For some weird reason ppl have this extreme belief in the full protection of a mask which it’s not accurate.
1. China is the most populous country in the world. More people, more deaths.
2. No, a sick person wouldn't be sicker longer because they're wearing a mask.
3. Long term effects of wearing a mask? Healthcare professionals wear them day in and day out.
Everyone needs to wear a mask to protect others. We have a global responsibility to not only protect ourselves but other humans. If people can't do that then there should be consequences.
No mask, no stores.
No vaccines, no school.
Global responsibility. If you can't assume the responsibility then you cannot be an active member of society.
Healthcare professionals do not wear the same masks that a regular person does. And even then, have u seen that video circulating a few weeks ago that shows so many doctors and nurses wearing masks for prolonged amount of hrs? What it does to their faces? Can’t even imagine what’s going within their bodies. Yes, we should be able to help one another in finding better ways for having a healthier living, without a doubt! It’s human nature to want to help others but it should not be ingrained as a responsibility. How can I make it my responsibility to help those that won’t even help themselves but solely depend on a mask to provide full protection instead of primarily caring for their health?? And even the article u shared says that not *everyone* needs to wear a mask to slow down the spread of the virus. Again not my words, but the article u cited.
Then don't wear the mask and stay out of public places.
You cannot go through life and raise children within a community when you have no consideration for the health and well being of others. You don't get to be a member of society and reap the benefits of a community when you have no regard for the people within the community.
QP - OMG. Are you implying that you shouldn't wear a mask because people don't eat enough fruits and vegetables? Are you seriously comparing the ravages of a pandemic to the effects of a poor diet?
You are an incredibly selfish human being.
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| Posted 7/10/20 3:26 PM |
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soontobemommyof2
My boys...my everything <3
Member since 4/15 3635 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Would you send your child to school
Posted by JennP
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by soontobemommyof2
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by soontobemommyof2
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by soontobemommyof2
Posted by LuckyStar
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by BargainMama
Yup! All day, every day. But, I doubt it's happening. Our kids are getting cheated, big time.
And if anyone thinks these Mickey Mouse face masks are really helping, it's all a placebo. They are not medical grade masks. People are wearing bandanas, scarves, socks, tissue paper. You trust that the kids are going to be wearing a medical grade mask to school? If they are not then what's the point of even wearing the mask. Wash your hands, sanitize, be clean. Be done with it. In suffolk county right now, more people probably have a cold. There were 60 new cases last I checked. No reason for school to be closed.
Ding, ding, ding
False sense of security with these thin cotton masks..
I wear it because I have to but I'm not naive to think it's protecting me
Properly worn masks do work. They contain the spread of droplets, which is how the virus is spread. They're finding that the virus does not live on surfaces as long as they initially thought. That doesn't mean we should all be running around with unwashed hands, but masks are the best defense at present.
Covid particles are minuscule and can without much effort go through the small openings in a mask.
The masks limit the amount of particles that enter the air. Everyone wearing masks reduces the amount of airborne virus in the environment.
ETA:
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/stanford-scientists-contribute-to-who-mask-guidelines.html
Thanks for sharing those links. I read them and noticed some interesting points. From the ones I can recall...
One article says that in those countries where wearing masks is a cultural custom, the numbers of infections and deaths were much lower. Isn’t a custom to wear masks in China? And they seem to have had one of the highest (if not the highest) numbers of cases and deaths.
The other articles says that when ppl talk, cough or sneeze, they can still spread the virus to others in the form of respiratory droplets expelled into the air. Those droplets then evaporate into fine particles that may linger. But didn’t some studies also point out that the spores don’t survive much longer in the air and on surfaces (not in the body)? But if the person wears a mask, the mask would partially trap them and the spores would then linger in the membranes of our nose and mouth? There was also a part in the article that says it doesn’t really matter if the person is already sick with covid and this is because the person can’t get sicker but wouldn’t the sickness then last longer because the body is unable to expel them properly? I have to also mention that I’ve read other articles saying the spores can live up to 30+ hrs so the info is very contradicting and not definite.
It also mentions 2 instances where 2 ppl where sick with covid but because they were wearing a mask, none of the ppl (like 140 ppl or something like that) that they became in close contact with, got infected. One a hairdresser, I can’t remember the other one. None of those ppl got sick? Not even one? I’m having trouble believing this one considering the 2 ppl had an active infection, they were in very close proximity to many, many ppl, and only depended on a mask that do not even provide complete protection. Also what is this article suggesting? That it’s ok if ppl with an active case of covid be out and about among healthy ppl because just like in these 2 cases, ppl won’t get sick? That’s a pretty irresponsible and dangerous suggestion.
One of the articles also said that contrary to ppl’s experiences, a person touches his face less when wearing a mask. Definitely not my experience and many other ppl I know. I find myself always adjusting it, moving it cause I might get itchy or it might be causing irritation, or too tight, it’s always something and it happens when I don’t even realize it. Now imagine how many more times this happens with young kids.
Also about being harmful, who truly knows with certainty about this. But from my own experience I can tell u that wearing a mask for a good amount of time have made me experience massive headaches, can it be because of decreased oxygen intake? Who knows. And what about the build up of anxiety? I’ve also experienced that to the point of feeling like being in the border of having a panic attack. It’s a very scary feeling to have. All of these can’t be good signs right?
They also say that not every single person need to wear a mask to see a significance in spreading the virus. Well then at least this gives room for those that really can’t wear them.
Look I’m not saying ppl should not wear masks. I’ve said it before and I’m gonna say it again, a person has all the right in the world to wear masks if that’s what they wish for. It does bother though when ppl start policing others about wearing a mask. I was at the park the other day with my kids and a woman was sitting in her car for over an hour watching me and another family that was also in the park. She got out of the car and started questioning why we didn’t have a mask and demanding we put one on even though we were at an open place and we were not close to each other. She then called the police to complain about us, the officer came and literally repeated the same thing we told her. For some weird reason ppl have this extreme belief in the full protection of a mask which it’s not accurate.
1. China is the most populous country in the world. More people, more deaths.
2. No, a sick person wouldn't be sicker longer because they're wearing a mask.
3. Long term effects of wearing a mask? Healthcare professionals wear them day in and day out.
Everyone needs to wear a mask to protect others. We have a global responsibility to not only protect ourselves but other humans. If people can't do that then there should be consequences.
No mask, no stores.
No vaccines, no school.
Global responsibility. If you can't assume the responsibility then you cannot be an active member of society.
Healthcare professionals do not wear the same masks that a regular person does. And even then, have u seen that video circulating a few weeks ago that shows so many doctors and nurses wearing masks for prolonged amount of hrs? What it does to their faces? Can’t even imagine what’s going within their bodies. Yes, we should be able to help one another in finding better ways for having a healthier living, without a doubt! It’s human nature to want to help others but it should not be ingrained as a responsibility. How can I make it my responsibility to help those that won’t even help themselves but solely depend on a mask to provide full protection instead of primarily caring for their health?? And even the article u shared says that not *everyone* needs to wear a mask to slow down the spread of the virus. Again not my words, but the article u cited.
Then don't wear the mask and stay out of public places.
You cannot go through life and raise children within a community when you have no consideration for the health and well being of others. You don't get to be a member of society and reap the benefits of a community when you have no regard for the people within the community.
QP - OMG. Are you implying that you shouldn't wear a mask because people don't eat enough fruits and vegetables? Are you seriously comparing the ravages of a pandemic to the effects of a poor diet?
You are an incredibly selfish human being.
Omg Jenn u’re known for labeling ppl whatever way u want...selfish, racist, ignorant, etc. So I’m not even gonna go there with u. Not worth my energy. Do u want answers for ur loaded, sarcastic questions? Go read my comments again. They’re not that difficult to understand and I’m sure u’re smart enough to comprehend what I meant.
LuckyStar, I don’t equate being considerate for the health and well being of others with wearing a mask. I wear a mask if I have to but I’m well aware of the lack of efficacy of it and how much it can really protect others. I am considerate for the health of others and help in more meaningful and substantial ways where I know it will make a bigger impact. But hey, thank u for the suggestion! 
Message edited 7/10/2020 3:52:49 PM.
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| Posted 7/10/20 3:51 PM |
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PitterPatter11
Baby Boy is Here!
Member since 5/11 7619 total posts
Name:
Momma <3
|
Re: Would you send your child to school
Posted by soontobemommyof2
LuckyStar, I don’t equate being considerate for the health and well being of others with wearing a mask. I wear a mask if I have to but I’m well aware of the lack of efficacy of it and how much it can really protect others. I am considerate for the health of others and help in more meaningful and substantial ways where I know it will make a bigger impact. But hey, thank u for the suggestion!
Why do you think masks don't work? The masks trap the vectors (your spit and mucus) so it can not enter the air and infect other people. Think about when someone doesn't cover their nose or mouth when they cough/sneeze and you literally see snot and spit everywhere. A mask will keep those vectors from entering the air thereby limiting the spread of the disease. FACT.
For this pandemic, the biggest way you can personally help others to not get the disease is by wearing a mask. Eating healthy and exercising are great - trust me I am a fitness nut, but I also understand that America is not going to reduce the incidence of diabetes, hypertension, high cholesterol and obesity by tomorrow to help mitigate this pandemic.
Message edited 7/10/2020 4:59:43 PM.
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| Posted 7/10/20 4:58 PM |
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Katareen
5,000 Posts!
Member since 4/10 7180 total posts
Name:
Katherine
|
Re: Would you send your child to school
Posted by PitterPatter11
Posted by soontobemommyof2
LuckyStar, I don’t equate being considerate for the health and well being of others with wearing a mask. I wear a mask if I have to but I’m well aware of the lack of efficacy of it and how much it can really protect others. I am considerate for the health of others and help in more meaningful and substantial ways where I know it will make a bigger impact. But hey, thank u for the suggestion!
Why do you think masks don't work? The masks trap the vectors (your spit and mucus) so it can not enter the air and infect other people. Think about when someone doesn't cover their nose or mouth when they cough/sneeze and you literally see snot and spit everywhere. A mask will keep those vectors from entering the air thereby limiting the spread of the disease. FACT.
For this pandemic, the biggest way you can personally help others to not get the disease is by wearing a mask. Eating healthy and exercising are great - trust me I am a fitness nut, but I also understand that America is not going to reduce the incidence of diabetes, hypertension, high cholesterol and obesity by tomorrow to help mitigate this pandemic.
If masks don’t help, then how did New York go from being the global epicenter to one of the safest places to be? It seems obvious to me that it’s because of the mask mandates that were in place.
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| Posted 7/10/20 6:51 PM |
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Kate
*****
Member since 5/05 7557 total posts
Name:
Kate
|
Re: Would you send your child to school
Posted by Katareen
Posted by PitterPatter11
Posted by soontobemommyof2
LuckyStar, I don’t equate being considerate for the health and well being of others with wearing a mask. I wear a mask if I have to but I’m well aware of the lack of efficacy of it and how much it can really protect others. I am considerate for the health of others and help in more meaningful and substantial ways where I know it will make a bigger impact. But hey, thank u for the suggestion!
Why do you think masks don't work? The masks trap the vectors (your spit and mucus) so it can not enter the air and infect other people. Think about when someone doesn't cover their nose or mouth when they cough/sneeze and you literally see snot and spit everywhere. A mask will keep those vectors from entering the air thereby limiting the spread of the disease. FACT.
For this pandemic, the biggest way you can personally help others to not get the disease is by wearing a mask. Eating healthy and exercising are great - trust me I am a fitness nut, but I also understand that America is not going to reduce the incidence of diabetes, hypertension, high cholesterol and obesity by tomorrow to help mitigate this pandemic.
If masks don’t help, then how did New York go from being the global epicenter to one of the safest places to be? It seems obvious to me that it’s because of the mask mandates that were in place.
NY reduced cases because it stayed locked down much longer than other places. Cases will rise here as things open, just as they have everywhere else.
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| Posted 7/10/20 7:35 PM |
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JennP
LIF Adult
Member since 10/06 3986 total posts
Name:
Jenn
|
Re: Would you send your child to school
Posted by soontobemommyof2
Omg Jenn u’re known for labeling ppl whatever way u want...selfish, racist, ignorant, etc. So I’m not even gonna go there with u. Not worth my energy. Do u want answers for ur loaded, sarcastic questions? Go read my comments again. They’re not that difficult to understand and I’m sure u’re smart enough to comprehend what I meant.
LuckyStar, I don’t equate being considerate for the health and well being of others with wearing a mask. I wear a mask if I have to but I’m well aware of the lack of efficacy of it and how much it can really protect others. I am considerate for the health of others and help in more meaningful and substantial ways where I know it will make a bigger impact. But hey, thank u for the suggestion!
In the 14 years I've been on this board I've labeled people (on this board, not talking about outsiders) exactly twice. Once was just calling you selfish.
Go ahead. Look through my posts and you'll see.
In the recent post that got nasty which was the only other time I did participate, before I said a word people called me and other people tons of names, including ignorant, azzhole, and the "b" word. But I'm sure that was ok with you because I suspect you agreed with their narrative - based on what you are known for.
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| Posted 7/10/20 7:47 PM |
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| Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 |
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