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eddiesmommy
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Member since 5/09 11524 total posts
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Melissa
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What is the point of tenure?
I was watching Oprah and it was about how our school systems are failing our children, I agree.
One of the points discussed was tenure. I do not support tenure, nor do I agree with it.
While I agree, its intentions were good and I do think there are hard working and well deserving, dedicated teachers who deserve it....it also protects the poor teacher, the teachers failing our children and our children pay the price for an unmotivated, poor teacher, or even a teacher with the best intentions who just does not do the job well.
I dont understand, how it can be that you cannot fire these teachers, how they have a job at the expense of the students.
And before you flame me for not agreeing with tenure, my DH used to be a teacher, and I didnt agree with tenure then either.
So Im just really trying to understand its intent and it purpose, and how it serves the job better if it is protecting teachers who do not do the job expected of them. Maybe Im just missing something, and Im curious what that is.
ETA: after hearing some opinions on this, its maybe not tenure I dislike per se, but some of elements of it.
Message edited 9/20/2010 9:53:08 PM.
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Posted 9/20/10 6:02 PM  |
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MrsYank
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Mrs. Yank
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
I have to watch Oprah at 7, I missed it at 4!
I have to say that tenure really isn't "given" as easy it was in the past. I've received tenure in 2 districts so far and both of my "tenure years" there has been a teacher (or 2) who does not receive it due to poor performance. Every year there is someone who does not receive it...
In addition, having tenure does not protect you from never getting fired. It protects you from not getting fired without due process. In both of the school districts I've worked in there have been tenured teachers who have resigned/ ask to resigned due to unsatisfactory performance.
ETA: getting tenure wasn't easy for me either- lots of evaluations, observations, unannounced visits- all of which I am fine with. Just wanted to put it out there that it's not something that's "given" to you. You do have to earn it- and rightfully so!
Message edited 9/20/2010 6:28:23 PM.
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| Posted 9/20/10 6:26 PM |
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sam
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Member since 6/05 154 total posts
Name:
S
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Tenure is really just due process. I found an article online that sums it up well:
The type and amount of protection vary from state to state and -- depending on agreements with teachers' unions -- may even vary from school district to school district. In general, a tenured teacher is entitled to due process when he or she is threatened with dismissal or nonrenewal of contract for cause: that is, for failure to maintain some clearly defined standard that serves an educational purpose.
In such cases, due process usually requires that the school board hold a hearing at which the administration presents its arguments in favor of dismissing the teacher or not renewing the teacher's contract, and the teacher is allowed to present his or her side. As in a criminal court, the teacher is presumed innocent until proven guilty: the administration must prove that the teacher has failed to measure up to some clearly defined standard; the teacher need not prove that he or she has measured up to it.
It is not impossible to terminate the employment of a tenured teacher, but the process is a difficult and cumbersome one. Consequently, many parents arrive at the conclusion that administrators would rather retain incompetent teachers than go through the time and effort involved in a dismissal hearing.
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| Posted 9/20/10 6:34 PM |
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Katareen
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Katherine
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by sam
It is not impossible to terminate the employment of a tenured teacher, but the process is a difficult and cumbersome one. Consequently, many parents arrive at the conclusion that administrators would rather retain incompetent teachers than go through the time and effort involved in a dismissal hearing.
I think this says a lot. In my HS, there was a Physics teacher that was horrendous. He never taught any appropriate material, gave only open book exams, and students did horribly on the Regents Exam. Year after year parents complained and NOTHING was done. I felt students were paying the price for the SD not wanting to admit fault in allowing this to continue for so long.
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| Posted 9/20/10 6:55 PM |
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eddiesmommy
best buds!
Member since 5/09 11524 total posts
Name:
Melissa
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
that is I guess what Im trying to understand, while I know its not impossible, it is notoriously difficult to fire someone. So in the meantime, while the district has to spend resources and time trying to oust a poor teacher, the children are left paying the price with a poor teacher in the classroom, while the system runs through "due process".
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| Posted 9/20/10 6:55 PM |
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eddiesmommy
best buds!
Member since 5/09 11524 total posts
Name:
Melissa
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by MrsYank
ETA: getting tenure wasn't easy for me either- lots of evaluations, observations, unannounced visits- all of which I am fine with. Just wanted to put it out there that it's not something that's "given" to you. You do have to earn it- and rightfully so!
It was a really good episode, I think youll enjoy.
To your point above, I agree, its not just given to you. I think you are probably, and I only say probably bc I dont really know you,a really good and committed teacher, so even once tenured after only two or three years, you will probably continue to give 100%.
I do think that tenure should be given after say 5+ years, bc I think you will see the teachers who truly dont make an effort or lose interest. I think its too easy for teachers who are in teaching for all the wrong reasons to falsely prove themselves for 2 or 3 years and then give up after that. I do think that teachers should have to show the same standard of commitment for a longer period of time, to weed out those who truly arent fit for the position or its responsibilities.
Message edited 9/20/2010 7:03:32 PM.
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| Posted 9/20/10 7:00 PM |
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jgl
Love my little boys!!!
Member since 8/07 7060 total posts
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g
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
I think that everyone makes it seem like there are SOOOO MANY BAD teachers and that really isnt the case. Yes every school probably has one but for the most part, many are very talented, caring, qualified teachers. Most of us in this field love the children and our jobs. It isnt an easy job and I think we deserve a little secrurity - some of these principals are really @ssholes!
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| Posted 9/20/10 7:08 PM |
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eddiesmommy
best buds!
Member since 5/09 11524 total posts
Name:
Melissa
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by jgl
I think that everyone makes it seem like there are SOOOO MANY BAD teachers and that really isnt the case. Yes every school probably has one but for the most part, many are very talented, caring, qualified teachers. Most of us in this field love the children and our jobs. It isnt an easy job and I think we deserve a little secrurity - some of these principals are really @ssholes!
Im not talking about the good teachers, Im talking about those bad teachers, even if there are say 2 in a district.
This episode specifically though was about under performing schools, with very high drop out levels, like DC for instance where the system is CLEARLY failing the children.
I think if the reason for tenure is, my job is hard and my boss can be an @sshole, then I really dont agree with tenure. I was hoping for some lightbulb moment, that there was some underlying reason for it that I truly didnt understand.
That doesnt pertain to you obviously, but if that is the reason for it, then I dont think its so deserved bc then it does protect poor teachers who fail at their jobs.
Message edited 9/20/2010 7:17:06 PM.
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| Posted 9/20/10 7:13 PM |
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MrsYank
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Member since 4/07 3238 total posts
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Mrs. Yank
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by Katareen
Posted by sam
It is not impossible to terminate the employment of a tenured teacher, but the process is a difficult and cumbersome one. Consequently, many parents arrive at the conclusion that administrators would rather retain incompetent teachers than go through the time and effort involved in a dismissal hearing.
I think this says a lot. In my HS, there was a Physics teacher that was horrendous. He never taught any appropriate material, gave only open book exams, and students did horribly on the Regents Exam. Year after year parents complained and NOTHING was done. I felt students were paying the price for the SD not wanting to admit fault in allowing this to continue for so long.
but see, this teacher should have never have gotten tenure.
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| Posted 9/20/10 7:15 PM |
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nicrae
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Mommy
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by jgl
I think that everyone makes it seem like there are SOOOO MANY BAD teachers and that really isnt the case. Yes every school probably has one but for the most part, many are very talented, caring, qualified teachers. Most of us in this field love the children and our jobs. It isnt an easy job and I think we deserve a little secrurity - some of these principals are really @ssholes!
I couldn't agree more. Also principals target people that they don't like. Without tenure a principal could fire you to hire their cousin's friend's brother.
My principal is one of those. He would fire anyone making above 60K a year and bring in all new teachers making less if he could get away with it. I can't begin to tell you the number of people who have left because of his harassment. He is a liar and makes up stuff to put on your observations that are completely untrue.
ETA: These were awesome teachers that contributed immensely to the school. They left and he didn't even bother to replace them. Instead he had maxed our classes at 34 kids and made other teachers teach out of content area.
Message edited 9/20/2010 7:19:44 PM.
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| Posted 9/20/10 7:15 PM |
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eddiesmommy
best buds!
Member since 5/09 11524 total posts
Name:
Melissa
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by nicrae
Posted by jgl
I think that everyone makes it seem like there are SOOOO MANY BAD teachers and that really isnt the case. Yes every school probably has one but for the most part, many are very talented, caring, qualified teachers. Most of us in this field love the children and our jobs. It isnt an easy job and I think we deserve a little secrurity - some of these principals are really @ssholes!
I couldn't agree more. Also principals target people that they don't like. Without tenure a principal could fire you to hire their cousin's friend's brother.
But is that the purpose of tenure then? I honestly, dont understand it then. That can happen anywhere to anyone, in any job. I know you, Nicole, are a FABULOUS teacher, so its not teachers like you I question the tenure process for, for whatever its reasons for existing.
Maybe its not the tenure I dont understand, maybe it is how it then, makes it notoriously difficult for districts to get rid of truly bad teachers. I just feel like in those cases the best interest of the teacher is put above the best interest of the children.
How does it serve the children and the job better if it allows poor teachers to remain teaching? How does it better serve the profession as a nationwide whole, instead of the individual. There is a lot wrong with the system, there are a lot of contributing factors that as a nation we are so poorly rated in comparison to other countries. I understand that the whole system needs to be looked at, and its not just the fault of the poor and underperforming teachers, but thats just the one issue among the many that Im trying to understand.
Message edited 9/20/2010 7:29:39 PM.
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| Posted 9/20/10 7:22 PM |
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sarahbelle
Little drummer boy
Member since 5/05 2377 total posts
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Sarah
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by eddiesmommy
Posted by jgl
I think that everyone makes it seem like there are SOOOO MANY BAD teachers and that really isnt the case. Yes every school probably has one but for the most part, many are very talented, caring, qualified teachers. Most of us in this field love the children and our jobs. It isnt an easy job and I think we deserve a little secrurity - some of these principals are really @ssholes!
Im not talking about the good teachers, Im talking about those bad teachers, even if there are say 2 in a district.
This episode specifically though was about under performing schools, with very high drop out levels, like DC for instance where the system is CLEARLY failing the children.
I think if the reason for tenure is, my job is hard and my boss can be an @sshole, then I really dont agree with tenure. I was hoping for some lightbulb moment, that there was some underlying reason for it that I truly didnt understand.
That doesnt pertain to you obviously, but if that is the reason for it, then I dont think its so deserved bc then it does protect poor teachers who fail at their jobs.
That isn't the reason for tenure. Tenure protects teachers against any arbitrary removal that isn't based on performance. Perhaps a teacher advocates too strongly for a student to get additional support services, or a teacher speaks out about unsafe conditions at the school....those teachers are protected from removal by an administrator who doesn't want to be bothered with a teacher who won't just fall in line. An incompetent teacher is not protected just because he or she has tenure.
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| Posted 9/20/10 7:28 PM |
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jgl
Love my little boys!!!
Member since 8/07 7060 total posts
Name:
g
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Message edited 9/20/2010 7:34:04 PM.
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| Posted 9/20/10 7:32 PM |
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eddiesmommy
best buds!
Member since 5/09 11524 total posts
Name:
Melissa
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
ok, thanks. Thats what I was asking, and I was only replying based on the responses from teachers that I was given.
I still dont understand why it is still then so a long and hard process though to remove a teacher who is CLEARLY not doing their job.
Also, Im not trying to start a debate as whether or not GOOD teachers deserve tenure. Im just trying to UNDERSTAND how there is a system in place that protects the bad teachers in the process and only harms the children. Again, Im talking in TRULY failing districts, where it is clear that there are A LOT of problematic teachers...not a few bad apples in what are overall good districts here on the Island.
Message edited 9/20/2010 7:39:34 PM.
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| Posted 9/20/10 7:34 PM |
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jgl
Love my little boys!!!
Member since 8/07 7060 total posts
Name:
g
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by sarahbelle
Posted by eddiesmommy
Posted by jgl
I think that everyone makes it seem like there are SOOOO MANY BAD teachers and that really isnt the case. Yes every school probably has one but for the most part, many are very talented, caring, qualified teachers. Most of us in this field love the children and our jobs. It isnt an easy job and I think we deserve a little secrurity - some of these principals are really @ssholes!
Im not talking about the good teachers, Im talking about those bad teachers, even if there are say 2 in a district.
This episode specifically though was about under performing schools, with very high drop out levels, like DC for instance where the system is CLEARLY failing the children.
I think if the reason for tenure is, my job is hard and my boss can be an @sshole, then I really dont agree with tenure. I was hoping for some lightbulb moment, that there was some underlying reason for it that I truly didnt understand.
That doesnt pertain to you obviously, but if that is the reason for it, then I dont think its so deserved bc then it does protect poor teachers who fail at their jobs.
That isn't the reason for tenure. Tenure protects teachers against any arbitrary removal that isn't based on performance. Perhaps a teacher advocates too strongly for a student to get additional support services, or a teacher speaks out about unsafe conditions at the school....those teachers are protected from removal by an administrator who doesn't want to be bothered with a teacher who won't just fall in line. An incompetent teacher is not protected just because he or she has tenure.
YES thank you very true!!!
Beisdes just having a BOSS (like everyone else) we have parents and students. Parents that think that they can walk all over you and that their child does no wrong etc etc... Students who want to do no work or put in any effort the blame is put on the teacher.
It happens a lot. My brother teaches in a middle school and a lot of kids do not care, they dont go to extra help, their parents are uninvoloved yet OUR job is to make them preform. We are held accountable for that and I think tenure secures us from principals who are just not happy with scores and getting rid of good teachers (but we have to keep the bad students)
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| Posted 9/20/10 7:35 PM |
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drpepper318
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Member since 6/07 8274 total posts
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me
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
I think it's necessary because being a "good teacher" or a "bad teacher" is so subjective!!! You might say a person is a bad teacher because they don't differentiate enough or use data, but maybe their lessons are thorough & explained very clearly..... well principals don't always care about that... some will have a hidden agenda (for example, against a teacher who is "too expensive" to pay for) and claim the person is a "bad teacher" and get rid of them. I also know of teachers who have been accused of doing things that they didn't do (because I have seen it happen where if the kids don't like the teacher, they make up lies to get them in trouble)..... without a fair hearing, these teachers would be fired due to no fault of their own. People will argue against tenure, but that protection is necessary to protect the "good" teachers.
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| Posted 9/20/10 7:35 PM |
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sarahbelle
Little drummer boy
Member since 5/05 2377 total posts
Name:
Sarah
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by eddiesmommy
ok, thanks. Thats what I was asking, and I was only replying based on the responses from teachers that I was given.
I still dont understand why it is still then so a long and hard process though to remove a teacher who is CLEARLY not doing their job.
If someone received tenure, then it's like the principal giving his or her stamp of approval. To then take that away should be difficult. What happened between those probationary years and now? If the teacher deserved tenure then, why isn't the teacher deserving now?
The principal has to prove that there is an issue and that the principal took steps to improve the teacher's practice.
It's a completely separate issue (in my humble mind anyway) if the teacher never deserved tenure to begin with and the principal didn't act sooner and allowed the teacher to become tenured anyway. That shows real incompetence on the principal's part.
edited for clarity
Message edited 9/20/2010 7:42:45 PM.
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| Posted 9/20/10 7:40 PM |
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MammaItaliana
LIF Infant
Member since 4/10 174 total posts
Name:
Nicky
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Sam's article explains tenure really well. The problem, as stated in other posts, is that after teachers earn tenure, some feel like they do not have to put the extra effort.
I have seen teachers who have been evaluated, prep their kids beforehand with lessons, how to behave, or go the extra mile to make it a good lesson. Meanwhile, other days are students working on crossword puzzles, while the teacher texts at their desk. I have also seen teachers "who know someone in the district" get outstanding evaluations and can careless about the students. Again, this does not include all teachers, just what I have experienced working in schools over the years.
It is sad that the students suffer, but taxpayers suffer, too. There are a few teachers in my district that make 60k-100k, have tenure, and are horrible as teachers. They have been teaching many years and are never reprimanded. There are things I wish I didn't know that go on in schools!
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| Posted 9/20/10 7:42 PM |
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eddiesmommy
best buds!
Member since 5/09 11524 total posts
Name:
Melissa
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by jgl
Posted by sarahbelle
Posted by eddiesmommy
Posted by jgl
I think that everyone makes it seem like there are SOOOO MANY BAD teachers and that really isnt the case. Yes every school probably has one but for the most part, many are very talented, caring, qualified teachers. Most of us in this field love the children and our jobs. It isnt an easy job and I think we deserve a little secrurity - some of these principals are really @ssholes!
Im not talking about the good teachers, Im talking about those bad teachers, even if there are say 2 in a district.
This episode specifically though was about under performing schools, with very high drop out levels, like DC for instance where the system is CLEARLY failing the children.
I think if the reason for tenure is, my job is hard and my boss can be an @sshole, then I really dont agree with tenure. I was hoping for some lightbulb moment, that there was some underlying reason for it that I truly didnt understand.
That doesnt pertain to you obviously, but if that is the reason for it, then I dont think its so deserved bc then it does protect poor teachers who fail at their jobs.
That isn't the reason for tenure. Tenure protects teachers against any arbitrary removal that isn't based on performance. Perhaps a teacher advocates too strongly for a student to get additional support services, or a teacher speaks out about unsafe conditions at the school....those teachers are protected from removal by an administrator who doesn't want to be bothered with a teacher who won't just fall in line. An incompetent teacher is not protected just because he or she has tenure.
YES thank you very true!!!
Beisdes just having a BOSS (like everyone else) we have parents and students. Parents that think that they can walk all over you and that their child does no wrong etc etc... Students who want to do no work or put in any effort the blame is put on the teacher.
It happens a lot. My brother teaches in a middle school and a lot of kids do not care, they dont go to extra help, their parents are uninvoloved yet OUR job is to make them preform. We are held accountable for that and I think tenure secures us from principals who are just not happy with scores and getting rid of good teachers (but we have to keep the bad students)
I can appreciate that, but Im not talking about the hardships of your job. I think teaching is a thankless position, one of the hardest and under appreciated jobs there is.
Im just trying to figure out where the balance is, how tenure better serves the students if in addition to protecting good teachers (and I get that) that with that comes the fact that it also protects the poor teachers, and it does and the children pay the price for that.
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| Posted 9/20/10 7:43 PM |
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eddiesmommy
best buds!
Member since 5/09 11524 total posts
Name:
Melissa
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by MammaItaliana
Sam's article explains tenure really well. The problem, as stated in other posts, is that after teachers earn tenure, some feel like they do not have to put the extra effort.
I have seen teachers who have been evaluated, prep their kids beforehand with lessons, how to behave, or go the extra mile to make it a good lesson. Meanwhile, other days are students working on crossword puzzles, while the teacher texts at their desk. I have also seen teachers "who know someone in the district" get outstanding evaluations and can careless about the students. Again, this does not include all teachers, just what I have experienced working in schools over the years.
It is sad that the students suffer, but taxpayers suffer, too. There are a few teachers in my district that make 60k-100k, have tenure, and are horrible as teachers. They have been teaching many years and are never reprimanded. There are things I wish I didn't know that go on in schools!
this is really the crux of what Im trying to understand, bc it does happen, and its happens frequently enough that everyday there are discussions about it.
I AM NOT talking about the good, hard-working, well deserving teachers, Im just trying to figure out how it better serves the students in cases like above and why the districts hands can be tied when it comes to situations like that.
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| Posted 9/20/10 7:45 PM |
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MommaBear
Very much in love!
Member since 6/10 2864 total posts
Name:
Angela
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
In the city, they are making tenure much harder to get. Teachers are observed many times throughout the school year - I think it's something like a mandatory three or more observations for teachers without tenure. Based on their performance during the observations as well as anytime administration wants to "pop" in for informals, at the end of the year you get either a satisfactory or a U rating.
TENURE IN NYC IS NOT AUTOMATIC THE WAY IT SOUNDED ON OPRAH. Teachers have to work for it. Even teachers with tenure can be fired, although it is a longer process to go through.
I'm a teacher in the city and I know I DESERVED my tenure and I treat every year as if it is my tenure year - I am always on my toes working as hard as I can. I agreed with a lot they said on Oprah today but I hate to think that so many people with so little knowledge (not talking about anyone here though - just in general) will now think they "know the system" because of an hour long show!
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| Posted 9/20/10 7:49 PM |
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sarahbelle
Little drummer boy
Member since 5/05 2377 total posts
Name:
Sarah
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by eddiesmommy
Posted by MammaItaliana
Sam's article explains tenure really well. The problem, as stated in other posts, is that after teachers earn tenure, some feel like they do not have to put the extra effort.
I have seen teachers who have been evaluated, prep their kids beforehand with lessons, how to behave, or go the extra mile to make it a good lesson. Meanwhile, other days are students working on crossword puzzles, while the teacher texts at their desk. I have also seen teachers "who know someone in the district" get outstanding evaluations and can careless about the students. Again, this does not include all teachers, just what I have experienced working in schools over the years.
It is sad that the students suffer, but taxpayers suffer, too. There are a few teachers in my district that make 60k-100k, have tenure, and are horrible as teachers. They have been teaching many years and are never reprimanded. There are things I wish I didn't know that go on in schools!
this is really the crux of what Im trying to understand, bc it does happen, and its happens frequently enough that everyday there are discussions about it.
I AM NOT talking about the good, hard-working, well deserving teachers, Im just trying to figure out how it better serves the students in cases like above and why the districts hands can be tied when it comes to situations like that.
I think we (rightfully) ask our teachers to do their jobs and we need to insist that principals do theirs as well. If the administrator ventured from his or her office more often, then he or she would know what was going on in the classroom. No one likes the boss popping in on them, but it would ensure that everyone was doing their job.
If the administration has evidence that a teacher is neglecting his or her duty, then they can remove the teacher. I don't see that as being hands tied.
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| Posted 9/20/10 7:58 PM |
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nel
LIF Adult
Member since 5/06 1173 total posts
Name:
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
My issue with why tenure is important isn't with the principals, actually... it's the experiences I've had (though they've been few and far between, fortunately) with irrational parents. Teachers answer to many different people, and I will never forget an experience I had in my second year teaching (nine years ago) when one of my honors students plagiarized multiple times. The second time I called her mother, she asked me if I had tenure... the implication being that if I didn't stop "harassing" her daughter about this, she would see that I didn't. So no, her daughter wasn't wrong; I was to call her out on it.
This is why I think tenure is important. I understand it might protect less than stellar teachers, but without it, those of us who pour our hearts and souls into our jobs would undoubtedly suffer.
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| Posted 9/20/10 8:00 PM |
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DaisyGirl
LIF Adult
Member since 2/08 1650 total posts
Name:
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by sarahbelle
That isn't the reason for tenure. Tenure protects teachers against any arbitrary removal that isn't based on performance. Perhaps a teacher advocates too strongly for a student to get additional support services, or a teacher speaks out about unsafe conditions at the school....those teachers are protected from removal by an administrator who doesn't want to be bothered with a teacher who won't just fall in line. An incompetent teacher is not protected just because he or she has tenure.
I think this is a great explanation of tenure. As a teacher, I have to be able to advocate for my students. I don't think I could do my job as effectively if I had to worry about getting fired because a principal didn't agree with me. Principals have pressure from above them to raise test scores and save $$$. My first and only interest is what's best for my students.
I also think that incompetent teachers should be fired. Teachers with tenure can be fired. The administrator just has to prove that they are not fulfilling their contract. Teachers like that give us a bad rep!
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| Posted 9/20/10 8:07 PM |
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eddiesmommy
best buds!
Member since 5/09 11524 total posts
Name:
Melissa
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by sarahbelle
If the administration has evidence that a teacher is neglecting his or her duty, then they can remove the teacher. I don't see that as being hands tied.
I mean tied in the sense that it can take years to go through the process and have a teacher who deserves to be removed, removed. All the while, its the students who ultimately suffer for what I still feel is a flawed policy in some regards, although I do now have a better understand as to other reasons, I had not thought of as to why it is needed.
Message edited 9/20/2010 8:11:07 PM.
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| Posted 9/20/10 8:10 PM |
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