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dandr10199
Grace is growing up too fast!
Member since 10/05 11561 total posts
Name:
Dina
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by Sassyz75
I think the Pope actually spoke a lot about the child abuse cases when he was here... what more are the Pope and Cardinal Egan supposed to do besides watch and make sure it doesn't happen again?
And yes, the views aren't for everyone... that is why not everyone is Catholic.
Well Said. 
I grew up Catholic and I am now Protestant. I am pro life.
as for viability issues...something to chew on...
If there were the technology that we have today when my mother was pregnant w/me, I WOULD NOT have been "viable" due to my heart condition. Most children with my particular heart defect die before age 20. I know this to be true b/c when I went for my fetal echo on my DD I was 29 weeks. They wanted me in there for the test before the "20 week Cut off". I was like "why???"  I was told that if I wanted to terminate due to the fetal echo results, It would have to be before 20 weeks. I told them that IT DID NOT MATTER to me what the results showed, I was not terminating. I just wanted to know if DD had my heart condition b/c she had a 8% change of me passing it onto her. If she did have it, then we would have lined up the medical care she needed at birth.
Oh yeah, I was told that I cannot have any more children. If I did get pregnant (even with the IUD) as risky (I am the 1% where the mother's life would be at risk) I would not terminate. I would take the risk. I believe ALL innocent life deserves the chance to live. Just wanted to throw out there a perspective from a REAL person (as opposed to a hypothetical situation) that this situation may happen to.
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Posted 4/30/08 2:19 PM  |
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Sassyz75
Turning a new page
Member since 5/05 9731 total posts
Name:
Dina
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
I don't think this topic was intended to argue abortion and what constitutes a fetus being alive- I think it had to do w/ the Church's respect for all life- and you are either with them, or not- there isn't any gray area in the matter.
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| Posted 4/30/08 2:21 PM |
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dandr10199
Grace is growing up too fast!
Member since 10/05 11561 total posts
Name:
Dina
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by Ophelia
the church's doctrine is made up to support it's beliefs.
I'm sorry, but if an organism cannot sustain itself, it is not technically "alive". Like parasites, if it's detached from the host, it dies. it doesn't have a sustainable life outside the host body.
until the moment that an organism can sustain life on it's own, they cannot call it murder, it doesn't fit the legal description of murder.
so they can use these comparisons as propaganda in their crusade against abortion...but it doesn't make it true.
When I saw my daughter's heart beat at 5 YES FIVE weeks pregnant; I believed with every fiber of my being that she was a "living" being. Some babies can live outside of their mother at 21 weeks, some at 23 and some at 26 weeks and some later than that. SO where is the "cut off" 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 , 26 , 27 weeks? What would make a baby "alive" in your opinion? There are ALWAYS exceptions to the rule, I was one.
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| Posted 4/30/08 2:23 PM |
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GioiaMia
Let's Go Rangers!
Member since 1/07 14818 total posts
Name:
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by Sassyz75
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by JenniferEver
Of course, but in the view of the Catholic Church, they are both mass murder. So thinking of it that way it makes sense.
they can say that all they want, but if it doesn't make sense in the real world, it doesn't make sense.
I think it makes sense- if you are looking at it from the basis of the Catholic Church's definition of when life begins- then it is easy to see why their stance is their stance...
I am not saying whether or not I think it is right or wrong- just speaking here from analysis of Church doctrine.
edited to say- as a mother- i have become more conservative on these matters than liberal as I was before I had my daughter.
the church's doctrine is made up to support it's beliefs.
I'm sorry, but if an organism cannot sustain itself, it is not technically "alive". Like parasites, if it's detached from the host, it dies. it doesn't have a sustainable life outside the host body.
until the moment that an organism can sustain life on it's own, they cannot call it murder, it doesn't fit the legal description of murder.
so they can use these comparisons as propaganda in their crusade against abortion...but it doesn't make it true.
You are talking about something entirely different here. As was mentioned before, every faith has its own beliefs. You are stating what you feel is right, what you KNOW is right based on science. The Church does not care about science - and the church teaches us that the SOUL enters the body at conception. Right or wrong, that is the Catholic belief.
I logically know what is true and can look at it through a scientific lens BUT that doesn't make me believe in what my faith teaches me any less.
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| Posted 4/30/08 2:23 PM |
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dandr10199
Grace is growing up too fast!
Member since 10/05 11561 total posts
Name:
Dina
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by Sassyz75
I don't think this topic was intended to argue abortion and what constitutes a fetus being alive- I think it had to do w/ the Church's respect for all life- and you are either with them, or not- there isn't any gray area in the matter.
I get it. BUT a few on here did bring up viability issues.
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| Posted 4/30/08 2:24 PM |
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dandr10199
Grace is growing up too fast!
Member since 10/05 11561 total posts
Name:
Dina
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by Tilde
You are talking about something entirely different here. As was mentioned before, every faith has its own beliefs. You are stating what you feel is right, what you KNOW is right based on science. The Church does not care about science - and the church teaches us that the SOUL enters the body at conception. Right or wrong, that is the Catholic belief.
I logically know what is true and can look at it through a scientific lens BUT that doesn't make me believe in what my faith teaches me any less.
WOW WELL SAID!!!!
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| Posted 4/30/08 2:25 PM |
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JenniferEver
The Disney Lady
Member since 5/05 18163 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by Sassyz75
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by JenniferEver
Of course, but in the view of the Catholic Church, they are both mass murder. So thinking of it that way it makes sense.
they can say that all they want, but if it doesn't make sense in the real world, it doesn't make sense.
I think it makes sense- if you are looking at it from the basis of the Catholic Church's definition of when life begins- then it is easy to see why their stance is their stance...
I am not saying whether or not I think it is right or wrong- just speaking here from analysis of Church doctrine.
edited to say- as a mother- i have become more conservative on these matters than liberal as I was before I had my daughter.
the church's doctrine is made up to support it's beliefs.
I'm sorry, but if an organism cannot sustain itself, it is not technically "alive". Like parasites, if it's detached from the host, it dies. it doesn't have a sustainable life outside the host body.
until the moment that an organism can sustain life on it's own, they cannot call it murder, it doesn't fit the legal description of murder.
so they can use these comparisons as propaganda in their crusade against abortion...but it doesn't make it true.
I don't think scientists would agree that a parasite is not alive...
but I know what you mean to say...
At any rate, many people have differing opinions about when life begins and beyond that, how grave it is to kill a "potential" life. I think in some cases if you kill a pregnant woman it is considered a double murder, lending creedence to the "abortion is murder" opinion based on our own legal system.
However the rules and views of the Catholic Church are what they are whether or not you, me or Giuliani agrees with them. No one is forced to be Catholic or abide by the Catholic way of thinking. It is self-contained. So Giuliani being ex-communicated ONLY has meaning within the church. if you choose not to abide by the church's opinions, it doesn't necessarily mean anything to you. I don't necessarily like this controversy, mainly for political reasons, but I do understand the Church trying to maintain the sanctity and meaning of receiving the blessed sacrament.
Some religions don't allow eating meat. you can argue all day and night about why it's actually okay to eat meat, but it's a religion, it's meant to be self-contained, you don't have to be a member of that religion. Or if you are a member of the religion, there's no law outside the religion stopping you from breaking the rule. You choose to care what your religion says. Either you car to that extent and don't get or support aabortions or eat meat or whatever, or you make another choice.
In most cases no one knows when or if someone is excommunicated. There is no official decree. Like sin, it's personal. however Giuliani is well-known for his actions (divorce) and his political standing (abortion) and allowing him to receive would send the wrong message to millions of the faithful.
I don't personally care if RG gets communion. I think he's an azzhole, but it's between him and God and his pastor. But I think the church's reasoning solid.
ETA: If you don't care about the church's teachings, then why would you care about being excommunicated or not?
Message edited 4/30/2008 2:29:26 PM.
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| Posted 4/30/08 2:26 PM |
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GioiaMia
Let's Go Rangers!
Member since 1/07 14818 total posts
Name:
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by Sassyz75
I don't think this topic was intended to argue abortion and what constitutes a fetus being alive- I think it had to do w/ the Church's respect for all life- and you are either with them, or not- there isn't any gray area in the matter.
Right. Everyone can have their own beliefs on what is true BUT the Catholic doctrine is what it is. You can be Catholic and not believe in certain aspects of the faith but you have to KNOW you are going against your faith to do so. Or, if you feel that strongly about it you can CHOOSE not to be Catholic.
I do not believe in EVERYTHING that the Church tells me to believe BUT I respect it and I am wholly aware of when I am doing something contrary to my faith.
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| Posted 4/30/08 2:26 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by Tilde
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by Sassyz75
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by JenniferEver
Of course, but in the view of the Catholic Church, they are both mass murder. So thinking of it that way it makes sense.
they can say that all they want, but if it doesn't make sense in the real world, it doesn't make sense.
I think it makes sense- if you are looking at it from the basis of the Catholic Church's definition of when life begins- then it is easy to see why their stance is their stance...
I am not saying whether or not I think it is right or wrong- just speaking here from analysis of Church doctrine.
edited to say- as a mother- i have become more conservative on these matters than liberal as I was before I had my daughter.
the church's doctrine is made up to support it's beliefs.
I'm sorry, but if an organism cannot sustain itself, it is not technically "alive". Like parasites, if it's detached from the host, it dies. it doesn't have a sustainable life outside the host body.
until the moment that an organism can sustain life on it's own, they cannot call it murder, it doesn't fit the legal description of murder.
so they can use these comparisons as propaganda in their crusade against abortion...but it doesn't make it true.
You are talking about something entirely different here. As was mentioned before, every faith has its own beliefs. You are stating what you feel is right, what you KNOW is right based on science. The Church does not care about science - and the church teaches us that the SOUL enters the body at conception. Right or wrong, that is the Catholic belief.
I logically know what is true and can look at it through a scientific lens BUT that doesn't make me believe in what my faith teaches me any less.
the church also believes that the soul never dies....so in that sense, is there such a thing as murder?
ftr, this thread was actually about how believing in an idea is considered WORSE of an offense than actively committing a mortal sin. or reall whether or not that was the case.
it became an abortion issue which is fine with me. b/c like I said, *I* would not get an abortion. b/c *I* don't feel it's right for *ME* but I'd rather run the risk of the church being angry at me in LIFE, than run the risk of St. Peter listing judgment as one of my offenses at the Pearly Gates of death.
my argument about viability just makes the point that different people believe different things and *I* don't feel comfortable imposing my beliefs on others.
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| Posted 4/30/08 2:29 PM |
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JenniferEver
The Disney Lady
Member since 5/05 18163 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by Ophelia
ftr, this thread was actually about how believing in an idea is considered WORSE of an offense than actively committing a mortal sin. or reall whether or not that was the case.
.
I don't think that's really the issue. Not everyone walking down the street who supports abortion rights is excommunicated. The issue is that Giuliani is a politician in a position of power and could potentially impact whether or not thousands of abortions take place.
Moreso, it's because he is SO prominent a person and everyone knows he is for abortion. It's sending a message to everyone because he's internationally known, as is his stance on abortion.
I would 100% support denying him communion for adultery and multiple divorces though!
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| Posted 4/30/08 2:33 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by JenniferEver
ETA: If you don't care about the church's teachings, then why would you care about being excommunicated or not?
when did I say I ddin't care about the church's teachings? never.
and I said that a parasit cannot live outside of a host to sustain it..w.hich I am pretty sure is accurate.
my issue wasn't WHETHER OR NOT RG should not have been allowed communion, i'ts the reason they chose.
I have NEVER taken communion without confessing. I grew up that way, confession EVERY saturday and church EVERY sunday.
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| Posted 4/30/08 2:33 PM |
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JenniferEver
The Disney Lady
Member since 5/05 18163 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by JenniferEver
ETA: If you don't care about the church's teachings, then why would you care about being excommunicated or not?
when did I say I ddin't care about the church's teachings? never.
and I said that a parasit cannot live outside of a host to sustain it..w.hich I am pretty sure is accurate.
my issue wasn't WHETHER OR NOT RG should not have been allowed communion, i'ts the reason they chose.
I have NEVER taken communion without confessing. I grew up that way, confession EVERY saturday and church EVERY sunday.
I didn't mean you personally.
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| Posted 4/30/08 2:34 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by JenniferEver
Posted by Ophelia
ftr, this thread was actually about how believing in an idea is considered WORSE of an offense than actively committing a mortal sin. or reall whether or not that was the case.
.
I don't think that's really the issue. Not everyone walking down the street who supports abortion rights is excommunicated. The issue is that Giuliani is a politician in a position of power and could potentially impact whether or not thousands of abortions take place.
Moreso, it's because he is SO prominent a person and everyone knows he is for abortion. It's sending a message to everyone because he's internationally known, as is his stance on abortion.
I would 100% support denying him communion for adultery and multiple divorces though!
well then the church is being hypocritical, no? if you believe in a woman's right to choose, then no eucharist for you.
it should be across the board.
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| Posted 4/30/08 2:35 PM |
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JenniferEver
The Disney Lady
Member since 5/05 18163 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by JenniferEver
Posted by Ophelia
ftr, this thread was actually about how believing in an idea is considered WORSE of an offense than actively committing a mortal sin. or reall whether or not that was the case.
.
I don't think that's really the issue. Not everyone walking down the street who supports abortion rights is excommunicated. The issue is that Giuliani is a politician in a position of power and could potentially impact whether or not thousands of abortions take place.
Moreso, it's because he is SO prominent a person and everyone knows he is for abortion. It's sending a message to everyone because he's internationally known, as is his stance on abortion.
I would 100% support denying him communion for adultery and multiple divorces though!
well then the church is being hypocritical, no? if you believe in a woman's right to choose, then no eucharist for you.
it should be across the board.
As you stated earlier, belief is different from acting on it.
As a politician and public figure, he is acting on it in his career, it goes beyond belief.
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| Posted 4/30/08 2:37 PM |
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BigB
C & J are 10!
Member since 6/05 5914 total posts
Name:
Stacey
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
I didn't realize that you could strinke a deal with the Cardinal! This is ridiculous! And people wonder why young folks leave the Catholic church!
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| Posted 4/30/08 2:40 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by JenniferEver
As you stated earlier, belief is different from acting on it.
As a politician and public figure, he is acting on it in his career, it goes beyond belief.
If you want to look at NOT acting on something (as in NOT voting for restrictive abortion legislation) then I guess.
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| Posted 4/30/08 2:41 PM |
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JenniferEver
The Disney Lady
Member since 5/05 18163 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by JenniferEver
As you stated earlier, belief is different from acting on it.
As a politician and public figure, he is acting on it in his career, it goes beyond belief.
If you want to look at NOT acting on something (as in NOT voting for restrictive abortion legislation) then I guess.
Well, with or without voting, having it as part of his political message could be acting on it.. I guess.
I am out of steam on this one!
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| Posted 4/30/08 2:46 PM |
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Nicole728
My Happy Girl
Member since 7/06 8198 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by Sassyz75
Catholics are pro life- all life... and either you are with the program or you aren't- there are still places in this World that are black & white- not gray.
I'm a catholic and I'm pro-choice...sorry but no one can tell me what I can and can't do with my body.
and this is one of the many reasons why people are losing faith in the catholic church....I believe as a religion we really have to move ahead with the times...the world is changing...I wonder if maybe they could alter their "rules" maybe like....priests not being able to marry...maybe we would have less children being molested by priests???
Message edited 4/30/2008 2:56:44 PM.
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| Posted 4/30/08 2:53 PM |
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Sassyz75
Turning a new page
Member since 5/05 9731 total posts
Name:
Dina
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by Nicole728
Posted by Sassyz75
Catholics are pro life- all life... and either you are with the program or you aren't- there are still places in this World that are black & white- not gray.
I'm a catholic and I'm pro-choice...sorry but no one can tell me what I can and can't do with my body.
actually I meant to say the Catholic Church- sorry...
I agree w/ above posters about why should the Church change for modern conveniences... I don't think they should.. if you don't want to, or cannot, uphold the "rules" then don't be Catholic...
Message edited 4/30/2008 2:58:15 PM.
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| Posted 4/30/08 2:56 PM |
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mtnmama
Member since 5/06 4794 total posts
Name:
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Message edited 12/7/2009 10:05:57 AM.
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| Posted 4/30/08 3:01 PM |
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Nicole728
My Happy Girl
Member since 7/06 8198 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by Sassyz75
Posted by Nicole728
Posted by Sassyz75
Catholics are pro life- all life... and either you are with the program or you aren't- there are still places in this World that are black & white- not gray.
I'm a catholic and I'm pro-choice...sorry but no one can tell me what I can and can't do with my body.
actually I meant to say the Catholic Church- sorry...
I agree w/ above posters about why should the Church change for modern conveniences... I don't think they should.. if you don't want to, or cannot, uphold the "rules" then don't be Catholic...
So b/c I don't up hold the "rules" that were written um.....thousands of years ago, I shouldn't be a catholic?
More than half the population would not be religious...how many people are virgins when they get married? Pre-marital sex is a BIG NO NO in the catholic church...we all know these days finding a virgin is few and far between.
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| Posted 4/30/08 3:01 PM |
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JenniferEver
The Disney Lady
Member since 5/05 18163 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Inevitably discussions about anything going on in the church lead to people airing their separate, unrelated grievances with the church.
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| Posted 4/30/08 3:03 PM |
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HoneyBadger
YourWorstNightmare.
Member since 10/06 15979 total posts
Name:
BahBahBlackJeep
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by Nicole728
Posted by Sassyz75
Posted by Nicole728
Posted by Sassyz75
Catholics are pro life- all life... and either you are with the program or you aren't- there are still places in this World that are black & white- not gray.
I'm a catholic and I'm pro-choice...sorry but no one can tell me what I can and can't do with my body.
actually I meant to say the Catholic Church- sorry...
I agree w/ above posters about why should the Church change for modern conveniences... I don't think they should.. if you don't want to, or cannot, uphold the "rules" then don't be Catholic...
So b/c I don't up hold the "rules" that were written um.....thousands of years ago, I shouldn't be a catholic?
More than half the population would not be religious...how many people are virgins when they get married? Pre-marital sex is a BIG NO NO in the catholic church...we all know these days finding a virgin is few and far between.
Technically, no. In the Catholic Church's eyes you are not being a "good" Catholic.
Right, wrong or indifferent this is what the religion believes. It's not for us to change it.
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| Posted 4/30/08 3:04 PM |
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wannabemom
look who's freshly baked!
Member since 12/07 7364 total posts
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aka marriedinportjeff
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
While I hold our traditions very dear, I do not agree with many of the judgements the Vatican makes.
I guess my discord with my church is that I feel a stance on abortion and birth control isn't completely appropriate for the Vatican to decide, since these things did not exist way back when, and no one knows what God's judgement would be in each scenario.... although many claim to know.
Even the tradition of celibacy did not exist in the bible... the church made that up too... primarily to prevent family lineages from having any inheritance rights to Vatican rule.
So, while I'm catholic, I obviously have some major social disagreements with my church, and I usually politely remain mute while these topics are discussed at church.
Message edited 4/30/2008 3:06:17 PM.
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| Posted 4/30/08 3:05 PM |
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HoneyBadger
YourWorstNightmare.
Member since 10/06 15979 total posts
Name:
BahBahBlackJeep
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Re: someone riddle me this: Cardinal Egan is upset with Rudy Guiliani for taking communion during the Pope's visit
Posted by Tilde
Everyone can have their own beliefs on what is true BUT the Catholic doctrine is what it is. You can be Catholic and not believe in certain aspects of the faith but you have to KNOW you are going against your faith to do so. Or, if you feel that strongly about it you can CHOOSE not to be Catholic.
I do not believe in EVERYTHING that the Church tells me to believe BUT I respect it and I am wholly aware of when I am doing something contrary to my faith.
Very well said!
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| Posted 4/30/08 3:06 PM |
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