Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

Pro-choice : Believing it is right to offer the woman the right to choose to have an abortion or not.


Pro-abortion: Believing that an abortion is right/just/(whatever word you choose) no matter what the circumstances.



They mean two totally different things. I cannot google what Miriam Webster thinks because that is an odd search to do at work...especially in NC.

Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

Wow. This thing is still going.

Okay, no one mentioned it but what do the Pro Lifers think about back alley abortions or DIY abortion where women use wire coat hangers or take crazy drug combinations or throw themselves down a flight of stairs?

I already said I am Pro Choice, but I just wanted to remind everyone of some of the other consequences of taking away the right to choose.

Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

Posted by Ophelia

Posted by LittleBlueBug

Also in the discussion section:

Although the abortion ratio was highest for adolescents in 2000, the ratio has gradually declined for women aged <15 and 15--19 years since the mid 1980s (Figure 3). Other studies also have indicated a decrease in birth rates for women aged 15--19 years during 1991--2000 and a decrease in adolescent pregnancy rates 1991--1997 (7,21--26).


Also, and this is important when reading any study, any good study will have a discussion about strengths and shortcomings of said study:

Because these data are reported voluntarily, several limitations exist. First, abortion data are compiled and reported to CDC by reporting area where the abortion was performed rather than by where the woman resides. This inflates the numbers, ratios, and rates of abortions for areas where a high proportion of legal abortions are obtained by out-of-state residents and undercounts procedures for states with limited abortion services or more stringent legal requirements for obtaining an abortion (causing women to seek abortions elsewhere). Second, four states (Alaska, California, New Hampshire, and Oklahoma) did not collect or report abortion data in 1998--1999 and three states (Alaska, California, and New Hampshire) did not report in 2000. Data for California and Oklahoma had been estimated before 1998; however, data for nonreporting states have not been estimated since 1997. Third, data provided to state or area health departments by providers might be incomplete (55). Fourth, the overall number, ratio, and rate of abortions are conservative estimates because the total numbers of legal induced abortions provided by central health agencies and reported to CDC for 2000 were probably lower than the numbers actually performed. Additionally, abortion totals for 2000 provided to CDC by central health agencies are 20% lower than that reported for 2000 for the same reporting areas by The Alan Guttmacher Institute, a private organization that contacts abortion providers directly (56). A previous report documented a discrepancy of approximately 12% (57); the reasons for this larger discrepancy are unclear. Fifth, not all states collected or reported data for all characteristics (e.g., age, race, and weeks of gestation) of women obtaining a legal induced abortion in 2000. Thus, the numbers, rates, and ratios derived in this analysis might not be representative of all women who obtained abortions.

thank you for your help in how to read and understand these charts.

Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

For me and my personal choice and the one I plan to pass on to my children I am pro-life. This has to do with my religious beliefs etc.

However that said I believe in a separation of church and state and I don't think the state has a right to tell anyone what to do with their bodies. I do however think there should be some limitations on abortions...perhaps how far along abortions are allowed to be legally done. IMO if you are doing it because you don't want the child (not because of medical reasons which sometimes are not found out until later on in the pregnancy) you should do it early on. Don't wait until you are showing...JMO.

Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

This is the last post I am making on this thread. I sent my sister, who is working to take over the mother/child residence my mother and her run. She counsels in schools on teenage pregnancy and abortion. She has some valid points to many of the arguments made on this thread, and I'd like to post them (sorry so long). If you want more info or to talk further, please FM. Otherwise, goodnight and good luck!

1. I see a lot of people saying, "... can't tell me what to do with my body!". The thing is, it's not all about YOU, it's about another human being. Women just happened to be blessed with the gift of life giving, that doesn't mean they should have the right to end life because it interferes with "her body". If I had a two year old who screamed and screamed for weeks because he was teething, and it was giving me massive migraine headaches, and I was sleep deprived and I hadn't eaten a proper meal in weeks, and my blood sugar was too low... would this give me the right to suddenly kill my child? He was in fact interfering with my health, my body, my well being. And he was completely dependent on me, he can't feasibly live on his own, feed himself etc, so really I should be able to decide if I do or do not want that child to live. My choice, right?

2) you're argument on the beginning of life at conception, with the separate genetic makeup, which is the same genetic elements that we have for the rest of our life, was completely valid and true, and anyone who is willing to be honest with themselves, would not try to argue that a developing "fetus" is not in fact a human being. There are also many facts about the development of a child in the womb that contribute to it's being a separate human being.

3) A lot of correlation between abortion rights and child abuse. Don't know if anyone's noticed, but abortion has been legal for 30+ years and child abuse, neglect, poor foster care etc. have not disappeared. If abortion is the solution to this problem, then why does it continue when women can easily obtain abortions for any "unwanted" child?

4) Newborn adoptions are rare to come by and difficult to obtain in the US because of abortion being the more common choice. It's a simple issue of supply and demand. Less children to adopt, harder it is to get one. An unplanned pregnancy is a difficult situation, but a woman who is willing to take responsibility for that and make the brave and selfless decision to give that child to a loving family (of which there are many out there waiting) is doing the best thing she possibly could for that child.

5) Children with disabilities are not a burden they are a blessing. There is a waiting list of people to adopt down syndrome babies. They deserve life as much as any other human being. (Shiv input- we should know, we have a disabled brother and he is AMAZING)

6) Miscarriage does not affect the body in the same way as an abortion, because miscarriage is a natural rejection of the developing fetus. The body knows when it is not right to carry that child. Most harmful pregnancies end themselves naturally. Abortion however usually ends a healthy pregnancy and messes with the hormone levels. This has been linked to an increase risk for breast cancer. Longer medical explanation about that if you'd like.

7) Although many people's social stances are influenced by their religious beliefs, a person's stance on abortion, (i.e. being pro-life) does not necessarily coincide with a religious belief. It's an issue of humanity. For many people, religious or not, human life is sacred.

8) This is a society that promotes quick fixes. No one is being held responsible for their actions. This is a detriment to our children. I'm obviously not talking about involuntary pregnancies (rape, sexual abuse, etc) where the woman has not taken the action willingly that led to her pregnancy.

9) Let's talk about rape and incest. First off it's a fairly small percentage of women who get pregnant following a rape. But if the woman becomes pregnant, there are now three people who are affected by the rape and outcome of the rape case:
If her rapist is caught he might get a handful of years in jail, some probation, etc... The women gets no punishment, rightfully so, because she did nothing wrong, she was the victim of a horrific act. The third person concerned is the child that was created as a result of this crime. Did this child do anything wrong. No, obviously. So why should they get the death penalty, why should they be punished far harsher than their father, the criminal?
If your dad stole a car and the cops came to arrest you, you'd say they were crazy, you did nothing wrong, you do not deserve punishment!

I've also heard many stories from women who got abortions following a rape, with encouragement from the people in their lives, only to feel their bodies were violated again by the procedure and they lived with the guilt that they had now done something wrong, when they were innocent.
A victim should be comforted and cared for, supported towards healing, not furthering the violation and trauma on her body. What's happened to her cannot be undone, whether she was impregnated or not, she will always have to deal with the emotions and memory of being raped, she's never going to forget about it, baby or not.

Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

Once again I think I make a valid point and get steam rolled by the heavies around here.

Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

Posted by Juliet

Once again I think I make a valid point and get steam rolled by the heavies around here.

Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

Posted by Ophelia

Posted by Juliet

Once again I think I make a valid point and get steam rolled by the heavies around here.

it's not that Juliet.

it's that you won't get an answer, b/c there IS no valid answer.

Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

Message edited 6/11/2008 5:08:48 PM.

Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

Posted by Juliet

Posted by Ophelia

Posted by Juliet

Once again I think I make a valid point and get steam rolled by the heavies around here.

it's not that Juliet.

it's that you won't get an answer, b/c there IS no valid answer.

Oh I don't expect everyone to stop and praise me for my insight. I just finally get up the courage to post on a thread and no one even SEES it. They are all so heated in their debates with a few key players that no one else can barge in.

Sometimes I feel this way about LIF as a whole. Threads become conversations between a few people and anyone else who interrupts the flow just a nuisance.

Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

Posted by Juliet

Posted by Juliet

Wow. This thing is still going.

Okay, no one mentioned it but what do the Pro Lifers think about back alley abortions or DIY abortion where women use wire coat hangers or take crazy drug combinations or throw themselves down a flight of stairs?

I already said I am Pro Choice, but I just wanted to remind everyone of some of the other consequences of taking away the right to choose.

Quoting myself to make sure people SEE this!!

Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

Posted by Juliet

Posted by Juliet

Wow. This thing is still going.

Okay, no one mentioned it but what do the Pro Lifers think about back alley abortions or DIY abortion where women use wire coat hangers or take crazy drug combinations or throw themselves down a flight of stairs?

I already said I am Pro Choice, but I just wanted to remind everyone of some of the other consequences of taking away the right to choose.

Quoting myself to make sure people SEE this!!

Message edited 6/11/2008 8:01:10 PM.

Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

Again, I do respect other people's views (pro-life, pro-choice, etc).

While I think what Shiv's sister wrote has some points, I have to argue w/ a couple of them:

1) a migraine caused by a screaming baby is quite different than the mother who is going to loose her life if she carries the baby to term. My dog barks sometimes to the point that it makes my head throb, but even though I will jokingly say his next stop is the sausage factory (only when he does this at 6am on a saturday/sunday), I would never give up or wish harm on him. However, there are some serious conditions that can make the ability to carry the baby to term a matter of life and death. That's quite different.

2) As far a children w/ disabilities. I am sure no one here is talking about the usual suspects (MR, Autism, etc). I am thinking about a situation similar to an article I read in this month's Self magazine. The mother went for a sonogram only to find out that she had not produced amniotic fluid. The doctor assured her that after a certain amount of time it is possible the baby would create it's own fluid (urine). However, if this did not happen quickly enough the baby would be crushed under the weight of the mother's organs. They waited and went back for another exam, but it was too late. The baby's limbs were broken and the skull had been crushed. Although still alive, the doctor advised there would not be a way for her to carry to term and the baby would not survive out of the womb. The woman wound up having to make the decision to terminate...which was gut wrenching, since she had wanted this baby very much.

As far as terminating for MR or Down's, well, that's a personal decision for the expecting couple to make.

I will be honest with you, when I have heard of friends of mine considering abortion, I have tried to talk to them and have them consider other options. The ones who have gone ahead w/ it have had their reasons, and it's not up to me to judge if they are good reasons or bad reasons? If I wish to bring religion in to it, the only true judge is God, and it is not my job to judge, since I believe I will be judged too.

ETA: Although abortion has not made abuse go away. I can not imagine the rate of abuse not skyrocketing if people were forced against their will to have unwanted children. I think we would see an increase in neglect, but I am speculating. One thing that has changed w/ the legalization of abortion is women's lives have been saved since they now have a clean, safe place to go to be treated by trained medical professionals.

Also, to my knowledge there are plenty of children in the US who need good homes, but the red tape in this country to adopt is rediculous from what I understand.

Message edited 6/11/2008 10:17:38 PM.

Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

Posted by stephanief

Posted by Juliet

Posted by Juliet

Wow. This thing is still going.

Okay, no one mentioned it but what do the Pro Lifers think about back alley abortions or DIY abortion where women use wire coat hangers or take crazy drug combinations or throw themselves down a flight of stairs?

I already said I am Pro Choice, but I just wanted to remind everyone of some of the other consequences of taking away the right to choose.

Quoting myself to make sure people SEE this!!

you make a VERY valid point...I wonder if any pro-lifers will answer