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Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
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Juliet
Family is Complete!
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Juliet
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by shiv
And one more thing, why is it pro lifers always have to explain themselves/defend their position?
When the pro choicers only have to state I'm for a womens choice and that's enough. Please tell me the social, economic and health benefits of having an abortion?
I am jumping in late in the game, but I think this comment is kind of funny. It just shows you how far we as a society have come. I remember a time when the pro-choicers had to defend their position and explain themselves. I remember a time when I said "if you are not in the position to feel the pain, you are not in the position to judge" (I was a teenager when I said this)
I understand and respect everything everyone has said thus far on this thread. And to add my own opinion, I am pro choice but not pro abortion. I think it is an important option.
As nice as it would be for every story to have a happy ending, MANY women are not emotionally stable enough to carry a baby. I think if a woman thinks she is not capable of being a mom and doesn't want the baby OR the pregnancy, no one should judge her. I don't like when women use abortion as a means of birth control but if being pregnant could mean that I might snap mentally and end up killing myself, then saving a life might cost me my own and that is not worth it.
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Posted 6/10/08 10:20 PM  |
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JenMarie
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Jennifer
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by shiv
And one more thing, why is it pro lifers always have to explain themselves/defend their position?
When the pro choicers only have to state I'm for a womens choice and that's enough. Please tell me the social, economic and health benefits of having an abortion?
I think it's because pro lifers often want to create legislation that takes away a right that women have today. Therefore, some explanation is required. I think being pro choice and saying it's because you feel women deserve the right to dictate what they do tot heir own body is as good an explanation as any. I don't think anyone here is not explaining their reasoning for being pro life or pro choice.
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| Posted 6/10/08 10:21 PM |
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HoneyBadger
YourWorstNightmare.
Member since 10/06 15979 total posts
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BahBahBlackJeep
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by shiv
And one more thing, why is it pro lifers always have to explain themselves/defend their position?
When the pro choicers only have to state I'm for a womens choice and that's enough. Please tell me the social, economic and health benefits of having an abortion?
No one has to justify their position. But I do think in this case it's b/c those of you who are pro-life are in the minority; so I think those who are pro-choice are curious as to why you feel the way you do.
I'm sorry if you feel like you have to defend yourself, I don't think that was the intention of anyone who posted on this thread. At least I feel that way.
My original question was do you think there's a difference between pro-choice and pro-abortion.
My question had nothing to do with anyone's stance on abortion really. It's just that things sort of spiraled into that.
As for the social, economic and health ramifications - no one but those who are pro-life brought that up.
I don't think there are really any ramifications. I'm more focused on women maintaining the right to choose.
Again, I'm not saying I'd go out and get an abortion, but I hold the right to CHOOSE sacred.
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| Posted 6/10/08 10:28 PM |
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dandr10199
Grace is growing up too fast!
Member since 10/05 11561 total posts
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Dina
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by Jennie0898
Posted by dandr10199
I have learned form this board before NOT to voice my opinion about this issue b/c while everyone will say that WANT to hear your opinion, they really do not. I feel that they believe they want to hear it b/c it is the PC thing to do, but in reality they don't. They believe what they believe about abortion. You can't change it. I have learned the hard way, trust me.
THIS comment is UNCALLED FOR. No one on this thread has attacked ANYONE for their opinion. If you feel having your stance on abortion questioned and disagreed with is the same as being ATTACKED well, I'm sorry, but I WHOLE HEARTEDLY disagree. You most CERTAINLY can have your opinion, but I DON'T have to agree or like it. Further more, I have every right to voice MY opinion too.
To say that people don't want to hear her opinion even though we say we do, is completely DISRESPECTFUL and frankly I find it VERY offensive.
You have NO right to say that. Up until YOUR inflamitory post, I've remained VERY civil as has EVERYONE else BESIDES YOU.
This thread managed to be CIVIL all day, PLEASE keep it that way.
Posted by dandr10199
I am pro-life. If I became preggo again, there is a 75% chance that I could get a blood clot in my heart and die or my heart could just stop. I AM the .0001% that people talk about "what if the life of the mother was at risk??" and I am still pro-life. I have a IUD and I chart...not 100%, but close enough that I will not get preggo.
It's absolutely wonderful that you're pro-life and you should feel BLESSED that you have the RIGHT to make that CHOICE to be pro-life. But why shouldn't people have the SAME RIGHT to CHOSE to be pro-choice?
The government tried to step in with a "moral" law once before. It's called prohibition. That didn't work out well either. To me, this is a similar situation.
Posted by dandr10199
It is b/c of abortions that for me & DH to adopt I have to pay 20K to a girl who can change her mind at ANY time within the first 6 months after the baby is born, I have to fly clear across that earth to a third world country and THEY would not even let me adopt b/c I have one bio child an a heart condition or I have to be a foster parent to a child who's parent can "show up" at any time to take them back. It is not easy to adopt if you have a medical condition and have one bio child. YOU all have NO IDEA what this is like to see teens or others get preggo w/o a problem and just "get rid of it" with out a second thought...WHEN YOU CANNOT HAVE ANY MORE CHILDREN OR IT WILL KILL YOU.
First of all, what does having an abortion have to do with adoption laws?? Please elaborate.
Secondly, do you THINK for ONE SECOND that the TEENAGER you mentioned who has an abortion made that decision LIGHTLY??? Did you ever consider that that very teenager is a SCARED KID who doesn't know WHAT to do but knows her family will DISOWN her if they find out she's pregnant? Should she DISTROY her ENTIRE life?? I'm sorry, but I don't think so.
I understand it must be ENORMOUSLY frustrating to see young girls getting pregnant and here you are wanting to have ANOTHER child and cannot and WANT to adopt a child and cannot. But consider what the woman who has NO children (and wants one) feels like. Count your blessings that you HAVE at least one child.
Posted by dandr10199
So yeah, I am that "pro-lifer that preaches" b/c if more women understood what a GIFT adoption is, it is my hope more would do it.
Be whatever kind of pro-lifer you want to be, but as a WOMAN how can you think it's OK for the GOVERNMENT to tell US what we CAN and CANNOT do to our bodies?
It's completely FINE to be AGAINST abortion, but why be against giving WOMEN the RIGHT to CHOOSE?
Posted by dandr10199
UGH. I promised myself I would not "go here" and I did.  Forget it. What I have to say about this does not matter anyway. People are going to do whatever they please anyway.
Please don't go there. There is no reason to have any kind of pity party for voicing your opinion. Just know that you are NOT going to convice everyone here to change their minds and agree with you.
Whoa. I just saw your response now. Last night I was "counting my blessings" and hung out with DD and DH after WW.
I do not even know where to begin with your post. All I will say is that you have a lot of nerve. You do not even know me. EVERY EFFFING DAY I AM GRATEFUL FOR MY DD, MY LIFE AND WHAT GOD HAS GIVEN ME. YOU have GOT to be kidding me with this cr@p that YOU wrote about me. Many girls on LIF know me IRL and know the $hit I have been through. I am not saying "poor me" and that I have been through more than anyone else. However, to be so RUDE to me on a personal level is uncalled for.
You are obviously passionate about his topic and so am I . I feel bad for you that your are SO ANGRY and JUDGMENTAL with a person that YOU HAVE NEVER MET JUST for expressing her personal opinion. . The minute someone on this board expresses an opinion that is conservative, in the minority, or a non-popular opinion they get attacked as evidenced by your post regarding what I wrote last night.
When I read our post I felt judged by you. I felt zero empathy from you, zero understanding as to WHY someone MAY disagree with you. I am flabbergasted over your entire response, but especially this:
Posted by Jennie0898
I understand it must be ENORMOUSLY frustrating to see young girls getting pregnant and here you are wanting to have ANOTHER child and cannot and WANT to adopt a child and cannot. But consider what the woman who has NO children (and wants one) feels like. Count your blessings that you HAVE at least one child.
YOU obviously HAVE NO IDEA what it feels like to be told you cannot have any more children, to be told you cannot adopt. IF you did you would not have wrote that.
Thanks SOOOOOO much for your understanding and empathy. Glad that we can have a civilized discussion with out it getting ugly. I am done here.
Message edited 6/11/2008 8:31:25 AM.
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| Posted 6/11/08 8:29 AM |
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Ang-Rich
Beyond Compare
Member since 5/05 17988 total posts
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by shiv
Posted by shiv
And one more thing, why is it pro lifers always have to explain themselves/defend their position?
When the pro choicers only have to state I'm for a womens choice and that's enough. Please tell me the social, economic and health benefits of having an abortion?
And provide statistics, sources and links (;
IF, and only IF, this was directed at me I would like to say that I did not ask you to prove your opinion by providing information.
You made a statement outside of your opinion that implied that you had factual information to support - information I had never seen. So I asked that you SHARE that information because I wanted to be informed - it might have effected my opinion.
I apologize if you took it the wrong way.
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| Posted 6/11/08 9:21 AM |
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HoneyBadger
YourWorstNightmare.
Member since 10/06 15979 total posts
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BahBahBlackJeep
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by dandr10199
Posted by Jennie0898
Posted by dandr10199
I have learned form this board before NOT to voice my opinion about this issue b/c while everyone will say that WANT to hear your opinion, they really do not. I feel that they believe they want to hear it b/c it is the PC thing to do, but in reality they don't. They believe what they believe about abortion. You can't change it. I have learned the hard way, trust me.
THIS comment is UNCALLED FOR. No one on this thread has attacked ANYONE for their opinion. If you feel having your stance on abortion questioned and disagreed with is the same as being ATTACKED well, I'm sorry, but I WHOLE HEARTEDLY disagree. You most CERTAINLY can have your opinion, but I DON'T have to agree or like it. Further more, I have every right to voice MY opinion too.
To say that people don't want to hear her opinion even though we say we do, is completely DISRESPECTFUL and frankly I find it VERY offensive.
You have NO right to say that. Up until YOUR inflamitory post, I've remained VERY civil as has EVERYONE else BESIDES YOU.
This thread managed to be CIVIL all day, PLEASE keep it that way.
Posted by dandr10199
I am pro-life. If I became preggo again, there is a 75% chance that I could get a blood clot in my heart and die or my heart could just stop. I AM the .0001% that people talk about "what if the life of the mother was at risk??" and I am still pro-life. I have a IUD and I chart...not 100%, but close enough that I will not get preggo.
It's absolutely wonderful that you're pro-life and you should feel BLESSED that you have the RIGHT to make that CHOICE to be pro-life. But why shouldn't people have the SAME RIGHT to CHOSE to be pro-choice?
The government tried to step in with a "moral" law once before. It's called prohibition. That didn't work out well either. To me, this is a similar situation.
Posted by dandr10199
It is b/c of abortions that for me & DH to adopt I have to pay 20K to a girl who can change her mind at ANY time within the first 6 months after the baby is born, I have to fly clear across that earth to a third world country and THEY would not even let me adopt b/c I have one bio child an a heart condition or I have to be a foster parent to a child who's parent can "show up" at any time to take them back. It is not easy to adopt if you have a medical condition and have one bio child. YOU all have NO IDEA what this is like to see teens or others get preggo w/o a problem and just "get rid of it" with out a second thought...WHEN YOU CANNOT HAVE ANY MORE CHILDREN OR IT WILL KILL YOU.
First of all, what does having an abortion have to do with adoption laws?? Please elaborate.
Secondly, do you THINK for ONE SECOND that the TEENAGER you mentioned who has an abortion made that decision LIGHTLY??? Did you ever consider that that very teenager is a SCARED KID who doesn't know WHAT to do but knows her family will DISOWN her if they find out she's pregnant? Should she DISTROY her ENTIRE life?? I'm sorry, but I don't think so.
I understand it must be ENORMOUSLY frustrating to see young girls getting pregnant and here you are wanting to have ANOTHER child and cannot and WANT to adopt a child and cannot. But consider what the woman who has NO children (and wants one) feels like. Count your blessings that you HAVE at least one child.
Posted by dandr10199
So yeah, I am that "pro-lifer that preaches" b/c if more women understood what a GIFT adoption is, it is my hope more would do it.
Be whatever kind of pro-lifer you want to be, but as a WOMAN how can you think it's OK for the GOVERNMENT to tell US what we CAN and CANNOT do to our bodies?
It's completely FINE to be AGAINST abortion, but why be against giving WOMEN the RIGHT to CHOOSE?
Posted by dandr10199
UGH. I promised myself I would not "go here" and I did. Forget it. What I have to say about this does not matter anyway. People are going to do whatever they please anyway.
Please don't go there. There is no reason to have any kind of pity party for voicing your opinion. Just know that you are NOT going to convice everyone here to change their minds and agree with you.
Whoa. I just saw your response now. Last night I was "counting my blessings" and hung out with DD and DH after WW.
I do not even know where to begin with your post. All I will say is that you have a lot of nerve. You do not even know me. EVERY EFFFING DAY I AM GRATEFUL FOR MY DD, MY LIFE AND WHAT GOD HAS GIVEN ME. YOU have GOT to be kidding me with this cr@p that YOU wrote about me. Many girls on LIF know me IRL and know the $hit I have been through. I am not saying "poor me" and that I have been through more than anyone else. However, to be so RUDE to me on a personal level is uncalled for.
You are obviously passionate about his topic and so am I . I feel bad for you that your are SO ANGRY and JUDGMENTAL with a person that YOU HAVE NEVER MET JUST for expressing her personal opinion. . The minute someone on this board expresses an opinion that is conservative, in the minority, or a non-popular opinion they get attacked as evidenced by your post regarding what I wrote last night.
When I read our post I felt judged by you. I felt zero empathy from you, zero understanding as to WHY someone MAY disagree with you. I am flabbergasted over your entire response, but especially this:
Posted by Jennie0898
I understand it must be ENORMOUSLY frustrating to see young girls getting pregnant and here you are wanting to have ANOTHER child and cannot and WANT to adopt a child and cannot. But consider what the woman who has NO children (and wants one) feels like. Count your blessings that you HAVE at least one child.
YOU obviously HAVE NO IDEA what it feels like to be told you cannot have any more children, to be told you cannot adopt. IF you did you would not have wrote that.
Thanks SOOOOOO much for your understanding and empathy. Glad that we can have a civilized discussion with out it getting ugly. I am done here.
I'm sorry if I came on strong and I apologize for making you feel attacked.
I'm not justifying my behavior, but will say that I felt equally attacked by your post and yes, felt the need to defend myself.
So as not to continue this vicious circle I am leaving it at that. If you have anything further to say, please do so by FM.
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| Posted 6/11/08 9:45 AM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
how do you all feel about welfare.
how many of you complain on threads about social services that people just sit around, having babies, collecting checkss???
what is it "I won't support social services and complain about tax increases to support them, BUT I will support a LAW BANNING a women's right to choose another VIABLE option"?
or
"I won't help you, but if you abort your baby it's a sin"?
(this isn't directly at anyone in particular, but society in general)
unless WE as a people are WILLING AND ABLE to INSURE that EVERY SINGLE child we "rescue" from abortion is TAKEN CARE OF and LOVED, we have NO RIGHT to say what should happen to them.
WE demand they live, but once they are out of the womb, leave them to the winds of fate. how terrible.
and Dina, I cannot understand what you are going through b/c I have no idea. and I know that SEEING these other women have what you cannot must HURT IMMENSELY, BUT you may not be able to feel what THEY feel.
I think the adoption laws in this country are ABOMINABLE. but that has NOTHING to do with abortion.
there IS already a baby out there that you *could* love and care for if the LAWS would only let you.
we need to be more of an advocate for changing these laws bEFORE we can say to a woman making the decision to abort or place the child for adoption.
right now, as it stands, adoption is a tough route for those WANTING and child, and those wanting someone else to take their child.
as hard as it is, we have to take the PERSONAL out of this, b/c it's no longer our bodies any more.
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| Posted 6/11/08 9:45 AM |
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lucyloo
nope
Member since 1/06 9758 total posts
Name:
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by Beth1210
I don't think anyone is Pro-Abortion
I would consider people who use abortion as a form of birth control to be Pro-Abortion
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| Posted 6/11/08 9:48 AM |
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Songwriter76
LIF Adult
Member since 4/08 902 total posts
Name:
David
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by Jennifer907
There absolutely is a difference. I am pro life, but I can understand why in some cases a woman would feel that an abortion is necessary (i.e. rape, incest, etc.) While I understand it, I do not agree with it. But I would not take her right away to do with her body as she wishes. If we outlawed abortion here, too many young girls would have them done illegally and could end up in worse scenarios than just being pregnant with an unwanted child.
Then you are Pro-Choice
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| Posted 6/11/08 9:53 AM |
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Shelly
She's 7!!!
Member since 8/05 14624 total posts
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by Ophelia
WE demand they live, but once they are out of the womb, leave them to the winds of fate. how terrible.
This is an interesting point you bring up.
I used to do clinic defense outside the Brookline abortion clinic after the shooting in there in the mid-90's. Every Sat. morning at 6am (tough for a college student) I would wake up and escort women into the women's clinic safely and shield them from the protestors.
So one day when it was quiet, I asked a few of them how many foster kids they had. They looked at me like I was nuts. I said, well, if you want these women to have these babies even though they don't/can't take care of them, someone has to. These children often end up in foster care- so I assume, since you feel so passionately to get up at 6am to be here causing me to get up at 6am to be here because of your concern for these children, you are actively trying to make their lives better by providing them with a home and family.
I never got an answer.
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| Posted 6/11/08 9:54 AM |
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shiv
Twinsanity!!
Member since 5/07 4747 total posts
Name:
Shiv
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by Ophelia
WE demand they live, but once they are out of the womb, leave them to the winds of fate. how terrible.
The alternative is death. Humans are very resilient people. Alot of people who have a hard childhoods turn out to be fine adults. You can't say that every child born to an impoverished family is doomed to a life of suffering. And if a woman is on welfare, she's probably not the one paying to have an abortion. If she doesn't want to give the child up for adoption, than she can leave them at a safe haven (church, hospital, etc.) and they will find a home. I know we have issues with foster care and adoption in the US but abortion is not the answer to those issues.
You want the woman to have the right to do what she wants with her body (even if that means ending the life of a child) and I want the child to have the right to live.
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| Posted 6/11/08 10:22 AM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by shiv
Posted by Ophelia
WE demand they live, but once they are out of the womb, leave them to the winds of fate. how terrible.
The alternative is death. Humans are very resilient people. Alot of people who have a hard childhoods turn out to be fine adults. You can't say that every child born to an impoverished family is doomed to a life of suffering. And if a woman is on welfare, she's probably not the one paying to have an abortion. If she doesn't want to give the child up for adoption, than she can leave them at a safe haven (church, hospital, etc.) and they will find a home. I know we have issues with foster care and adoption in the US but abortion is not the answer to those issues.
You want the woman to have the right to do what she wants with her body (even if that means ending the life of a child) and I want the child to have the right to live.
your innocence is both refreshing and a bit frustrating LOL.
even if you DO go on to live a productive life (and I can assure you it is few and far between) it is an awful thing to look back on, to remember. it shapes your life and your thoughts in PROFOUND ways that NO AMOUNT of community service could EVER help you understand.
your responses are in some ways very trite, and it takes away from your general argument.
and then there is that old...how can there be death when there isn't yet life?????? but that is another issue that is too tired to be rehashed again.
continue saving those that you can. but leave the assumptions out of it.
edited to change my words. I didn't mean annoying, and it was rude of me in any event.
edited b/c I shouldn't be making ASSumptions about the life someone has led.
Message edited 6/11/2008 11:17:17 AM.
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| Posted 6/11/08 10:28 AM |
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pinkandblue
Our family is complete, maybe
Member since 9/05 32436 total posts
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Stephanie
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by shiv
You want the woman to have the right to do what she wants with her body (even if that means ending the life of a child) and I want the child to have the right to live.
and like we discussed yesterday, not everyone thinks like you (or me for that matter)
That is why we have a CHOICE as to what we do with our bodies.....
If the government decides to make abortions illegal (which IMHO will NEVER happen), what is next......will they be telling us how many children to have? Where does it end
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| Posted 6/11/08 10:28 AM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by shiv
You want the woman to have the right to do what she wants with her body (even if that means ending the life of a child) and I want the child to have the right to live.
to LIVE HOW??? what should their quality of LIFE be since you deem that they must live under all costs...under the fleeting dream that they MAY someday be resilient enough to have a nice life.
by demanding that a fetus be brought to term and delivered as a child, you are in turn, leaving that child open to a world of pain...
I personally, having been there and SEEN it, could NEVER do that. EVER.
ETA: unless of course I personally, was willing and able to take that child and give it the life all children DESERVE.
not all life is good life.
Message edited 6/11/2008 10:33:02 AM.
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| Posted 6/11/08 10:31 AM |
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SweetTooth
I'm a tired mommy!
Member since 12/05 20105 total posts
Name:
Lauren
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by Shelly
Posted by Ophelia
WE demand they live, but once they are out of the womb, leave them to the winds of fate. how terrible.
This is an interesting point you bring up.
I used to do clinic defense outside the Brookline abortion clinic after the shooting in there in the mid-90's. Every Sat. morning at 6am (tough for a college student) I would wake up and escort women into the women's clinic safely and shield them from the protestors.
So one day when it was quiet, I asked a few of them how many foster kids they had. They looked at me like I was nuts. I said, well, if you want these women to have these babies even though they don't/can't take care of them, someone has to. These children often end up in foster care- so I assume, since you feel so passionately to get up at 6am to be here causing me to get up at 6am to be here because of your concern for these children, you are actively trying to make their lives better by providing them with a home and family.
I never got an answer.
This is interesting. If women are going to be forced to bring unwanted children into the world, what is going to happen to these children?
I post on another board and I have heard stories on there of women who keep having children just so they can collect more welfare for themselves but then do not take care of their children.
Many unwanted children are beaten, malnourished, and treated worse than animals. We have all heard the stories of the scared teenager who gives birth in the school bathroom and then throws the baby in a dumpster. If we were to take away a woman's right to not have a baby she didn't want, I think we would have many more cases of abused children.
I do agree with Shiv and some of the others that there needs to be mroe education. We need to go to schools and communities and not preach abstinence, but to talk about prevention. Give kids and the underpriviledge access to condoms and birth control. We need to prevent unwanted pregnancies from happening in the first place, and then I believe there would be a reduction in the rates of abortion. But to take away a woman's right is not the answer. We begin to tread a fine line if we make laws against abortion... what happens to the 11 year old who was raped by her father and is now pregnant? What happens to the woman who will die if she carries a baby to term? What happens to a baby with a terrible abnormality that will certainly never live outside the womb?
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| Posted 6/11/08 10:33 AM |
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Sassyz75
Turning a new page
Member since 5/05 9731 total posts
Name:
Dina
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by lipglossjunky73
Posted by shiv
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by shiv
I'm not sure what your asking. I was lumping all abortions other than for rape, incest, death of mother, into one category and speaking to those circumstances. The ones who accidentally get prego, who abort because it's not the right time, who believe they could not support or care for the child. There are so many organizations to help these people, they aren't in it alone. It won't be easy, but abortion is not the only choice.
you are making me sad for every woman who has ever been in the position. ever sat in the chair, crying. ever looked at a baby after and felt that guilt...but MADE THEIR DECISION BASED ON WHAT WAS RIGHT.
any woman that is reading this, and sees something so painful lumped into a vast catergory...a horrid stereotype...a PERSONAL PAIN you know nothing about, and yet spit on it, with every salt laden word you type.
WOW that's being a little ridiculous don't you think? Do you think i'm some kind of monster becasue I want to protect those children from the fate of an abortion? That I want these women to know that there are people to help them through this, that they are not alone? I don't just preach, I am out there helping. Giving these helpless women and their children a chance. We are doing what we can so that there is no reason why a women should feel she has to abort her child and go through that pain.
etf: spelling
I just read a file on a little girl in china who spent the first 2 years of her life in an impoverished orphanage with little contact with humans and access to the outside once a week. She spent 2 years in a crib. thank GOD she was adopted by a loving family. But there are many more children suffering her fate. I am sorry - but f there is a way to protect a child from a fate like that, then I am ALL for it. These things happen here in our own country. Who are we to judge. While you are reading up on stats, look up how many kids are neglected, abused, malnourished, and killed each year. I have asked every staunch anti-abortion protestor how many unwanted kids they have adopted so far. i have yet to get an answer.
I wonder, in 20 years, if we ask that Chinese girl if she would have rather not had the opportuntiy to live at all due to those 2 years in the crib- what she would pick? 
But, you are right- the number of neglected, abused, sick, malnourished, etc. children in this world is sickening- but should they not exist at all because we can't feed them- or should we as a society take care of them in some way?
instead of donating money, time, effort, a few baby bottles, a sack of diapers every other week, etc. we look with pity at the child and wonder why the mother didn't choose the alternate route? It sort of annoys me when so many "pro-lifers" out there spend all this money and resource picketing mothers instead of putting their money into resources that can actually HELP people.
So- that's why I don't identify with ANY of these movements- b/c they are both sort of "off" IMHO.
My cousin got pregnant at 17 and the first thing I thought was- she should have an abortion- because why should her life be complicated with a baby- she should be a teenager and go to prom, etc. But you know what- I'm glad that she didn't- that child is beautiful and absolutely deserves to be here! Yes, her life is more complicated, no she can't run out when she wants. And yes- the baby has also complicated the lives of other family members- grandmothers, aunts, uncles, etc.- but what seemed like such a tragedy when it happened, really turned out to be a blessing.
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| Posted 6/11/08 10:36 AM |
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LittleBlueBug
Happy Mommy
Member since 9/06 4074 total posts
Name:
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by shiv
Posted by Ophelia
WE demand they live, but once they are out of the womb, leave them to the winds of fate. how terrible.
The alternative is death. Humans are very resilient people. Alot of people who have a hard childhoods turn out to be fine adults. You can't say that every child born to an impoverished family is doomed to a life of suffering. And if a woman is on welfare, she's probably not the one paying to have an abortion. If she doesn't want to give the child up for adoption, than she can leave them at a safe haven (church, hospital, etc.) and they will find a home. I know we have issues with foster care and adoption in the US but abortion is not the answer to those issues.
You want the woman to have the right to do what she wants with her body (even if that means ending the life of a child) and I want the child to have the right to live.
Usually I would not post on such topics
I appreciate and respect your point of view, but on the other hand it paints a very rosey, yet unrealistic, picture for children of abuse. I can speak from my DH's experience. No child deserves that or can overcome it completely unscathed. I am not saying that death is better or one way or the other. However, one can not just assume that no matter how that child is treated it would have been better. My DH lives with the pain every day of his horrific childhood (even at 35). That will always be something he carries with him, no matter what brave front he puts up. Trust me when I think of some of the horrors DH and his siblings had to live through I shudder.
It's also not a matter of just unwanted pregnancies IMO. My biggest issue is that the health of the mother can be jeopardized and she wouldn't have the ability to do anything about it. Sometimes babies born in that situation also die (not all). When law makers w/ no medical training are making judgement calls on medical decisions that will result in my life or death I think that is just wrong.
Now for myself I know that I would not just have an abortion. However, who am I to deny anyone their right to choose? Maybe I have certain religious beliefs that may affect my decision, but that may not be the beliefs of the woman next to me...and that is also her right.
Our job as a society should be to really discuss and educate our youth...not after the fact. We need to be proactive. I don't think making abortions illegal will help anything. I think that will just further increase the risk of death of women, who out of desperation seek out dirty coat hangers in back allies. That's what it used to be like when it was illegal, is that what we want to do? Illegal or not abortion isn't going to stop. I think it's better, and more humane, to provide a safe, clean place for women to get what they need by trained medical professionals.
ETA: I also think they should start a counseling program for individuals who have abortions to 1) deal w/ any pychological issues that may result from it and 2) educate so that they may not find themselves in the same situation again.
Message edited 6/11/2008 11:11:20 AM.
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| Posted 6/11/08 10:55 AM |
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stickydust
Now a mommy of 2!!!
Member since 4/06 3164 total posts
Name:
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
I am Pro-Choice.
However, in these discussions of pro-life v. pro-choice, especially in an election year, I think it is important to consider all aspects of the situation. Many scholars who are opposed to Roe v. Wade are opposed not on a moral basis but rather on a legal basis. What Roe v. Wade did was to infer a right to privacy from the 14th amendment that MANY legal scholars believe dos not exist in the constitution. Thus, many who seek to overturn the decision do so on the basis that they are strict constructionists and believe that their role is not to legislate or to infer but simply to decide based on what is actually written. Again, I am not saying that this is my view but I just wanted to present the other side of the proverbial coin.
As for myself, I would never have an abortion and I do believe that sometimes it is a little to easy. I have several family members who have had them and It was not because of finances, and they were happily married etc. it was just because they did not want another child. And while I agree that they have the choice to do that I also believe there has to be some accountability. What we are offering examples of are those most tragic case of the impoverished, abusive or young. However, those are the extreme cases and what we are missing is the thousands of the middle of the road cases - the ones who CAN care for the children but simply choose not to. Again, I agree that it is the CHOICE but I really have a difficult time trying to reconcile the 2 things.
Message edited 6/11/2008 11:06:53 AM.
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| Posted 6/11/08 11:05 AM |
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LittleBlueBug
Happy Mommy
Member since 9/06 4074 total posts
Name:
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by stickydust
I am Pro-Choice.
However, in these discussions of pro-life v. pro-choice, especially in an election year, I think it is important to consider all aspects of the situation. Many scholars who are opposed to Roe v. Wade are opposed not on a moral basis but rather on a legal basis. What Roe v. Wade did was to infer a right to privacy from the 14th amendment that MANY legal scholars believe dos not exist in the constitution. Thus, many who seek to overturn the decision do so on the basis that they are strict constructionists and believe that their role is not to legislate or to infer but simply to decide based on what is actually written. Again, I am not saying that this is my view but I just wanted to present the other side of the proverbial coin.
As for myself, I would never have an abortion and I do believe that sometimes it is a little to easy. I have several family members who have had them and It was not because of finances, and they were happily married etc. it was just because they did not want another child. And while I agree that they have the choice to do that I also believe there has to be some accountability. What we are offering examples of are those most tragic case of the impoverished, abusive or young. However, those are the extreme cases and what we are missing is the thousands of the middle of the road cases - the ones who CAN care for the children but simply choose not to. Again, I agree that it is the CHOICE but I really have a difficult time trying to reconcile the 2 things.
Agreed, but you can't offer it for some and not for others. I agree w/ you though. I knew of a woman who had an abortion, who just didn't want another child, not because she couldn't take care of it. Is that the majority though? It seems like it's mostly teens and young adults? I could be wrong.
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| Posted 6/11/08 11:14 AM |
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shiv
Twinsanity!!
Member since 5/07 4747 total posts
Name:
Shiv
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by LittleBlueBug
Agreed, but you can't offer it for some and not for others. I agree w/ you though. I knew of a woman who had an abortion, who just didn't want another child, not because she couldn't take care of it. Is that the majority though? It seems like it's mostly teens and young adults? I could be wrong.
i put some stats on prior pages, and in some of the studies i've read it says that the majority of abortions are women over 20 years of age and most already have children and don't want another.
and why can't you offer it for some and not for all? Why? It's obviously a moral issue and should not be so accessible. I'd be thrilled if there was some regulation over abortion.
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| Posted 6/11/08 11:28 AM |
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shiv
Twinsanity!!
Member since 5/07 4747 total posts
Name:
Shiv
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by LittleBlueBug
Our job as a society should be to really discuss and educate our youth...not after the fact. We need to be proactive.
ETA: I also think they should start a counseling program for individuals who have abortions to 1) deal w/ any pychological issues that may result from it and 2) educate so that they may not find themselves in the same situation again.
I agree with all this, we def need better sex education. Carry around the baby, meet teenagers who've had children- scare the crap out of the kids! I do have a problem with pro-lifers who preach abstinence, because it is proven that those are the girls who wind up getting pregnant.
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| Posted 6/11/08 11:31 AM |
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Ang-Rich
Beyond Compare
Member since 5/05 17988 total posts
Name:
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by LittleBlueBug
Posted by stickydust
I am Pro-Choice.
However, in these discussions of pro-life v. pro-choice, especially in an election year, I think it is important to consider all aspects of the situation. Many scholars who are opposed to Roe v. Wade are opposed not on a moral basis but rather on a legal basis. What Roe v. Wade did was to infer a right to privacy from the 14th amendment that MANY legal scholars believe dos not exist in the constitution. Thus, many who seek to overturn the decision do so on the basis that they are strict constructionists and believe that their role is not to legislate or to infer but simply to decide based on what is actually written. Again, I am not saying that this is my view but I just wanted to present the other side of the proverbial coin.
As for myself, I would never have an abortion and I do believe that sometimes it is a little to easy. I have several family members who have had them and It was not because of finances, and they were happily married etc. it was just because they did not want another child. And while I agree that they have the choice to do that I also believe there has to be some accountability. What we are offering examples of are those most tragic case of the impoverished, abusive or young. However, those are the extreme cases and what we are missing is the thousands of the middle of the road cases - the ones who CAN care for the children but simply choose not to. Again, I agree that it is the CHOICE but I really have a difficult time trying to reconcile the 2 things.
Agreed, but you can't offer it for some and not for others. I agree w/ you though. I knew of a woman who had an abortion, who just didn't want another child, not because she couldn't take care of it. Is that the majority though? It seems like it's mostly teens and young adults? I could be wrong.
I agree as well...we can't pick and choose who gets what and when and why. It's all or nothing.
I see a lot of examples where people mention someone in what they believe is a reasonable position to have children have an abortion. While we may not agree that in the same situation we would make the same decision, why would anyone want to force someone to have a child? Is that their punishment...but then who really suffers? If we force people to have a child that they didn't want (for whatever reason) by taking away their unquestionable right to choose...aren't we then responsible for that life we fought to keep? If we decide to step in and make the decision for people...are we then accountable for the consequences of that decision?
It's not that I want to put anyone on the spot...it's that I can't get past that point myself...in my own thinking. I'd be interested to hear what other people think.
Message edited 6/11/2008 11:33:36 AM.
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| Posted 6/11/08 11:31 AM |
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LittleBlueBug
Happy Mommy
Member since 9/06 4074 total posts
Name:
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by shiv
Posted by LittleBlueBug
Agreed, but you can't offer it for some and not for others. I agree w/ you though. I knew of a woman who had an abortion, who just didn't want another child, not because she couldn't take care of it. Is that the majority though? It seems like it's mostly teens and young adults? I could be wrong.
i put some stats on prior pages, and in some of the studies i've read it says that the majority of abortions are women over 20 years of age and most already have children and don't want another.
and why can't you offer it for some and not for all? Why? It's obviously a moral issue and should not be so accessible. I'd be thrilled if there was some regulation over abortion.
I'm not saying your wrong. It is a bit easy. Just who is going to be the deciding body? What would the reprocussions be for the baby who is born under force? The thing is when they made legislation for late term abortions, they did not put in any exception for health issues. The law makers are only seeing this issue as black and white. I also would not want some middle-aged man making a decision for me...he should not be the deciding body or make the regulations.
I'm sorry, I didn't look through the whole thread
I can't say at 21 years old I would have been equipped to take care of a baby (physically, emotionally, or financially).
Message edited 6/11/2008 11:40:11 AM.
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| Posted 6/11/08 11:34 AM |
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SweetTooth
I'm a tired mommy!
Member since 12/05 20105 total posts
Name:
Lauren
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by shiv
Posted by LittleBlueBug
Agreed, but you can't offer it for some and not for others. I agree w/ you though. I knew of a woman who had an abortion, who just didn't want another child, not because she couldn't take care of it. Is that the majority though? It seems like it's mostly teens and young adults? I could be wrong.
i put some stats on prior pages, and in some of the studies i've read it says that the majority of abortions are women over 20 years of age and most already have children and don't want another.
and why can't you offer it for some and not for all? Why? It's obviously a moral issue and should not be so accessible. I'd be thrilled if there was some regulation over abortion.
You can't offer it for some and not for all because where do you draw the line? Who decides what is legal and what is not? What if there is a "borderline" case? Will a woman have to go to court to prove she meets the st andards for the law? There are just too many shades of gray.
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| Posted 6/11/08 11:45 AM |
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MarisaK
HELLO Manolo !!
Member since 5/06 14562 total posts
Name:
Marisa
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Re: Spinoff to Pro-Life/Pro-Choice: Do you think there is a difference between being Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?
Posted by shiv
Posted by LittleBlueBug
Agreed, but you can't offer it for some and not for others. I agree w/ you though. I knew of a woman who had an abortion, who just didn't want another child, not because she couldn't take care of it. Is that the majority though? It seems like it's mostly teens and young adults? I could be wrong.
i put some stats on prior pages, and in some of the studies i've read it says that the majority of abortions are women over 20 years of age and most already have children and don't want another.
and why can't you offer it for some and not for all? Why? It's obviously a moral issue and should not be so accessible. I'd be thrilled if there was some regulation over abortion.
This is my original question for page 2 -
THIS is why you can't offer it for SOME and not ALL - WHO is going to regulate??
For those who are Ok with a woman's right to choose ONLY in the case of Rape, Incest etc.........
Did it ever occur to anyone HOW LONG it would take for a woman to prove she was the victim of one of these crimes?
What would the law require of her?
HOW many women would become SO desperate to abort their pregnancies that they would consider ruining the life of an innocent man by claiming rape or incest?
Who draws the lines? Who makes the final decisions? By the time something like this played out in court the unwatned child could be 10 years old !! -
Just a thought ...........
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| Posted 6/11/08 11:49 AM |
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