Updated in first post. What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

Just to backtrack, we have 2 dogs. Maddie, our boxer, is 1 1/2, we bought her from a puppy store when she was 3 months old. She is gentle and great with the kids. On the small side for a boxer.

Close to 2 months ago, we took in(adopted) a dog from someone who posted on craigslist. She was supposedly left the dog by her deceased aunt and couldn't keep the dog. She made it clear the dogs faults (jumps, whines if not exercised) and wanted to make sure he went to the right family with a large yard. This dog is a boxer although to me he looks part pit, but I could be completely wrong. He is very large.

We have all grown very close to the dog (Ryder) but I also know we don't really know him and need to be careful. He has snapped at some male dogs at the dog park. My husband works with a trainer and he felt we could work through these things.

Today, Ryder had a new bone. My 4 year old bent down to kiss the dog, and he made this loud hissing snapping sound, and bit his face. Didn't break the skin. I immediately said we are getting rid of the dog. My husband doesn't blame me but blames himself for not being more careful since the dog had a new bone.

I feel our other dog would never snap at my kids, but everyone says you never know. My gut feeling is I need to give the dog back (the woman said if we ever needed to give him up, she would take him back).

Is there ever a time to give a dog a second chance? What would you do. Sorry so long. Thanks for your advice.... we are all upset today.



UPDATE. So the trainer came today. Put Ryder to the test. We gave Ryder the same bone that posed the problem last time and the trainer Jason redirected Ryder in his trainer ways. Forceful but my other dog maddie would have just left it alone. Ryder lunged, barked and tried attacking Jason several times. He was confident he would have bitten a trainer with less experience. He feels we have a major liability on our hands and that Ryder needs to be in his facility for weeks. Unfortunately it's not cheap and we don't have the money and quite honestly I'm not sure I would feel comfortable with Ryder even after that.

He feels that having little children in the house with him is too dangerous. I feel terrible but need to do what's best for my family first. The woman who gave us Ryder said if anything happened she would take him back and find another owner. We are waiting to hear from her now. Sad sad day. Thx to all for your help.

Message edited 3/3/2013 12:37:39 PM.

What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

Message edited 4/22/2013 7:08:18 PM.

Re: What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

Get rid of the dog!

Re: What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

I have 2 dogs. They are not good with kids, and can be nippers. One of them will snap at my other if he comes near her food. But either way, we teach our DD to stay away from them when they are eating, or drinking.

I am not making excuses for them but just think how when a child has a new toy they don't want to share, they get upset, may react towards another child, cry, grab the toy and hold it hard, etc. A dog has no way to say GET AWAY from my food, leave it alone and leave me alone. So they snap and maybe growl to warn someone to back off.

I am not making excuses for the dog at all. This is something that can be worked on via training if you wish. Or you can just make sure your DC learns to never ever disturb the dog while it is eating. How does the dog react to your other dog if he/she comes near when he is eating?

Yes, you don't know this dog well. However, food possession is very common among animals. Did the dog live in the other house with another pet or dog that maybe used to steal it's food, so now it's protective over it?

I personally would not give a dog that I love, who is goodwith my other dog and good with my child, away if it snapped at someone who was getting too close when it was in the middle of a tasty new bone.

You can google and see for ways to deal with food possession but number one thing is teaching a child to leave a dog alone while they are eating. Food possession is of course NOT a good thing and the goal is to stop that behavior. But it's very common.

I hope your DS is ok and I am sorry you are upset. It is very unfortunate but also very common.

Message edited 2/23/2013 11:23:22 PM.

Re: What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

Posted by mishy626

I feel our other dog would never snap at my kids, but everyone says you never know. My gut feeling is I need to give the dog back (the woman said if we ever needed to give him up, she would take him back).

Is there ever a time to give a dog a second chance? What would you do. Sorry so long. Thanks for your advice.... we are all upset today.

Message edited 2/23/2013 11:21:50 PM.

What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

So sorry that you're going through this and glad that your son wasn't injured. Resource guarding is NORMAL dog behavior, and an untrained dog will likely do it. A dog that hasn't socialized well is also going to be dog reactive/aggressive. The dog wasn't being aggressive at all. If the dog wanted to BITE your son and cause harm, he would have. He gave your son a warning to back off. It is instinct for the dog and he hasn't been taught that it is unacceptable behavior (doesn't sound like the dog had much training?)

Learn to read dog body language (and specifically your dog) and consider crate training him. Get him to love his crate and teach him to go to his crate when he needs a respite from the kids or from a party etc.

You and your husband need to work with the dog with resource guarding. Teach him drop it, don't play tug of war unless it's on your terms etc. I have gotten great advice on here from other posters, specifically Traysee who has a foster dog right now that came from NYCACC. I know that with her foster, she is preventing guarding by doing things like a tradeoff, where the dog has a toy, she drops a high value treat (like a piece of hot dog) to teach the dog that good things come when she approaches. (She can probably define it better)

Also, your 4 year old is old enough to be taught to not touch the dog when eating, not to take toys from the dog, don't bother dog when in crate or on bed etc. Supervise all interactions with your child(ren) and dog(s). Your dogs and children should never be around each other unsupervised. Even if your dog is great with your child today, there can still be the potential for your dog to bite tomorrow.

We also just adopted a boxer mix, likely pit. Pit bulls are not large dogs, but are muscular, boxers are normally large. Your dog may be full boxer or mixed with another breed. But, it doesn't matter. Pit or not, the dog has issues with resource guarding and probably needs to be properly socialized with other dogs. I have done a TON of reading and talked to many people experienced with dogs, specifically bully breeds, about proper dog behavior and advice for integrating Allie into our family and home.

As sweet as my dog seems to be, I have her by my side or in the crate. She isn't allowed in the room with my kids without me or my husband. I step in and remove my children when the dog begins to show signs of stress (for instance, if they start doing calming licks). This teaches the dog that I will handle the children so she doesn't have to. She is taught to walk away from them. I supervise ALL play, and my children are not allowed to play or touch the dog's toys. Not yet. Play is a training exercise right now for her. Everything is. We are using a lot of NILIF with her. Each command has a specific meaning, every thing is earned. Sit is sit. Down is lay down, off is get down or get off the furniture. Every time. She wants to play? Sit first. When she complies, she gets the toy etc. She wants affection? She is ignored when she jumps or paws. I call her over, tell her sit, and then shower her with love. Feedings? She is told to sit and wait. She has to wait for me to give her permission. Same for treats. Walks? If she wants a walk, she wants the leash on, she has to sit for me to do it. This could help you with the jumping. Also if you're not exercising him enough he is going to get bored and that is when dogs get mischievous. A tired dog is a happy dog.

Here's a couple articles that may prove helpful. Good luck with whatever you decide.
http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm
http://rawfed.com/myths/training.html
http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/resource-guarding/

Message edited 2/24/2013 1:10:06 PM.

Re: What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

I have raised and trained dogs for 18 years as a professional dog handler and I have bully experience including staffys, pits, bulldogs, and boxers. I do believe in second chances... in certain circumstances. BUT only if everyone in the house is willing and able to strictly follow whatever program your trainer is setting up for you.

How old Ryder? Is he neutered? Do you have photos of him? How much does he weigh? Statistically the dog most likely to bite is an un-neutered male dog between the ages of 1-3 years old. I personally trust female dogs more than male dogs, especially when younger children are involved because they do seem to be more thoughtful and maternal.

This is a tough one for me because as a parent my first instinct is to say find him another home and get a different dog if you want one. I am a fairly practical person and I have a busy enough life that I feel like in all practicality unless the whole family is on board and capable of working on his behavior modification then this will cause a lot of stress in the house.

Do you have other children... is your son the youngest? Do you think your son will be wary of the dog from now on?

As for Ryder, if you love him and you want to work it out then I will say that as far as bites go, he gave him a stern warning. He could have done some serious damage and he didn't. That does show that at least in this particular instance, he showed some restraint. I have a lot of mixed opinions about the situation but without knowing so many more details it's not for anyone here to say if you should keep or give up the dog. I would track down an animal behaviorist to come and give you a consultation. Someone who is familiar with rescue dogs and bully breeds. I can give you a couple of names if you want.

on a side note, if he is being aggressive at the dog park I wouldn't continue to bring him there. It's generally not recommended to bring Bully dogs to the dog park. They are more suited to activities with their favorite humans and specific select dogs they already have a relationship with. He might be better off having play dates with a female who is around his same age and size. And he should definitely not be playing with dogs smaller than him.

If you want to...you can PM me your number and I will call and give you my thoughts on all this in greater detail.

Message edited 2/24/2013 4:07:25 PM.

Re: What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

Thank you SO much for your responses. Everything everyone said makes much sense. My husband spoke with a trainer today who said the same thing, that it seems as though Ryder, was giving my son a warning, since he could have really hurt him but didn't. He seems to think he could use training and will do wonderfully.

Unfortunately we don't have much background on him. He is 2 years old.... we decided to get a male dog because we were told that female/female boxers have the possibilty of not doing well together.

I have an 8 year old son as well. I guess we should have been more specific with rules with the new dog, which we have now laid out.

I'm going to try to attach a pic.... curious what you all think if he if a full boxer (his papers say he is, but I don't believe it). (Ryder is the white dog)

Thanks again everyone!!!!

Image Attachment(s):

Message edited 2/24/2013 5:20:11 PM.

What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

You were right to get a male in that regard, it does make for an easier match with your existing female dog. Two adult females are harder to introduce. If you wanted two females then it's easier to introduce a young female puppy. Although successful matches are really up to the individual dogs. You are just hedging your bets by doing a m/f match.

If I had to guess his breed I would say he is either a full boxer or if he didn't have actual papers, than I would guess American bulldog/boxer mix. But if he is papered he is probably full boxer. I think the white boxers are more rare so he is probably pet quality. They do come in all shapes and sizes. :o)

It sounds like you are going to try getting him some training which is always a good thing. Luckily, it was a best case scenario where a bite is concerned and now everyone is aware of the situation. If he isn't neutered I would definitely put that high on the list because he is developing into an adult dog and those hormones can play a big part. Either way you will probably need to be diligent the next 1-2 years until he is mentally mature and not quite so reactive and by that time your son will be even older as well. :o)

But regardless, boxers are in the same pitbull family so they share many of the same physical and temperament qualities. I see a lot of people crossing boxer into their pitbulls too and the term pitbull itself is used to describe several different breeds of bully dogs and their cross breeds. It also doesn't help that lots of rescues list dogs and even pitbull owners themselves often tell people their pitbulls are "boxer mixes" so that people are not intimidated by the big bad pitbull. Boxer mixes get adopted, "pitbulls" are much harder to place.

Message edited 2/24/2013 8:08:21 PM.

What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

He is gorgeous! Looks like a white boxer to me

Re: What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

That dog looks like a pure boxer to me...a white boxer at that.

This may or may not be related, but most white boxers are deaf. Have you looked into that at all? Ryder may need a different type of training if that is the case.

In the not-so-distant past, white boxer puppies were immediately put to sleep because of their deafness

Unfortunately, I'm sure some people still do it.

Message edited 2/24/2013 8:11:46 PM.

Re: What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

Just wanted to add, they look adorable together.

Re: What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

Ryder's eyes look like pit eyes.
I googled pictures of white boxers, and their faces are different, but google white boxer/pit mix and it looks just like Ryder.

I can't offer any advice since I don't own dogs, but being around dogs I know not to interfere with their food or bones.
I hope that your son is ok.

Re: What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

Re: What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

My husband thinks I'm crazy in thinking he's part pit, but to me he doesn't have that mushy droopy front part of the face if that makes sense. I guess I'll see what the trainer thinks. Thx again ladies, all your comments and advice or so appreciated!!!!

Re: What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

I said pit eyes because my friend's daughter had 4, and although they were all different colorations, they all had the same eyes.

this is the google image that came up for pit/boxer mix.

What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

In my humble opinion, the fact that the dog didn't break skin shows he was giving your son a warning. If he had really lost his temper or whatever he would have just straight up bitten him. Nipping and such is part of how dogs are with each other, if they were to feel really threatened and want to hurt your son the dog would have been able to. Just my 2 cents

Re: What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

A) I think Ryder is definitely part Pitt. Not that it matters, I personally think Pitts can be and often are fantastic, loving family pets. But I immediately said Pitty when I saw the first picture.

B) Growing up we had a Golden who as he got older got grouchier. He once bit my little sister because she was teasing him with food. It was a one time thing and my parents actually worked more on my sister than on the dog, however he did get a few extra sessions with the trainer after that. I believe that if you love this dog and want him in your family you should absolutely give him a second chance.

It sounds like you are following a solid path, and all the advice on this thread is great! Ryder was reacting the only way he knew how so from now on you need to work on showing and teaching him his other options.

Good luck!

Re: What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

I don't have any new advice to offer, but totally back up what everyone says about training and food aggression. My dogs (particularly our male) will get posessive over a special treat, never regular dog food, but something particularly tasty or on rare occasions toy can definitely trigger a fight. We only let our dogs have bones when one is crated. PERIOD. And the crated dog is not allowed out until the other one finishes. No exceptions. We don't have kids, but we'll likely crate them both if they have bones.

But, he definitely looks like a pit mix. That's a total pit face. Nothing wrong with it, I have a pit/boxer mix, too, who is sweet as pie. In fact, the pit/boxer mix is NOT the one with food aggression- the collie/golden retriever mix is! People look at him and see this sweet golden dog and they look at my pit and see a vicious dog but they couldn't be more wrong.

What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

If you are really curious about what his genetics are you can get him a DNA test for under $100. I hear they are more accurate for purebreds, but since you are questioning if he is full boxer despite having papers it might just be enough to confirm he is 100% boxer... and you have the cash to do it, a DNA test could be fun :o)

Boxers are derived from bully breeds so it wouldn't be uncommon for a boxer to manifest bully traits. (boxers are said to have mastiff and bulldog in their lineage) Plus he is young, he may droop more when he is fully mature after 3 years old. I knew a female brindle boxer who eyes looked exactly like that and she came from a reputable breeder.

It is possible some breeders may secretly sneak in an american bulldog or outcross into their lines to make their dogs bigger or maybe if they were trying to add the white in and avoid the deafness? They are very close in look but much bigger.

Re: What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

Message edited 2/25/2013 6:50:13 PM.

Re: What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

As a side note to what strong Island just said...

Previously what Tara was talking about before... with how I work on preventing resource guarding with my pit mix...

I got a great tip from one of my trainers... She suggested that once you know you can take away a bone/toy/treat, you shouldn't constantly be doing it because you can actually create the problem and annoy the dog. And even if you can it doesn't mean that other people in the house can. Especially children...

So rather than constantly testing the dog by taking away bones/toys or putting your hand in food bowls it is better to ADD something great to the food bowls. If you approach the dog working hard on a bone/ toy you drop a high value treat. But do this ONLY IF the dog is not being aggressive or posturing in any way.

So basically when my Leia is working hard on her bone and I or anyone else walks up to her she will usually look up and wag her tail. I tell her she is a good girl and give her a treat. When my toddlers go up to her they give her treats or drop cheerios etc.

Same thing when she is eating. Rather that just sticking my hand in the bowl and pestering the dog, it is better to drop a bit of meat, hot dog, or cheese in the bowl (or near it if in the beginning you think it might escalate into a bite). Then you can work up to hands in the bowl once they learn the lesson that good things come from hands near bowls.

If you don't want to do people food... drop a really tasty treat like freeze dried liver or puperoni. I wouldn't bother with biscuits because the are not motivating enough. It needs to really get them excited. If they are salivating, it's probably a winner.

The most important thing to remember when doing this is that if the dog is acting defensively or aggressively then you do not reward that by giving treats because then you are reinforcing that is how you want them to behave.

I found this to be the best advice I have gotten from a trainer for avoiding resource guarding, because it gives the message we are not here to take your food/toy/bone we are here to deliver something awesome. Sometimes the best way to work out a problem is to avoid it altogether and not make it a confrontation.

Message edited 2/26/2013 12:44:10 PM.

Re: What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

Re: What would you do? Dog snapped/bit son.

Thx again everyone! All your advice is wonderful! Will update after we see the trainer on Sunday, hoping it goes well.