| Posted By |
Message |
| Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 >> |
JenniferEver
The Disney Lady
Member since 5/05 18163 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
it's really sad, and it's calling a lot of attention to the area. AGAIN. The times had an article about racism in Howard Beach with people saying it's more tolerant now than it was in 1986. I'm not sure that's true. According to the 2000 survey only 8 out of HB's 8000+ residents are black. I believe it, but it's kind of sad. it's one thing to be a homogenous community, but in my experience HB is a hotbed of racism. There are a lot of really backwards people in HB (though not nearly as abd at borad channel) and they are really interested in the homogeny of their neighborhood. I live in the next town (MUCH more diverse) and I've seen it on my own block. And I also know a lot of people who moved from OZP to HB to get away from the **********s. I hope this will wake people up.
I just think it's going to fall on deaf ears because there is this car theft thing and people are going to justify the behavior and the racism by saying, that black people were only in the neighborhood to commit crime, so the boys were right to beat him...or if not right, they were on the right track in thinking they didn't belong there.
|
Posted 6/30/05 1:02 PM  |
| |
|
Long Island Weddings
Long Island's Largest Bridal Resource |
SoinLove
Making big changes
Member since 5/05 16541 total posts
Name:
Kristin
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
I HATE reading about stuff like this 
|
| Posted 6/30/05 1:05 PM |
| |
|
JenniferEver
The Disney Lady
Member since 5/05 18163 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
I just hope he gets punished with the fulle xtent of the hate crime laws. Every time I hear this I think of Matthew Shepard.
|
| Posted 6/30/05 1:06 PM |
| |
|
QuoteTheRaven424
22 Months?!!!!
Member since 5/05 13659 total posts
Name:
And If That Isn't A True Blue Miracle
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
bump
|
| Posted 6/30/05 3:50 PM |
| |
|
Janice
Sweet Jessie Quinn
Member since 5/05 27567 total posts
Name:
Janice
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by CaptainCharisma424
all i am saying is that IF it was a measure to prevent riots in howard beach, then that's cool
my parents, my aunt/uncle and we live there, we do not want/need trouble
we were not involved, so we don't want to be the victims of any retaliation
I guess as long as it isn't your mother today visting you in the hospital with your skull crushed in all is cool.
And you are involved, this is your community. Didn't you say this happened minutes away from your home? Did bat boy come home from a softball game? Was that the reason he was traveling with a bat?
I agree I would not want a riot to start, but to make a victim out to be a thief is wrong.
|
| Posted 6/30/05 3:59 PM |
| |
|
QuoteTheRaven424
22 Months?!!!!
Member since 5/05 13659 total posts
Name:
And If That Isn't A True Blue Miracle
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by Janice
Posted by CaptainCharisma424
all i am saying is that IF it was a measure to prevent riots in howard beach, then that's cool
my parents, my aunt/uncle and we live there, we do not want/need trouble
we were not involved, so we don't want to be the victims of any retaliation
I guess as long as it isn't your mother today visting you in the hospital with your skull crushed in all is cool.
And you are involved, this is your community. Didn't you say this happened minutes away from your home? Did bat boy come home from a softball game? Was that the reason he was traveling with a bat?
I agree I would not want a riot to start, but to make a victim out to be a thief is wrong.
hey, i have to look out for #1
sorry to say, but that's nature's rule, not mine
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:02 PM |
| |
|
Elbee
Zanzibar
Member since 5/05 10767 total posts
Name:
Me
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by Janice
I agree I would not want a riot to start, but to make a victim out to be a thief is wrong.
How do you know that is false? If they didn't live there or live anywhere near there and weren't visiting a friend - what were they doing there at 3 a.m.????????????????????
Do I agree with the beatings? no way, no how ... but don't make the guy out to be an innocent victim when his friends admitted they were up to no good. Not that I'm saying he deserves it, but your posts indicate that the guy was an angel. Gimme a break.
Message edited 6/30/2005 4:24:39 PM.
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:23 PM |
| |
|
QuoteTheRaven424
22 Months?!!!!
Member since 5/05 13659 total posts
Name:
And If That Isn't A True Blue Miracle
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by Elbee
Posted by Janice
I agree I would not want a riot to start, but to make a victim out to be a thief is wrong.
How do you know that is false? If they didn't live there or live anywhere near there and weren't visiting a friend - what were they doing there at 3 a.m.????????????????????
Do I agree with the beatings? no way, no how ... but don't make the guy out to be an innocent victim when his friends admitted they were up to no good. Not that I'm saying he deserves it, but your posts indicate that the guy was an angel. Gimme a break.
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:26 PM |
| |
|
Janice
Sweet Jessie Quinn
Member since 5/05 27567 total posts
Name:
Janice
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by Elbee
Posted by Janice
I agree I would not want a riot to start, but to make a victim out to be a thief is wrong.
How do you know that is false? If they didn't live there or live anywhere near there and weren't visiting a friend - what were they doing there at 3 a.m.????????????????????
Do I agree with the beatings? no way, no how ... but don't make the guy out to be an innocent victim when his friends admitted they were up to no good. Not that I'm saying he deserves it, but your posts indicate that the guy was an angel. Gimme a break.
the paper said nothing about the victim being part of the car stealing plan, it said 2 out of the 3 were planning on stealing a car. The other 2 said it was not this guy. I never said this guy was an angel-but HELLO- he did not steal anything!! So he is not a thief. So what it was 3 am, do we have a curfew that I am unaware of?
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:32 PM |
| |
|
QuoteTheRaven424
22 Months?!!!!
Member since 5/05 13659 total posts
Name:
And If That Isn't A True Blue Miracle
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by Janice
Posted by Elbee
Posted by Janice
I agree I would not want a riot to start, but to make a victim out to be a thief is wrong.
How do you know that is false? If they didn't live there or live anywhere near there and weren't visiting a friend - what were they doing there at 3 a.m.????????????????????
Do I agree with the beatings? no way, no how ... but don't make the guy out to be an innocent victim when his friends admitted they were up to no good. Not that I'm saying he deserves it, but your posts indicate that the guy was an angel. Gimme a break.
the paper said nothing about the victim being part of the car stealing plan, it said 2 out of the 3 were planning on stealing a car. The other 2 said it was not this guy. I never said this guy was an angel-but HELLO- he did not steal anything!! So he is not a thief. So what it was 3 am, do we have a curfew that I am unaware of?
ok, so he wasn't part of the plan
so then why was he there???? to take notes???
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:33 PM |
| |
|
|
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by Elbee
Posted by Janice
I agree I would not want a riot to start, but to make a victim out to be a thief is wrong.
How do you know that is false? If they didn't live there or live anywhere near there and weren't visiting a friend - what were they doing there at 3 a.m.????????????????????
Do I agree with the beatings? no way, no how ... but don't make the guy out to be an innocent victim when his friends admitted they were up to no good. Not that I'm saying he deserves it, but your posts indicate that the guy was an angel. Gimme a break.
I agree- I feel like the media sometimes has trouble with shades of gray- the victim is always an angel, the perp is always evil. I have seen this myself when a former student was killed- someone shot him from behind, but he was a thug and up to his eyeballs in gang stuff, but all the newspaper accounts made him out to be an A-student and a good kid. The kid who was not beaten didn't deserve that, and the kid who beat him should be punished, but when you are involved in underhanded activities, bad things will happen.
Message edited 6/30/2005 4:34:38 PM.
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:33 PM |
| |
|
MrsERod
Praying for Everyone.
Member since 5/05 26170 total posts
Name:
MrsERod™®
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
i think we can all agree that no good could have come from them being out there at 3am. they were obviously not out there delivering the morning paper. but those guys sure as hell don't have ANY right whatsoever to beat him they way they did!!! no one has that right. if the shoe were on the other foot, then the black kid would be just as wrong!!
it's a no win situation.
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:38 PM |
| |
|
Janice
Sweet Jessie Quinn
Member since 5/05 27567 total posts
Name:
Janice
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by CaptainCharisma424
Posted by Janice
Posted by Elbee
Posted by Janice
I agree I would not want a riot to start, but to make a victim out to be a thief is wrong.
How do you know that is false? If they didn't live there or live anywhere near there and weren't visiting a friend - what were they doing there at 3 a.m.????????????????????
Do I agree with the beatings? no way, no how ... but don't make the guy out to be an innocent victim when his friends admitted they were up to no good. Not that I'm saying he deserves it, but your posts indicate that the guy was an angel. Gimme a break.
the paper said nothing about the victim being part of the car stealing plan, it said 2 out of the 3 were planning on stealing a car. The other 2 said it was not this guy. I never said this guy was an angel-but HELLO- he did not steal anything!! So he is not a thief. So what it was 3 am, do we have a curfew that I am unaware of?
ok, so he wasn't part of the plan
so then why was he there???? to take notes???
what does it matter? that is what I am saying. Nothing was stolen, he is innocent. An innocent man was beaten with a bat. Who cares if I call this guy innocent? Was there any reason for him to be beat with a bat? I am simply saying I hate the fact that this guy is being made out to be a thief, he is not one. This was a hate crime.
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:39 PM |
| |
|
QuoteTheRaven424
22 Months?!!!!
Member since 5/05 13659 total posts
Name:
And If That Isn't A True Blue Miracle
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by MrsERod
i think we can all agree that no good could have come from them being out there at 3am. they were obviously not out there delivering the morning paper. but those guys sure as hell don't have ANY right whatsoever to beat him they way they did!!! no one has that right. if the shoe were on the other foot, then the black kid would be just as wrong!!
it's a no win situation.
agreed, the outcome was wrong, i just hate that we are doing this "poor me" thing when these guys came into neighborhood looking for trouble
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:40 PM |
| |
|
QuoteTheRaven424
22 Months?!!!!
Member since 5/05 13659 total posts
Name:
And If That Isn't A True Blue Miracle
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by Janice
Posted by CaptainCharisma424
Posted by Janice
Posted by Elbee
Posted by Janice
I agree I would not want a riot to start, but to make a victim out to be a thief is wrong.
How do you know that is false? If they didn't live there or live anywhere near there and weren't visiting a friend - what were they doing there at 3 a.m.????????????????????
Do I agree with the beatings? no way, no how ... but don't make the guy out to be an innocent victim when his friends admitted they were up to no good. Not that I'm saying he deserves it, but your posts indicate that the guy was an angel. Gimme a break.
the paper said nothing about the victim being part of the car stealing plan, it said 2 out of the 3 were planning on stealing a car. The other 2 said it was not this guy. I never said this guy was an angel-but HELLO- he did not steal anything!! So he is not a thief. So what it was 3 am, do we have a curfew that I am unaware of?
ok, so he wasn't part of the plan
so then why was he there???? to take notes???
what does it matter? that is what I am saying. Nothing was stolen, he is innocent. An innocent man was beaten with a bat. Who cares if I call this guy innocent? Was there any reason for him to be beat with a bat? I am simply saying I hate the fact that this guy is being made out to be a thief, he is not one. This was a hate crime.
so an intent to steal means nothing to you?
so let's say you are walking down the street and i want to rape you, but i don't, that means if i get shot in the head, i should be portrayed as an innocent victim
i'm sorry but that logic is messed up
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:41 PM |
| |
|
Elbee
Zanzibar
Member since 5/05 10767 total posts
Name:
Me
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by CaptainCharisma424
Posted by MrsERod
i think we can all agree that no good could have come from them being out there at 3am. they were obviously not out there delivering the morning paper. but those guys sure as hell don't have ANY right whatsoever to beat him they way they did!!! no one has that right. if the shoe were on the other foot, then the black kid would be just as wrong!!
it's a no win situation.
agreed, the outcome was wrong, i just hate that we are doing this "poor me" thing when these guys came into neighborhood looking for trouble
Ding ding ding... you have hit the nail on the head.
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:42 PM |
| |
|
Janice
Sweet Jessie Quinn
Member since 5/05 27567 total posts
Name:
Janice
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by CaptainCharisma424
Posted by Janice
Posted by CaptainCharisma424
Posted by Janice
Posted by Elbee
Posted by Janice
I agree I would not want a riot to start, but to make a victim out to be a thief is wrong.
How do you know that is false? If they didn't live there or live anywhere near there and weren't visiting a friend - what were they doing there at 3 a.m.????????????????????
Do I agree with the beatings? no way, no how ... but don't make the guy out to be an innocent victim when his friends admitted they were up to no good. Not that I'm saying he deserves it, but your posts indicate that the guy was an angel. Gimme a break.
the paper said nothing about the victim being part of the car stealing plan, it said 2 out of the 3 were planning on stealing a car. The other 2 said it was not this guy. I never said this guy was an angel-but HELLO- he did not steal anything!! So he is not a thief. So what it was 3 am, do we have a curfew that I am unaware of?
ok, so he wasn't part of the plan
so then why was he there???? to take notes???
what does it matter? that is what I am saying. Nothing was stolen, he is innocent. An innocent man was beaten with a bat. Who cares if I call this guy innocent? Was there any reason for him to be beat with a bat? I am simply saying I hate the fact that this guy is being made out to be a thief, he is not one. This was a hate crime.
so an intent to steal means nothing to you?
so let's say you are walking down the street and i want to rape you, but i don't, that means if i get shot in the head, i should be portrayed as an innocent victim
i'm sorry but that logic is messed up
sorry don, my body has a much different value then an automobile. 
If you were driving around with 2 guys looking to steal a car, who then decide not to, and drive away, to then be clubbed in the head. sorry that is a victim. not innocent? what did he do?
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:44 PM |
| |
|
Elbee
Zanzibar
Member since 5/05 10767 total posts
Name:
Me
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by CaptainCharisma424
so an intent to steal means nothing to you?
so let's say you are walking down the street and i want to rape you, but i don't, that means if i get shot in the head, i should be portrayed as an innocent victim
i'm sorry but that logic is messed up
exactly. No one is saying the beating was right, it was wrong-wrong-WRONG. But the guy was up to no good also. And you actually believe his 2 friends wanted to steal a car and he was just a bystander with them? Please.
There are two issues here - the beating and the intent at car stealing ...
Message edited 6/30/2005 4:47:54 PM.
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:46 PM |
| |
|
|
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by Janice
If you were driving around with 2 guys looking to steal a car, who then decide not to, and drive away, to then be clubbed in the head. sorry that is a victim. not innocent? what did he do?
He's a victim, but had he made a better choice, he wouldn't have been beaten at all. If he knew his friends were going to steal a car, he'd have been charged by the police. In this case, it's all about intent.
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:47 PM |
| |
|
MrsERod
Praying for Everyone.
Member since 5/05 26170 total posts
Name:
MrsERod™®
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by CaptainCharisma424
Posted by MrsERod
i think we can all agree that no good could have come from them being out there at 3am. they were obviously not out there delivering the morning paper. but those guys sure as hell don't have ANY right whatsoever to beat him they way they did!!! no one has that right. if the shoe were on the other foot, then the black kid would be just as wrong!!
it's a no win situation.
agreed, the outcome was wrong, i just hate that we are doing this "poor me" thing when these guys came into neighborhood looking for trouble
true. but the bottom line is though, this is a hate crime. their actions were totally driven by this "what are these black guys doing in our hood?" mentality.
the black kids are "guilty" of conspiring to commit a crime (grand larceny) - while the white kids are "guilty" of something just as bad, if not worse. Hate. like i said before, it's a no win situation.
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:47 PM |
| |
|
Janice
Sweet Jessie Quinn
Member since 5/05 27567 total posts
Name:
Janice
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by Elbee
Posted by CaptainCharisma424
so an intent to steal means nothing to you?
so let's say you are walking down the street and i want to rape you, but i don't, that means if i get shot in the head, i should be portrayed as an innocent victim
i'm sorry but that logic is messed up
exactly. No one is saying the beating was right, it was wrong. But the guy was up to no good also. And you actually believ his 2 friends wanted to ssteal a car and he was just a bystander with them? Please.
so does that make the crime less bad?
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:47 PM |
| |
|
QuoteTheRaven424
22 Months?!!!!
Member since 5/05 13659 total posts
Name:
And If That Isn't A True Blue Miracle
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by Janice
Posted by CaptainCharisma424
Posted by Janice
Posted by CaptainCharisma424
Posted by Janice
Posted by Elbee
Posted by Janice
I agree I would not want a riot to start, but to make a victim out to be a thief is wrong.
How do you know that is false? If they didn't live there or live anywhere near there and weren't visiting a friend - what were they doing there at 3 a.m.????????????????????
Do I agree with the beatings? no way, no how ... but don't make the guy out to be an innocent victim when his friends admitted they were up to no good. Not that I'm saying he deserves it, but your posts indicate that the guy was an angel. Gimme a break.
the paper said nothing about the victim being part of the car stealing plan, it said 2 out of the 3 were planning on stealing a car. The other 2 said it was not this guy. I never said this guy was an angel-but HELLO- he did not steal anything!! So he is not a thief. So what it was 3 am, do we have a curfew that I am unaware of?
ok, so he wasn't part of the plan
so then why was he there???? to take notes???
what does it matter? that is what I am saying. Nothing was stolen, he is innocent. An innocent man was beaten with a bat. Who cares if I call this guy innocent? Was there any reason for him to be beat with a bat? I am simply saying I hate the fact that this guy is being made out to be a thief, he is not one. This was a hate crime.
so an intent to steal means nothing to you?
so let's say you are walking down the street and i want to rape you, but i don't, that means if i get shot in the head, i should be portrayed as an innocent victim
i'm sorry but that logic is messed up
sorry don, my body has a much different value then an automobile.
If you were driving around with 2 guys looking to steal a car, who then decide not to, and drive away, to then be clubbed in the head. sorry that is a victim. not innocent? what did he do?
first of all, how do you know he "decided not to"
we don't know why the stealing never came off
plus in the report, the 2 groups had a run in a few days before, so who knows
re: the rape example, it was just an example
all i am saying is this playing the victim card is wrong. And for Bloomberg, he's in an election year, the black vote is key, so of course he's gonna come out and make an opinion without knowing the full story.
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:48 PM |
| |
|
Janice
Sweet Jessie Quinn
Member since 5/05 27567 total posts
Name:
Janice
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by CaptainCharisma424
Posted by Janice
Posted by CaptainCharisma424
Posted by Janice
Posted by CaptainCharisma424
Posted by Janice
Posted by Elbee
Posted by Janice
I agree I would not want a riot to start, but to make a victim out to be a thief is wrong.
How do you know that is false? If they didn't live there or live anywhere near there and weren't visiting a friend - what were they doing there at 3 a.m.????????????????????
Do I agree with the beatings? no way, no how ... but don't make the guy out to be an innocent victim when his friends admitted they were up to no good. Not that I'm saying he deserves it, but your posts indicate that the guy was an angel. Gimme a break.
the paper said nothing about the victim being part of the car stealing plan, it said 2 out of the 3 were planning on stealing a car. The other 2 said it was not this guy. I never said this guy was an angel-but HELLO- he did not steal anything!! So he is not a thief. So what it was 3 am, do we have a curfew that I am unaware of?
ok, so he wasn't part of the plan
so then why was he there???? to take notes???
what does it matter? that is what I am saying. Nothing was stolen, he is innocent. An innocent man was beaten with a bat. Who cares if I call this guy innocent? Was there any reason for him to be beat with a bat? I am simply saying I hate the fact that this guy is being made out to be a thief, he is not one. This was a hate crime.
so an intent to steal means nothing to you?
so let's say you are walking down the street and i want to rape you, but i don't, that means if i get shot in the head, i should be portrayed as an innocent victim
i'm sorry but that logic is messed up
sorry don, my body has a much different value then an automobile.
If you were driving around with 2 guys looking to steal a car, who then decide not to, and drive away, to then be clubbed in the head. sorry that is a victim. not innocent? what did he do?
first of all, how do you know he "decided not to"
we don't know why the stealing never came off
plus in the report, the 2 groups had a run in a few days before, so who knows
re: the rape example, it was just an example
all i am saying is this playing the victim card is wrong. And for Bloomberg, he's in an election year, the black vote is key, so of course he's gonna come out and make an opinion without knowing the full story.
I guess the who what's and whys are not important to me. An unarmed man was clubbed by another while having racial slurs spoke to him. I have no tolerance, none what so ever.
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:51 PM |
| |
|
QuoteTheRaven424
22 Months?!!!!
Member since 5/05 13659 total posts
Name:
And If That Isn't A True Blue Miracle
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by Janice
Posted by CaptainCharisma424
Posted by Janice
Posted by CaptainCharisma424
Posted by Janice
Posted by CaptainCharisma424
Posted by Janice
Posted by Elbee
Posted by Janice
I agree I would not want a riot to start, but to make a victim out to be a thief is wrong.
How do you know that is false? If they didn't live there or live anywhere near there and weren't visiting a friend - what were they doing there at 3 a.m.????????????????????
Do I agree with the beatings? no way, no how ... but don't make the guy out to be an innocent victim when his friends admitted they were up to no good. Not that I'm saying he deserves it, but your posts indicate that the guy was an angel. Gimme a break.
the paper said nothing about the victim being part of the car stealing plan, it said 2 out of the 3 were planning on stealing a car. The other 2 said it was not this guy. I never said this guy was an angel-but HELLO- he did not steal anything!! So he is not a thief. So what it was 3 am, do we have a curfew that I am unaware of?
ok, so he wasn't part of the plan
so then why was he there???? to take notes???
what does it matter? that is what I am saying. Nothing was stolen, he is innocent. An innocent man was beaten with a bat. Who cares if I call this guy innocent? Was there any reason for him to be beat with a bat? I am simply saying I hate the fact that this guy is being made out to be a thief, he is not one. This was a hate crime.
so an intent to steal means nothing to you?
so let's say you are walking down the street and i want to rape you, but i don't, that means if i get shot in the head, i should be portrayed as an innocent victim
i'm sorry but that logic is messed up
sorry don, my body has a much different value then an automobile.
If you were driving around with 2 guys looking to steal a car, who then decide not to, and drive away, to then be clubbed in the head. sorry that is a victim. not innocent? what did he do?
first of all, how do you know he "decided not to"
we don't know why the stealing never came off
plus in the report, the 2 groups had a run in a few days before, so who knows
re: the rape example, it was just an example
all i am saying is this playing the victim card is wrong. And for Bloomberg, he's in an election year, the black vote is key, so of course he's gonna come out and make an opinion without knowing the full story.
I guess the who what's and whys are not important to me. An unarmed man was clubbed by another while having racial slurs spoke to him. I have no tolerance, none what so ever.
well IMO, that's a very linear way to look at it
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:54 PM |
| |
|
Elbee
Zanzibar
Member since 5/05 10767 total posts
Name:
Me
|
Re: Well, we made the front page again
Posted by Janice
so does that make the crime less bad?
NO IT DOESN'T!!! No one is saying that at all. I think EVERYONE on here agrees that the beatings were WRONG.
But stop calling the "victim" an innocent person just strolling through the neighborhood like la-di-da, when he wasn't ... he was staking out cars to steal. He is a theif or a potential thief ... Can't you see that part of it? You're on here professing his innocence when his friends admited to being in the neighborhood trying to steal a car!
So once again, the beating was WRONG and ILLEGAL and the people that did it should be PUNISHED. .
Message edited 6/30/2005 4:56:43 PM.
|
| Posted 6/30/05 4:56 PM |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 >> |
