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Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

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Erica
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by SweetTooth
ETA: You can't really compare a superintendent of a school district to the CEO of a private corporation. The CEO makes money based on the success of the corporation. If the corporation is in trouble financially the CEO loses his/her salary or job. If the corporation does well, the CEO earns a high salary. It doesn't work the same for public employees. School districts don't earn revenue. Yes, they are extremely important, I'm not arguing that at all, but its just not comparable. I do think they should earn a good salary, but not 100's of thousands a year plus incentives and benefits.



I'll preface this by saying that some of these salaries do seen high for me, but superintendents negotiate their salaries with the board and it is based on performance. There's not a profit, so their salaries can't be comparable, but they do create areas where tax payers want to move in. I've worked in SDs where the superintendent has really been instrumental to the success.

I know I wouldn't want that job, especially if it was capped at 125-175!!

I don't think it's quite apples v oranges, but maybe oranges v grapefruits.

Posted 3/2/11 1:18 PM
 
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lullabella
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by zuzuspetals

Posted by Mommy2Boys

Posted by Nifheim


To play devil's advocate - i think it might be somewhat unfair to those who are currently in the position. Saying hey your making 300K but I am now paying you 175K is extreme slashing of one's income. It would be more then fair to do it to a new hire. BUT, if you don't like it then get a new job. Also, people need to realize if they will do this to super's who is to say what will happen as a trickle down affect on any state worker.





One of the top paid superintendents is from Rockville Centre. Same superintendent that was there when DH was in school (he graduated 1996). So he's been making enough money off taxpayers for long enough.

I see what your saying about the trickle down effect...but the truth is some of these admins make more then the President of the US. That's crazy to me Chat Icon



President Bush made 400,000 a year with many additional incentives. Just want to say that with the highest paid super in Syosset is making less than the president. Also, there are many professions who make extremely competitive salaries and who do make more than the president of our country. I do believe that with the scrutiny on public education, it should be expected that the supers take pay cuts and freezes. I am not objecting that at all.


Interesting tip ... the inventor of silly bands made millions of dollars off of it. I am not mad, just jealous! hahah can you believe that? I am in the wrong field!



Yes but the tax payers are not paying the inventor of silly bands his salary?? KWIM. I think the greed running rampant within the education system is intolerable and I am glad Cuomo has the balls to address it. It is clearly broken and needs to be fixed. JMHO

Posted 3/2/11 1:20 PM
 

CookiePuss
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by mdn13



true! And we also have the some of the best schools in the nation so we must be doing something right.




Not necessarily true...

1 Talented and Gifted Dallas TX 14.938 28 100
2 Jefferson County IBS ** Irondale AL 12.721 10 100
3 Stanton College Prep ** Jacksonville FL 12.562 10 100
4 Science/Engineering Magnet Dallas TX 12.08 61 100
5 Corbett Corbett OR 11.391 22 73.9
6 BASIS Charter Tucson AZ 10.36 100
7 Signature School ** Evansville IN 9.962 10 84.9
8 Paxon School for Advanced Studies ** Jacksonville FL 9.513 14 76.1
9 Suncoast Community ** Riviera Beach FL 9.431 15 87.1
10 City Honors ** Buffalo NY 8.402 30 95
11 Oxford Academy Cypress CA 8.269 19 100
12 Science Academy of South Texas Mercedes TX 8.119 43 60
13 Academic Magnet North Charleston SC 8.066 6 100
14 Interlake ** Bellevue WA 7.865 22 45
15 North Hills Prep ** Irving TX 7.831 3 94.3
16 Center for Advanced Technologies St. Petersburg FL 7.575 20 100
17 Preuss UCSD La Jolla CA 7.484 100 100
18 Eastside Gainesville FL 7.326 42
19 Communication Arts San Antonio TX 7.198 16 74
20 Pacific Collegiate Santa Cruz CA 7.196 3 100

Not one LI HS is in the top 20. LINK To Newsweek Article Jericho comes in at #34.

Message edited 3/2/2011 1:23:10 PM.

Posted 3/2/11 1:22 PM
 

Ophelia
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remember, when Gulliver traveled....

Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

you know who else has some of the best school in the nation, every other STATE.

I did a check on 2010 top HS and the first NYS school to come up is #10, Buffalo.

the first LI school to come up in #34, Jericho.

I think it would be interesting to the what the superintendant, principles and teachers are making at the #1 school, in Texas.

Texas, Florida, and California had multiple schools in the top 30.

Message edited 3/2/2011 1:25:38 PM.

Posted 3/2/11 1:24 PM
 

Ophelia
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remember, when Gulliver traveled....

Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by morgie124

Posted by mdn13



true! And we also have the some of the best schools in the nation so we must be doing something right.




Not necessarily true...

1 Talented and Gifted Dallas TX 14.938 28 100
2 Jefferson County IBS ** Irondale AL 12.721 10 100
3 Stanton College Prep ** Jacksonville FL 12.562 10 100
4 Science/Engineering Magnet Dallas TX 12.08 61 100
5 Corbett Corbett OR 11.391 22 73.9
6 BASIS Charter Tucson AZ 10.36 100
7 Signature School ** Evansville IN 9.962 10 84.9
8 Paxon School for Advanced Studies ** Jacksonville FL 9.513 14 76.1
9 Suncoast Community ** Riviera Beach FL 9.431 15 87.1
10 City Honors ** Buffalo NY 8.402 30 95
11 Oxford Academy Cypress CA 8.269 19 100
12 Science Academy of South Texas Mercedes TX 8.119 43 60
13 Academic Magnet North Charleston SC 8.066 6 100
14 Interlake ** Bellevue WA 7.865 22 45
15 North Hills Prep ** Irving TX 7.831 3 94.3
16 Center for Advanced Technologies St. Petersburg FL 7.575 20 100
17 Preuss UCSD La Jolla CA 7.484 100 100
18 Eastside Gainesville FL 7.326 42
19 Communication Arts San Antonio TX 7.198 16 74
20 Pacific Collegiate Santa Cruz CA 7.196 3 100

Not one LI HS is in the top 20. LINK To Newsweek Article Jericho comes in at #34.



OMG I love you. I looked this up too! Chat Icon Chat Icon

Posted 3/2/11 1:25 PM
 

lululu
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by morgie124

Posted by mdn13



true! And we also have the some of the best schools in the nation so we must be doing something right.




Not necessarily true...

1 Talented and Gifted Dallas TX 14.938 28 100
2 Jefferson County IBS ** Irondale AL 12.721 10 100
3 Stanton College Prep ** Jacksonville FL 12.562 10 100
4 Science/Engineering Magnet Dallas TX 12.08 61 100
5 Corbett Corbett OR 11.391 22 73.9
6 BASIS Charter Tucson AZ 10.36 100
7 Signature School ** Evansville IN 9.962 10 84.9
8 Paxon School for Advanced Studies ** Jacksonville FL 9.513 14 76.1
9 Suncoast Community ** Riviera Beach FL 9.431 15 87.1
10 City Honors ** Buffalo NY 8.402 30 95
11 Oxford Academy Cypress CA 8.269 19 100
12 Science Academy of South Texas Mercedes TX 8.119 43 60
13 Academic Magnet North Charleston SC 8.066 6 100
14 Interlake ** Bellevue WA 7.865 22 45
15 North Hills Prep ** Irving TX 7.831 3 94.3
16 Center for Advanced Technologies St. Petersburg FL 7.575 20 100
17 Preuss UCSD La Jolla CA 7.484 100 100
18 Eastside Gainesville FL 7.326 42
19 Communication Arts San Antonio TX 7.198 16 74
20 Pacific Collegiate Santa Cruz CA 7.196 3 100

Not one LI HS is in the top 20. LINK To Newsweek Article Jericho comes in at #34.



Most of these are private schools though....

Posted 3/2/11 2:08 PM
 

CookiePuss
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by lululu

Posted by morgie124

Posted by mdn13



true! And we also have the some of the best schools in the nation so we must be doing something right.




Not necessarily true...

1 Talented and Gifted Dallas TX 14.938 28 100
2 Jefferson County IBS ** Irondale AL 12.721 10 100
3 Stanton College Prep ** Jacksonville FL 12.562 10 100
4 Science/Engineering Magnet Dallas TX 12.08 61 100
5 Corbett Corbett OR 11.391 22 73.9
6 BASIS Charter Tucson AZ 10.36 100
7 Signature School ** Evansville IN 9.962 10 84.9
8 Paxon School for Advanced Studies ** Jacksonville FL 9.513 14 76.1
9 Suncoast Community ** Riviera Beach FL 9.431 15 87.1
10 City Honors ** Buffalo NY 8.402 30 95
11 Oxford Academy Cypress CA 8.269 19 100
12 Science Academy of South Texas Mercedes TX 8.119 43 60
13 Academic Magnet North Charleston SC 8.066 6 100
14 Interlake ** Bellevue WA 7.865 22 45
15 North Hills Prep ** Irving TX 7.831 3 94.3
16 Center for Advanced Technologies St. Petersburg FL 7.575 20 100
17 Preuss UCSD La Jolla CA 7.484 100 100
18 Eastside Gainesville FL 7.326 42
19 Communication Arts San Antonio TX 7.198 16 74
20 Pacific Collegiate Santa Cruz CA 7.196 3 100

Not one LI HS is in the top 20. LINK To Newsweek Article Jericho comes in at #34.



Most of these are private schools though....



While that is true since only 6% of the list are public schools it still means that LI does not have some of the best school in the nation.

Posted 3/2/11 2:16 PM
 

CookiePuss
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Here is Newsweek's elite public HS and not one in this article is on LI...Link to article

Message edited 3/2/2011 2:19:58 PM.

Posted 3/2/11 2:19 PM
 

lululu
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by morgie124


While that is true since only 6% of the list are public schools it still means that LI does not have some of the best school in the nation.



I think if you look at the number of high schools from LI that made the list, it's fair to say that Long Island has some of the best public high schools in the country, especially considering there are over 40 public high schools on that list on Long Island and less than 6% of the list is public schools!

Maybe you can't say LI has the best schools if you include private schools but IMHO trying to compare public and private schools is not appropriate.

This is totally off the topic though - I still think that LI superintendents are overpaid!

Posted 3/2/11 2:44 PM
 

emilylives
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by lululu

Posted by morgie124


While that is true since only 6% of the list are public schools it still means that LI does not have some of the best school in the nation.



I think if you look at the number of high schools from LI that made the list, it's fair to say that Long Island has some of the best public high schools in the country, especially considering there are over 40 public high schools on that list on Long Island and less than 6% of the list is public schools!

Maybe you can't say LI has the best schools if you include private schools but IMHO trying to compare public and private schools is not appropriate.

This is totally off the topic though - I still think that LI superintendents are overpaid!



totally agree. this makes a more relevant case, though:

Posted by morgie124

Here is Newsweek's elite public HS and not one in this article is on LI...Link to article

Message edited 3/2/2011 2:54:52 PM.

Posted 3/2/11 2:52 PM
 

CookiePuss
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by lululu

Posted by morgie124


While that is true since only 6% of the list are public schools it still means that LI does not have some of the best school in the nation.



I think if you look at the number of high schools from LI that made the list, it's fair to say that Long Island has some of the best public high schools in the country, especially considering there are over 40 public high schools on that list on Long Island and less than 6% of the list is public schools!

Maybe you can't say LI has the best schools if you include private schools but IMHO trying to compare public and private schools is not appropriate.

This is totally off the topic though - I still think that LI superintendents are overpaid!



It's only relevant because of the argument that we have some of the best schools in the nation so our superintendents deserve such high salaries when, in fact, irregardless of being pubic or private, we don't have the best school in the nation. That is why I believe the above is relevant.

Not only do I believe that LI schools are top heavy in administration and that they can be over paid...they are also allowed to double dip which I believe is criminal.

Message edited 3/2/2011 3:03:06 PM.

Posted 3/2/11 3:02 PM
 

KrisT
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by morgie124

Here is Newsweek's elite public HS and not one in this article is on LI...Link to article



I also wanted to add also that most of the public high schools on this list have a selection process, which is different from the public high schools on LI. Again, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the salary issue or saying that all of the schools on LI are the "best", but I'm not really sure if apples are being compared to apples with some of these rankings. And, I'm not even sure if I agree with all of these "rankings" since what one parents considers a school to be "good" is not necessarily the same as another parent's school.

ETA: I'm not sure if I was clear but I meant that I am not sure if I would compare a regular public school on LI with a public school that has a selection process. They seem different to me.

Message edited 3/2/2011 3:07:36 PM.

Posted 3/2/11 3:03 PM
 

lululu
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by morgie124

Posted by lululu

Posted by morgie124


While that is true since only 6% of the list are public schools it still means that LI does not have some of the best school in the nation.



I think if you look at the number of high schools from LI that made the list, it's fair to say that Long Island has some of the best public high schools in the country, especially considering there are over 40 public high schools on that list on Long Island and less than 6% of the list is public schools!

Maybe you can't say LI has the best schools if you include private schools but IMHO trying to compare public and private schools is not appropriate.

This is totally off the topic though - I still think that LI superintendents are overpaid!



It's only relevant because of the argument that we have some of the best schools in the nation so our superintendents deserve such high salaries when, in fact, irregardless of being pubic or private, we don't have the best school in the nation. That is why I believe the above is relevant.

Not only do I believe that LI schools are top heavy in administration and that they can be over paid...they are also allowed to double dip which I believe is criminal.



I just think you are approaching the argument from the wrong angle, because the fact of the matter is, we do have some of the best public high schools in the nation (aside from schools that you need to test into).

I agree that there are many, many problems with the school systems on LI, but you can't fight the fact that they are some of the best in the nation. Still, I think that we could get GREAT superintendents for $175k per year and these people in administration who think all the good talent will leave LI at these salaries are out of their mind. LI educators are some of the best paid in the country.

Posted 3/2/11 3:18 PM
 

CookiePuss
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by lululu

Posted by morgie124
edit for space



I just think you are approaching the argument from the wrong angle, because the fact of the matter is, we do have some of the best public high schools in the nation (aside from schools that you need to test into).

I agree that there are many, many problems with the school systems on LI, but you can't fight the fact that they are some of the best in the nation. Still, I think that we could get GREAT superintendents for $175k per year and these people in administration who think all the good talent will leave LI at these salaries are out of their mind. LI educators are some of the best paid in the country.



What makes LI schools some of the best in the country? Under what guidelines? What are you basing your argument on? I have googled this and looked through the first 2 search results and I don't see any study that supports this. I would love to see some report that does show that we get our tax $$ worth.

ETA...I would actually love to be proved wrong on this. I pay over 11k in property taxes and more then 70% go towards the school taxes. I have a vested interest in being wrong so I would love to be wrong.

Message edited 3/2/2011 3:28:59 PM.

Posted 3/2/11 3:26 PM
 

MichLiz213
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..


Posted by morgie124

Not only do I believe that LI schools are top heavy in administration and that they can be over paid...they are also allowed to double dip which I believe is criminal.



Absolutely. I was a K leave replacement in a district the year their superintendent was retiring. That same superintendent is now the interim superintendent of another school district. I'm sure he's collecting his pension and earning a paycheck on top of it.

Posted 3/2/11 5:17 PM
 

nov04libride
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

My uncle is now a Superintendent at a top LI district, after serving as Principal for many years. With the cap, he would be making less than he did as Principal.

I'm not saying there should not be a cap, but it should be applied at all levels--Asst Superintendents, Principals, and teachers, or else you will have many people at lower levels making significantly more than the highest level positions.

Posted 3/2/11 5:25 PM
 

MrsKS
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by MichLiz213


Posted by morgie124

Not only do I believe that LI schools are top heavy in administration and that they can be over paid...they are also allowed to double dip which I believe is criminal.



Absolutely. I was a K leave replacement in a district the year their superintendent was retiring. That same superintendent is now the interim superintendent of another school district. I'm sure he's collecting his pension and earning a paycheck on top of it.



that really shouldn't be allowed.

clearly there are a lot of holes in this system.

Message edited 3/2/2011 6:33:51 PM.

Posted 3/2/11 6:33 PM
 

MrsKS
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by nov04libride

My uncle is now a Superintendent at a top LI district, after serving as Principal for many years. With the cap, he would be making less than he did as Principal.

I'm not saying there should not be a cap, but it should be applied at all levels--Asst Superintendents, Principals, and teachers, or else you will have many people at lower levels making significantly more than the highest level positions.



I agree. they should all have pay ranges and caps.

But I'm still glad they are at least starting somewhere.

Posted 3/2/11 6:34 PM
 

LotsaLuv
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F

Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Amen to Cuomo

Posted 3/2/11 6:40 PM
 

LL514
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by MrsKS

Posted by LL514

Posted by CathyB

Chat Icon Chat Icon Chat Icon Chat Icon

I still think they need to combine districts around here to gain greater economies of scale. Nassau & Suffolk counties have almost as many districts (126) as the rest of the entire state does (193).




maybe because there are a lot more people in nassau and suffolk than the rest of the state



hmm... are you including the city and the rest of the state together in this calculation??

I'm not a population expert.. but something tells me there isn't more people in nassau and suffolk than the entire rest of the state. I could be wrong about that bc again I'm not a population expert... but that just doesn't seem accurate.

ETA: I had to look this up because it had me curious...
nassau - 1,334,544
suffolk - 1,419,369

bklyn - 2,465,326
queens - 2,229,379

nystate - 18,976,457

these figures are as of the 2000 census. granted that's about 11 years ago, but unless LI is popping babies out in litters.... I'm sure the ratios are still pretty much the same.

If you count bklyn and queens as part of that equation it still doesn't equal half of the state population (7,448,618)... but I don't think they should be added in this because the comment is specifically about nassau and suffolk county school districts and those numbers don't include queens or bklyn.

so no, sorry but there are not a lot more people in suffolk and nassau than the rest of the state.

ETA again: how many school districts are in queens and bklyn? Because those areas are def more heavily populated than Nassau and Suffolk.



i was not including the city in my statement. and to clarify, i meant in terms of people per square mile.

and in addition to that, compare the performance to nassau and suffolk schools to those in albany, syracuse etc.
they're results are no where near ours. why would we want to change our districts to be like lower performing ones?

Posted 3/2/11 6:43 PM
 

LL514
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by morgie124

Posted by mdn13



true! And we also have the some of the best schools in the nation so we must be doing something right.




Not necessarily true...

1 Talented and Gifted Dallas TX 14.938 28 100
2 Jefferson County IBS ** Irondale AL 12.721 10 100
3 Stanton College Prep ** Jacksonville FL 12.562 10 100
4 Science/Engineering Magnet Dallas TX 12.08 61 100
5 Corbett Corbett OR 11.391 22 73.9
6 BASIS Charter Tucson AZ 10.36 100
7 Signature School ** Evansville IN 9.962 10 84.9
8 Paxon School for Advanced Studies ** Jacksonville FL 9.513 14 76.1
9 Suncoast Community ** Riviera Beach FL 9.431 15 87.1
10 City Honors ** Buffalo NY 8.402 30 95
11 Oxford Academy Cypress CA 8.269 19 100
12 Science Academy of South Texas Mercedes TX 8.119 43 60
13 Academic Magnet North Charleston SC 8.066 6 100
14 Interlake ** Bellevue WA 7.865 22 45
15 North Hills Prep ** Irving TX 7.831 3 94.3
16 Center for Advanced Technologies St. Petersburg FL 7.575 20 100
17 Preuss UCSD La Jolla CA 7.484 100 100
18 Eastside Gainesville FL 7.326 42
19 Communication Arts San Antonio TX 7.198 16 74
20 Pacific Collegiate Santa Cruz CA 7.196 3 100

Not one LI HS is in the top 20. LINK To Newsweek Article Jericho comes in at #34.



do you know how they come up with this list?

it compares the number of AP or IB exams students take and divides it by the total number of seniors. this ratio is how they create this list.
to me what makes a great school is a hell of a lot more than how many kids are pushed into an AP course.

Message edited 3/2/2011 6:59:34 PM.

Posted 3/2/11 6:53 PM
 

Palebride
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by nov04libride

My uncle is now a Superintendent at a top LI district, after serving as Principal for many years. With the cap, he would be making less than he did as Principal.

I'm not saying there should not be a cap, but it should be applied at all levels--Asst Superintendents, Principals, and teachers, or else you will have many people at lower levels making significantly more than the highest level positions.



That was my thought as well! There are teachers in my school who would be making close to or more than the Superintendent if this was the case. And the Superintendent's job is NOT an easy one! I wouldn't do it for that amount if I could make almost as much as a teacher.

Posted 3/2/11 7:12 PM
 

lululu
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by morgie124

Posted by lululu

Posted by morgie124
edit for space



I just think you are approaching the argument from the wrong angle, because the fact of the matter is, we do have some of the best public high schools in the nation (aside from schools that you need to test into).

I agree that there are many, many problems with the school systems on LI, but you can't fight the fact that they are some of the best in the nation. Still, I think that we could get GREAT superintendents for $175k per year and these people in administration who think all the good talent will leave LI at these salaries are out of their mind. LI educators are some of the best paid in the country.



What makes LI schools some of the best in the country? Under what guidelines? What are you basing your argument on? I have googled this and looked through the first 2 search results and I don't see any study that supports this. I would love to see some report that does show that we get our tax $$ worth.

ETA...I would actually love to be proved wrong on this. I pay over 11k in property taxes and more then 70% go towards the school taxes. I have a vested interest in being wrong so I would love to be wrong.



Well, first, if you look at the list of top high schools, over 40 of long islands public high schools made that list. To me, that says something. But beyond that, compare the graduation rates and rates of students going on to two and four year colleges. Long Islands has very high ratios. Look at special ed services that are available to students here that aren't available elsewhere. Take a look at the sports programs and extracurricular activities offered. I think that if you compare it to many other areas you will find you get a good amount for your money. However, we are also going to pay more in taxes because our teachers are among the highest paid in the nation. And that's because it's expensive to live here and so you need to pay more than other areas.

I don't think you are going to find a study comparing all of long island to the rest of the country because I doubt that anyone cares enough to compare all of long island to the rest of the country. Most people are just concerned with the district that they are in and you can compare your individual district to nationwide averages, statewide averages and what not. I wish I could remember where, but I found all of these sites when I was searching for a home and researched it thoroughly.

Posted 3/2/11 7:25 PM
 

WishingforBaby
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by Erica

I'll preface this by saying that some of these salaries do seen high for me, but superintendents negotiate their salaries with the board and it is based on performance. There's not a profit, so their salaries can't be comparable, but they do create areas where tax payers want to move in. I've worked in SDs where the superintendent has really been instrumental to the success.
QUOTE]

Let me preface by saying I agree some superintendent's salaries are a bit outrageous, however who's to blame for that?? I don't think enough people are focusing on this point....superintendent's salaries are negotiated by your board of ed - your elected residents! I realize people are outraged seeing these salaries however, what have you done to stop them from getting this high? Your local board of ed approved the salaries for the superintendent, administration, teachers and all other employees of the school district.

If you feel passionately about this topic, talk to your board of ed...they're the ones that approved these decisions.

Posted 3/2/11 8:27 PM
 

melbalalala
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Re: Cuomo wants to cap Superintendent Salaries..

Posted by morgie124

While that is true since only 6% of the list are public schools it still means that LI does not have some of the best school in the nation.



I'm so glad people are saying this now... whenever I see people justify ridiculously high teacher/admin salaries on LI with this I Chat Icon

Yes, the schools are very good.. but top in the nation? Not so much..

Posted 3/3/11 6:53 AM
 
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ACM Basement Waterproofing
Travel Tom

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