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A question for Trump supporters
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JSDB
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Member since 1/13 1329 total posts
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Re: A question for Trump supporters
I'm the OP. I'm not necessarily looking for Trump supporters to set out their reasons for supporting him (but you are welcome to share) or for people to attack one another. I was more curious if you would support Trump no matter what, or if there is something he could say or do that would make you say "I just can't support him" -- I know for some people the back and forth with Khan's parents pushed them over the edge. For others it was mocking the disabled reporter. What if it came out that he abused animals? Would that change your vote? What if e-mails were leaked that he had no desire to be president and was running for publicity/to see how far he could get? What if he mocked cancer patients? What if he said woman have no right to hold political office and belong at home as housewives? Just playing a little "what if" game because honestly, this guy seems to be like teflon -- nothing he can do or say really changes anything. I remember him saying something about shooting someone in public and not losing votes and it almost seems like the truth!
Although, on the flip side, it's hard to think what Hillary would have to do at this point to lose my vote in this election. It's hard to isolate that breaking point...
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Posted 8/2/16 3:20 PM  |
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ElizaRags35
My 2 Girls
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Re: A question for Trump supporters
Posted by chilltocam
Posted by Diane
I don't have to justify why I am voting for him to anyone on here. I don't ask you why you are voting for Hillary...nor do I care. It's your choice. I don't bash you for your decision. So leave ours alone.
Enough said!!!!!!!
Holy crap -just calm down. Of course you don't have to justify anything you do. This was a legitimate question put out there by someone who is truly interested in trying to understand people who thing differently than she does. This is a real question that many (including myself) have had, and there have been some very well thought out answers on here, that some of us appreciate. If you don't want to answer, then don't. No need to get all twisted. [/QUOTE
Amen
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| Posted 8/2/16 3:20 PM |
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Kitten1929
LIF Adult
Member since 1/13 6040 total posts
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A question for Trump supporters
I'm worried that his ego, his narcissistic need to be the kid in the sandbox with the most toys, will have a devastating impact on our future. My kid is not going to grow up during a war, and I fear he will piss off every world leader possible just because he can't learn to STFU every now and then. He thinks everything is a game, like a strategy where he is smarter than everyone else, and that kind of hubris scares me.
And say what you want about HRC but she devoted her life to politics (both good and bad) but at least she doesn't go around insulting people and acting like an @sshole just because she has an audience.
Message edited 8/2/2016 3:29:05 PM.
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| Posted 8/2/16 3:27 PM |
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JennP
LIF Adult
Member since 10/06 3986 total posts
Name:
Jenn
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Re: A question for Trump supporters
Posted by ChilisWife
Without trashing either candidate - which is very easy to do but not the OP's question - I will go out on a limb and list a few of Trump's views that appeal to me:
I think as a country we should give people the TOOLS they need to succeed and then LET THEM succeed! We all know the story about giving a man a fish vs teaching a man to fish.
Thank you so much for this.
I edited it for space but I appreciate everything you said.
I have a follow up for you or anyone who agrees with you, if you'd indulge me.
I am genuinely trying to understand parts of the Republican platform. When I say parts, I mean that I will never, ever agree with the social agenda (against marriage equality, etc.) but there are issues that I definitely see shades of gray on - immigration, etc.
So...when you say the "tools they need" would you mind describing what you mean by that?
I ask because I agree with that very same sentence and I'm assuming we disagree on what the tools are but I figured I'd ask rather than assume.
To me, "giving people TOOLS to succeed" is a very Democratic value and I believe they've made many efforts to do just that - equal pay laws, paid parental leave, tuition assistance, etc. - that have been repeated thwarted by Republicans.
I am honestly trying to figure out what the Republicans have to offer young people trying to make it today.
It may come down to a fundamental disagreement but I would love to hear more.
FWIW I really like this thread. Taking Trump and HRC out of the equation for a moment allow us to really talk about the issues.
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| Posted 8/2/16 3:28 PM |
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ElizaRags35
My 2 Girls
Member since 2/09 20494 total posts
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Re: A question for Trump supporters
Posted by secretlyTTCagain
Posted by MrsPJB2007
Posted by NYCGirl80
Posted by Xelindrya
First she's against same sex marriage then she's for it. She says what ever suits the vote. But you worry about Trumps words?
Sorry, but you're inaccurate here. Originally, Hillary said she would leave it to the states, and if the state supported it, then she would do. Separation of state and federal powers.
She was never OPPOSED to it.
I can't stand either candidate - but I will say that Hillary flip-flopped on this. In various speeches from 2002-2004 she defines marriage as between a man and a woman only. She was definitely against it at one point and now that it's gotten so much support, she's for it.
[
This doesnt speak to my initial post about Trump but I just wanted to say that it's possible that her position legitimately changed over time. When DH and I first met in late 2002 he didnt believe in gay marriage. We would debate it over and over in the dining hall and over time I wore him down, he met gay friends in college, and he changed his position after a few years. He is now 100% in favor of gay rights, gay marriage, the works. A lot can happen over 12-14 years. It doesn't necessarily make you a flip flopper, it means sometimes you are open to new and progressive ideas.
Completely agree. I'm more concerned with constant back and forth flip flopping than someone changing positions over the course of a few years as the world changes.
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| Posted 8/2/16 3:30 PM |
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GoldenRod
10 years on LIF!
Member since 11/06 26792 total posts
Name:
Shawn
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Re: A question for Trump supporters
One option nobody seems to talk about for Republicans is to vote for Clinton, but also vote all Republican down the ticket.
That would allow the law-makers to make laws more in line with what you would like to see, and also not have (insert descriptive terms here) Donald representing the country.
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| Posted 8/2/16 3:33 PM |
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JSDB
<3
Member since 1/13 1329 total posts
Name:
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Re: A question for Trump supporters
Posted by GoldenRod
One option nobody seems to talk about for Republicans is to vote for Clinton, but also vote all Republican down the ticket.
That would allow the law-makers to make laws more in line with what you would like to see, and also not have (insert descriptive terms here) Donald representing the country.
This is what many of my republican friends are doing. They figure this way Hillary is in charge but her hands are tied when it comes to passing more progressive changes. It will be very interesting to see how the Congressional races play out. Will anti-Trump republicans and anti-Hillary dems just stay home and not vote at all? Will more republicans come out to vote because they anticipate Hillary will win and want to avoid losing the Senate? Will people who dont normally vote come out to avoid a Trump presidency and then vote in the other elections as well? Will be very interesting
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| Posted 8/2/16 3:37 PM |
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ChilisWife
God Bless America
Member since 5/05 3571 total posts
Name:
A.K.
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Re: A question for Trump supporters
JennP - I am happy to indulge you with my thoughts on that issue. :)
First of all, I am not a Republican. I am independent. I am fiscally and economically very conservative but socially very liberal. I really like Gary Johnson actually and he is not off the table for my vote. So yeah, I dont agree with Republican social policies but I definitely dont agree with Democratic economic policies. I also think Trump is quite liberal as far as "Republicans" go.
As for what I mean by the "tools." I think the government's job is to try to make a level playing field for everyone. To provide access to assistance and education to all genders, all races, all economic class levels. Yes, that includes the items you mention above. Give everyone ACCESS. Make everyone able to start from the same or similar starting line.
However, then the responsibility shifts to the individual. What you do with that opportunity. How motivated are you? How much are you willing to sacrifice? How hard are you willing to work? There must be a personal contribution! And I think this is where people go astray and start to separate into those that feel "entitled" to everything, based on nothing.
It is NOT the government's job to bail people out from the consequences of their actions or inactions. It is NOT the government's job to enable bad choices. Most importantly, it is not the government's job to make sure every person is exactly equal and gets everything they want! Sounds simple but I think sometimes we get lost in that belief.
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| Posted 8/2/16 4:41 PM |
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pumpkinmom
LIF Adult
Member since 5/12 2911 total posts
Name:
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Re: A question for Trump supporters
If one of the candidates peeled off their skin and revealed they were a lizard, I wouldn't vote for them.
Seriously, I don't like posting about politics. I just want to encourage everyone to carefully look at each candidate and what they say about the issues important to you. Think about how their financial policies will affect you. Don't worry about why someone else is voting a certain way - they are not you. I can guarantee most people will not agree completely with either candidate, but you can decide what is more important to you. Don't let the media, facebook, coworkers, friends, or LIF make your decision.
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| Posted 8/2/16 4:43 PM |
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ap123
LIF Infant
Member since 10/10 268 total posts
Name:
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Re: A question for Trump supporters
Posted by ChilisWife
JennP - I am happy to indulge you with my thoughts on that issue. :)
First of all, I am not a Republican. I am independent. I am fiscally and economically very conservative but socially very liberal. I really like Gary Johnson actually and he is not off the table for my vote. So yeah, I dont agree with Republican social policies but I definitely dont agree with Democratic economic policies. I also think Trump is quite liberal as far as "Republicans" go.
As for what I mean by the "tools." I think the government's job is to try to make a level playing field for everyone. To provide access to assistance and education to all genders, all races, all economic class levels. Yes, that includes the items you mention above. Give everyone ACCESS. Make everyone able to start from the same or similar starting line.
However, then the responsibility shifts to the individual. What you do with that opportunity. How motivated are you? How much are you willing to sacrifice? How hard are you willing to work? There must be a personal contribution! And I think this is where people go astray and start to separate into those that feel "entitled" to everything, based on nothing.
It is NOT the government's job to bail people out from the consequences of their actions or inactions. It is NOT the government's job to enable bad choices. Most importantly, it is not the government's job to make sure every person is exactly equal and gets everything they want! Sounds simple but I think sometimes we get lost in that belief.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. I don't want to vote for Trump, but I can't vote for Hillary when she is in favor of providing everyone with an income below $125k with free in-state tuition. I can't imagine the tax increase that would be required to actually do that.
It is those types of programs that she supports that make me feel like I have to vote for Trump, even though I agree he is not a good choice in many ways.
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| Posted 8/2/16 5:07 PM |
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JennP
LIF Adult
Member since 10/06 3986 total posts
Name:
Jenn
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Re: A question for Trump supporters
Posted by ChilisWife
JennP - I am happy to indulge you with my thoughts on that issue. :)
First of all, I am not a Republican. I am independent. I am fiscally and economically very conservative but socially very liberal. I really like Gary Johnson actually and he is not off the table for my vote. So yeah, I dont agree with Republican social policies but I definitely dont agree with Democratic economic policies. I also think Trump is quite liberal as far as "Republicans" go.
As for what I mean by the "tools." I think the government's job is to try to make a level playing field for everyone. To provide access to assistance and education to all genders, all races, all economic class levels. Yes, that includes the items you mention above. Give everyone ACCESS. Make everyone able to start from the same or similar starting line.
However, then the responsibility shifts to the individual. What you do with that opportunity. How motivated are you? How much are you willing to sacrifice? How hard are you willing to work? There must be a personal contribution! And I think this is where people go astray and start to separate into those that feel "entitled" to everything, based on nothing.
It is NOT the government's job to bail people out from the consequences of their actions or inactions. It is NOT the government's job to enable bad choices. Most importantly, it is not the government's job to make sure every person is exactly equal and gets everything they want! Sounds simple but I think sometimes we get lost in that belief.
Thank you so much for sharing!
I wonder if you'll indulge me further (and of course this goes for anyone who agrees with Chiliswife.)
Since you say you disagree with the Democratic economic plan, I am inferring that you think they are "enabling bad choices." Can you explain to me how you think they do that? How they bail people out?
The only entities I have seen bailed out in recent years, IMO, are big banks and corporations.
Again, I am asking honestly. Truly. I am trying to see the differences. Because I'm relatively liberal economically and you haven't said a single thing I disagree with.
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| Posted 8/2/16 5:07 PM |
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ElizaRags35
My 2 Girls
Member since 2/09 20494 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: A question for Trump supporters
Posted by ap123
Posted by ChilisWife
JennP - I am happy to indulge you with my thoughts on that issue. :)
First of all, I am not a Republican. I am independent. I am fiscally and economically very conservative but socially very liberal. I really like Gary Johnson actually and he is not off the table for my vote. So yeah, I dont agree with Republican social policies but I definitely dont agree with Democratic economic policies. I also think Trump is quite liberal as far as "Republicans" go.
As for what I mean by the "tools." I think the government's job is to try to make a level playing field for everyone. To provide access to assistance and education to all genders, all races, all economic class levels. Yes, that includes the items you mention above. Give everyone ACCESS. Make everyone able to start from the same or similar starting line.
However, then the responsibility shifts to the individual. What you do with that opportunity. How motivated are you? How much are you willing to sacrifice? How hard are you willing to work? There must be a personal contribution! And I think this is where people go astray and start to separate into those that feel "entitled" to everything, based on nothing.
It is NOT the government's job to bail people out from the consequences of their actions or inactions. It is NOT the government's job to enable bad choices. Most importantly, it is not the government's job to make sure every person is exactly equal and gets everything they want! Sounds simple but I think sometimes we get lost in that belief.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. I don't want to vote for Trump, but I can't vote for Hillary when she is in favor of providing everyone with an income below $125k with free in-state tuition. I can't imagine the tax increase that would be required to actually do that.
It is those types of programs that she supports that make me feel like I have to vote for Trump, even though I agree he is not a good choice in many ways.
I see what you're saying but being in favor of something doesn't mean it'll happen, right? And I think it would be pretty unlikely that it'll happen. Like Trump wants to build a wall but making him President wouldn't automatically make that happen, right?
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| Posted 8/2/16 5:24 PM |
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ap123
LIF Infant
Member since 10/10 268 total posts
Name:
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Re: A question for Trump supporters
Posted by ElizaRags35
Posted by ap123
Posted by ChilisWife
JennP - I am happy to indulge you with my thoughts on that issue. :)
First of all, I am not a Republican. I am independent. I am fiscally and economically very conservative but socially very liberal. I really like Gary Johnson actually and he is not off the table for my vote. So yeah, I dont agree with Republican social policies but I definitely dont agree with Democratic economic policies. I also think Trump is quite liberal as far as "Republicans" go.
As for what I mean by the "tools." I think the government's job is to try to make a level playing field for everyone. To provide access to assistance and education to all genders, all races, all economic class levels. Yes, that includes the items you mention above. Give everyone ACCESS. Make everyone able to start from the same or similar starting line.
However, then the responsibility shifts to the individual. What you do with that opportunity. How motivated are you? How much are you willing to sacrifice? How hard are you willing to work? There must be a personal contribution! And I think this is where people go astray and start to separate into those that feel "entitled" to everything, based on nothing.
It is NOT the government's job to bail people out from the consequences of their actions or inactions. It is NOT the government's job to enable bad choices. Most importantly, it is not the government's job to make sure every person is exactly equal and gets everything they want! Sounds simple but I think sometimes we get lost in that belief.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. I don't want to vote for Trump, but I can't vote for Hillary when she is in favor of providing everyone with an income below $125k with free in-state tuition. I can't imagine the tax increase that would be required to actually do that.
It is those types of programs that she supports that make me feel like I have to vote for Trump, even though I agree he is not a good choice in many ways.
I see what you're saying but being in favor of something doesn't mean it'll happen, right? And I think it would be pretty unlikely that it'll happen. Like Trump wants to build a wall but making him President wouldn't automatically make that happen, right?
Being in favor doesn't mean it will happen, and I think your example is a good one. Hopefully the wall and free college are equally unlikely!
But overall, the sentiment of a wall being stricter control over immigration resonates with me more than the idea of providing free college to a portion of the population, many who are middle class and some upper middle class depending on cost of living.
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| Posted 8/2/16 5:37 PM |
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smdl
I love Gary too..on a plate!
Member since 5/06 32461 total posts
Name:
me
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Re: A question for Trump supporters
Posted by ElizaRags35
Posted by secretlyTTCagain
Posted by MrsPJB2007
Posted by NYCGirl80
Posted by Xelindrya
First she's against same sex marriage then she's for it. She says what ever suits the vote. But you worry about Trumps words?
Sorry, but you're inaccurate here. Originally, Hillary said she would leave it to the states, and if the state supported it, then she would do. Separation of state and federal powers.
She was never OPPOSED to it.
I can't stand either candidate - but I will say that Hillary flip-flopped on this. In various speeches from 2002-2004 she defines marriage as between a man and a woman only. She was definitely against it at one point and now that it's gotten so much support, she's for it.
[
This doesnt speak to my initial post about Trump but I just wanted to say that it's possible that her position legitimately changed over time. When DH and I first met in late 2002 he didnt believe in gay marriage. We would debate it over and over in the dining hall and over time I wore him down, he met gay friends in college, and he changed his position after a few years. He is now 100% in favor of gay rights, gay marriage, the works. A lot can happen over 12-14 years. It doesn't necessarily make you a flip flopper, it means sometimes you are open to new and progressive ideas.
Completely agree. I'm more concerned with constant back and forth flip flopping than someone changing positions over the course of a few years as the world changes.
People change. Many years ago we had this debate here on LIF and I was anti gay marriage. I have to say I have completely changed my mind about it. Hearing others. Self reflexion. That does not make me a flip flopping person. I just changed my views.
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| Posted 8/2/16 5:50 PM |
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ChilisWife
God Bless America
Member since 5/05 3571 total posts
Name:
A.K.
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Re: A question for Trump supporters
Posted by secretlyTTCagain
I'm the OP. I'm not necessarily looking for Trump supporters to set out their reasons for supporting him (but you are welcome to share) or for people to attack one another. I was more curious if you would support Trump no matter what, or if there is something he could say or do that would make you say "I just can't support him"
Although, on the flip side, it's hard to think what Hillary would have to do at this point to lose my vote in this election. It's hard to isolate that breaking point...
Put it this way. There is nothing at all that he could do that would make me vote for Hillary. However Im sure there are things he could do that may make me vote Gary Johnson. But hurting people's feelings isnt one of them.
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| Posted 8/2/16 6:55 PM |
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ChilisWife
God Bless America
Member since 5/05 3571 total posts
Name:
A.K.
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Re: A question for Trump supporters
Posted by JennP
Thank you so much for sharing!
I wonder if you'll indulge me further (and of course this goes for anyone who agrees with Chiliswife.)
Since you say you disagree with the Democratic economic plan, I am inferring that you think they are "enabling bad choices." Can you explain to me how you think they do that? How they bail people out?
The only entities I have seen bailed out in recent years, IMO, are big banks and corporations.
Again, I am asking honestly. Truly. I am trying to see the differences. Because I'm relatively liberal economically and you haven't said a single thing I disagree with.
It's not that we have actually been bailing everyone out, it's the idea that we should. I guess I just feel like if someone decides to make certain choices in their life then they should own those choices. If you decide to take out $200,000 in loans to go to an expensive private college, party your way through and then realize your entry level job pays only $24,000, why should your loans be forgiven? If you make $50,000 per year and buy a $500,000 house with a huge mortgage and get foreclosed, why should you be entitled to government funding to get back on your feet? If you give up your 2-income household to be a stay at home mom but really cannot afford it then why complain about how it's so hard to make ends meet? , If you work at McDonald's and never strive to get a better paying job or even a managerial position at McDonald's because you don't want the stress or take the time, should we keep raising the minimum wage every year to subsidize you?
I know everyone's situation is different and these examples are very broad generalizations that do not take into account different circumstances, but I resent the notion that redistributing wealth is "fair." I won't ever say that someone makes "too much money" and should give it to those struggling as a result of their own choices. Do I like that Kim Kartrashian makes millions for absolutely no reason at all? No, but good for her. Why should she give some to me?
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| Posted 8/2/16 7:12 PM |
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smdl
I love Gary too..on a plate!
Member since 5/06 32461 total posts
Name:
me
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Re: A question for Trump supporters
Posted by ChilisWife
Posted by JennP
Thank you so much for sharing!
I wonder if you'll indulge me further (and of course this goes for anyone who agrees with Chiliswife.)
Since you say you disagree with the Democratic economic plan, I am inferring that you think they are "enabling bad choices." Can you explain to me how you think they do that? How they bail people out?
The only entities I have seen bailed out in recent years, IMO, are big banks and corporations.
Again, I am asking honestly. Truly. I am trying to see the differences. Because I'm relatively liberal economically and you haven't said a single thing I disagree with.
It's not that we have actually been bailing everyone out, it's the idea that we should. I guess I just feel like if someone decides to make certain choices in their life then they should own those choices. If you decide to take out $200,000 in loans to go to an expensive private college, party your way through and then realize your entry level job pays only $24,000, why should your loans be forgiven? If you make $50,000 per year and buy a $500,000 house with a huge mortgage and get foreclosed, why should you be entitled to government funding to get back on your feet? If you give up your 2-income household to be a stay at home mom but really cannot afford it then why complain about how it's so hard to make ends meet? , If you work at McDonald's and never strive to get a better paying job or even a managerial position at McDonald's because you don't want the stress or take the time, should we keep raising the minimum wage every year to subsidize you?
I know everyone's situation is different and these examples are very broad generalizations that do not take into account different circumstances, but I resent the notion that redistributing wealth is "fair." I won't ever say that someone makes "too much money" and should give it to those struggling as a result of their own choices. Do I like that Kim Kartrashian makes millions for absolutely no reason at all? No, but good for her. Why should she give some to me?
The bail out after the mortgage collapse was absolutely mandatory. It would have been a major economic collapse worldwide otherwise. To catastrophic consequences. Ask anyone working in the finance world. Regardless of any political party. Nobody liked it but it was the only thing to do.
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| Posted 8/2/16 8:44 PM |
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JennP
LIF Adult
Member since 10/06 3986 total posts
Name:
Jenn
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Re: A question for Trump supporters
Posted by ChilisWife
Posted by JennP
Thank you so much for sharing!
I wonder if you'll indulge me further (and of course this goes for anyone who agrees with Chiliswife.)
Since you say you disagree with the Democratic economic plan, I am inferring that you think they are "enabling bad choices." Can you explain to me how you think they do that? How they bail people out?
The only entities I have seen bailed out in recent years, IMO, are big banks and corporations.
Again, I am asking honestly. Truly. I am trying to see the differences. Because I'm relatively liberal economically and you haven't said a single thing I disagree with.
It's not that we have actually been bailing everyone out, it's the idea that we should. I guess I just feel like if someone decides to make certain choices in their life then they should own those choices. If you decide to take out $200,000 in loans to go to an expensive private college, party your way through and then realize your entry level job pays only $24,000, why should your loans be forgiven? If you make $50,000 per year and buy a $500,000 house with a huge mortgage and get foreclosed, why should you be entitled to government funding to get back on your feet? If you give up your 2-income household to be a stay at home mom but really cannot afford it then why complain about how it's so hard to make ends meet? , If you work at McDonald's and never strive to get a better paying job or even a managerial position at McDonald's because you don't want the stress or take the time, should we keep raising the minimum wage every year to subsidize you?
I know everyone's situation is different and these examples are very broad generalizations that do not take into account different circumstances, but I resent the notion that redistributing wealth is "fair." I won't ever say that someone makes "too much money" and should give it to those struggling as a result of their own choices. Do I like that Kim Kartrashian makes millions for absolutely no reason at all? No, but good for her. Why should she give some to me?
Thanks again!
Since they are interesting points, I thought I would respond to each:
"If you decide to take out $200,000 in loans to go to an expensive private college, party your way through and then realize your entry level job pays only $24,000, why should your loans be forgiven?"
We agree here. I don't think the loans should be forgiven. I am not sure they should exist in the first place, but that's a different question.
Interestingly, no major party candidate that I'm aware of has advocated for total loan forgiveness. Even Sanders, the advocate of totally free tuition, did not believe in wiping out all prior debt, at least according to his website. Rather, the Dems have advocated for student loan reform. So I don't think you need to worry about this, because no one is advocating for it, to my knowledge.
"If you make $50,000 per year and buy a $500,000 house with a huge mortgage and get foreclosed, why should you be entitled to government funding to get back on your feet?"
I have mixed feelings about this. I do think predatory loans were a serious problem, and I don't have a problem with someone who was a victim receiving getting a second chance and modifying their loan. Otherwise, I can see how foreclosure might just be what ends up happening for some people; since it takes years, at least they have time to secure other housing. As far as your example, I am not entirely sure what government funding you mean, because HARP is not available to those in foreclosure or who even have 30 plus days delinquency. So again, no worries here.
"If you give up your 2-income household to be a stay at home mom but really cannot afford it then why complain about how it's so hard to make ends meet?"
No comment here - no political connection and besides I think stay at home mom and working mom should be ******** terms like shit used to be.
"If you work at McDonald's and never strive to get a better paying job or even a managerial position at McDonald's because you don't want the stress or take the time, should we keep raising the minimum wage every year to subsidize you?"
Here I do disagree, for a few reasons. Frankly, minimum wage has stagnated for years and NOT kept up with inflation. According to Pew Research Center, The Economist - a conservation publication for sure - estimates that minimum wage should be about $12. Additionally - same source - the average wage today has the same purchasing power as in...1979. Many people on this board have not even been alive that long. If $15 an hour seems high, it's because it's long overdue. When you consider that, it's not even about creating a living wage. It's about keeping up with inflation.
Secondly, the cycle of poverty makes that a question with many, many gray areas. I see it a lot with my students and even their parents. I don't believe it's that people don't want to better their lives. Who would want that job forever? I've never met anyone who has said that! It's that they can't take the time to make things better because they're working too many hours to pay rent so they can't go to school, school itself is too expensive, etc. etc. I am not saying people don't make bad choices. I just think the cycle of poverty is a very real thing and something has to break it.
I will agree that $15 should be phased in slowly as to not shock the system. But not too slowly - not at the pace it's been raised!
So those are my thoughts, which I'm sharing since you've shared yours.
Thanks again for discussing.
We've probably arrived at our fundamental disagreement(s) but I'm happy to discuss further with anyone who cares to!
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| Posted 8/3/16 12:05 AM |
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Kitten1929
LIF Adult
Member since 1/13 6040 total posts
Name:
|
Re: A question for Trump supporters
Posted by JennP
Posted by ChilisWife
Posted by JennP
Thank you so much for sharing!
I wonder if you'll indulge me further (and of course this goes for anyone who agrees with Chiliswife.)
Since you say you disagree with the Democratic economic plan, I am inferring that you think they are "enabling bad choices." Can you explain to me how you think they do that? How they bail people out?
The only entities I have seen bailed out in recent years, IMO, are big banks and corporations.
Again, I am asking honestly. Truly. I am trying to see the differences. Because I'm relatively liberal economically and you haven't said a single thing I disagree with.
It's not that we have actually been bailing everyone out, it's the idea that we should. I guess I just feel like if someone decides to make certain choices in their life then they should own those choices. If you decide to take out $200,000 in loans to go to an expensive private college, party your way through and then realize your entry level job pays only $24,000, why should your loans be forgiven? If you make $50,000 per year and buy a $500,000 house with a huge mortgage and get foreclosed, why should you be entitled to government funding to get back on your feet? If you give up your 2-income household to be a stay at home mom but really cannot afford it then why complain about how it's so hard to make ends meet? , If you work at McDonald's and never strive to get a better paying job or even a managerial position at McDonald's because you don't want the stress or take the time, should we keep raising the minimum wage every year to subsidize you?
I know everyone's situation is different and these examples are very broad generalizations that do not take into account different circumstances, but I resent the notion that redistributing wealth is "fair." I won't ever say that someone makes "too much money" and should give it to those struggling as a result of their own choices. Do I like that Kim Kartrashian makes millions for absolutely no reason at all? No, but good for her. Why should she give some to me?
Thanks again!
Since they are interesting points, I thought I would respond to each:
"If you decide to take out $200,000 in loans to go to an expensive private college, party your way through and then realize your entry level job pays only $24,000, why should your loans be forgiven?"
We agree here. I don't think the loans should be forgiven. I am not sure they should exist in the first place, but that's a different question.
Interestingly, no major party candidate that I'm aware of has advocated for total loan forgiveness. Even Sanders, the advocate of totally free tuition, did not believe in wiping out all prior debt, at least according to his website. Rather, the Dems have advocated for student loan reform. So I don't think you need to worry about this, because no one is advocating for it, to my knowledge.
"If you make $50,000 per year and buy a $500,000 house with a huge mortgage and get foreclosed, why should you be entitled to government funding to get back on your feet?"
I have mixed feelings about this. I do think predatory loans were a serious problem, and I don't have a problem with someone who was a victim receiving getting a second chance and modifying their loan. Otherwise, I can see how foreclosure might just be what ends up happening for some people; since it takes years, at least they have time to secure other housing. As far as your example, I am not entirely sure what government funding you mean, because HARP is not available to those in foreclosure or who even have 30 plus days delinquency. So again, no worries here.
"If you give up your 2-income household to be a stay at home mom but really cannot afford it then why complain about how it's so hard to make ends meet?"
No comment here - no political connection and besides I think stay at home mom and working mom should be ******** terms like shit used to be.
"If you work at McDonald's and never strive to get a better paying job or even a managerial position at McDonald's because you don't want the stress or take the time, should we keep raising the minimum wage every year to subsidize you?"
Here I do disagree, for a few reasons. Frankly, minimum wage has stagnated for years and NOT kept up with inflation. According to Pew Research Center, The Economist - a conservation publication for sure - estimates that minimum wage should be about $12. Additionally - same source - the average wage today has the same purchasing power as in...1979. Many people on this board have not even been alive that long. If $15 an hour seems high, it's because it's long overdue. When you consider that, it's not even about creating a living wage. It's about keeping up with inflation.
Secondly, the cycle of poverty makes that a question with many, many gray areas. I see it a lot with my students and even their parents. I don't believe it's that people don't want to better their lives. Who would want that job forever? I've never met anyone who has said that! It's that they can't take the time to make things better because they're working too many hours to pay rent so they can't go to school, school itself is too expensive, etc. etc. I am not saying people don't make bad choices. I just think the cycle of poverty is a very real thing and something has to break it.
I will agree that $15 should be phased in slowly as to not shock the system. But not too slowly - not at the pace it's been raised!
So those are my thoughts, which I'm sharing since you've shared yours.
Thanks again for discussing.
We've probably arrived at our fundamental disagreement(s) but I'm happy to discuss further with anyone who cares to!
I completely agree with everything you stated here. Dems seem to be painted as these people who just want to give away everything without consequence and that is largely untrue. I believe in reform and limits in many of these issues, but I do believe in the fundamental necessity of people working together for a common good rather than the idea of every man for themselves.
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| Posted 8/3/16 8:20 AM |
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sameinitials
insert creative comment here
Member since 2/12 1998 total posts
Name:
|
A question for Trump supporters
What was said earlier in the post about voting for HRC for pres but then Republican down the ticket makes a ton of sense. Especially since one of the most common things I have heard from Trump supporters (not necessarily on this thread, but on LIF and elsewhere) is that the president can't actually do anything on his/her own and so Trump's power would be checked.
But then so would HRC's, and we wouldn't have a president who says so many ridiculous, offensive, [insert negative adjective here] things.
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| Posted 8/3/16 9:10 AM |
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JennP
LIF Adult
Member since 10/06 3986 total posts
Name:
Jenn
|
Re: A question for Trump supporters
Posted by Kitten1929
Posted by JennP
Posted by ChilisWife
Posted by JennP
Thank you so much for sharing!
I wonder if you'll indulge me further (and of course this goes for anyone who agrees with Chiliswife.)
Since you say you disagree with the Democratic economic plan, I am inferring that you think they are "enabling bad choices." Can you explain to me how you think they do that? How they bail people out?
The only entities I have seen bailed out in recent years, IMO, are big banks and corporations.
Again, I am asking honestly. Truly. I am trying to see the differences. Because I'm relatively liberal economically and you haven't said a single thing I disagree with.
It's not that we have actually been bailing everyone out, it's the idea that we should. I guess I just feel like if someone decides to make certain choices in their life then they should own those choices. If you decide to take out $200,000 in loans to go to an expensive private college, party your way through and then realize your entry level job pays only $24,000, why should your loans be forgiven? If you make $50,000 per year and buy a $500,000 house with a huge mortgage and get foreclosed, why should you be entitled to government funding to get back on your feet? If you give up your 2-income household to be a stay at home mom but really cannot afford it then why complain about how it's so hard to make ends meet? , If you work at McDonald's and never strive to get a better paying job or even a managerial position at McDonald's because you don't want the stress or take the time, should we keep raising the minimum wage every year to subsidize you?
I know everyone's situation is different and these examples are very broad generalizations that do not take into account different circumstances, but I resent the notion that redistributing wealth is "fair." I won't ever say that someone makes "too much money" and should give it to those struggling as a result of their own choices. Do I like that Kim Kartrashian makes millions for absolutely no reason at all? No, but good for her. Why should she give some to me?
Thanks again!
Since they are interesting points, I thought I would respond to each:
"If you decide to take out $200,000 in loans to go to an expensive private college, party your way through and then realize your entry level job pays only $24,000, why should your loans be forgiven?"
We agree here. I don't think the loans should be forgiven. I am not sure they should exist in the first place, but that's a different question.
Interestingly, no major party candidate that I'm aware of has advocated for total loan forgiveness. Even Sanders, the advocate of totally free tuition, did not believe in wiping out all prior debt, at least according to his website. Rather, the Dems have advocated for student loan reform. So I don't think you need to worry about this, because no one is advocating for it, to my knowledge.
"If you make $50,000 per year and buy a $500,000 house with a huge mortgage and get foreclosed, why should you be entitled to government funding to get back on your feet?"
I have mixed feelings about this. I do think predatory loans were a serious problem, and I don't have a problem with someone who was a victim receiving getting a second chance and modifying their loan. Otherwise, I can see how foreclosure might just be what ends up happening for some people; since it takes years, at least they have time to secure other housing. As far as your example, I am not entirely sure what government funding you mean, because HARP is not available to those in foreclosure or who even have 30 plus days delinquency. So again, no worries here.
"If you give up your 2-income household to be a stay at home mom but really cannot afford it then why complain about how it's so hard to make ends meet?"
No comment here - no political connection and besides I think stay at home mom and working mom should be ******** terms like shit used to be.
"If you work at McDonald's and never strive to get a better paying job or even a managerial position at McDonald's because you don't want the stress or take the time, should we keep raising the minimum wage every year to subsidize you?"
Here I do disagree, for a few reasons. Frankly, minimum wage has stagnated for years and NOT kept up with inflation. According to Pew Research Center, The Economist - a conservation publication for sure - estimates that minimum wage should be about $12. Additionally - same source - the average wage today has the same purchasing power as in...1979. Many people on this board have not even been alive that long. If $15 an hour seems high, it's because it's long overdue. When you consider that, it's not even about creating a living wage. It's about keeping up with inflation.
Secondly, the cycle of poverty makes that a question with many, many gray areas. I see it a lot with my students and even their parents. I don't believe it's that people don't want to better their lives. Who would want that job forever? I've never met anyone who has said that! It's that they can't take the time to make things better because they're working too many hours to pay rent so they can't go to school, school itself is too expensive, etc. etc. I am not saying people don't make bad choices. I just think the cycle of poverty is a very real thing and something has to break it.
I will agree that $15 should be phased in slowly as to not shock the system. But not too slowly - not at the pace it's been raised!
So those are my thoughts, which I'm sharing since you've shared yours.
Thanks again for discussing.
We've probably arrived at our fundamental disagreement(s) but I'm happy to discuss further with anyone who cares to!
I believe in reform and limits in many of these issues, but I do believe in the fundamental necessity of people working together for a common good rather than the idea of every man for themselves.
You summed it up nicely.
On a total side note - does anyone think the Donald might quit the race?
I am just wondering if ultimately his ego won't be able to stand losing so he'll come up with a reason to back out sooner in case that happens.
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| Posted 8/3/16 9:29 AM |
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Kitten1929
LIF Adult
Member since 1/13 6040 total posts
Name:
|
Re: A question for Trump supporters
Posted by JennP
Posted by Kitten1929
Posted by JennP
Posted by ChilisWife
Posted by JennP
Thank you so much for sharing!
I wonder if you'll indulge me further (and of course this goes for anyone who agrees with Chiliswife.)
Since you say you disagree with the Democratic economic plan, I am inferring that you think they are "enabling bad choices." Can you explain to me how you think they do that? How they bail people out?
The only entities I have seen bailed out in recent years, IMO, are big banks and corporations.
Again, I am asking honestly. Truly. I am trying to see the differences. Because I'm relatively liberal economically and you haven't said a single thing I disagree with.
It's not that we have actually been bailing everyone out, it's the idea that we should. I guess I just feel like if someone decides to make certain choices in their life then they should own those choices. If you decide to take out $200,000 in loans to go to an expensive private college, party your way through and then realize your entry level job pays only $24,000, why should your loans be forgiven? If you make $50,000 per year and buy a $500,000 house with a huge mortgage and get foreclosed, why should you be entitled to government funding to get back on your feet? If you give up your 2-income household to be a stay at home mom but really cannot afford it then why complain about how it's so hard to make ends meet? , If you work at McDonald's and never strive to get a better paying job or even a managerial position at McDonald's because you don't want the stress or take the time, should we keep raising the minimum wage every year to subsidize you?
I know everyone's situation is different and these examples are very broad generalizations that do not take into account different circumstances, but I resent the notion that redistributing wealth is "fair." I won't ever say that someone makes "too much money" and should give it to those struggling as a result of their own choices. Do I like that Kim Kartrashian makes millions for absolutely no reason at all? No, but good for her. Why should she give some to me?
Thanks again!
Since they are interesting points, I thought I would respond to each:
"If you decide to take out $200,000 in loans to go to an expensive private college, party your way through and then realize your entry level job pays only $24,000, why should your loans be forgiven?"
We agree here. I don't think the loans should be forgiven. I am not sure they should exist in the first place, but that's a different question.
Interestingly, no major party candidate that I'm aware of has advocated for total loan forgiveness. Even Sanders, the advocate of totally free tuition, did not believe in wiping out all prior debt, at least according to his website. Rather, the Dems have advocated for student loan reform. So I don't think you need to worry about this, because no one is advocating for it, to my knowledge.
"If you make $50,000 per year and buy a $500,000 house with a huge mortgage and get foreclosed, why should you be entitled to government funding to get back on your feet?"
I have mixed feelings about this. I do think predatory loans were a serious problem, and I don't have a problem with someone who was a victim receiving getting a second chance and modifying their loan. Otherwise, I can see how foreclosure might just be what ends up happening for some people; since it takes years, at least they have time to secure other housing. As far as your example, I am not entirely sure what government funding you mean, because HARP is not available to those in foreclosure or who even have 30 plus days delinquency. So again, no worries here.
"If you give up your 2-income household to be a stay at home mom but really cannot afford it then why complain about how it's so hard to make ends meet?"
No comment here - no political connection and besides I think stay at home mom and working mom should be ******** terms like shit used to be.
"If you work at McDonald's and never strive to get a better paying job or even a managerial position at McDonald's because you don't want the stress or take the time, should we keep raising the minimum wage every year to subsidize you?"
Here I do disagree, for a few reasons. Frankly, minimum wage has stagnated for years and NOT kept up with inflation. According to Pew Research Center, The Economist - a conservation publication for sure - estimates that minimum wage should be about $12. Additionally - same source - the average wage today has the same purchasing power as in...1979. Many people on this board have not even been alive that long. If $15 an hour seems high, it's because it's long overdue. When you consider that, it's not even about creating a living wage. It's about keeping up with inflation.
Secondly, the cycle of poverty makes that a question with many, many gray areas. I see it a lot with my students and even their parents. I don't believe it's that people don't want to better their lives. Who would want that job forever? I've never met anyone who has said that! It's that they can't take the time to make things better because they're working too many hours to pay rent so they can't go to school, school itself is too expensive, etc. etc. I am not saying people don't make bad choices. I just think the cycle of poverty is a very real thing and something has to break it.
I will agree that $15 should be phased in slowly as to not shock the system. But not too slowly - not at the pace it's been raised!
So those are my thoughts, which I'm sharing since you've shared yours.
Thanks again for discussing.
We've probably arrived at our fundamental disagreement(s) but I'm happy to discuss further with anyone who cares to!
I believe in reform and limits in many of these issues, but I do believe in the fundamental necessity of people working together for a common good rather than the idea of every man for themselves.
You summed it up nicely.
On a total side note - does anyone think the Donald might quit the race?
I am just wondering if ultimately his ego won't be able to stand losing so he'll come up with a reason to back out sooner in case that happens.
I was talking to Elizarags and some other friends about this and I personally don't see him quitting the race because he is too damn prideful - I don't think he could ever stand that kind of humiliation or lose face like that. Although if he did quit, it would present an interesting conundrum of who would then become the GOP candidate and how it would play it from there. Is it the runner up, do they re-vote, etc.
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| Posted 8/3/16 9:49 AM |
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Pumpkin1
LIF Adult
Member since 12/05 3715 total posts
Name:
|
Re: A question for Trump supporters
Posted by Kitten1929
Posted by JennP
Posted by Kitten1929
Posted by JennP
Posted by ChilisWife
Posted by JennP
Thank you so much for sharing!
I wonder if you'll indulge me further (and of course this goes for anyone who agrees with Chiliswife.)
Since you say you disagree with the Democratic economic plan, I am inferring that you think they are "enabling bad choices." Can you explain to me how you think they do that? How they bail people out?
The only entities I have seen bailed out in recent years, IMO, are big banks and corporations.
Again, I am asking honestly. Truly. I am trying to see the differences. Because I'm relatively liberal economically and you haven't said a single thing I disagree with.
It's not that we have actually been bailing everyone out, it's the idea that we should. I guess I just feel like if someone decides to make certain choices in their life then they should own those choices. If you decide to take out $200,000 in loans to go to an expensive private college, party your way through and then realize your entry level job pays only $24,000, why should your loans be forgiven? If you make $50,000 per year and buy a $500,000 house with a huge mortgage and get foreclosed, why should you be entitled to government funding to get back on your feet? If you give up your 2-income household to be a stay at home mom but really cannot afford it then why complain about how it's so hard to make ends meet? , If you work at McDonald's and never strive to get a better paying job or even a managerial position at McDonald's because you don't want the stress or take the time, should we keep raising the minimum wage every year to subsidize you?
I know everyone's situation is different and these examples are very broad generalizations that do not take into account different circumstances, but I resent the notion that redistributing wealth is "fair." I won't ever say that someone makes "too much money" and should give it to those struggling as a result of their own choices. Do I like that Kim Kartrashian makes millions for absolutely no reason at all? No, but good for her. Why should she give some to me?
Thanks again!
Since they are interesting points, I thought I would respond to each:
"If you decide to take out $200,000 in loans to go to an expensive private college, party your way through and then realize your entry level job pays only $24,000, why should your loans be forgiven?"
We agree here. I don't think the loans should be forgiven. I am not sure they should exist in the first place, but that's a different question.
Interestingly, no major party candidate that I'm aware of has advocated for total loan forgiveness. Even Sanders, the advocate of totally free tuition, did not believe in wiping out all prior debt, at least according to his website. Rather, the Dems have advocated for student loan reform. So I don't think you need to worry about this, because no one is advocating for it, to my knowledge.
"If you make $50,000 per year and buy a $500,000 house with a huge mortgage and get foreclosed, why should you be entitled to government funding to get back on your feet?"
I have mixed feelings about this. I do think predatory loans were a serious problem, and I don't have a problem with someone who was a victim receiving getting a second chance and modifying their loan. Otherwise, I can see how foreclosure might just be what ends up happening for some people; since it takes years, at least they have time to secure other housing. As far as your example, I am not entirely sure what government funding you mean, because HARP is not available to those in foreclosure or who even have 30 plus days delinquency. So again, no worries here.
"If you give up your 2-income household to be a stay at home mom but really cannot afford it then why complain about how it's so hard to make ends meet?"
No comment here - no political connection and besides I think stay at home mom and working mom should be ******** terms like shit used to be.
"If you work at McDonald's and never strive to get a better paying job or even a managerial position at McDonald's because you don't want the stress or take the time, should we keep raising the minimum wage every year to subsidize you?"
Here I do disagree, for a few reasons. Frankly, minimum wage has stagnated for years and NOT kept up with inflation. According to Pew Research Center, The Economist - a conservation publication for sure - estimates that minimum wage should be about $12. Additionally - same source - the average wage today has the same purchasing power as in...1979. Many people on this board have not even been alive that long. If $15 an hour seems high, it's because it's long overdue. When you consider that, it's not even about creating a living wage. It's about keeping up with inflation.
Secondly, the cycle of poverty makes that a question with many, many gray areas. I see it a lot with my students and even their parents. I don't believe it's that people don't want to better their lives. Who would want that job forever? I've never met anyone who has said that! It's that they can't take the time to make things better because they're working too many hours to pay rent so they can't go to school, school itself is too expensive, etc. etc. I am not saying people don't make bad choices. I just think the cycle of poverty is a very real thing and something has to break it.
I will agree that $15 should be phased in slowly as to not shock the system. But not too slowly - not at the pace it's been raised!
So those are my thoughts, which I'm sharing since you've shared yours.
Thanks again for discussing.
We've probably arrived at our fundamental disagreement(s) but I'm happy to discuss further with anyone who cares to!
I believe in reform and limits in many of these issues, but I do believe in the fundamental necessity of people working together for a common good rather than the idea of every man for themselves.
You summed it up nicely.
On a total side note - does anyone think the Donald might quit the race?
I am just wondering if ultimately his ego won't be able to stand losing so he'll come up with a reason to back out sooner in case that happens.
I was talking to Elizarags and some other friends about this and I personally don't see him quitting the race because he is too damn prideful - I don't think he could ever stand that kind of humiliation or lose face like that. Although if he did quit, it would present an interesting conundrum of who would then become the GOP candidate and how it would play it from there. Is it the runner up, do they re-vote, etc.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/happens-trump-decides-quit-205000640.html
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| Posted 8/3/16 10:07 AM |
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sameinitials
insert creative comment here
Member since 2/12 1998 total posts
Name:
|
Re: A question for Trump supporters
Posted by Kitten1929
I was talking to Elizarags and some other friends about this and I personally don't see him quitting the race because he is too damn prideful - I don't think he could ever stand that kind of humiliation or lose face like that. Although if he did quit, it would present an interesting conundrum of who would then become the GOP candidate and how it would play it from there. Is it the runner up, do they re-vote, etc.
I don't think he would drop out either. I think if/when he loses, he will try everything possible to fight it and claim it was rigged, etc.
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| Posted 8/3/16 10:48 AM |
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GoldenRod
10 years on LIF!
Member since 11/06 26792 total posts
Name:
Shawn
|
Re: A question for Trump supporters
Posted by sameinitials
Posted by Kitten1929
I was talking to Elizarags and some other friends about this and I personally don't see him quitting the race because he is too damn prideful - I don't think he could ever stand that kind of humiliation or lose face like that. Although if he did quit, it would present an interesting conundrum of who would then become the GOP candidate and how it would play it from there. Is it the runner up, do they re-vote, etc.
I don't think he would drop out either. I think if/when he loses, he will try everything possible to fight it and claim it was rigged, etc.
He's already establishing that excuse. He's expecting to lose, so he's sewing up his golden parachute.
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| Posted 8/3/16 11:08 AM |
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