Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

Posted by klingklang77

Posted by yankinmanc

I haven't read all these posts, but peoples perceptions about socialised medicine really gets my goat. I am living with it and probably wouldn't return to the states because of the healthcare situation.

...

I don't understand sometimes when people say America is a free country etc, plenty of other countries have freedoms of speech and the citizens are free. I love America and I am proud to be an American, but I dont understand the sentiment.

eta: my only complaint of living in a socialized medicine country is the lack of painkillers and antibiotics here. Germany is very natural, homeopathic. I broke my arm and was sent home with ibuprofen. Other than that, the care I have gotten has been great.

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

Posted by yankinmanc

Posted by klingklang77

Posted by yankinmanc

I haven't read all these posts, but peoples perceptions about socialised medicine really gets my goat. I am living with it and probably wouldn't return to the states because of the healthcare situation.

...

I don't understand sometimes when people say America is a free country etc, plenty of other countries have freedoms of speech and the citizens are free. I love America and I am proud to be an American, but I dont understand the sentiment.

eta: my only complaint of living in a socialized medicine country is the lack of painkillers and antibiotics here. Germany is very natural, homeopathic. I broke my arm and was sent home with ibuprofen. Other than that, the care I have gotten has been great.

You should come to England, they give out antibiotics like they are candy! Saying that, in the maternity ward, when you are in labour they offer you paracetamol constantly, that and a little tiny like 20mg of codeine. But I can buy codeine over the counter here.

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

Posted by MandJZ

Posted by yankinmanc

Posted by klingklang77

Posted by yankinmanc

I haven't read all these posts, but peoples perceptions about socialised medicine really gets my goat. I am living with it and probably wouldn't return to the states because of the healthcare situation.

...

I don't understand sometimes when people say America is a free country etc, plenty of other countries have freedoms of speech and the citizens are free. I love America and I am proud to be an American, but I dont understand the sentiment.

eta: my only complaint of living in a socialized medicine country is the lack of painkillers and antibiotics here. Germany is very natural, homeopathic. I broke my arm and was sent home with ibuprofen. Other than that, the care I have gotten has been great.

You should come to England, they give out antibiotics like they are candy! Saying that, in the maternity ward, when you are in labour they offer you paracetamol constantly, that and a little tiny like 20mg of codeine. But I can buy codeine over the counter here.

Love me my Canadian over the counter meds. I bring them back by the barrel when I go home to visit.

That's cool, right?

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

So if these countries are so much better, then why is everyone still here? Why do people immigrate here? I dont think we are the perfect country, but I think we are pretty damn good just in the fact that this post exist at all! I think we ***** a lot about stuff we dont have, but would anyone here hop a plane w/ their families and move to pakistan? Germany? If so, go for it man. Yes getting everything from someone else is great, you are still paying for it though so its not free. Yes there are things you have to wait for here, but your wait is not as long. I have been told by people who live in canada that the time you wait for simple tests, ct scans, mri, etc is waaay longer. What makes you think a tonsilectomy would be a guarantee w/ socialized medicine? Think the government will pay for everything? Just the way they handle medicare and medicaid right tells me that even if the government took 100% charge of our healthcare getting use of it would be difficult. Anyone who thinks differently is in la la land or just plain has no clue about what is going on w/ medicare right now. Think there isnt gun violence in other countries? Isnt it nice that we can have a discussion where both sides can tell their side w/o government cramming things...one way or another...down your throat. Maybe not too bad if you agree w/ what,the government decides, but if you dont? Should we have not fought the revolutionary war? Should we have just stayed part of england since we all dont mind taxes so much? Yes, I know you feel like you would be getting something out of the high taxes, but the old saying is true: a government who is big enough to give you everything is big enough to take it away. Simply put if you think you can have a better life somewhere else, you are free to move. Less traffic for the rest of us.

Flame away

ETA: also, very respectfully I ask, if soemone can explain why they would be okay with 50%+ taxation so their government can be in charge of everything (i will not say give, cause again, just because the government offers a service doesnt mean they have to give you exactly what you want), but yet it's not okay to pay for their insurance premium? I am talking about you...the ones who are gainfully employed, not someone you know/heard about who is low income and qualifies for medicaid.

Message edited 1/12/2013 8:22:06 AM.

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

I also just wanted to say a little something about the mortality rates here and around the world.

Are there really people out there who really think that this has to do with insurance or quality of care you get in the US? Are there things we could to be a little bit more ahead of the curve (i.e. stem cells, etc)? Oh sure. Let's talk about the mortality rates though. The united states is one of the most unhealthy places in the world that is unhealthy because of lack of self-care. Yup. SELF-CARE. We have one of the highest obesity rates in the world. We consume more chemicals and processed foods than any other place in the world. We eat out more. We dont exercise. We rely too heavily on a pill to fix our ailments. We don't see doctors when we should. We put the burden of our health on our doctors instead of ourselves. Look, if our arteries are 100% clogged, all the kings horses and all of the kings men are not going to put humpty dumpty back together again. On top of that we are some of the most impatient, stressed out, self-absorbed people that we snap at the drop of a hat (or the sound of a car horn). What do you think that kind of lifestyle does to the body? We are not designed to spend our lives in front of cubicles, staring endlessly at computer screens or TV's. Do I do these things, yup. I spend the majority of my day sitting. I watch TV and I spend time in front of my computer too. The one thing I dont do is blame my doctor if I'm not in the best cardiovascular shape. I dont blame my neurologist for my migraines. I blame the fact that I am drinking a cup of caffiene right now. The mortality rates in the country are not good justification for socialized medicine...or at least it wont be until people start taking personal responsibility for their health.

BTW, I can almost guarantee you that if we did have socialized medicine, things like choosing to vaccinate your children or not will likely be the thing of the past. These are choices will no longer be yours because the government will be fitting the bill if you or your children come down with the measles. They dont want to pay. They dont. If if they can find a way not to, they wont. I could be wrong about this, I just feel like all these people who want socialized medicine think they will be able to go to a Dr like a department store and pick out what they want. With reimbursements at an all time low now, if the government was in control of this, reimbursements will be just as lower, if not lower. So do you think doctors will stay in their professions if they are not getting paid their worth...cause they DID have to pay for school? If socialism started tomorrow, you would have to wait a good 10 years or so, at least to find a doctor who didnt pay for their education and will work for peanuts. Do you think they will just do any procedure you want them to do?

Ok, :pant, pant: stepping off my soap box now.

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

Message edited 1/12/2013 10:12:54 AM.

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

Message edited 1/12/2013 10:30:58 AM.

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

Posted by LittleBlueBug

Posted by MandJZ

Posted by LittleBlueBug


BTW, I can almost guarantee you that if we did have socialized medicine, things like choosing to vaccinate your children or not will likely be the thing of the past. These are choices will no longer be yours because the government will be fitting the bill if you or your children come down with the measles. They dont want to pay. They dont. If if they can find a way not to, they wont. I could be wrong about this, I just feel like all these people who want socialized medicine think they will be able to go to a Dr like a department store and pick out what they want. With reimbursements at an all time low now, if the government was in control of this, reimbursements will be just as lower, if not lower. So do you think doctors will stay in their professions if they are not getting paid their worth...cause they DID have to pay for school? If socialism started tomorrow, you would have to wait a good 10 years or so, at least to find a doctor who didnt pay for their education and will work for peanuts. Do you think they will just do any procedure you want them to do?

Ok, :pant, pant: stepping off my soap box now.

I'm sorry. You're wrong.

I know you posted about your anecdotes from people in Canada, but I and numerous others have already clearly said that wait times here are very comparable with wait times in Canada. I have a complicated medical history and saw numerous doctors annually and never had issues. I also went to the ER for myself, my mother and my sister on a number of occasions, and have done so here with DH, and they were identical scenarios. Identical.

As for vaccines. I have every single vaccine that Americans have. ON TOP OF THAT, the MMR vaccine for kids is NOT only free but it is given IN school, so parents don't need to find the time to take their kids to the doctor for it, the public health nurses COME to the schools and administer it. If you already received it or your parents would rather take you that is TOTALLY fine but the option is there.

Every Western country has the same standards for vaccines and in countries with socialized medicine they ARE given and they ARE covered.

So yeah. You are wrong about that.

ETA: sorry, forgot about your doctors working for peanuts now. Canadian medical schools are filled to capacity. My SIL just finished residency. I have 3 cousins who are doctors. They make VERY good livings and have zero issues with getting their reimbursements from the government. Zero. As a RESIDENT my SIL is making between $75k-$90k. When she is a full time doctor her salary will start in the low 6 figures and go up from there. This is all in Canada.

Please don't make assumptions and 'almost guarantee' anything based on your feelings on an issue.

I'm sorry, I was not discussing whether vaccines were FREE or not. Oh man, we are a society obsessed with getting things for free, aren't we? I was saying the CHOICE to vaccinate or not will not be yours. Not with this government anyway. We have a government that, if given the option to give YOU something or put something in their pockets or pay for something in their own agenda...where do you think it will go? Yes, one day if school is free I'm sure schools would be filled. We would have more doctors than we know what to do with. What about the doctors now? I am talking about what OUR government does. Our government, when given the oppotunity to control some healthcare reimbuses nearly nothing to people who did have to pay for their education. Reaimbursements are at an all time low for medicare/medicare...that is FACT...not my "feeling". On top of that the regulations get stricter and stricter and more laborious.

So why do I know someone who came to the US for an MRI because the wait time was so long? Oh were they making that up? When was the last time you needed an MRI and how long did you wait? I must have totally awesome healthcare because I have had numerous MRI's and CT scans with no wait. Wow, I have it really good...maybe that's why I dont complain as much. You are not the only one with complicated health issues...you are talking to someone who lands in the ER every 4 months or so. .

Oh, and I do not post "anecdotes". I am not one of those people that hear rants on you tube and post about like its a fact.

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

Posted by MandJZ

Posted by LittleBlueBug

Posted by MandJZ

Posted by LittleBlueBug


BTW, I can almost guarantee you that if we did have socialized medicine, things like choosing to vaccinate your children or not will likely be the thing of the past. These are choices will no longer be yours because the government will be fitting the bill if you or your children come down with the measles. They dont want to pay. They dont. If if they can find a way not to, they wont. I could be wrong about this, I just feel like all these people who want socialized medicine think they will be able to go to a Dr like a department store and pick out what they want. With reimbursements at an all time low now, if the government was in control of this, reimbursements will be just as lower, if not lower. So do you think doctors will stay in their professions if they are not getting paid their worth...cause they DID have to pay for school? If socialism started tomorrow, you would have to wait a good 10 years or so, at least to find a doctor who didnt pay for their education and will work for peanuts. Do you think they will just do any procedure you want them to do?

Ok, :pant, pant: stepping off my soap box now.

I'm sorry. You're wrong.

I know you posted about your anecdotes from people in Canada, but I and numerous others have already clearly said that wait times here are very comparable with wait times in Canada. I have a complicated medical history and saw numerous doctors annually and never had issues. I also went to the ER for myself, my mother and my sister on a number of occasions, and have done so here with DH, and they were identical scenarios. Identical.

As for vaccines. I have every single vaccine that Americans have. ON TOP OF THAT, the MMR vaccine for kids is NOT only free but it is given IN school, so parents don't need to find the time to take their kids to the doctor for it, the public health nurses COME to the schools and administer it. If you already received it or your parents would rather take you that is TOTALLY fine but the option is there.

Every Western country has the same standards for vaccines and in countries with socialized medicine they ARE given and they ARE covered.

So yeah. You are wrong about that.

ETA: sorry, forgot about your doctors working for peanuts now. Canadian medical schools are filled to capacity. My SIL just finished residency. I have 3 cousins who are doctors. They make VERY good livings and have zero issues with getting their reimbursements from the government. Zero. As a RESIDENT my SIL is making between $75k-$90k. When she is a full time doctor her salary will start in the low 6 figures and go up from there. This is all in Canada.

Please don't make assumptions and 'almost guarantee' anything based on your feelings on an issue.

I'm sorry, I was not discussing whether vaccines were FREE or not. Oh man, we are a society obsessed with getting things for free, aren't we? I was saying the CHOICE to vaccinate or not will not be yours. Not with this government anyway. We have a government that, if given the option to give YOU something or put something in their pockets or pay for something in their own agenda...where do you think it will go? Yes, one day if school is free I'm sure schools would be filled. We would have more doctors than we know what to do with. What about the doctors now? I am talking about what OUR government does. Our government, when given the oppotunity to control some healthcare reimbuses nearly nothing to people who did have to pay for their education. Reaimbursements are at an all time low for medicare/medicare...that is FACT...not my "feeling". On top of that the regulations get stricter and stricter and more laborious.

So why do I know someone who came to the US for an MRI because the wait time was so long? Oh were they making that up? When was the last time you needed an MRI and how long did you wait? I must have totally awesome healthcare because I have had numerous MRI's and CT scans with no wait. Wow, I have it really good...maybe that's why I dont complain as much. You are not the only one with complicated health issues...you are talking to someone who lands in the ER every 4 months or so. .

Oh, and I do not post "anecdotes". I am not one of those people that hear rants on you tube and post about like its a fact.

I'm sorry, I don't think I understand what you're saying, so rather than debate when I'm not sure what your argument is I'm just going to stop now.

But just for the record - talking about a friend who came here for an MRI IS an anecdote.

Message edited 1/12/2013 10:48:34 AM.

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

Meredith is offering her own insight and experiences from living in Canada with socialized health care. Many here in America are frightened over what they've been told about socialized health care systems - and Meredith is saying that its not so bad. That there are a lot of advantages.

I like hearing another perspective from someone who has lived in such a system. I'm personally all for socialized healthcare and from what I've heard (and not just from Meredith) is that it's really a solid system.

In the same token, I think a lot of "Obamacare" is good and one example is how insurance can't drop you for having a pre-existing condition.

Our system here is very flawed and if something is broken, maybe it's time to try something new, kwim?

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

just curious, do a lot of people buy private healthcare in Canada, or do most upper middle class take what the govt offers?

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

To those of you who are criticizing this post existing..did you watch the video? All the wya through to the end?

Because the point is clear, and i think some people missed it

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

All of the things people complain about with socialized medicine are true in the insurance system today. you DO have to do certain procedures. On my plan if I don't go for a Pap or a preventive care visit every so often, I get a HEFTY surcharge on the next year's bill.

You always have to play by their rules. I've already told you about how a myopic first grader could tell by looking that I had a major problem with my tonsils and yet it took me over a year to get the surgery approved, and I ended up going out of network anyway because the doctors turned me off so much. I posted about how my mom needs a certain medicine but can't have it because they don't want to pay. it happens ALL the time.

The difference is that in a private system, it's for profit and they do make huge profits. They answer to shareholders and the bottom line. i think it's SICK that our health insurance companies are on the stock market. it's ridiculous. They are balancing whether someone can get a life saving surgery with a profit motive. it just shouldn't be. It's the worst of both worlds, it IS a socialist system (any insurance is), but it doesn't exist to help the people, but to drive private revenues. It's bull.

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

That Canadians often come to the US and other countries for treatments due to long wait times is not anecdotal.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2231416/

The fact is Canada has set benchmarks for non-emergent procedures, for example a hip replacement wait is 26 weeks.

many people come from other countries for medical procedures, including Canadians, because of ease of access and the high level of expertise in some of our world recognized hospitals I.e. Hopkins, Mayo Clinic, Mass General, Cleveland Clinic, NY Presbyterian, Sloan Kettering - the list goes on. U.S. citizens also travel abroad for procedures due to cost. THe bottom line is no system is perfect and ours can definitely use revamping. I believe all should have access to health care but I do not want to emulate other systems that have their own flaws. I, too, lived in Canada, granted I was not in a major city but in a fairly large town with a well known university, and I personally would not trade wht I have now in terms of healthcare. I do understand that many here do not have that luxury and that needs to change but I believe we need to think outside the box rather than having the govt control our healthcare. Frankly, I find them incompetent and don't want to put my health in their hands.

By way of anecdote, one of my good friends is from Denmark and loves it there but has admitting on several occasions that she uses the private insurance offered through her husband's employer rather than the state healthcare because when her children are sick she cannot get them in to see the pediatrician for several days. Again, she does not live in Copenhagen so it may be different there.

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

I'm not saying either system is perfect...maybe a hybrid system would work better with basics covered for all and optional aupplemental insurance

I just personally think that it's a problem when the wealthiest nation in the world has so many people who can't get neccessary care because they can't afford it. We have many of the best doctors and facilities, great medicines, etc but it means nothing whena HUGE portion of our citizenry will never see it because they can't afford it

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

This took a predictable turn.

But I wonder how everyone measures the greatness of a nation.

REALLY think about what makes a nation great. Not perfect - GREAT.

Is it the size of an economy? How many people emigrate to a nation?

Put aside your feelings for a minute and just listen to 6:30 on.

If you think we're still the greatest nation, fine. I don't care about changing minds. And you can tell me to leave because I don't think we're so great anymore...but I want to stay and help restore it to what it was.

Because we used to be great. We really aren't anymore. No many how many people try to emigrate here. No matter how huge our military or economy is.

Side note: Everyone can Google. Everyone has friend who has this friend whose aunt had a horrible experience, but if you don't live with it, what can you really claim to know about it if you haven't lived in a country that provides it? People on this very site share their experiences with it...is it hard to believe them?

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

I think what it comes down to is, as a PP said, no system has it right. I think with many issues we concentrate on doing the quick fix and get on the band wagon. There are some great ideas in some of the healthcare reform, some not so great ones too. I don't think many of the issues are cut and dry and I think we need to concentrate on long term fixes vs quickie band aids. I do not wish to be involved in another flawed system's system. Problem is all societies are run by flawed people. People who have good ideas and make mistakes. I don't like what the government has done so far with what healthcare they do have control over, so making it wide spread would make things worse.

I really believe a lot of what has hurt us as a country is overall attitude, part of it is generational though. When this country was great people worked their tails off and didn't have a sense of entitlement. Poor attitude has been a cancer in our society. Sometimes it's almost as if we are a society of bratty toddlers who want what they want when they want it and they should get it just because. I'm not saying that there aren't people out there who need help. I just dont think we have come up with a good answer yet. I applaud those who want to make changes and do something to fix the problem...I really wish those people WERE in our government.

Re: "America is not the greatest country in the world"

America IS the greatest country ever.

My Mother came here from Cuba. Cuba HAS socialized medicine. It was horrendous. She lived it. She almost died giving birth to my Sister. Oh and when my Sister was sick as a baby, my mother had to wait three weeks for medicine to come in the mail from a relative in the states. Excellent, right? And the food ration. They would get so much meat and hard boiled eggs in a week. And water and electricity would be shut off at night....

To the previous poster who said why would the immigrants STILL come here if it's NOT the best place in the world. I agree. They don't come here for shits and giggles. They come here for opportunity, education, a better life. I work with many immigrants and they tell me how things are in Greece, Italy, Iran, Ireland, and Armenia. Not good.

And, then I see some crazy horseshit things posted on this thread.... Like someone mentioned that Pakistan has the best programs for women. Really? Did you know they killed a whole bunch of women there recently? Or that they cut their feet if they show past their burkas? Or if a woman does a crime, they bury her in the ground from the neck down and beat her head to death? My best friend is FROM Pakistan. This is what he tells me. I believe him because he's lived there. It's grim and scary. They can keep that shit...

The Media often says how great things are in other countries. Shit, Cuba apparently has the best education system and an abundance in food. BS... I have family there still. They starve on a daily basis. Education is a brainwashing system to train kids to believe in the "Cuban Revolution". Sounds awesome, right?

America is the best. If anyone is unhappy with the way things are, well then go live in Pakistan or Cuba and see how great it is over there.

Message edited 1/12/2013 9:16:11 PM.