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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
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remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
Posted by MrsKS
I'm just having a hard time with the idea that those who don't want the mosque in that particular location automatically means we don't want freedom of religion and we hate muslims and believe all muslims are terrorists. This certainly is not how I feel. Not even for a second.
just to address this since I brought up freedom of religion a lot. I don't think that people who don't want the mosque there automatically means anything about them.
I understand the *wish* for lack of a better term that they would just pick another place.
my only point is that if we were to force their hand we would be going against the principles our nation is founded upon.
I don't believe that it intention. but it would be the outcome.
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Posted 8/18/10 4:52 PM  |
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MrsKS
Thank You St. Gerard.....
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Kerri
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by MrsKS
I'm just having a hard time with the idea that those who don't want the mosque in that particular location automatically means we don't want freedom of religion and we hate muslims and believe all muslims are terrorists. This certainly is not how I feel. Not even for a second.
just to address this since I brought up freedom of religion a lot. I don't think that people who don't want the mosque there automatically means anything about them.
I understand the *wish* for lack of a better term that they would just pick another place.
my only point is that if we were to force their hand we would be going against the principles our nation is founded upon.
I don't believe that it intention. but it would be the outcome.
I don't think they should be forced to relocate... I think they should openly opt to do so on their own accord. I don't think the government should step in and tell them to move locations. Just out of respect and understanding for what people have gone through (families of the 911 victims) they should willingly pick another location. I think if they did that.. they would gain a ton of respect from people for being the bigger "person" (I realize it's not just one person but you KWIM?).
ETA: we always hear these horrible stories about how they (I do mean middle eastern muslims too) are happy with what happened with 911 and how America deserved it or brought it on themselves, and about the upbringing of the children and how they are raised or brain washed to be killers and terrorists, etc. Not that they all think it... but it is overall a blanket feeling in America... this is the picture that is shown to a lot of people here.
I just see this as an opportunity to not say but do something that shows sensitivity to the families. And PROOVES the above accusations to be false. I think it would shut a lot of people up.
Message edited 8/18/2010 5:03:32 PM.
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| Posted 8/18/10 4:55 PM |
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MrsA714
Baby #2 is here!
Member since 8/07 8806 total posts
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
They have every right to build there and in the end that is all that matters. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but that doesn't change the fact that they are (and should be) allowed to build where they want. Now, that being said, do I think it's the right thing to do? I'm not sure. I think the only opinions that should matter (to those who want to build this) are the ones of people who lost loved ones on 9/11. I know this mosque/community center has big plans to make peace and build bridges within the diverse communities, which is great, but I think a little sensitivity to the victim's families wouldn't hurt either. IMO, I wouldn't want to start off on the wrong foot. But in the end, they CAN build where they want.
Also, I see a lot of back and forth about how far this building actually is from the WTC. I guess that depends on what you are referring to when you say 'WTC'. I work in the area Yes, it is a few blocks away from where the twin towers stood but it is only a block away from the new 7 WTC (the original was destroyed on 9/11) which could be why there is some confusion.
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| Posted 8/18/10 4:57 PM |
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Goldi0218
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Member since 12/05 23902 total posts
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
Posted by MrsA714
I think the only opinions that should matter (to those who want to build this) are the ones of people who lost loved ones on 9/11.
We ALL lost something on 9/11. I lost pieces of my heart and pieces of my soul. My opinion matters. I have not lived my life the same since.
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| Posted 8/18/10 5:02 PM |
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MrsKS
Thank You St. Gerard.....
Member since 12/09 8306 total posts
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Kerri
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
Posted by Goldi0218
Posted by MrsA714
I think the only opinions that should matter (to those who want to build this) are the ones of people who lost loved ones on 9/11.
We ALL lost something on 9/11. I lost pieces of my heart and pieces of my soul. My opinion matters. I have not lived my life the same since.
Goldi - I agree with you. Loads of people were affected but might have specifically lost a family member or a close loved one.
Think about all the people who had to walk home in absolute fear and chaos and covered in soot. or the families of those who worked there who became ill from breathing in the air pollutants. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the picture.
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| Posted 8/18/10 5:07 PM |
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MrsA714
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
Posted by Goldi0218
Posted by MrsA714
I think the only opinions that should matter (to those who want to build this) are the ones of people who lost loved ones on 9/11.
We ALL lost something on 9/11. I lost pieces of my heart and pieces of my soul. My opinion matters. I have not lived my life the same since.
I think my wording is a little off. Clearly we were ALL affected by the events of 9/11. And all of our opinions matter, but what I meant was if they're going to listen to the opinions/concerns of people, then those of the victims family members should carry a little more weight than let's say politicians from other states, etc. KWIM?
Message edited 8/18/2010 5:09:39 PM.
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| Posted 8/18/10 5:08 PM |
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Goldi0218
My miracles!
Member since 12/05 23902 total posts
Name:
Leslie
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
Posted by MrsA714
Posted by Goldi0218
Posted by MrsA714
I think the only opinions that should matter (to those who want to build this) are the ones of people who lost loved ones on 9/11.
We ALL lost something on 9/11. I lost pieces of my heart and pieces of my soul. My opinion matters. I have not lived my life the same since.
I think my wording is a little off. Clearly we were ALL affected by the events of 9/11. And all of our opinions matter, but what I meant was if they're going to listen to the opinions/concerns of people, then those of the victims family members should carry a little more weight than let's say politicians from other states, etc. KWIM?
Thank you for clarifying, but in that case, I'd like to see a poll given to them. Id be very curious to see how many of them would be waiting for opening day.
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| Posted 8/18/10 5:11 PM |
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Blu-ize
Plan B is Now Plan A
Member since 7/05 32475 total posts
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Susan
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
I don't think this mosque will get built at that site anyway.
Just think it won't be worth the fight and the vandalism it will be subject to.
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| Posted 8/18/10 5:18 PM |
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Otherme
Square head cutie pants
Member since 3/06 6899 total posts
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
Just saw this on yahoo
a fact check on some of the statements that have been thrown about by various people in response to the proposed building
yahoo article
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| Posted 8/18/10 5:28 PM |
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MrsKS
Thank You St. Gerard.....
Member since 12/09 8306 total posts
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Kerri
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
Posted by Blu-ize
I don't think this mosque will get built at that site anyway.
Just think it won't be worth the fight and the vandalism it will be subject to.
I have a strange feeling it will be built. IDK why though.
I guess we shall see how it plays out. You might be right.
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| Posted 8/18/10 7:18 PM |
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casey31
Mommy of 3!
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
Posted by laurenandmike619
Posted by Nifheim
Posted by Ophelia
honestly, in his position as a man of God, I see NOTHING wrong with his response.
ITA!
Seriously?? So you don't think he should recognize terrorists as terrorists?? If the RC priest at my parish said that he didn't want to recognize Hitler as an absolutely monster (since Hitler was technically a baptized Catholic), he would be attacked (and rightfully so). Regardless of one's affiliation, he or she must be able to recognize evil.
I agree- as a man of G-d he should see that terrorism is NOT a complex issue- it is WRONG to kill women and children.
I lost dear family friends to Hamas- in Haifa- they were eating in a restaurant. Hamas IS a terrorist organization and if he cannot acknolwedge that then he has no PEACE in his heart and I do not trust him as a man of peace.
Therefore, based on this and other things such as not revealing funding, saying America was an accessory to 9/11 (no I am not going to list sources) I do not trust what he will preach in that mosque.
And because I doubt what will be taught there it makes me more opposed to its location.
I do not believe all Muslims are terrorists- of course not. I do believe they have a constitutional right to build there.
However, the fact that I am fearful of THIS particular Imam makes me think it is wrong for it to be build THERE of all places.
Personally, I think the 3,000 dead American would agree with me.
Message edited 8/18/2010 8:03:27 PM.
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| Posted 8/18/10 8:02 PM |
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Erica
LIF Adult
Member since 5/05 11767 total posts
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
Posted by Otherme
I leave that up to you ladies whether the NY Post is a "credible" source
This is from a writers opinion column back in May - too bad she doesn't cite her source either
I'm sorry...I had to chuckle...NYPost=NewsCorp= credible/unbiased = me -> 
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| Posted 8/18/10 8:26 PM |
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justmefornow
LIF Adolescent
Member since 9/08 859 total posts
Name:
n
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
Posted by MrsA714
Posted by Goldi0218
Posted by MrsA714
I think the only opinions that should matter (to those who want to build this) are the ones of people who lost loved ones on 9/11.
We ALL lost something on 9/11. I lost pieces of my heart and pieces of my soul. My opinion matters. I have not lived my life the same since.
I think my wording is a little off. Clearly we were ALL affected by the events of 9/11. And all of our opinions matter, but what I meant was if they're going to listen to the opinions/concerns of people, then those of the victims family members should carry a little more weight than let's say politicians from other states, etc. KWIM?
Some articles from families of Sept 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrow about the controversy.
9/11 Families for Peaceful Tomorrow
Message edited 8/18/2010 9:08:09 PM.
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| Posted 8/18/10 9:07 PM |
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luckyinlove
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
There is nothing wrong with mosques being built anywhere, but I don't get the necessity for it to be built so close to the WTC site. The whole situation is sketchy- the Hamas leader said it "had to be built there for obvious reasons, and the Imam went all over the ME to fundraise for it. Why? Do religious leaders often do this and are people anxious to give money to build just random place of worship? I don't think so. There is definitely a reason it is being built so close and I don't think it is very sensitive to those who lost loved ones there. There is nothing ignorant about being sensitive to people's feelings.
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| Posted 8/18/10 9:13 PM |
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Xelindrya
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Veronica
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
hrm
As a victim (cause we are still out here, you know)
As a person who watch people jump to their deaths
As a person who still wakes up in sweats and has lingering pain.
I am against the proposed mosque
-Why? Not religion. Sensitivity. We can't even get the WTC back up and running yet. Do I believe there will be a time it will be a non-issue, yes. I just feel its still too soon. If the WTC stood in it's glory, rebuilt and a testament to strength and healing.. if I could walk again on those hollowed grounds to remember my friends lost, my own personal life lost (because its never been the same) then I think my opinion may be different.
Do I feel 'justified' in my response? Nope its just my humble opinion
For every family group out there so-called supporting it. I can almost say for certainty that there are family members out there who do not. I am still actively involved in support groups, grief counseling and heck its no joke they do keep track of us survivors (even to Texas!). I doubt any one small group can say it represents the whole group.
Frankly I say put it up to vote. I'm not in NYC anymore. So my vote wouldn't be cast. However I have settled with myself enough to know that time may not heal me fast enough, but it will move on with or without me. I must accept that WTC - Ground Zero - 9/11 is a shared pain.
Though each felt it differently. Victims families felt it as they found out the news. Survivors/Victims like myself felt as we fled for our lives (hobbling as best I could) and with blood in our minds. The world felt it as they saw it on the TV.
I think the debate will get heated and insane. I think its a shame that there will very little level-headed discussions. I think it should not be built now. Ask me in 10yrs and I hope to be more supportive. But we have not been able to have true closure with a gapping hole in lower Manhattan, I ask that we heal one wound before we are asked to stand up and brush ourselves off.
Its only human to feel protective of the place we saw so much pain. Our trust in our safety was broken. Our faith in humanity was tested. Some of us (me, obviously) need time to see that scab healed, live with the scar - if you will -before we can readily accept the truth that we all must move on.
Again to be clear. I don't think the mosque itself is a bad thing. I have accepted they are not all terrorist themselves. I just think now is not the 'best' time for this choice.
I'm not angry. Just regretful. It does still hurt.
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| Posted 8/18/10 9:39 PM |
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MrsA714
Baby #2 is here!
Member since 8/07 8806 total posts
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
Posted by justmefornow
Posted by MrsA714
Posted by Goldi0218
Posted by MrsA714
I think the only opinions that should matter (to those who want to build this) are the ones of people who lost loved ones on 9/11.
We ALL lost something on 9/11. I lost pieces of my heart and pieces of my soul. My opinion matters. I have not lived my life the same since.
I think my wording is a little off. Clearly we were ALL affected by the events of 9/11. And all of our opinions matter, but what I meant was if they're going to listen to the opinions/concerns of people, then those of the victims family members should carry a little more weight than let's say politicians from other states, etc. KWIM?
Some articles from families of Sept 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrow about the controversy.
9/11 Families for Peaceful Tomorrow
I never said what the opinions of these people were. My point was that if I was involved in this project, the opinions and feelings of the victims families (whether they are against or for it) would play a huge role in my decision. JMO
Message edited 8/18/2010 9:51:25 PM.
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| Posted 8/18/10 9:46 PM |
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MrsMick
Baby #2 debuts in March 2016!
Member since 9/09 1977 total posts
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
Now, people are all "What about freedom of religion?" That's fine, I can understand that BUT to build a mosque at this site is just wrong. It is salt in an open wound- a disrespect to the families of 9/11 and to many Americans. Yes, this mosque would be two blocks away but those two blocks were covered in ash. It's a grave site. And it's a grave site due to horrendous acts completed by Muslim extremists. Now, I do understand that not all Muslims are extremists and that there are peaceful Muslims out there. The location will become a landmark to those Muslim extremists. It is a trophy to them. They will travel just to pray at this site. It is sickening!
They insist on building there? Why? Just move to another location. No need for an elaborate mosque right near ground zero. It just isn't right, PERIOD.
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| Posted 8/18/10 9:57 PM |
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HoneyBadger
YourWorstNightmare.
Member since 10/06 15979 total posts
Name:
BahBahBlackJeep
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
Posted by Xelindrya
hrm
As a victim (cause we are still out here, you know)
As a person who watch people jump to their deaths
As a person who still wakes up in sweats and has lingering pain.
I am against the proposed mosque
-Why? Not religion. Sensitivity. We can't even get the WTC back up and running yet. Do I believe there will be a time it will be a non-issue, yes. I just feel its still too soon. If the WTC stood in it's glory, rebuilt and a testament to strength and healing.. if I could walk again on those hollowed grounds to remember my friends lost, my own personal life lost (because its never been the same) then I think my opinion may be different.
Do I feel 'justified' in my response? Nope its just my humble opinion
For every family group out there so-called supporting it. I can almost say for certainty that there are family members out there who do not. I am still actively involved in support groups, grief counseling and heck its no joke they do keep track of us survivors (even to Texas!). I doubt any one small group can say it represents the whole group.
Frankly I say put it up to vote. I'm not in NYC anymore. So my vote wouldn't be cast. However I have settled with myself enough to know that time may not heal me fast enough, but it will move on with or without me. I must accept that WTC - Ground Zero - 9/11 is a shared pain.
Though each felt it differently. Victims families felt it as they found out the news. Survivors/Victims like myself felt as we fled for our lives (hobbling as best I could) and with blood in our minds. The world felt it as they saw it on the TV.
I think the debate will get heated and insane. I think its a shame that there will very little level-headed discussions. I think it should not be built now. Ask me in 10yrs and I hope to be more supportive. But we have not been able to have true closure with a gapping hole in lower Manhattan, I ask that we heal one wound before we are asked to stand up and brush ourselves off.
Its only human to feel protective of the place we saw so much pain. Our trust in our safety was broken. Our faith in humanity was tested. Some of us (me, obviously) need time to see that scab healed, live with the scar - if you will -before we can readily accept the truth that we all must move on.
Again to be clear. I don't think the mosque itself is a bad thing. I have accepted they are not all terrorist themselves. I just think now is not the 'best' time for this choice.
I'm not angry. Just regretful. It does still hurt.
I have not said anything on this matter and I will not say anything on this matter.
Your post broke my heart. I'm so sorry you had to experience such a tragic event so closely, I'm sorry you still live with the pain a decade later. I watched it all unfold from the sanctuary of my home so I will never know what you and countless others had to endure.
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| Posted 8/18/10 11:09 PM |
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
I of all people know that having a differing opinion than the majority here can wreak havoc, but here goes:
I've been accused of being the biggest liberal in the world (not on here, but by friends, etc)
My best girlfriend is Muslim. I've been to mosques on Long Island. I've read the Quran and studied religion in college.
And I STILL am uneasy about a mosque near Ground Zero, and for one reason and one reason only:
Gov. Paterson (who, let's face it: is generally a tool) offered state-owned property far from the WTC site as a way to make peace, and that's still not good enough to those who wish to build nearby.
Look, 9/11 happened 10 years ago. Which isn't that long ago, and in most NYers minds, it happened yesterday.
I find it highly insensitive, even if the intent is good.
If I wanted to start something that I felt would benefit the community, and I heard from many people who said that they have nothing against me personally, but still felt that my idea would cause further pain and discomfort, I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't want to add to anymore pain.
Mosques are amazing places of peace, but maybe it'd do more good if it was moved to another location.
And just by me admitting my feelings does not mean I blame all Muslims. My friend herself says she even feels its wrong to do.
I'd love to hear from others who are Muslim if they support the decision or not.
There should also be an annoymous LIF poll, because I bet there'd be a lot of people voting it down, and that they are just scared to say it out loud.
Sometimes people are afraid that by saying they don't support it, that they will be pegged as racist. It's not always the truth. It's just uncomfortable for some people and its undeniable.
It's not just a mass of crumbled materials, it's also a graveyard for all of those who lost their lives, even though many were Muslim, too. It's sacred ground, real estate property be damned. 
They should take the state help and move it somewhere else, if they really care about creating a sense of community.
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| Posted 8/18/10 11:20 PM |
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
I have to say . I know many survivors like yourself that cannot agree to do this (not because they are against that whole religion)but just because they feel the same as you. Thank you for sharing. I will not say my feelings because I feel it would be a disservice.
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| Posted 8/18/10 11:27 PM |
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
Posted by Pray4Baby2010
I understand that not all Muslims are extremists and of course not all of them agree with what some of them did with the WTC
that being said, why are they fighting so hard to be by the wtc site- I'm sorry I just think its insensitive.
And on 9/11
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| Posted 8/18/10 11:30 PM |
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
Posted by Kierasmom
I do not think it should be so close to the WTC site. I understand not all Muslims should be held responsible for it. But the fact is that radical Muslims are the ones that are responsible for killing thousands of lives, destroying new york's skyline forever and throwing this country into an economic downward spiral. How do we know that some of the people visiting this new Mosque are not radical themselves? If one was in place already I would not say it should be torn down. But I think to put one so close to the site is insensitive and is only going to start fights. People going to visit the area are going to pay respect. I could only imagine that walking past a Mosque on the way to the site might stir up many feelings for people and I could definitely see fights breaking out. Which means the city is going to have to keep police in the area. Personally I feel as if the police have much better things to do.
As far as where the cut off should be, I cannot answer that as I do not know the area well enough. I have read that the proposed mosque is 2 blocks away, not 3 blocks as some other posters said. And that many of the victims families find it insensitive because their loved ones remains were scattered for blocks near the WTC. People view the area as a burial ground because for some of these people there was no body recovered. The area is considered sacred to them because their loved ones bodies perished and burned. They do not have a "body" to go to to remember when they feel the need to. To build a Mosque on what relatives view as a burial ground is wrong IMO.
I think you worded this beautifully... and powerfully!!!
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| Posted 8/18/10 11:44 PM |
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Kidsaplenty
Sister love
Member since 2/06 5971 total posts
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Stephanie
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
Posted by speakthetruth
And I STILL am uneasy about a mosque near Ground Zero, and for one reason and one reason only:
Gov. Paterson (who, let's face it: is generally a tool) offered state-owned property far from the WTC site as a way to make peace, and that's still not good enough to those who wish to build nearby.
From what I understand, they need it in that location because other mosques in the area are filled to capacity and regularly have to turn worshipers away. That might not seem like a big deal to some, but being unable to attend Friday prayers is a serious offense for a Muslim-it is mandatory for the men. That is why there is such a need for another mosque in the area.
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| Posted 8/19/10 12:00 AM |
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MrsH2009
Thank you St. Gerard!
Member since 8/09 6631 total posts
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M
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
I'm not sure how I feel, but for all of you posting that America was founded on religious freedom and tolerance, sorry that is not true. The English that came over didn't want to follow the Anglican Church, but they were still Christian (in many cases Catholic.) Other religions were not represented. Colonists sent priests to try to convert the Native tribes to Christianity. I don't find that very tolerant.
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| Posted 8/19/10 12:39 AM |
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MaMaTeenie
Party of 5
Member since 4/08 6489 total posts
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Mommy
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Re: Having trouble understanding this - Mosque at WTC site
Posted by BigB
I'll bite...I am not ignorant...instead, I carry the images of 9/11 in my head every day. I buried my cousin and a good friend because of the massacre that took place.
My husband worked in Tower II and would be dead had fate not worked that day.
So, no...I don't think it is a really good idea to build a mosque in that area. The men who steered those planes into the towers, the pentagon, and into the field in PA were terrorists...Islamic terrorists...killing in the name of their God....so yeah, I am a little biased...just a little.....
I agree and have been closely effected by the events of 9/11 as so many NYers were. The terrorists were living in this country as Americans and I'm sure they were going to worship where they lived. The thought of an extremist having the opportunity to come and worship in a place so close to the wound makes me ill. That would be a slap in the face of the countless people who lost their lives or had their lives forever changed by those events.
What if Hitlers followers wanted to build and worship and celebrate their "culture"on the grounds of concentration camps. What if the Japanese decided to develop sacred ground at Pearl Harbor? Would that be ok? Not with me.
I just don't get it. Why there? Why? Yes, it may be there "right" as Americans, but how about having a little sensitivity? How about thinking with your heart and not making this an I have a right to blah, blah, blah. Think (not you all, the people who want to build the mosque) Think about the people who are still heart broken and will forever have visions of that horrible day. Not all Muslims are terrorists, well no duh! That goes without saying, but some Muslims are terrorists and the fact is they lived amoungst us and would be visiting that very place and probably like PP said coming from far and wide just to do so. Let them all have a good laugh with their terrorist buddies. BNo thank you. IMO this doesn't have to be a rights issue, this is a matter of the heart.
(edited because i was writing on my blackberry and it sent to soon)
Message edited 8/19/2010 7:41:53 AM.
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| Posted 8/19/10 7:34 AM |
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