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Jugglemom
LIF Adolescent
Member since 3/12 809 total posts
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Just a few points from a legal standpoint:
A boat is not a motor vehicle.
The placards on the boat are suggestions and not legally binding.
A charge of criminal negligence is very difficult to prove.
I would be very surprised if anyone were convicted. The fact that the FBI are involved is not dispositive of anything. They needed to bring the boat up no matter what as the fuel can create an environmental issue. The FBI have no legal jurisdiction in this case anyway (so long as there are no additional facts).
The standards are different for a commercial captain. When looking at criminal negligence the standard used is of the reasonable prudent person. This is a fluid standard. For a commercially licensed captain it would be the standard of a commercial captain. For a regular boater the standard would be that of a reasonable boater and not that of the average person.
It was a very stupid, fatal and tragic accident but in my personal opinion it does not rise to the level of criminal conduct no matter how devastating it is.
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Posted 7/12/12 3:30 PM  |
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nrthshgrl
It goes fast. Pay attention.
Member since 7/05 57538 total posts
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by Jugglemom
Just a few points from a legal standpoint:
A boat is not a motor vehicle.
The placards on the boat are suggestions and not legally binding.
A charge of criminal negligence is very difficult to prove.
I would be very surprised if anyone were convicted. The fact that the FBI are involved is not dispositive of anything. They needed to bring the boat up no matter what as the fuel can create an environmental issue. The FBI have no legal jurisdiction in this case anyway (so long as there are no additional facts).
The standards are different for a commercial captain. When looking at criminal negligence the standard used is of the reasonable prudent person. This is a fluid standard. For a commercially licensed captain it would be the standard of a commercial captain. For a regular boater the standard would be that of a reasonable boater and not that of the average person.
It was a very stupid, fatal and tragic accident but in my personal opinion it does not rise to the level of criminal conduct no matter how devastating it is.
Are you an attorney? I ask because I've been waiting for a criminal attorney to weigh in!
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| Posted 7/12/12 3:55 PM |
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Jugglemom
LIF Adolescent
Member since 3/12 809 total posts
Name:
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by nrthshgrl
Posted by Jugglemom
Just a few points from a legal standpoint:
A boat is not a motor vehicle.
The placards on the boat are suggestions and not legally binding.
A charge of criminal negligence is very difficult to prove.
I would be very surprised if anyone were convicted. The fact that the FBI are involved is not dispositive of anything. They needed to bring the boat up no matter what as the fuel can create an environmental issue. The FBI have no legal jurisdiction in this case anyway (so long as there are no additional facts).
The standards are different for a commercial captain. When looking at criminal negligence the standard used is of the reasonable prudent person. This is a fluid standard. For a commercially licensed captain it would be the standard of a commercial captain. For a regular boater the standard would be that of a reasonable boater and not that of the average person.
It was a very stupid, fatal and tragic accident but in my personal opinion it does not rise to the level of criminal conduct no matter how devastating it is.
Are you an attorney? I ask because I've been waiting for a criminal attorney to weigh in!
I am an attorney but not criminal law. I did, however, clerk for a federal judge in the city way back when, so I do have some experience in the area but am not an expert.
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| Posted 7/12/12 4:02 PM |
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tara73
carseat nerd
Member since 11/09 3669 total posts
Name:
Buttercup
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by Jugglemom
The fact that the FBI are involved is not dispositive of anything. They needed to bring the boat up no matter what as the fuel can create an environmental issue. The FBI have no legal jurisdiction in this case anyway (so long as there are no additional facts).
The FBI does not have a business raising sunken vessels. The FBI's team is specialized and experienced in preserving the scene as a crime scene wouldn't be called in for a normal sunken vessel retrieval. The FBI doesn't have jurisdiction, no, but they were called in specifically for their expertise in the area of crime scene preservation while raising a sunken vessel per news reports. There are salvage companies which do this for a fee and it would be paid for by the boat's insurance. Usually the insurance or boat owner would pay to have their boat retrieved for them, even when it's at the docks. The FBI certainly doesn't show up, and it certainly isn't done at taxpayer expense.
So, by that logic, the FBI's involvement DOES speak volumes about the investigation. If they were confident that everything occurred the way it was stated, if they were confident that they couldn't find anything to charge to boat's owner or the driver of the vessel with, why have the FBI there? Why not hire Seatow to come in and raise it (or remove the fuel if it can't be raised) Why the desire to preserve the integrity of the vessel as a crime scene? Boats sink all the time, they capsize, boats have fire, hell people even die when boats sink and there isn't this level of investigation if everything happens on the up and up. Why close off the harbor to other vessels while raising the boat? Why all these extra steps that don't happen when 99.9% of other boats sink???
So why does the FBI show up if they're not looking for some reason to either charge them with something or clear them? And just because we don't think there's a way to charge them, doesn't mean that they won't charge them with something anyways.
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| Posted 7/12/12 4:41 PM |
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maymama
my little loves
Member since 8/08 18453 total posts
Name:
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by tarabelle99
Posted by Jugglemom
The fact that the FBI are involved is not dispositive of anything. They needed to bring the boat up no matter what as the fuel can create an environmental issue. The FBI have no legal jurisdiction in this case anyway (so long as there are no additional facts).
The FBI does not have a business raising sunken vessels. The FBI's team is specialized and experienced in preserving the scene as a crime scene wouldn't be called in for a normal sunken vessel retrieval. The FBI doesn't have jurisdiction, no, but they were called in specifically for their expertise in the area of crime scene preservation while raising a sunken vessel per news reports. There are salvage companies which do this for a fee and it would be paid for by the boat's insurance. Usually the insurance or boat owner would pay to have their boat retrieved for them, even when it's at the docks. The FBI certainly doesn't show up, and it certainly isn't done at taxpayer expense.
So, by that logic, the FBI's involvement DOES speak volumes about the investigation. If they were confident that everything occurred the way it was stated, if they were confident that they couldn't find anything to charge to boat's owner or the driver of the vessel with, why have the FBI there? Why not hire Seatow to come in and raise it (or remove the fuel if it can't be raised) Why the desire to preserve the integrity of the vessel as a crime scene? Boats sink all the time, they capsize, boats have fire, hell people even die when boats sink and there isn't this level of investigation if everything happens on the up and up. Why close off the harbor to other vessels while raising the boat? Why all these extra steps that don't happen when 99.9% of other boats sink???
So why does the FBI show up if they're not looking for some reason to either charge them with something or clear them? And just because we don't think there's a way to charge them, doesn't mean that they won't charge them with something anyways.
Nassau County did not have the means to raise the boat so they had to go elsewhere for help. The FBI divers were able to provide the resources.
ETA - if this " The FBI's team is specialized and experienced in preserving the scene as a crime scene wouldn't be called in for a normal sunken vessel retrieval" were the case - why has Nassau County taken over the investigation in East Rockaway where the boat was taken for further investigation. FBI is hands off now.
Message edited 7/12/2012 5:05:14 PM.
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| Posted 7/12/12 5:03 PM |
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tara73
carseat nerd
Member since 11/09 3669 total posts
Name:
Buttercup
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by maymama
Nassau County did not have the means to raise the boat so they had to go elsewhere for help. The FBI divers were able to provide the resources.
ETA - if this " The FBI's team is specialized and experienced in preserving the scene as a crime scene wouldn't be called in for a normal sunken vessel retrieval" were the case - why has Nassau County taken over the investigation in East Rockaway where the boat was taken for further investigation. FBI is hands off now.
I never said the FBI was INVESTIGATING anything. FBI was supposedly brought in specifically for their expertise in preserving the integrity of the boat as a crime scene while raising it, not to investigate anything.
Nassau Cty could have outsourced to Seatow or another private towing/salvage company. When they tow your car after an accident, do they bring in the FBI to do it? When there are boat fires or other boating accidents, do they call the FBI's specialized team in? No, if it's beyond their ability, they call Seatow or another tow/salvage company to take the boat to wherever they need to, and the insurance company is likely billed.
So why the need to preserve it as a crime scene if they accept what they were told by witnesses and the people on the boat?
What are they looking for that they needed to bring the FBI's team in over a private tow/salvage company?
ETA: I don't think they would call in a specialized team from the FBI if it were solely life jackets they were looking for or because the boat owners are being sued. The police don't care about preserving the boat for a civil liability lawsuit. This is a lot of money and resources being used on an investigation that appears pretty cut and dry (boat capsized after hit by wave, overloaded). IDK, something in my gut just tells me there is more that they're looking for than just overloaded or lifejackets. Plus what is the repercussions for the lifejackets? Isn't it just a ticket? Would they really go through all this to issue a ticket? Why the added step of the FBI? There has to be something we're missing, something else they're looking for.
ETA2: And the NCPD would care about the boat being so carefully preserved if they were planning on using as evidence against someone, right? Again, it goes back to what they're looking for. Why go through the extra steps of having the FBI and making sure that there is no wiggle room to throw out evidence for contamination in a trial if they had no reason to believe they could charge someone with something?
Message edited 7/12/2012 5:25:31 PM.
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| Posted 7/12/12 5:13 PM |
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Tah-wee-ZAH
Kisses
Member since 5/05 15952 total posts
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
My BIL is a trial attorney with a specialty in maritime law (he practices in Boston, graduate of Kings Point/Harvard Law). He's one of very few in the country.
I think he's traveling on a case right now but I'm anxious to hear his opinion on all of this.
If there are any lawsuits, I'm sure he and his firm will be contacted. They may have already.
His pleasure boat is really the only one my immediate family has been on. He is very strict captain.
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| Posted 7/12/12 5:15 PM |
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maymama
my little loves
Member since 8/08 18453 total posts
Name:
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by tarabelle99
Nassau Cty could have outsourced to Seatow or another private towing/salvage company. When they tow your car after an accident, do they bring in the FBI to do it? When there are boat fires or other boating accidents, do they call the FBI's specialized team in? No, if it's beyond their ability, they call Seatow or another tow/salvage company to take the boat to wherever they need to, and the insurance company is likely billed.
So why the need to preserve it as a crime scene if they accept what they were told by witnesses and the people on the boat?
What are they looking for that they needed to bring the FBI's team in over a private tow/salvage company?
Of course, whoever brought the boat up was going to do their best to preserve it. There is an investigation that needs to happen.
The FBI didn't transport the boat, Nassau hired a private flatbed company to move it. I highly doubt Seatow has the capability to raise the boat if Nassau County couldn't do it. In fact, the FBI was not even sure they were going to be able to raise the boat due to the current and mud/muck that the boat was stuck in (the reason it took 3 days to do it in the first place.)
Just saying, i don't think the FBI has any interest here other than helping Nassau County do whatever was needed to bring the boat up in order to look for more information on why this happened.
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| Posted 7/12/12 5:23 PM |
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maymama
my little loves
Member since 8/08 18453 total posts
Name:
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by tarabelle99
ETA: I don't think they would call in a specialized team from the FBI if it were solely life jackets they were looking for or because the boat owners are being sued. The police don't care about preserving the boat for a civil liability lawsuit. This is a lot of money and resources being used on an investigation that appears pretty cut and dry (boat capsized after hit by wave, overloaded). IDK, something in my gut just tells me there is more that they're looking for than just overloaded or lifejackets. Plus what is the repercussions for the lifejackets? Isn't it just a ticket? Would they really go through all this to issue a ticket? Why the added step of the FBI? There has to be something we're missing, something else they're looking for.
it has already been reported that NC wants to investigate the boat to see if there was a hole or some sort of damage (or any other clues) that could lead to the boat capsizing and sinking. they are trying to rule everything out.
Message edited 7/12/2012 5:31:28 PM.
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| Posted 7/12/12 5:24 PM |
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tara73
carseat nerd
Member since 11/09 3669 total posts
Name:
Buttercup
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Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
So then why is NCPD grasping at straws.
No witnesses report the boat striking anything, nor do any occupants. They don't report taking on any water. The reports are consistently that they rolled after a wave hit them. They already know the boat was overloaded.
Seatow and other companies are just as experienced raising boats, they have divers, air pillows, gas powered pumps... but they probably lack the crime scene aspect though.
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| Posted 7/12/12 5:33 PM |
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maymama
my little loves
Member since 8/08 18453 total posts
Name:
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by tarabelle99
So then why is NCPD grasping at straws.
No witnesses report the boat striking anything, nor do any occupants. They don't report taking on any water. The reports are consistently that they rolled after a wave hit them. They already know the boat was overloaded.
Seatow and other companies are just as experienced raising boats, they have divers, air pillows, gas powered pumps... but they probably lack the crime scene aspect though.
they cant roll over and say "boat rolled, it was overcrowded" they have to do their due diligence and investigate as with any accident. even moreso since lives were lost.
they investiage as thoroughly as possible so they CAN rule everything else out.
its all SOP.
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| Posted 7/12/12 5:39 PM |
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tara73
carseat nerd
Member since 11/09 3669 total posts
Name:
Buttercup
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Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
And they're going BEYOND due diligence at this point, IMO.
They know the boat rolled, witness reports saw it.
Unless they're looking to charge or clear someone then they're going over and above on this.
ETA: I love the new quick reply box but that submit button's touchy
Message edited 7/12/2012 5:46:09 PM.
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| Posted 7/12/12 5:45 PM |
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Jugglemom
LIF Adolescent
Member since 3/12 809 total posts
Name:
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
The FBI is involved because despite witness accounts a determination needs to be made as to whether there was any wrongdoing. Obviously, to make such a determination an investigation needs to proceed. If a subcontractor were to do this then they would not be able to preserve the chain of custody. Since the federal courts have jurisdiction alongside state courts in issues of admiralty law then the FBI is the logical choice. However, to the extent there was wrongdoing in this case it would more than likely to be tried at the state level as you the federal court system does not commonly take on these specific admiralty issues.
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| Posted 7/12/12 6:27 PM |
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Ladybug63
Ohh... baby
Member since 5/06 2527 total posts
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Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Like I said before, there are some relatively disturbing "rumors" floating around. There was a private company hired to salvage the boat but that day they decided to have the FBI do it instead. There are plenty of company's that could have salvaged the boat, they went with the FBI for a reason. It's my understanding that 2 kids were in the cabin and the 3rd was else where on the vessel. If there will be criminal / civil charges filed it is imperative to conduct a full investigation
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| Posted 7/12/12 7:33 PM |
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MsSissy
xoxoxo
Member since 3/07 39159 total posts
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by tarabelle99
And they're going BEYOND due diligence at this point, IMO.
Can I just ask.
And this may come out snarky or nasty but it's not meant to be.
If one of your family members died in this accident, would you still think they were going beyond due diligence?
They're doing what they have to do for a reason. We may not know what it is right now, but I'm sure the family members are grateful for it.
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| Posted 7/12/12 7:52 PM |
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tara73
carseat nerd
Member since 11/09 3669 total posts
Name:
Buttercup
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Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
MsSissy, yes I would be satisfied at this point knowing that the boat rolled because of a wave and because there were too many people on it. Would it hurt to know that I put myself and child into that position? Yes, but I would accept it being what it is. And I would wonder why they were dragging it out if that is what really happened.
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| Posted 7/12/12 8:05 PM |
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maymama
my little loves
Member since 8/08 18453 total posts
Name:
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by Ladybug63
Like I said before, there are some relatively disturbing "rumors" floating around. There was a private company hired to salvage the boat but that day they decided to have the FBI do it instead. There are plenty of company's that could have salvaged the boat, they went with the FBI for a reason. It's my understanding that 2 kids were in the cabin and the 3rd was else where on the vessel. If there will be criminal / civil charges filed it is imperative to conduct a full investigation
you keep mentioning these rumors. how are you attached to this?
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| Posted 7/12/12 8:14 PM |
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tara73
carseat nerd
Member since 11/09 3669 total posts
Name:
Buttercup
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by maymama
Posted by Ladybug63
Like I said before, there are some relatively disturbing "rumors" floating around. There was a private company hired to salvage the boat but that day they decided to have the FBI do it instead. There are plenty of company's that could have salvaged the boat, they went with the FBI for a reason. It's my understanding that 2 kids were in the cabin and the 3rd was else where on the vessel. If there will be criminal / civil charges filed it is imperative to conduct a full investigation
you keep mentioning these rumors. how are you attached to this?
I could swear I heard one either News 12 or another news station (in CT) very early in the AM the other day that a salvage company had been hired, then all of a sudden it was FBI coming in so that the crime scene could be preserved. But, I was laying in bed with my girls so I may have misheard it.
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| Posted 7/12/12 8:26 PM |
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Marcie
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by Ladybug63
Like I said before, there are some relatively disturbing "rumors" floating around. There was a private company hired to salvage the boat but that day they decided to have the FBI do it instead. There are plenty of company's that could have salvaged the boat, they went with the FBI for a reason. It's my understanding that 2 kids were in the cabin and the 3rd was else where on the vessel. If there will be criminal / civil charges filed it is imperative to conduct a full investigation
We have not heard of any of these 'rumors' so please elaborate
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| Posted 7/12/12 9:41 PM |
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nrthshgrl
It goes fast. Pay attention.
Member since 7/05 57538 total posts
Name:
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
I'm not seeing that the police are grasping at straws to explain this. IMO, they're ruling out every possibility & preserving a crime scene so that if this guy is brought up on charges, there will be no reasonable doubt.
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| Posted 7/12/12 10:04 PM |
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Ladybug63
Ohh... baby
Member since 5/06 2527 total posts
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
I'm not attached, I know the area very well, I know close friends of the family's, I've boated in those waters my entire life & have attended that show by boat many, many times. What I've heard is exactly that... "Rumors". I'd never repeat something I didn't 100% believe on a public forum involving something of this magnitude.
Bottom line is that I do believe the overcrowded/wave story but I also believe there are a few key bits of information leading up to the tragedy that are missing. I can't say it would have changed the outcome  however I think a clearer picture will come out in time. It really is a tremendous loss for the community :(
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| Posted 7/12/12 10:56 PM |
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nrthshgrl
It goes fast. Pay attention.
Member since 7/05 57538 total posts
Name:
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
This didn't sound like you were basing it off your boat and area knowledge:
Posted by Ladybug63
There are a lot of details that have not been released to the public. If and when these details are released I think a lot of us will have a new point of view on the matter :(
If you said I'm sure, or I'm guessing, then I'd say it's speculation. This was written as a factual statement... someone who is privy to details of the case.
In which case, imo either don't say anything about it if you are in a confidential position or spill it.
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| Posted 7/13/12 8:01 AM |
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LMFitz
life is good
Member since 5/05 2013 total posts
Name:
L
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
I never post on these sorts of threads- but the references to what is heard on the news is disturbing......unfortunately you can't trust any of the news outlets as the story is developing. We just have to wait for a final report.....and event that, be skeptical of what is shared publicly.
DH is in law enforcement. I can't even tell you how many times he's been quoted in the paper, without having been interviewed or providing any statement. Further, the majority of what hits the public news outlets is only partially true......the media outlets manipulate everything.
Just a caution to those who take news reports as "truth".
Such a sad tragedy. I grew up in the area, boat the waters regularly, and now have a child.....it's just heart wrenching from all angles.
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| Posted 7/13/12 8:16 AM |
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maymama
my little loves
Member since 8/08 18453 total posts
Name:
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by nrthshgrl
This didn't sound like you were basing it off your boat and area knowledge:
Posted by Ladybug63
There are a lot of details that have not been released to the public. If and when these details are released I think a lot of us will have a new point of view on the matter :(
If you said I'm sure, or I'm guessing, then I'd say it's speculation. This was written as a factual statement... someone who is privy to details of the case.
In which case, imo either don't say anything about it if you are in a confidential position or spill it.
this - OR go to the police perhaps?
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| Posted 7/13/12 8:21 AM |
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nrthshgrl
It goes fast. Pay attention.
Member since 7/05 57538 total posts
Name:
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by maymama
Posted by nrthshgrl
This didn't sound like you were basing it off your boat and area knowledge:
Posted by Ladybug63
There are a lot of details that have not been released to the public. If and when these details are released I think a lot of us will have a new point of view on the matter :(
If you said I'm sure, or I'm guessing, then I'd say it's speculation. This was written as a factual statement... someone who is privy to details of the case.
In which case, imo either don't say anything about it if you are in a confidential position or spill it.
this - OR go to the police perhaps?
Spilling it to us was my preference  
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| Posted 7/13/12 8:32 AM |
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