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Official: Capsized boat had enough life jackets
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jerseypanda
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by nrthshgrl
Posted by nicrae
It was a horrible accident and jail time isn't going to change what happened. The Captain lost his 11 year old daughter. Don't you think he already paid the ultimate price for his mistake?
I agree, he paid the ultimate price & that he truly has been punished "enough".
But then I consider drunk drivers. People that thought they were "sober enough" to drive. Kill a family member in their car & take other people's lives (even a friend's) as a result of their negligence & I reconsidered what "enough" was.
It was a stupid, stupid, stupid mistake. Yes he paid the price. But if you don't punish the negligence in this case, if you don't have criminal penalties, then I wonder when does it become a criminal action? Do you say we won't punish you because your child was killed due to your negligence & that's punishment enough?
Also if the boat owner was aboard that boat, he is just as guilty as the captain IMO. If he lent his brother the boat & never saw it loaded, than I'd say his guilty is equivalent to the car owner whose friend borrows the car, gets drunk & plows into a carful of people.
You bring up some really good discussion points.
I guess for me, the difference is that with drinking and driving, it is clearly illegal. So if you decide to drink and drive and you 'think' you are under the limit and then kill someone and find out you are over the limit, you are now open to being charged because it was against the law.
I don't believe that the capacity recommendations on boats are anything that would be considered against the law if you overcrowd the boat. I think for sure you open yourself up to a lawsuit, but I'm not sure if someone can be charged for that negligence, no matter how much people think they should be.
Think about car seats. The new recommendation is that parents keep their children rear facing until at least 2 years old. That is the recommendation by the manufacturer (similar to the maximum capacity recommendation by the boat manufacturer). I apologize for the horrible example, but if a parent decided to turn their child forward facing at the age of 12 months, was in a car crash and the child died due to a severe neck injury that most likely could have been prevented had they been rear facing.... I highly doubt the parent would be brought up on charges. They would have paid the ultimate price for going against the recommendation and will forever live with regret and the 'what ifs'. Or to take it a step further, what if you had a friend's child in your car and that happened? The other parent might be able to sue you, but there wouldn't be any charges.
I'm interested to see what direction this case takes. My opinion is that there won't be any charges filed. But there may be a lawsuit from the parent of the friend who was on board. (although if the parent of that child was on the boat too, I don't see how they can hold someone else responsible as they allowed the child to be on an overcrowded boat)
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Posted 7/12/12 10:31 AM  |
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Chatham-Chick
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by KristenRSF
And yes, they did pay the ultimate price, but so did another parent who was not on the boat and entrusted her child in the hands of the adults that were present.
It's been reported that Victoria's mom and her older brother were both on the boat as well.
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| Posted 7/12/12 10:31 AM |
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KristenRSF
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by Chatham-Chick
Posted by KristenRSF
And yes, they did pay the ultimate price, but so did another parent who was not on the boat and entrusted her child in the hands of the adults that were present.
It's been reported that Victoria's mom and her older brother were both on the boat as well.
ugh. Originally they said she wasn't there.
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| Posted 7/12/12 10:34 AM |
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nicrae
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by nrthshgrl
Posted by nicrae
It was a horrible accident and jail time isn't going to change what happened. The Captain lost his 11 year old daughter. Don't you think he already paid the ultimate price for his mistake?
I agree, he paid the ultimate price & that he truly has been punished "enough".
But then I consider drunk drivers. People that thought they were "sober enough" to drive. Kill a family member in their car & take other people's lives (even a friend's) as a result of their negligence & I reconsidered what "enough" was.
It was a stupid, stupid, stupid mistake. Yes he paid the price. But if you don't punish the negligence in this case, if you don't have criminal penalties, then I wonder when does it become a criminal action? Do you say we won't punish you because your child was killed due to your negligence & that's punishment enough?
Also if the boat owner was aboard that boat, he is just as guilty as the captain IMO. If he lent his brother the boat & never saw it loaded, than I'd say his guilty is equivalent to the car owner whose friend borrows the car, gets drunk & plows into a carful of people.
As someone whose brother was killed by a drunk driver I still do not equate them. Someone who drinks and drives makes the conscious decision to get into a car with total disregard for the law.
There is no maximum capacity on a boat that size. It doesn't not say anywhere that on the boat you can only have 10 people. I come from a boating world and yes I do agree that there were way too many people on the boat. There is no question about that. However it wasn't a willful decision to ignore a regulation.
The boat owner is the captain. The guy driving the boat is not the captain. So should both be charged?
It was stupid to have that many people on the boat but have you (general you) never made a stupid decision? Had one too many people pile into your car when you were a teenager? Made a left in front of another car and just make it? Every day people make stupid choices and luckily never find out the consequences of those choices. Had those children not died, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
It was an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury. (definition of accident)
Message edited 7/12/2012 10:52:27 AM.
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| Posted 7/12/12 10:38 AM |
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CunningOne
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by Laura1976
Posted by chmlengr
It's been a complete zoo at the TR Marina with the news crews camping out. My kids go to summer rec camp at the park there and I'll be happy when the boat is moved out of Oyster Bay.
But I think they are grasping at straws trying to find a cause for the boat to sink. It was overloaded, top heavy and the captain made a sharp right turn and tipped the boat!
ughhh, drop off has been a nightmare at camp! Hope you weren't one of the people I blocked in yesterday, when I gave up trying to find a parking spot!
Laura, I ended up going to the other side entrance by the RR tracks... I would have double parked in the lot if I could jump in and out to get the kids, but I have the baby with me too! Not so easy!
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| Posted 7/12/12 10:47 AM |
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nicrae
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by tarabelle99
Posted by nicrae
It was a horrible accident and jail time isn't going to change what happened. The Captain lost his 11 year old daughter. Don't you think he already paid the ultimate price for his mistake?
"Paid the ultimate price"? So the owner and captain deserve no further punishment, monetarily or criminally? If that is so, why do we still charge drunk drivers or others whose negligence has injured/killed people?
That's an emotional sentiment to think "they've suffered enough" but it's not logical. This is why there are different levels of punishment based on intent. Obviously, the harshest punishments are left for those who act with intent.
Lost my brother to a drunk driver. The money we got for that will never compensate for the loss of him. NEVER.
I don't think you can compare drunk driving to this. It isn't even in the same category.
If there are different levels of punishment based on intent then what is the punishment when you had no intent?
So should the parents that allowed their children on to the crowded boat also be punished? They made the decision to get on that boat with their children. What was their intent? To see fireworks?
That is what I don't understand. What would be the right punishment for the owner? Jail time? Lose his house? Lose his other child? What will truly make this better for the other parents who lost their children?
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| Posted 7/12/12 10:47 AM |
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tara73
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Member since 11/09 3669 total posts
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by nicrae
Posted by tarabelle99
Posted by nicrae
It was a horrible accident and jail time isn't going to change what happened. The Captain lost his 11 year old daughter. Don't you think he already paid the ultimate price for his mistake?
"Paid the ultimate price"? So the owner and captain deserve no further punishment, monetarily or criminally? If that is so, why do we still charge drunk drivers or others whose negligence has injured/killed people?
That's an emotional sentiment to think "they've suffered enough" but it's not logical. This is why there are different levels of punishment based on intent. Obviously, the harshest punishments are left for those who act with intent.
Lost my brother to a drunk driver. The money we got for that will never compensate for the loss of him. NEVER.
I don't think you can compare drunk driving to this. It isn't even in the same category.
If there are different levels of punishment based on intent then what is the punishment when you had no intent?
So should the parents that allowed their children on to the crowded boat also be punished? They made the decision to get on that boat with their children. What was their intent? To see fireworks?
That is what I don't understand. What would be the right punishment for the owner? Jail time? Lose his house? Lose his other child? What will truly make this better for the other parents who lost their children?
lWe also charge people who overload cars and a person dies. Who speed, text etc and a person dies they can be charged with negligence.
I'm sorry your brother died, but it IS comparable. A drunk driver, just like a captain who overloads his boat, a contractor who uses subpar materials, etc etc may not INTEND for injury/death to happen, but are they not culpable criminally and/or civilly when an accident does occur?
Yes, they are held responsible. Just losing someone isn't always punishment enough. Sometimes there are laws which are also broken by the negligent act, some are civil, some criminal. Just "losing someone" doesn't negate the laws, be them civil or criminal.
If I have a party on my deck and it separates from the house, I am responsible for the injuries sustained on my property. If it is found that the deck was overloaded and someone dies, even if it is my own child, then yes, I should be help responsible. If it is found that I broke a law under which I could face criminal prosecution, then yes, I should be charged.
So, ultimately, if there is a law that was broken, the boat's owner and captain SHOULD be charged under it crminially. If it was only civil, they should be sued. It is their RESPONSIBILITY to operate their boat in a SAFE manner, overloading it to the point where people had to be spilling over on it, is not SAFE.
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| Posted 7/12/12 10:54 AM |
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nrthshgrl
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by nicrae
Posted by nrthshgrl
Posted by nicrae
It was a horrible accident and jail time isn't going to change what happened. The Captain lost his 11 year old daughter. Don't you think he already paid the ultimate price for his mistake?
I agree, he paid the ultimate price & that he truly has been punished "enough".
But then I consider drunk drivers. People that thought they were "sober enough" to drive. Kill a family member in their car & take other people's lives (even a friend's) as a result of their negligence & I reconsidered what "enough" was.
It was a stupid, stupid, stupid mistake. Yes he paid the price. But if you don't punish the negligence in this case, if you don't have criminal penalties, then I wonder when does it become a criminal action? Do you say we won't punish you because your child was killed due to your negligence & that's punishment enough?
Also if the boat owner was aboard that boat, he is just as guilty as the captain IMO. If he lent his brother the boat & never saw it loaded, than I'd say his guilty is equivalent to the car owner whose friend borrows the car, gets drunk & plows into a carful of people.
As someone whose brother was killed by a drunk driver I still do not equate them. Someone who drinks and drives makes the conscious decision to get into a car with total disregard for the law.
There is no maximum capacity on a boat that size. It doesn't not say anywhere that on the boat you can only have 10 people. I come from a boating world and yes I do agree that there were way too many people on the boat. There is no question about that. However it wasn't a willful decision to ignore a regulation.
The boat owner is the captain. The guy driving the boat is not the captain. So should both be charged?
It was stupid to have that many people on the boat but have you never made a stupid decision? Had one too many people pile into your car when you were a teenager? Made a left in front of another car and just make it? Every day people make stupid choices and luckily never find out the consequences of those choices. Had those children not died, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
It was an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury. (definition of accident)
There is a maximum weight capacity on every boat. It's a manufacturer plaque - at least it's been on every motorboat I've been on. It may even be on our sailboat but it's definitely on boats with a motor.
If it's not a legal limit, it's certainly a recommended limit, no? Maybe the drunk driving wasn't a good analogy - except to say there is a legal limit to the amount of alcohol you can have & people often misjudge their level of intoxication. Let's say this was an overloaded ferryboat. Does it change your opinion on criminal charges?
I've made plenty of stupid mistakes -as a teen & as an adult. None which resulted in anyone getting killed. How do you equate stupid mistakes made as a teen overloading your car with an adult taking at least 2x the capacity on a boat? it wasn't this guy's first time watching fireworks on Fourth of July. He's done it plenty of times to know that the water is choppy & he knew it was too many people on the boat. He stupidly ignored it. It was surely a factor of "I'm sure we'll be fine." but he still risked every person's life on that boat.
It was an accident. Yes. It was also negligent homicide - and at minimum involuntary manslaughter.
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| Posted 7/12/12 11:00 AM |
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Ophelia
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remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by jerseypanda
IMAGE
THIS WAS THE BOAT.
you have got to be kidding me.
sorry, no, I don't think any of these adults on board have paid enough if they let children on this dingy with 27 people on it. WHERE could they even stand.
those children DROWNED terrified, no doubt crying for their mommies or someone to come and save them.
I will be hot damned if my child is a "learning experience" for adults who had no ******* common sense in the first place.
the safety of a child, even if it's not yours SHOULD ALWAYS COME FIRST. before ANY entertainment. period.
this makes me want to barf. and punch people.
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| Posted 7/12/12 11:04 AM |
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KristenRSF
LIF Toddler
Member since 5/10 487 total posts
Name:
Kris
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by nrthshgrl
Posted by nicrae
Posted by nrthshgrl
Posted by nicrae
It was a horrible accident and jail time isn't going to change what happened. The Captain lost his 11 year old daughter. Don't you think he already paid the ultimate price for his mistake?
I agree, he paid the ultimate price & that he truly has been punished "enough".
But then I consider drunk drivers. People that thought they were "sober enough" to drive. Kill a family member in their car & take other people's lives (even a friend's) as a result of their negligence & I reconsidered what "enough" was.
It was a stupid, stupid, stupid mistake. Yes he paid the price. But if you don't punish the negligence in this case, if you don't have criminal penalties, then I wonder when does it become a criminal action? Do you say we won't punish you because your child was killed due to your negligence & that's punishment enough?
Also if the boat owner was aboard that boat, he is just as guilty as the captain IMO. If he lent his brother the boat & never saw it loaded, than I'd say his guilty is equivalent to the car owner whose friend borrows the car, gets drunk & plows into a carful of people.
As someone whose brother was killed by a drunk driver I still do not equate them. Someone who drinks and drives makes the conscious decision to get into a car with total disregard for the law.
There is no maximum capacity on a boat that size. It doesn't not say anywhere that on the boat you can only have 10 people. I come from a boating world and yes I do agree that there were way too many people on the boat. There is no question about that. However it wasn't a willful decision to ignore a regulation.
The boat owner is the captain. The guy driving the boat is not the captain. So should both be charged?
It was stupid to have that many people on the boat but have you never made a stupid decision? Had one too many people pile into your car when you were a teenager? Made a left in front of another car and just make it? Every day people make stupid choices and luckily never find out the consequences of those choices. Had those children not died, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
It was an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury. (definition of accident)
There is a maximum weight capacity on every boat. It's a manufacturer plaque - at least it's been on every motorboat I've been on. It may even be on our sailboat but it's definitely on boats with a motor.
If it's not a legal limit, it's certainly a recommended limit, no? Maybe the drunk driving wasn't a good analogy - except to say there is a legal limit to the amount of alcohol you can have & people often misjudge their level of intoxication. Let's say this was an overloaded ferryboat. Does it change your opinion on criminal charges?
I've made plenty of stupid mistakes -as a teen & as an adult. None which resulted in anyone getting killed. How do you equate stupid mistakes made as a teen overloading your car with an adult taking at least 2x the capacity on a boat? it wasn't this guy's first time watching fireworks on Fourth of July. He's done it plenty of times to know that the water is choppy & he knew it was too many people on the boat. He stupidly ignored it. It was surely a factor of "I'm sure we'll be fine." but he still risked every person's life on that boat.
It was an accident. Yes. It was also negligent homicide - and at minimum involuntary manslaughter.
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| Posted 7/12/12 11:05 AM |
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Chatham-Chick
*********************
Member since 5/05 10311 total posts
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by nrthshgrl
Posted by nicrae
Posted by nrthshgrl
Posted by nicrae
It was a horrible accident and jail time isn't going to change what happened. The Captain lost his 11 year old daughter. Don't you think he already paid the ultimate price for his mistake?
I agree, he paid the ultimate price & that he truly has been punished "enough".
But then I consider drunk drivers. People that thought they were "sober enough" to drive. Kill a family member in their car & take other people's lives (even a friend's) as a result of their negligence & I reconsidered what "enough" was.
It was a stupid, stupid, stupid mistake. Yes he paid the price. But if you don't punish the negligence in this case, if you don't have criminal penalties, then I wonder when does it become a criminal action? Do you say we won't punish you because your child was killed due to your negligence & that's punishment enough?
Also if the boat owner was aboard that boat, he is just as guilty as the captain IMO. If he lent his brother the boat & never saw it loaded, than I'd say his guilty is equivalent to the car owner whose friend borrows the car, gets drunk & plows into a carful of people.
As someone whose brother was killed by a drunk driver I still do not equate them. Someone who drinks and drives makes the conscious decision to get into a car with total disregard for the law.
There is no maximum capacity on a boat that size. It doesn't not say anywhere that on the boat you can only have 10 people. I come from a boating world and yes I do agree that there were way too many people on the boat. There is no question about that. However it wasn't a willful decision to ignore a regulation.
The boat owner is the captain. The guy driving the boat is not the captain. So should both be charged?
It was stupid to have that many people on the boat but have you never made a stupid decision? Had one too many people pile into your car when you were a teenager? Made a left in front of another car and just make it? Every day people make stupid choices and luckily never find out the consequences of those choices. Had those children not died, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
It was an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury. (definition of accident)
There is a maximum weight capacity on every boat. It's a manufacturer plaque - at least it's been on every motorboat I've been on. It may even be on our sailboat but it's definitely on boats with a motor.
If it's not a legal limit, it's certainly a recommended limit, no? Maybe the drunk driving wasn't a good analogy - except to say there is a legal limit to the amount of alcohol you can have & people often misjudge their level of intoxication. Let's say this was an overloaded ferryboat. Does it change your opinion on criminal charges?
I've made plenty of stupid mistakes -as a teen & as an adult. None which resulted in anyone getting killed. How do you equate stupid mistakes made as a teen overloading your car with an adult taking at least 2x the capacity on a boat? it wasn't this guy's first time watching fireworks on Fourth of July. He's done it plenty of times to know that the water is choppy & he knew it was too many people on the boat. He stupidly ignored it. It was surely a factor of "I'm sure we'll be fine." but he still risked every person's life on that boat.
It was an accident. Yes. It was also negligent homicide - and at minimum involuntary manslaughter.
From a capacity standpoint, I don't know if they have much on the captain or owner criminally:
The requirement for a placard is vessels under 20 ft. Up to 26 feet if it is an NMMA Certified builder, has a placard as well, though it is not a USCG requirement. Above 26 feet falls under the Yacht Certification program, whose placards do not include a persons capacity. Any builder who wishes to, may set a capacity level on any boat, as long as they understand that by doing so they accepy liability for setting that limit. On boats between 20 and 26 feet, there is a formula as used by the NMMA in the boat certification program. The formula however takes no consideration into the type of boat or its intended purpose, but instead uses only a hull displacement formula and weight allowance. Any builder has the right to simply downgrade these numbers to what they feel is proper. What the NMMA now uses to supercede the formula is the number of places a person cn safely sit according to the ABYC standards, while the vessel is underway at full power. It is not unreal for a 25 ft walkaround to have a capcity of 12 persons, which would be ridiculous. So by using the seating, it will typically limit that number back to a maximum of 8, which is what the builder will use (they can downgrade even more if they want to). Each seated position must meet specific criteria, and except for the driver, must include some sort of hanhold device, except for middle seats of bench type seats. the seats used for the rating must also be standard equipment.
This was what I found on the USCG site. "There are no Coast Guard regulations against exceeding the safe loading capacity, however, there may be State regulations or restrictions from your insurance company which prohibit this. There is a Coast Guard regulation that gives Coast Guard Boarding Officers the power to terminate the use of a boat (send it back to shore) if, in the judgment of the Boarding Officer, the boat is overloaded. There is no fine for this, unless the operator refuses the Boarding Officer's order. We certainly hope that you will abide by the rating, as overloading may lead to capsizing or swamping of the boat. "
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| Posted 7/12/12 11:07 AM |
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KristenRSF
LIF Toddler
Member since 5/10 487 total posts
Name:
Kris
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Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Ok, then let's forget about capacity. Where the fk were the life jackets for 27 people?
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| Posted 7/12/12 11:08 AM |
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Chatham-Chick
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by KristenRSF
Ok, then let's forget about capacity. Where the fk were the life jackets for 27 people?
I'm guessing NCPD will be trying to account for those today, among other things.
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| Posted 7/12/12 11:09 AM |
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jerseypanda
Life is good.
Member since 1/07 9164 total posts
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Amanda
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by KristenRSF
Ok, then let's forget about capacity. Where the fk were the life jackets for 27 people?
They are going to be checking the boat now that it has been pulled out of the water to see how many life jackets they had. I find it hard to believe that they had enough life jackets. If there were 10 children on board, 3 of them were in the cabin and they were not required to be wearing them in there. So the other 7 children should have had life jackets on when they were thrown into the water. I guarantee you the 17 adults were not wearing life jackets on the boat. I read that other boats in the area were throwing life jackets into the water for the people to use. Not sure how easy it will be to determine how many life jackets they actually had on the boat.
So what happens if they determine they didn't have enough life jackets? Is it just a fine? Are there charges that can be brought up for that? Unfortunately the life jacket conversation has nothing to do with the 3 children that lost their lives. They were in the cabin, didn't need to have one on and a life jacket would not have helped them.
Ugh, this story just makes me feel like I'm suffocating.
Message edited 7/12/2012 11:14:47 AM.
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| Posted 7/12/12 11:14 AM |
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tara73
carseat nerd
Member since 11/09 3669 total posts
Name:
Buttercup
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Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
There may be state/county laws regarding overloading the boat or safely operating the boat that this could fall under. I'm guessing that the 27 life jackets will come into play at some point, or possibly life jackets on all occupants under 12?
I just can't imagine the FBI getting involved unless they were looking for a criminal charge out of it. It is way too much money being spent to get the boat out of the water, and if it was for civil/insurance issues, a private boat salvage company would be handling it not the FBI.
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| Posted 7/12/12 11:15 AM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
there doesn't need to be a law about capacity in order to charge someone in this incident.
pure and total lack of common sense resulting in injury or death is crime enough
S 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.
A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with
criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.
Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.
I don't think they'd have too hard of a time proving that 27 people on a boat that size is beyond just plain negligence.
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| Posted 7/12/12 11:15 AM |
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nicrae
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Mommy
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by nrthshgrl
Posted by nicrae
Posted by nrthshgrl
Posted by nicrae
It was a horrible accident and jail time isn't going to change what happened. The Captain lost his 11 year old daughter. Don't you think he already paid the ultimate price for his mistake?
I agree, he paid the ultimate price & that he truly has been punished "enough".
But then I consider drunk drivers. People that thought they were "sober enough" to drive. Kill a family member in their car & take other people's lives (even a friend's) as a result of their negligence & I reconsidered what "enough" was.
It was a stupid, stupid, stupid mistake. Yes he paid the price. But if you don't punish the negligence in this case, if you don't have criminal penalties, then I wonder when does it become a criminal action? Do you say we won't punish you because your child was killed due to your negligence & that's punishment enough?
Also if the boat owner was aboard that boat, he is just as guilty as the captain IMO. If he lent his brother the boat & never saw it loaded, than I'd say his guilty is equivalent to the car owner whose friend borrows the car, gets drunk & plows into a carful of people.
As someone whose brother was killed by a drunk driver I still do not equate them. Someone who drinks and drives makes the conscious decision to get into a car with total disregard for the law.
There is no maximum capacity on a boat that size. It doesn't not say anywhere that on the boat you can only have 10 people. I come from a boating world and yes I do agree that there were way too many people on the boat. There is no question about that. However it wasn't a willful decision to ignore a regulation.
The boat owner is the captain. The guy driving the boat is not the captain. So should both be charged?
It was stupid to have that many people on the boat but have you never made a stupid decision? Had one too many people pile into your car when you were a teenager? Made a left in front of another car and just make it? Every day people make stupid choices and luckily never find out the consequences of those choices. Had those children not died, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
It was an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury. (definition of accident)
There is a maximum weight capacity on every boat. It's a manufacturer plaque - at least it's been on every motorboat I've been on. It may even be on our sailboat but it's definitely on boats with a motor.
There is not a plaque on my parent's sailboat nor my aunt's motorboat. Once you hit a certain footage there is no maximum capacity which is my point. Was it stupid? Yes. Did he break any laws? No. I think that this accident should be used to revamp boating laws and such but I truly don't think throwing the Captain or the driver in jail would serve any purpose at this point.
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| Posted 7/12/12 11:19 AM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by nicrae
There is not a plaque on my parent's sailboat nor my aunt's motorboat. Once you hit a certain footage there is no maximum capacity which is my point. Was it stupid? Yes. Did he break any laws? No. I think that this accident should be used to revamp boating laws and such but I truly don't think throwing the Captain or the driver in jail would serve any purpose at this point.
there are laws against utter and flagrant stupidity that causes death.
those children DROWNED terrified. cognizant of what was happening to them. it is the WORST WAY TO DIE. for a child I cannot even begin to imagine the fear. the lonliness.
I could not imagine my son (God and Heaven forbid it) dying that way, without me. calling for me.
the thought of it shakes me to my very core and everything in me when we are near water searches for ways to prevent it.
at the very least, an adult should have been in there with them. I cannot fathom the utter and complete stupidity. the selfishness.
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| Posted 7/12/12 11:23 AM |
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nicrae
He's here!
Member since 12/06 9289 total posts
Name:
Mommy
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by tarabelle99
Posted by nicrae
Posted by tarabelle99
Posted by nicrae
It was a horrible accident and jail time isn't going to change what happened. The Captain lost his 11 year old daughter. Don't you think he already paid the ultimate price for his mistake?
"Paid the ultimate price"? So the owner and captain deserve no further punishment, monetarily or criminally? If that is so, why do we still charge drunk drivers or others whose negligence has injured/killed people?
That's an emotional sentiment to think "they've suffered enough" but it's not logical. This is why there are different levels of punishment based on intent. Obviously, the harshest punishments are left for those who act with intent.
Lost my brother to a drunk driver. The money we got for that will never compensate for the loss of him. NEVER.
I don't think you can compare drunk driving to this. It isn't even in the same category.
If there are different levels of punishment based on intent then what is the punishment when you had no intent?
So should the parents that allowed their children on to the crowded boat also be punished? They made the decision to get on that boat with their children. What was their intent? To see fireworks?
That is what I don't understand. What would be the right punishment for the owner? Jail time? Lose his house? Lose his other child? What will truly make this better for the other parents who lost their children?
lWe also charge people who overload cars and a person dies. Who speed, text etc and a person dies they can be charged with negligence.
I'm sorry your brother died, but it IS comparable. A drunk driver, just like a captain who overloads his boat, a contractor who uses subpar materials, etc etc may not INTEND for injury/death to happen, but are they not culpable criminally and/or civilly when an accident does occur?
Yes, they are held responsible. Just losing someone isn't always punishment enough. Sometimes there are laws which are also broken by the negligent act, some are civil, some criminal. Just "losing someone" doesn't negate the laws, be them civil or criminal.
If I have a party on my deck and it separates from the house, I am responsible for the injuries sustained on my property. If it is found that the deck was overloaded and someone dies, even if it is my own child, then yes, I should be help responsible. If it is found that I broke a law under which I could face criminal prosecution, then yes, I should be charged.
So, ultimately, if there is a law that was broken, the boat's owner and captain SHOULD be charged under it crminially. If it was only civil, they should be sued. It is their RESPONSIBILITY to operate their boat in a SAFE manner, overloading it to the point where people had to be spilling over on it, is not SAFE.
Again my point is what law was broken if a boat of that size does not have a maximum capacity?
Common sense and the law do not always equate.
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| Posted 7/12/12 11:24 AM |
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tara73
carseat nerd
Member since 11/09 3669 total posts
Name:
Buttercup
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
So, ultimately, if there is a law that was broken, the boat's owner and captain SHOULD be charged under it crminially. If it was only civil, they should be sued. It is their RESPONSIBILITY to operate their boat in a SAFE manner, overloading it to the point where people had to be spilling over on it, is not SAFE.
Posted by nicrae
Again my point is what law was broken if a boat of that size does not have a maximum capacity?
Common sense and the law do not always equate.
You said the person who owned/drove the boat suffered enough by losing a loved one.
I said, if they can be charged with something criminally, they should, irregardless of their personal loss.
I am not a lawyer, cop or DA. I don't claim know every law of NY State, Nassau County or the USCG, so I have no idea IF a law was broken, BUT if there WAS a law broken, then I believe, YES they should be charged. There are laws, I'm sure, relating to boating and safety more than the USCG capacity laws.
As for their civil liabilty, that is more cut and dry, IMHO. They own the boat, it capsized. Even if it were mechanical failure there'd be some civil liability for that.
Which, if you read above, is pretty much what I said.
Message edited 7/12/2012 11:32:56 AM.
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| Posted 7/12/12 11:32 AM |
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nicrae
He's here!
Member since 12/06 9289 total posts
Name:
Mommy
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by nicrae
There is not a plaque on my parent's sailboat nor my aunt's motorboat. Once you hit a certain footage there is no maximum capacity which is my point. Was it stupid? Yes. Did he break any laws? No. I think that this accident should be used to revamp boating laws and such but I truly don't think throwing the Captain or the driver in jail would serve any purpose at this point.
at the very least, an adult should have been in there with them. I cannot fathom the utter and complete stupidity. the selfishness.
There was no reason for an adult to be in the cabin with them. They weren't babies. They were three kids playing cards. How is that stupidity or selfishness?
See this is my point. People (general people) have all these opinions on what should have happened. Again I am not arguing that the boat was overloaded. But all these other statements that make no sense. Why should an adult have been in the cabin with the three kids? Logically the cabin would be the safest place at night for kids to be. Nobody could have anticipating this horrific accident. I spent lots of time on my parents boat in the cabin as a kid. Never would have crossed their minds or mine that the boat would capsize and trap us.
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| Posted 7/12/12 11:32 AM |
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KristenRSF
LIF Toddler
Member since 5/10 487 total posts
Name:
Kris
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by nicrae
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by nicrae
There is not a plaque on my parent's sailboat nor my aunt's motorboat. Once you hit a certain footage there is no maximum capacity which is my point. Was it stupid? Yes. Did he break any laws? No. I think that this accident should be used to revamp boating laws and such but I truly don't think throwing the Captain or the driver in jail would serve any purpose at this point.
at the very least, an adult should have been in there with them. I cannot fathom the utter and complete stupidity. the selfishness.
There was no reason for an adult to be in the cabin with them. They weren't babies. They were three kids playing cards. How is that stupidity or selfishness?
See this is my point. People (general people) have all these opinions on what should have happened. Again I am not arguing that the boat was overloaded. But all these other statements that make no sense. Why should an adult have been in the cabin with the three kids? Logically the cabin would be the safest place at night for kids to be. Nobody could have anticipating this horrific accident. I spent lots of time on my parents boat in the cabin as a kid. Never would have crossed their minds or mine that the boat would capsize and trap us.
It never crossed their mind because there weren't 23 other people on a 34 foot boat.
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| Posted 7/12/12 11:34 AM |
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nicrae
He's here!
Member since 12/06 9289 total posts
Name:
Mommy
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by tarabelle99
So, ultimately, if there is a law that was broken, the boat's owner and captain SHOULD be charged under it crminially. If it was only civil, they should be sued. It is their RESPONSIBILITY to operate their boat in a SAFE manner, overloading it to the point where people had to be spilling over on it, is not SAFE.
Posted by nicrae
Again my point is what law was broken if a boat of that size does not have a maximum capacity?
Common sense and the law do not always equate.
You said the person who owned/drove the boat suffered enough by losing a loved one.
I said, if they can be charged with something criminally, they should, irregardless of their personal loss.
I am not a lawyer, cop or DA. I don't claim know every law of NY State, Nassau County or the USCG, so I have no idea IF a law was broken, BUT if there WAS a law broken, then I believe, YES they should be charged. There are laws, I'm sure, relating to boating and safety more than the USCG capacity laws.
As for their civil liabilty, that is more cut and dry, IMHO. They own the boat, it capsized. Even if it were mechanical failure there'd be some civil liability for that.
Which, if you read above, is pretty much what I said.
I understand what you are saying. I do. I guess my point is that everyone is calling for the captain to hang but what if no law was broken? That's my point. If he broke the law then yes I agree that he should be punished, however I have been writing with the mind set that there wasn't a law to break.
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| Posted 7/12/12 11:35 AM |
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nrthshgrl
It goes fast. Pay attention.
Member since 7/05 57538 total posts
Name:
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by nicrae
Again my point is what law was broken if a boat of that size does not have a maximum capacity?
Common sense and the law do not always equate.
I'm not sure you need a law on max capacity, to have a manslaughter charge or a negligent homicide charge.
It's bothering me that I can't find the penal code but this is on the NYS Penal Code webstie:
http://www.nycourts.gov/cji/2-PenalLaw/125/125-10.pdf
Under our law, a person is guilty of Criminally Negligent Homicide when, with criminal negligence, that person causes the
death of another person.
The term "criminal negligence" used in this definition has its
own special meaning in our law. I will now give you the meaning
of that term:
A person acts with CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE with respect to a death when that person engages in blameworthy conduct so serious
that it creates or contributes to a substantial and
unjustifiable risk that another person's death will occur,
and when he or she fails to perceive that risk,
and when the risk is of such nature and degree that failure
to perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the
standard of care that a reasonable person would observe in
the situation.
I'm wondering how does vehicular homicide tie in? After all a boat is considered a motor vehicle, no?
Message edited 7/12/2012 11:39:30 AM.
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| Posted 7/12/12 11:37 AM |
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tara73
carseat nerd
Member since 11/09 3669 total posts
Name:
Buttercup
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Re: Boat full of fireworks watchers capsizes near Long Island's Oyster Bay; 3 dead
Posted by nicrae
I understand what you are saying. I do. I guess my point is that everyone is calling for the captain to hang but what if no law was broken? That's my point. If he broke the law then yes I agree that he should be punished, however I have been writing with the mind set that there wasn't a law to break.
Well, I think every person who thought stuffing 27 people on that boat should be tarred and feathered, then publicly stoned but that is my personal opinion on them all. There were a bunch of really stupid people on that boat, no doubt, because anyone with one iota of common sense would have told you when you got on the boat it was a wee bit too crowded. A knowledgeable boat captain/owner should have had the scruples to manage the situation and prevent the overcrowding. The overcrowding was a direct contributor to the accident. It's a boat owner's responsibility to ensure the safety of his vessel and passengers, right?
As for criminal charges, I do think we may see them, based solely on the FBI's involvement. They''re looking for charges, and like Ophelia pointed out, criminally negligent homicide can exist separate of any other laws. The FBI isn't going to come in unless there is a chance that criminal charges are going to be filed. What those charges are, if any, we will have to wait and see.
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| Posted 7/12/12 11:42 AM |
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