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greenfreak
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Member since 9/06 11483 total posts
Name:
greenfreak
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by Mikismom
grabbing dogs by the scruff of their neck is painless, FTR 
That's correct. Wolves, puppies, kittens and other animals are picked up by their parents this way. There's a chemical released in the body when the scruff is stimulated that calms them so they don't cry and alert predators. I give Brinkley massages there and behind the ears when he's agitated. I don't think that's where he grabbed him though - I thought she said the back.
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Posted 12/12/08 1:35 PM  |
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Goobster
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:)
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by greenfreak
Posted by Mikismom
grabbing dogs by the scruff of their neck is painless, FTR
That's correct. Wolves, puppies, kittens and other animals are picked up by their parents this way. There's a chemical released in the body when the scruff is stimulated that calms them so they don't cry and alert predators. I give Brinkley massages there and behind the ears when he's agitated. I don't think that's where he grabbed him though - I thought she said the back.
My impression was it was his back , not scruff of neck.
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| Posted 12/12/08 3:56 PM |
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pinkandblue
Our family is complete, maybe
Member since 9/05 32436 total posts
Name:
Stephanie
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by Goobster
Posted by greenfreak
Posted by Mikismom
grabbing dogs by the scruff of their neck is painless, FTR
That's correct. Wolves, puppies, kittens and other animals are picked up by their parents this way. There's a chemical released in the body when the scruff is stimulated that calms them so they don't cry and alert predators. I give Brinkley massages there and behind the ears when he's agitated. I don't think that's where he grabbed him though - I thought she said the back.
My impression was it was his back , not scruff of neck.
the OP mentioned that she SOMETIMES hold them by the scruff of their neck and someone else was commenting that that may be abuse and I just wanted to let that poster know that the scruff of the neck does not hurt them, that's all
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| Posted 12/12/08 4:34 PM |
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sticklee
LIF Adult
Member since 8/06 2984 total posts
Name:
Stick
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by greenfreak
Dogs have a very short association time - 3 seconds is best. Ignoring them and otherwise punishing them at any time after that 3 second window is not only futile but detrimental. All he knows at this point is that you're angry and he doesn't understand why, so you are breeding mistrust in him right now. They don't hold grudges like we do.
i agree. the dog has no idea why you are not talking to him - you are wasting your energy AND you are probably fueling his attention-seeking behavior
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| Posted 12/12/08 5:13 PM |
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Diana712
RIP my beloved Brother Richard
Member since 5/07 6710 total posts
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Diana
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Re: One of my dog bit me
I thought dogs were only grabbed by the neck scruff when they are puppies.. I dont thing adult dogs carry eachother around by the neck? I dont think there weight can support it so infact I believe it is very painful for them.. I would leave that up to mommy dogs and pupps.. Can you try verbal commands?
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| Posted 12/12/08 5:24 PM |
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Goobster
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Member since 5/07 27557 total posts
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by dilb712
I thought dogs were only grabbed by the neck scruff when they are puppies.. I dont thing adult dogs carry eachother around by the neck? I dont think there weight can support it so infact I believe it is very painful for them.. I would leave that up to mommy dogs and pupps..
Good point, I agree. Only puppies can be held or carried this way, certainly not adult dogs, no matter what their size.
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| Posted 12/12/08 7:12 PM |
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pinkandblue
Our family is complete, maybe
Member since 9/05 32436 total posts
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Stephanie
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by Goobster
Only puppies can be held or carried this way, certainly not adult dogs, no matter what their size.
I am not so sure about that....sometimes, DH will pick sandy up by her scruff, she never even makes a peep. I tell DH not to cause I think it may hurt, it looks uncomfortable, but Sandy never even flinches 
she is about 25 lbs
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| Posted 12/12/08 7:49 PM |
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Diana712
RIP my beloved Brother Richard
Member since 5/07 6710 total posts
Name:
Diana
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by Mikismom
Posted by Goobster
Only puppies can be held or carried this way, certainly not adult dogs, no matter what their size.
I am not so sure about that....sometimes, DH will pick sandy up by her scruff, she never even makes a peep. I tell DH not to cause I think it may hurt, it looks uncomfortable, but Sandy never even flinches
she is about 25 lbs
I never heard of adult dogs carrying each other around like that.. I would find out if its okay before I handled an adult dog in that manner..
ETA: I actually read somewhere that the only reason a mother dog even carries her pup by the scruff is when they are too young to walk.. As an a dogs grows into an adult the back of his neck skin tightens and it is painful and actually harmful.. I would really stop doing that its is dangerous.. maybe its different with cats but I am not sure of that either..
Message edited 12/12/2008 8:26:44 PM.
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| Posted 12/12/08 8:18 PM |
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smdl
I love Gary too..on a plate!
Member since 5/06 32461 total posts
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by Mikismom
Posted by Goobster
Only puppies can be held or carried this way, certainly not adult dogs, no matter what their size.
I am not so sure about that....sometimes, DH will pick sandy up by her scruff, she never even makes a peep. I tell DH not to cause I think it may hurt, it looks uncomfortable, but Sandy never even flinches
she is about 25 lbs
I had German Shepperds. There is no way you can hold a big dog that way.
My dogs are 18 Lbs and 22 Lbs. They never flinch when we do it. Sometimes they get into places they don't belong in and I have to get them out so I reach out for them and get them out by holding them that way. It does not hurt them. It's not the most comfortable but it does not hurt. If we hold them that way, they just freeze just like when they were puppies.
How do you guys hold your dog if you need to hold them back i.e. someone at the door, etc.?
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| Posted 12/12/08 9:30 PM |
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Goobster
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by smdl
How do you guys hold your dog if you need to hold them back i.e. someone at the door, etc.?
I put my arm in front of their chest. I never pull them by the scruff of their neck, ever.
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| Posted 12/12/08 11:21 PM |
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Diana712
RIP my beloved Brother Richard
Member since 5/07 6710 total posts
Name:
Diana
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Re: One of my dog bit me
I use a voice command stay or stop.. She stops dead in her tracks.. I will sometimes hold my leg out when I answer the door and she knows not to go near it.. She is very trained that way.. But I would think to lead by the collar if the dog was bigger and you cant get them to understand the voice command..
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| Posted 12/12/08 11:38 PM |
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sleepie76
enjoying every minute
Member since 12/07 3881 total posts
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by smdl
How do you guys hold your dog if you need to hold them back i.e. someone at the door, etc.?
voice commands (stop, stay, no)
by the collar if needed.
I can't say I ever grabbed my dog by his skin/body.
honestly, I think it was a dog's instinct reaction to being surprise grabbed by the skin hard enough to yelp.
I think you should work away from pulling your dog by the skin, work more on voice commands. You shouldn't have to hurt him to make him stop.
You should be able to control him with words.
My husband loves our dog more than anything, but he tends to be more physical than verbal(i.e. pushes him out of the way. pulls him back.) I tell him all the time, " use words, the dog doesn't understand what you want. He just just knows you are pushing him."
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| Posted 12/13/08 10:01 AM |
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smdl
I love Gary too..on a plate!
Member since 5/06 32461 total posts
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me
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by sleepie76
Posted by smdl
How do you guys hold your dog if you need to hold them back i.e. someone at the door, etc.?
voice commands (stop, stay, no)
by the collar if needed.
I can't say I ever grabbed my dog by his skin/body.
honestly, I think it was a dog's instinct reaction to being surprise grabbed by the skin hard enough to yelp.
I think you should work away from pulling your dog by the skin, work more on voice commands. You shouldn't have to hurt him to make him stop.
You should be able to control him with words.
My husband loves our dog more than anything, but he tends to be more physical than verbal(i.e. pushes him out of the way. pulls him back.) I tell him all the time, " use words, the dog doesn't understand what you want. He just just knows you are pushing him."
Well, I would think a collar would chock them by collapsing their larynx versus holding them by the skin on the back of their neck which does not do that. A collar will hurt your dog.
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| Posted 12/13/08 4:58 PM |
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mrswask
Pookie Love
Member since 5/05 20229 total posts
Name:
Michal
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by Mikismom
honestly, I would not blame him, you grabbed him and his instincts took over.....animals are animals. 
I agree.
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| Posted 12/13/08 6:16 PM |
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Diana712
RIP my beloved Brother Richard
Member since 5/07 6710 total posts
Name:
Diana
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by smdl
Posted by sleepie76
Posted by smdl
How do you guys hold your dog if you need to hold them back i.e. someone at the door, etc.?
voice commands (stop, stay, no)
by the collar if needed.
I can't say I ever grabbed my dog by his skin/body.
honestly, I think it was a dog's instinct reaction to being surprise grabbed by the skin hard enough to yelp.
I think you should work away from pulling your dog by the skin, work more on voice commands. You shouldn't have to hurt him to make him stop.
You should be able to control him with words.
My husband loves our dog more than anything, but he tends to be more physical than verbal(i.e. pushes him out of the way. pulls him back.) I tell him all the time, " use words, the dog doesn't understand what you want. He just just knows you are pushing him."
Well, I would think a collar would chock them by collapsing their larynx versus holding them by the skin on the back of their neck which does not do that. A collar will hurt your dog.
Not at all would that choke your dog.. Dogs walk on leashes and pull all the time.. And its not your hand being agressive on his skin.. Agression breeds agression.. You have to be calm yet assertive.. i am no expert but i do read many many books, and watch all kinds of programs about dog behavior..
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| Posted 12/13/08 7:02 PM |
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greenfreak
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Member since 9/06 11483 total posts
Name:
greenfreak
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by smdl
Well, I would think a collar would chock them by collapsing their larynx versus holding them by the skin on the back of their neck which does not do that. A collar will hurt your dog.
I'll ask again, since you missed or ignored my post on the first page - are you basing these assumptions on any advice from professionals? You've made a few comments (including this one) that are listed as common misconceptions by behaviorists that I've researched.
If you're basing everything on what you come up with yourself, isn't it possible that you're wrong? And that you should educate yourself for the benefit of your animals and your children? I'm no expert by any means, but I at least take the time to read about methods and research from different behaviorists to educate myself about what my dog is really doing and thinking.
I'm not trying to bash you at all. I don't think your dog is "bad" or horribly behaved or that you did a bad job of raising him. But I do think much of what you believe is misguided and can make an isolated nip at your hand become a more common occurance depending on how you handle this.
This is the time to do it right - to find out exactly how to handle this. Not guess at it based on your own human instincts. He's a dog descended from a wolf, our human instincts just don't apply. You're attributing human traits to him that don't exist. I think you're confusing his need to please you to some kind of penance for what he did. They just don't do that, or hold grudges especially not after days have gone by.
I think The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell is excellent for getting into their heads and understanding how they think and then how to respond to them and problems that crop up. An hour or two with good dog trainer would tell you the same things though and would take a lot less time than reading a book.
Unless you address me about my posts, I'll just wish you luck and shut up now.
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| Posted 12/13/08 7:39 PM |
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smdl
I love Gary too..on a plate!
Member since 5/06 32461 total posts
Name:
me
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Re: One of my dog bit me
nm. Misunderstood PP comment.
Message edited 12/14/2008 9:48:37 AM.
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| Posted 12/13/08 9:52 PM |
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leese
Sarge!
Member since 5/05 1965 total posts
Name:
Leese
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Unless you address me about my posts, I'll just wish you luck and shut up now.
Wow. Why did I deserve to be told to shut up? Where did that come from? I read your post. I was not sure what to respond. So, because I did not acknowledge your post I need to shut up. This is a bit ridicuous, isn't it?
FYI, she said that she would shut up now because it didn't seem you were responding to her.
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| Posted 12/14/08 12:13 AM |
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smdl
I love Gary too..on a plate!
Member since 5/06 32461 total posts
Name:
me
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by leese
Unless you address me about my posts, I'll just wish you luck and shut up now.
Wow. Why did I deserve to be told to shut up? Where did that come from? I read your post. I was not sure what to respond. So, because I did not acknowledge your post I need to shut up. This is a bit ridicuous, isn't it?
FYI, she said that she would shut up now because it didn't seem you were responding to her.
I understood she told "me" to shut up.
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| Posted 12/14/08 9:38 AM |
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greenfreak
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Member since 9/06 11483 total posts
Name:
greenfreak
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by leese
FYI, she said that she would shut up now because it didn't seem you were responding to her.
Thank you leese, that's what I was saying.
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| Posted 12/14/08 10:48 AM |
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sleepie76
enjoying every minute
Member since 12/07 3881 total posts
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by smdl
Posted by sleepie76
Posted by smdl
How do you guys hold your dog if you need to hold them back i.e. someone at the door, etc.?
voice commands (stop, stay, no)
by the collar if needed.
I can't say I ever grabbed my dog by his skin/body.
honestly, I think it was a dog's instinct reaction to being surprise grabbed by the skin hard enough to yelp.
I think you should work away from pulling your dog by the skin, work more on voice commands. You shouldn't have to hurt him to make him stop.
You should be able to control him with words.
My husband loves our dog more than anything, but he tends to be more physical than verbal(i.e. pushes him out of the way. pulls him back.) I tell him all the time, " use words, the dog doesn't understand what you want. He just just knows you are pushing him."
Well, I would think a collar would chock them by collapsing their larynx versus holding them by the skin on the back of their neck which does not do that. A collar will hurt your dog.
I'm sorry but this made me laugh.
how hard do you think I'm pulling on the collar to restrain him ?
I'm holding it, not choking him.
He listens to me, knows commands. Holding the collar is just a reminder or additional restraint in case I think his instincts/desire are strong at that moment ( i.e. see a dog, squirrel and want to chase it/see it).
If you have to restrain your dog that strongly or always resort to physical, I think this comes back to a training issue.
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| Posted 12/14/08 3:19 PM |
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leese
Sarge!
Member since 5/05 1965 total posts
Name:
Leese
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by greenfreak
Posted by leese
FYI, she said that she would shut up now because it didn't seem you were responding to her.
Thank you leese, that's what I was saying.
Anytime, it made perfect sense to me.
To the OP though, I will say that there have been a few times that my dog has "snapped" and it usually IS (in the end) my fault. For example, bulldogs are known for sensitive skin. I was brushing him once, and I must have been to tough and he winced, cried and snapped back. He was not going to bite me, but he is an animal...and well, I can't tell you I wouldn't lash out if I was hurt.
I don't know, none of us were there, but if you come on a message board and you share your story, you've got to be ready for people to share their experiences and advice.
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| Posted 12/14/08 3:48 PM |
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robynfs
12/6/10!!
Member since 9/05 4947 total posts
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Re: One of my dog bit me
I'm sorry you had this experience with your dog.
My only comment is on you ignoring him the days post incident. From my experience with dogs and what I have read you are suppposed to discipline the dog immediately after the incident. Anytime there after, is a waste of time since the dog does not have the ability to think to itself, "oh she is ignoring me because I was bad and bit her yesterday." They don't reference your behavior back to the "crime".
I understand your fear of biting especially with young children around, however I don't think there is anyway you can guarantee your dog won't try to protect itself if it is hurt, startled or scared.
Good Luck
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| Posted 12/14/08 4:01 PM |
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Goobster
:)
Member since 5/07 27557 total posts
Name:
:)
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by robynfs
I'm sorry you had this experience with your dog.
My only comment is on you ignoring him the days post incident. From my experience with dogs and what I have read you are suppposed to discipline the dog immediately after the incident. Anytime there after, is a waste of time since the dog does not have the ability to think to itself, "oh she is ignoring me because I was bad and bit her yesterday." They don't reference your behavior back to the "crime".
I understand your fear of biting especially with young children around, however I don't think there is anyway you can guarantee your dog won't try to protect itself if it is hurt, startled or scared.
Good Luck
Excellent post. I wish I could have said it this perfectly myself.
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| Posted 12/14/08 6:25 PM |
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MsMBV
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Member since 5/05 28602 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: One of my dog bit me
Posted by sleepie76
I'm sorry but this made me laugh.
how hard do you think I'm pulling on the collar to restrain him ?
I'm holding it, not choking him.
He listens to me, knows commands. Holding the collar is just a reminder or additional restraint in case I think his instincts/desire are strong at that moment ( i.e. see a dog, squirrel and want to chase it/see it).
If you have to restrain your dog that strongly or always resort to physical, I think this comes back to a training issue.
I have stayed out of this, but there are certain breeds of dogs that should never wear a collar. Some breeds are VERY susceptible to collapsed tracheas; mostly small dogs. This is from a Vet, who told me about it and the various breeds that can be affected after I rescued my mini-pin. He realised that he was improperly collared at one point and suffered from a collapsed trachea. It does not take much pressure, and in most cases the owner/handler does not even realise that the dog is injuring itself. It does not have to be a pull or a "choking" motion that does it either. Misplacing the wrong type of caller can do it. So the OP is not wrong when she made the original statement about collars being dangerous.
There are alternatives, arguably the most humane of which is a puppia harness. They are not for all dogs though, as dogs with longer fur/hair can get tangled. So if you have a dog that is sensitive to collar use, even at its most conservative, and has longer fur or hair, what do you do?
Also, there are breeds that are perfectly fine being picked up or held by their scruff past their puppy phase. Again, it depends on the breed.
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| Posted 12/16/08 12:45 AM |
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