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What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
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Sheena
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Member since 3/07 264 total posts
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queen of the jungle
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Posted by photoshopbabe
woah...calm urself. for realz. i'm not saying it more important, but one would think and IT professional would make more than a teacher. he does more than just "fix" computers, btw.
im not saying teaching is an easy job. i know its not. a lot of my friends are teachers. but to see some of the salaries, its really a LOT of money.
Oh, so there's more to your husband's IT job than just "fixing" computers? Well, there's a lot more to a teaching job than just working
8--3.
But, I'm usually in my school building at 7:00 am, and I'm out by 3, so I've worked my 8:00 hour day.
Here's a thought: I had to go to the bathroom the other day, really badly. I had to wait for someone to come watch the kids before I could leave. I called my colleague looking for her para, who was in another class, so I called the other class looking for her to see if she could come up a flight to watch my kids. Do you ( general you) do that at your job? Oh, and one time before that I called the office for someone to watch my kids and was told "there's no one here to cover you." So, I begged--BEGGED--for someone to come, anyone, because the last thing I want to remembered for by my students was the teacher who peed in her pants.
Message edited 11/13/2010 8:39:52 PM.
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Posted 11/13/10 8:38 PM  |
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Posted by bunny1099
I get so sick of hearing we pay your salaries. And you know what, when we pay for various services (whatever companies you work for) we pay your salaries, so why can't we see yours???
Salaries are getting paid through all of our dollars so to hear people specifically saying they pay OUR salaries as if nobody paid theirs is garbage!
As some PPs said before, yes there are some bad teachers or lazy ones, esp who you may know or remember vividly and disagree with how much they make, but for those of us who work or butts off, in school, out of school, at home, during the summer and holidays, we do work hard and do not deserve to be put down for what we make. I can't speak for all professions, but I can tell you, a teacher's job does not end when the bell rings or they walk out that door. Many other professions deserve what they make, and in no way, am I saying they don't deserve their salaries, or teachers work harder than anyone else. It's just that other professions are not having their salaries broadcasted and attacked by the public.
Let the  begin!
There are bad:
Teachers
Doctors
Surgeons
Lawyers
Politicians
The list goes on and on....
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| Posted 11/13/10 8:43 PM |
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MrsSchwags
Soccer Baseball Lax Mom
Member since 10/05 11240 total posts
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Jennifer
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Posted by ChrisDee
Posted by TheDivineMrsM
Some of those Superintendent salaries are ridiculous! Yes, their job is stressful and many (but not all) have doctorates. But... so do college professors, and they're not making anywhere near that!
And there are about 130 SD's on LI! No one on LI would ever agree to this, but consolidating districts would be much more cost efficient. We'd have the same # of kids, so the # of teachers would be the same. But do we really need 130 Sup's making 250K+ a year of our tax dollars?
I couldn't agree more. We are one of the few states that have all the seperate districts. It is totally rediculous!!!
I am all for this. I have worked on Long Island and out of state (FL and SC).
I really don't think we need so many sep. districts. Consolidating to county or even area schools would be better for our taxes.
I know Suffolk county is big, so even if we did a Western Suffolk, Central Suffolk and Eastern Suffolk school district, just think of how many high paid people wouldn't exist.
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| Posted 11/13/10 8:44 PM |
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CrankyPants
I'm cranky
Member since 7/06 18178 total posts
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Mama Cranky
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
I don't think they shoud publish salary information by name.
The public can know they are paying XX to teach XXx but to be able to look up little jonny's Math teacher specifically seems to wrong.
As for those who begrudge teacher salaries-every single one of us had a chance to become a teacher and knew the perks and still chose otherwise sooooo-too bad for us.
I'm not a teacher-I'm in finance.
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| Posted 11/13/10 8:44 PM |
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ChrisDee
My Girls
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Lets just call a spade a spade here. Is teaching an "EASY" job? No, not at all! BUT, it is a pretty sweet deal, between the hours and the insane amout of time off in relation to the pay. C'mon, what other job can you get and make that kind of money for that many work days per year. Lots and lots of jobs require a masters and require you to continue your education(and pay for it yourself).
Everyone made their choice in life and good for you if you chose to be a teacher. It was a smart choice. BUT, please be honest and call a spade a spade, it is a GREAT job with a GREAT salary and amazing hours/time off. Nobody can bash you for being smart and choosing that road. They can only regret not choosing it for themselves.
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| Posted 11/13/10 8:48 PM |
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Posted by ChrisDee
Lets just call a spade a spade here. Is teaching an "EASY" job? No, not at all! BUT, it is a pretty sweet deal, between the hours and the insane amout of time off in relation to the pay. C'mon, what other job can you get and make that kind of money for that many work days per year. Lots and lots of jobs require a masters and require you to continue your education(and pay for it yourself).
Everyone made their choice in life and good for you if you chose to be a teacher. It was a smart choice. BUT, please be honest and call a spade a spade, it is a GREAT job with a GREAT salary and amazing hours/time off. Nobody can bash you for being smart and choosing that road. They can only regret not choosing it for themselves.
I work in a different field of education - special ed - but these teachers work their ASSSES off after school hours to make materials, develop individualized curriculum, visual strategies, etc. And if they are teachers in autism programs, they have data to review, programs to write, log notes, etc... And a lot work summers too since the students get extended academic years to prevent regression.
Not to mention they get beaten, bitten, scratched, etc.
One of the best middle school teachers I work with has had to clean menstrual blood, feces, urine, etc.
Not always such a "sweet deal"  And IMO, worth every friggen penny!
ETA...
As a consultant, teaching teachers how to address challenging behavior, develop their curricula, train aides, etc, I do not make as much as most teachers. They would be shocked to hear that but I will be honest - some days I feel my job is so much easier than theirs - and I work all yr round and put in 10-14 hr days!
Message edited 11/13/2010 8:57:00 PM.
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| Posted 11/13/10 8:54 PM |
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bunny1099
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Member since 7/10 366 total posts
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P
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Posted by ChrisDee
Have you met any Suffolk Police officers? What about MTA workers? Cause they catch heat too. It is just part of the territory when you are a public employee.
As a matter of fact, I have. My father is in the MTA and yes, he catches heat and I think it's disgusting all around.
I just think it's easy for others to bash what we make when their salaries are not made public. It's like hiding your private info behind a curtain while going on and on about bashing others.
As for calling a spade a spade. Absolutely, I totally agree that teachers have a great amount of time off. But it becomes a little much when you hear people saying, oh, you get so much time off, you're so lucky, and you get paid to be off! I think it was put perfectly that everyone had a choice on what career they wanted to take and some chose teaching while others didn't. Nobody is saying one is better than the other, but nobody is asking to be attacked about their choices either and feeling like they have to defend themselves because there is so much negativity out there! Whatever you chose is what you chose and whatever you make is what you make. If you don't like it, then switch!!!
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| Posted 11/13/10 9:01 PM |
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nov04libride
big brother <3
Member since 5/05 14672 total posts
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
I definitely think it's too high. President Obama makes $400,000 a year.
So some of these Sups. are making more than the PRESIDENT OF THE U.S.!!!!!!!!!! Seriously?! My uncle's a Sup., and my Dad's a college President. Guess who makes more? The Sup.! Is it fair? I don't think so.
As for teachers, they need schooling, blah, blah, blah, but should they make that much more than university faculty members? I don't think so.
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| Posted 11/13/10 9:09 PM |
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nel
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Member since 5/06 1173 total posts
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Posted by nrthshgrl
I think if you opt for a job working for the public, your salary information should be public. For me it's what truly is checks & balances & it's in the public's interest to be able to see how much someone is making. If you want that privacy, work for the private sector. We do pay their salaries & I want to be able to see if I feel a public agency has an abuse (not saying that's in the case of the teachers).
As for the high salaries of superintendents, I do think newspapers have a tendency to try to find "scandal" where there is none. I see nothing scandalous about someone making over six figures & living on LI. They printed the LIRR salaries like it was a big expose - meanwhile in my opinion the only thing they were doing wrong was mismanaging overtime rather than hiring additional workers. But a guy who works 20 hours of OT a week, go ahead pay him the six figures he deserves.
I think teachers need to be educated on a level that not many sectors do. They have to teach, while wearing a million different hats - playing pseudo-social worker, pseudo-psychologist, pseudo-parent. They manage to do this for 18-25 students. Pay them six figures in my opinion...
As for superintendents, how much do they deserve? They are essentially the CEO of several mini-corporations. I think they deserve what they earn.
Of course there are always the teachers/supers that are slackers, that are bad teachers, poor managers, that are just going through the motions - but in all honesty you remember the bad ones & the great ones more than the good ones, which there are plenty.
This is my favorite response so far. Thank you.
So many others have already said what teachers do to deserve their salaries, and the reason we feel the need to list what we do (which, yes, is what many others do, too) is because of how often we're attacked for it. But it's not just about our salaries. It comes down to criticizing what we're doing to earn these salaries, and that's where people have NO idea what they're talking about unless they've done it.
Everyone has gone to school, so everyone feels qualified to comment on what teachers do, but teachers who have never worked outside of education shouldn't criticize someone else's job because THEY'VE NEVER HAD IT. And unless you've been a teacher, then you don't GET it. Period.
I had a high school senior tell me the other day that her mom was out of town for the week -- not a neglectful parent, just one who was going on vacation. Girl and sisters were staying with grandparents. Not a problem at all... except this is a kid who worries a lot, and she's in the college process right now and very stressed out. And without a second thought, I said, "Ok, so we have to be your mommy this week?" And she just looked so relieved as she nodded. Because in addition to the planning, the teaching, the grading and all the paperwork... we do that, too. For kids we care about. So to hear attacks like these is bound to get us defensive.
I put my whole heart into this job, so to hear people tell me what a "sweet deal" I have because of the hours or the summers off just shows me that they really don't get it. Yes, it's true. I do get those things. But I chose this job, so I earn them.
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| Posted 11/13/10 9:15 PM |
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nov04libride
big brother <3
Member since 5/05 14672 total posts
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Posted by nel
This is my favorite response so far. Thank you.
So many others have already said what teachers do to deserve their salaries, and the reason we feel the need to list what we do (which, yes, is what many others do, too) is because of how often we're attacked for it. But it's not just about our salaries. It comes down to criticizing what we're doing to earn these salaries, and that's where people have NO idea what they're talking about unless they've done it.
Everyone has gone to school, so everyone feels qualified to comment on what teachers do, but teachers who have never worked outside of education shouldn't criticize someone else's job because THEY'VE NEVER HAD IT. And unless you've been a teacher, then you don't GET it. Period.
I had a high school senior tell me the other day that her mom was out of town for the week -- not a neglectful parent, just one who was going on vacation. Girl and sisters were staying with grandparents. Not a problem at all... except this is a kid who worries a lot, and she's in the college process right now and very stressed out. And without a second thought, I said, "Ok, so we have to be your mommy this week?" And she just looked so relieved as she nodded. Because in addition to the planning, the teaching, the grading and all the paperwork... we do that, too. For kids we care about. So to hear attacks like these is bound to get us defensive.
I put my whole heart into this job, so to hear people tell me what a "sweet deal" I have because of the hours or the summers off just shows me that they really don't get it. Yes, it's true. I do get those things. But I chose this job, so I earn them.
I hear what you're saying, but I think seeing these figures makes the many NYC teachers/upstate teachers/parochial school teachers, who do the same things, see the inequities between LI and the rest of the world.
There's your counterpart in NYC making possibly half (or less?) of what you take home, while playing mommy, grading papers, etc., and to me, that's what's not fair.
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| Posted 11/13/10 9:19 PM |
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nel
LIF Adult
Member since 5/06 1173 total posts
Name:
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Posted by nov04libride
Posted by nel
This is my favorite response so far. Thank you.
So many others have already said what teachers do to deserve their salaries, and the reason we feel the need to list what we do (which, yes, is what many others do, too) is because of how often we're attacked for it. But it's not just about our salaries. It comes down to criticizing what we're doing to earn these salaries, and that's where people have NO idea what they're talking about unless they've done it.
Everyone has gone to school, so everyone feels qualified to comment on what teachers do, but teachers who have never worked outside of education shouldn't criticize someone else's job because THEY'VE NEVER HAD IT. And unless you've been a teacher, then you don't GET it. Period.
I had a high school senior tell me the other day that her mom was out of town for the week -- not a neglectful parent, just one who was going on vacation. Girl and sisters were staying with grandparents. Not a problem at all... except this is a kid who worries a lot, and she's in the college process right now and very stressed out. And without a second thought, I said, "Ok, so we have to be your mommy this week?" And she just looked so relieved as she nodded. Because in addition to the planning, the teaching, the grading and all the paperwork... we do that, too. For kids we care about. So to hear attacks like these is bound to get us defensive.
I put my whole heart into this job, so to hear people tell me what a "sweet deal" I have because of the hours or the summers off just shows me that they really don't get it. Yes, it's true. I do get those things. But I chose this job, so I earn them.
I hear what you're saying, but I think seeing these figures makes the many NYC teachers/upstate teachers/parochial school teachers, who do the same things, see the inequities between LI and the rest of the world.
There's your counterpart in NYC making possibly half (or less?) of what you take home, while playing mommy, grading papers, etc., and to me, that's what's not fair.
My mother was in the NYC public school system for 35 years. I agree that it is INCREDIBLY unfair that ANY teachers don't make a fair and competitive salary. I would never argue with that. That was far from my point; sorry if I got confusing in the heat of my typing. 
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| Posted 11/13/10 9:20 PM |
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ChrisDee
My Girls
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Christine
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Posted by bunny1099
Posted by ChrisDee
Have you met any Suffolk Police officers? What about MTA workers? Cause they catch heat too. It is just part of the territory when you are a public employee.
As a matter of fact, I have. My father is in the MTA and yes, he catches heat and I think it's disgusting all around.
I just think it's easy for others to bash what we make when their salaries are not made public. It's like hiding your private info behind a curtain while going on and on about bashing others.
As for calling a spade a spade. Absolutely, I totally agree that teachers have a great amount of time off. But it becomes a little much when you hear people saying, oh, you get so much time off, you're so lucky, and you get paid to be off! I think it was put perfectly that everyone had a choice on what career they wanted to take and some chose teaching while others didn't. Nobody is saying one is better than the other, but nobody is asking to be attacked about their choices either and feeling like they have to defend themselves because there is so much negativity out there! Whatever you chose is what you chose and whatever you make is what you make. If you don't like it, then switch!!!
Who is hiding? Are there people out there that refuse to tell you there salaries? I am a hairdresser that works 3 days a week(I specialize in hair replacement). I make great money. Which I think is a pretty "sweat deal". I make my own schedule and get to be super involved in my kids lifes. I deal with people being rude to me, dirty smelly people, people being late and making me run late. I have been bitten and hit by children. I have been spit on too. I run my azz off and sometimes 10-12hrs a day. However, anyway you slice it, I have it pretty good for the hours that I work and the money that I make.
BTW: Was it a surprise to you that your salary was public or did you know going into teaching that it would be? just curious?
Message edited 11/15/2010 2:50:56 PM.
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| Posted 11/13/10 9:26 PM |
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CookiePuss
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Posted by MrsSchwags
Posted by ChrisDee
Posted by TheDivineMrsM
Some of those Superintendent salaries are ridiculous! Yes, their job is stressful and many (but not all) have doctorates. But... so do college professors, and they're not making anywhere near that!
And there are about 130 SD's on LI! No one on LI would ever agree to this, but consolidating districts would be much more cost efficient. We'd have the same # of kids, so the # of teachers would be the same. But do we really need 130 Sup's making 250K+ a year of our tax dollars?
I couldn't agree more. We are one of the few states that have all the seperate districts. It is totally rediculous!!!
I am all for this. I have worked on Long Island and out of state (FL and SC).
I really don't think we need so many sep. districts. Consolidating to county or even area schools would be better for our taxes.
I know Suffolk county is big, so even if we did a Western Suffolk, Central Suffolk and Eastern Suffolk school district, just think of how many high paid people wouldn't exist.
I agree wholeheartedly. LI has WAY TOO MANY SCHOOL DISTRICTS WITH WAY TO MANY SUPERINTENDENTS. There is no need for that many districts but they aren't going to cut off their noses despite their faces. No one is going to phase out their jobs. In addition, how many districts have multiple Asst. Supers.????
I don't have a problem with the salary base but I do have a problem with the amount of districts and in that case...the salary base would be based on a fair salary for a the job.
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| Posted 11/13/10 9:35 PM |
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bunny1099
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
I absolutely knew it would be public, but I love teaching and it is what I enjoy doing so that wouldn't sway me out of the choice. And I totally applaud what you have to do and deal with at your job. I truly do. I can honestly say, as a teacher, I have never been bitten, thank goodness!
I also do not ask people their salaries, but being with HS children constantly, on field trips, in class, at conventions, etc. I have seen them ask adults their salary and they have refused to answer. Instead they give a ridiculously large range of what people in their profession make.
But with your salary and hours, if that was made public, in the news, on tv, in the community you live in, don't you think people might start questioning it as they do with teachers??? By all means, make what you make and be proud of it, but if others did attack you for it, wouldn't you become defensive??
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| Posted 11/13/10 9:36 PM |
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lilqtny
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Posted by MrsSchwags
Those who can TEACH!! Those who can't complain about teachers.
Love this line!
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| Posted 11/13/10 9:41 PM |
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Jan1975
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Member since 8/09 3846 total posts
Name:
Sarah
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Posted by photoshopbabe
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!
I cannot believe some of these teachers salaries!!!!!! a teacher! makes more than my husband who is in IT!, AND he works in the city!
maybe i sould become a li teacher! lol
What most people don't realize is that it takes about 20years for a teacher to make a very high salary, 20 YEARS IS A LONG TIME. The starting salary for a teacher isn't that high. BEsides the fact that teachers have masters degrees PLUS more schooling. Both my DH and I are teachers and we cannot even afford a house at the moment, maybe in 20years we can.
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| Posted 11/13/10 9:49 PM |
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mamasita27
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MB
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Posted by TAFKAD
Posted by photoshopbabe
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!
I cannot believe some of these teachers salaries!!!!!! a teacher! makes more than my husband who is in IT!, AND he works in the city!
maybe i sould become a li teacher! lol
fyi, not starting drama  but teachers pay a LOT of money getting their bach degrees, then mandatory mast. degrees, then any other schooling in order to earn these salaries. we spend a lot of time working and going to school at the same time and continue professional development yearly. teaching is lot more work than people think it is, and has certainly become a lot more rigid in the past few years. i love it and wouldnt trade it, but i definitely earn my pay
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| Posted 11/13/10 9:54 PM |
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Dollface
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Dollface
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Posted by neenie
Posted by Dollface
Just curious, what do people think the salaries of LI Superintendents/teachers/admins or teachers in general SHOULD be earning? If these salaries are too high, what should they be lowered to? What should the "pyramid" of earnings be in our society? Who should make more than whom? Not being snarky, just genuinely curious what people think/feel.
I think $650K seems perfectly reasonable to me! I'm sad that my superintendent doesn't make that- maybe i'll write a letter asking them to raise my taxes so that he/she could 
I really was just curious what the complainers thought a fair salary for a superintendent should be. I mean, I'm reading a lot of whining and "I don't earn that much, so blah, blah, blah..." I was really interested in a number. Didn't expect such a snarky response as my intention was not to be snarky.
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| Posted 11/13/10 9:55 PM |
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nov04libride
big brother <3
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Me
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Posted by SweetApril
Posted by photoshopbabe
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!
I cannot believe some of these teachers salaries!!!!!! a teacher! makes more than my husband who is in IT!, AND he works in the city!
maybe i sould become a li teacher! lol
What most people don't realize is that it takes about 20years for a teacher to make a very high salary, 20 YEARS IS A LONG TIME. The starting salary for a teacher isn't that high. BEsides the fact that teachers have masters degrees PLUS more schooling. Both my DH and I are teachers and we cannot even afford a house at the moment, maybe in 20years we can.
I see what you're saying, but I've been working in my field (education, btw) for 11 years, and from looking at the salaries on that site, if I was a public school teacher working 11 years in my district or the surrounding well-paid districts (I work in higher ed; lesser paid), I would be making $90,000. If my DH had the same position, we would have a combined $180,000, and I don't know why we wouldn't be able to afford a home making nearly $200,000. I'm not bitter; I hate most children and pushy parents and chose to work in a college and finish a doctorate and teach college students, but I don't know how anyone could say that you couldn't afford a home with two LI teacher salaries. DH and I bought one on less.
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| Posted 11/13/10 9:59 PM |
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nov04libride
big brother <3
Member since 5/05 14672 total posts
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Me
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
I think $250,000 is more than sufficient.
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| Posted 11/13/10 10:00 PM |
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Salason
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Posted by CrankyPants
I don't think they shoud publish salary information by name.
The public can know they are paying XX to teach XXx but to be able to look up little jonny's Math teacher specifically seems to wrong.
As for those who begrudge teacher salaries-every single one of us had a chance to become a teacher and knew the perks and still chose otherwise sooooo-too bad for us.
I'm not a teacher-I'm in finance.
ITA (and I'm also in finance ). I think they could say Teacher X with X credentials/E yrs of experience makes X. I think the info should be public but not by teacher name. It's an invasion of their privacy IMO.
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| Posted 11/13/10 10:01 PM |
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ChrisDee
My Girls
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Christine
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Probably less than the President of the United States of America Just Sayin'
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| Posted 11/13/10 10:02 PM |
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ChrisDee
My Girls
Member since 11/06 9543 total posts
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Christine
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Posted by SweetApril
Posted by photoshopbabe
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!
I cannot believe some of these teachers salaries!!!!!! a teacher! makes more than my husband who is in IT!, AND he works in the city!
maybe i sould become a li teacher! lol
What most people don't realize is that it takes about 20years for a teacher to make a very high salary, 20 YEARS IS A LONG TIME. The starting salary for a teacher isn't that high. BEsides the fact that teachers have masters degrees PLUS more schooling. Both my DH and I are teachers and we cannot even afford a house at the moment, maybe in 20years we can.
My DD's 1st grade teacher is making $76,000+ She is in her 5th year of teaching.
Message edited 11/13/2010 10:17:30 PM.
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| Posted 11/13/10 10:06 PM |
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PrincessP
Big sister!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
Posted by ChrisDee
Probably less than the President of the United States of America Just Sayin'
Do ya think
For the person that said 650k is fair...
Sure I agree. Lets fire all the teachers and raise the superintendants to 800k. Why not? With all the layoffs it seems a little odd to me that a superintendant is making more then the president.
*also, to the teachers writing on this thread...arent you disgusted that a superintendant would be making 650K? Especially when your colleagues are out of work? or is it only about publicizing this info?
Message edited 11/13/2010 10:10:20 PM.
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| Posted 11/13/10 10:06 PM |
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CookiePuss
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Re: What would you say is the "average" salary a school superintendant makes on LI
I actually don't think that the majority of the salaries are out of line. I think the sheer number of school districts is ridiculous. Our schools are good but Yale, Harvard, Brown, Duke, and Columbia aren't overwhelming accepting LI high school graduates.
The one issue I have is that with budget cuts and service cuts...very little is cut from the top. If the schools are in fiscal crisis...maybe you need to cut out car allowances and some allowing for unrestricted allowance to accure sick time over decades that only has to be paid out at the end of someone's career. Another huge problem is the double dipping...these admins retire...get their pension and then start working for the school district as a contract worker for the same job that they retired from. I have a big problem with that.
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| Posted 11/13/10 10:14 PM |
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