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how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

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evnme
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aka momma2b

how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

VAT tax

Once Considered Unthinkable, U.S. Sales Tax Gets Fresh Look
Levy Viewed as Way to Reduce Deficits, Fund Health Reform

By Lori Montgomery
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 27, 2009

With budget deficits soaring and President Obama pushing a trillion-dollar-plus expansion of health coverage, some Washington policymakers are taking a fresh look at a money-making idea long considered politically taboo: a national sales tax.

Common around the world, including in Europe, such a tax -- called a value-added tax, or VAT -- has not been seriously considered in the United States. But advocates say few other options can generate the kind of money the nation will need to avert fiscal calamity.

At a White House conference earlier this year on the government's budget problems, a roomful of tax experts pleaded with Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner to consider a VAT. A recent flurry of books and papers on the subject is attracting genuine, if furtive, interest in Congress. And last month, after wrestling with the White House over the massive deficits projected under Obama's policies, the chairman of the Senate Budget Committee declared that a VAT should be part of the debate.

"There is a growing awareness of the need for fundamental tax reform," Sen. Kent Conrad (D-N.D.) said in an interview. "I think a VAT and a high-end income tax have got to be on the table."

A VAT is a tax on the transfer of goods and services that ultimately is borne by the consumer. Highly visible, it would increase the cost of just about everything, from a carton of eggs to a visit with a lawyer. It is also hugely regressive, falling heavily on the poor. But VAT advocates say those negatives could be offset by using the proceeds to pay for health care for every American -- a tangible benefit that would be highly valuable to low-income families.

Liberals dispute that notion. "You could pay for it regressively and have people at the bottom come out better off -- maybe. Or you could pay for it progressively and they'd come out a lot better off," said Bob McIntyre, director of the nonprofit Citizens for Tax Justice, which has a health financing plan that targets corporations and the rich.

A White House official said a VAT is "unlikely to be in the mix" as a means to pay for health-care reform. "While we do not want to rule any credible idea in or out as we discuss the way forward with Congress, the VAT tax, in particular, is popular with academics but highly controversial with policymakers," said Kenneth Baer, a spokesman for White House Budget Director Peter Orszag.

Still, Orszag has hired a prominent VAT advocate to advise him on health care: Ezekiel Emanuel, brother of White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel and author of the 2008 book "Health Care, Guaranteed." Meanwhile, former Federal Reserve chairman Paul A. Volcker, chairman of a task force Obama assigned to study the tax system, has expressed at least tentative support for a VAT.

"Everybody who understands our long-term budget problems understands we're going to need a new source of revenue, and a VAT is an obvious candidate," said Leonard Burman, co-director of the Tax Policy Center, a joint project of the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution, who testified on Capitol Hill this month about his own VAT plan. "It's common to the rest of the world, and we don't have it."

Seeking New Revenue

The surge of interest in a VAT is testament to the extraordinary depth of the nation's money troubles. While some conservatives have long argued that a consumption tax would provide a simpler and more efficient alternative to the byzantine U.S. income tax code, this time it's all about the money.

The federal budget deficit is projected to approach $1.3 trillion next year, the highest ever except for this year, when the deficit is forecast to exceed $1.8 trillion. The Treasury is borrowing 46 cents of every dollar it spends, largely from China and other foreign creditors, who are growing increasingly uneasy about the security of their investments. Unless Congress comes up with some serious cash, expanding the nation's health-care system will only add to the problem.

Obama wants to raise income taxes for high earners and impose new levies on business, but those moves would not generate enough cash to cover the cost of health care, much less balance the budget, and they have not been fully embraced by Congress. Obama's plan to tax greenhouse-gas emissions could raise trillions of dollars, but again, Congress is balking.

Key lawmakers are considering other ways to pay for health reform, including new taxes on sugary soda, alcohol and employer-provided health insurance. The last proposal could raise a lot of money -- nearly $1 trillion over the next five years, according to White House budget documents. But options on the table would raise a fraction of that sum. And while it might pay for health care, it would barely dent deficits projected to total nearly $4 trillion over the next five years and to grow rapidly in the future, as baby boomers draw on Social Security and Medicare.

Enter the VAT, one of the world's most popular taxes, in use in more than 130 countries. Among industrialized nations, rates range from 5 percent in Japan to 25 percent in Hungary and in parts of Scandinavia. A 21 percent VAT has permitted Ireland to attract investment by lowering its corporate tax rate.

The VAT has advantages: Because producers, wholesalers and retailers are each required to record their transactions and pay a portion of the VAT, the tax is hard to dodge. It punishes spending rather than savings, which the administration hopes to encourage. And the threat of a VAT could pull the country out of recession, some economists argue, by hurrying consumers to the mall before the tax hits.

A VAT's Bottom Line

What would it cost? Emanuel argues in his book that a 10 percent VAT would pay for every American not entitled to Medicare or Medicaid to enroll in a health plan with no deductibles and minimal copayments. In his 2008 book, "100 Million Unnecessary Returns," Yale law professor Michael J. Graetz estimates that a VAT of 10 to 14 percent would raise enough money to exempt families earning less than $100,000 -- about 90 percent of households -- from the income tax and would lower rates for everyone else.

And in a paper published last month in the Virginia Tax Review, Burman suggests that a 25 percent VAT could do it all: Pay for health-care reform, balance the federal budget and exempt millions of families from the income tax while slashing the top rate to 25 percent. A gallon of milk would jump from $3.69 to $4.61, and a $5,000 bathroom renovation would suddenly cost $6,250, but the nation's debt would stabilize and everybody could see a doctor.

Sales Tax Gains Momentum

Burman, who helped House Democrats craft an unsuccessful 2007 plan to repeal the alternative minimum tax, said he's received a number of phone calls from lawmakers interested in his idea, though "they can't quite imagine how to make it happen politically." Burman said the 25 percent rate has caused some sticker shock, and he's trying to figure out how to bring it down.

Graetz's proposal drew an endorsement from Volcker, who last year called it "a sensible plan for reform." (Volcker did not respond to a request for comment.) It also has piqued the interest of Conrad, the Senate Budget Committee chairman who argues that it could be modified to accommodate Obama's pledge not to raise taxes on families who make less than $200,000 a year.

"I think interest is quietly picking up," Graetz said. "People are beginning to recognize that the mathematics of the current system are just unsustainable. You have to do something. And a VAT has got to be on the table if you want to do something big and serious."

Still, the Senate Finance Committee declined to include a VAT among the options it is considering to pay for health reform. And even VAT supporters doubt the tax will find a place among the tax-reform proposals the Volcker panel has been asked to produce by Dec. 4.

Though the nation's fiscal outlook is grim, Burman said "the situation will have to get more desperate" before lawmakers are likely to consider a new levy aimed directly at the pocketbooks of every one of their constituents.

Most lawmakers are still looking for "a painless source of revenue" to overhaul the health-care system and dig the nation out of debt, Burman said. "Who knows?" he added. "Maybe the tooth fairy will bring that to them."

Posted 5/27/09 3:40 PM
 
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annoyedTTCer
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Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

A VAT will slow the economic recovery down

Here is a new idea; why doesn't the government learn to do more with less like the rest of us?

Have to love a Democrat that wants a high income tax and a VAT. Sure, punish people for making it and then discourage those same people from helping the country by spending the money they have.

Posted 5/27/09 3:53 PM
 

yankinmanc
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Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

I think its a great idea, one thing I love about about the VAT is that the price on the tag is the price that you pay, no more tax on top of your purchase.

I think its a great idea, no more trips out of state for lower tax rates.

Posted 5/27/09 3:58 PM
 

annoyedTTCer
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Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

Posted by racheeeee

I think its a great idea, one thing I love about about the VAT is that the price on the tag is the price that you pay, no more tax on top of your purchase.

I think its a great idea, no more trips out of state for lower tax rates.



I'm sorry, where did it state the NY state and NY City tax would disappear?

I'n thinking this is on top of the 8.65 of whatever they have us up to these days

Posted 5/27/09 4:11 PM
 

Christine
2nd verse same as the 1st

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Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

I would more then anything love to pay even more taxes. Chat Icon

Posted 5/27/09 4:24 PM
 

Blu-ize
Plan B is Now Plan A

Member since 7/05

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Susan

Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

why don't I just bend over?

They should buy me dinner before they screw me.

Posted 5/27/09 4:34 PM
 

BunnyWife
Insert Witty Comment Here

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BunnyWife

Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

Most of the western world has this type of tax and it's not a big deal. We pay so few taxes compared to most. We also are falling behind the rest of the world in health care and education. If VAT could fund these things I'm all for it.

Posted 5/27/09 4:56 PM
 

annoyedTTCer
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Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

Posted by BunnyWife

Most of the western world has this type of tax and it's not a big deal. We pay so few taxes compared to most. We also are falling behind the rest of the world in health care and education. If VAT could fund these things I'm all for it.



Most of the world has a VAT on top of other taxes?

Again, how about our leaders stop pissing money away and get real for once.

Posted 5/27/09 5:12 PM
 

yankinmanc
Happy Days!

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Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

Posted by annoyedTTCer

Posted by racheeeee

I think its a great idea, one thing I love about about the VAT is that the price on the tag is the price that you pay, no more tax on top of your purchase.

I think its a great idea, no more trips out of state for lower tax rates.



I'm sorry, where did it state the NY state and NY City tax would disappear?

I'n thinking this is on top of the 8.65 of whatever they have us up to these days




I live in the UK, we pay Value Added Tax to everything we buy. Its already added into the price on the price tag. I didn't state that any tax would disappear. Not sure where you go that from. We pay 15% VAT at the moment, it was 17.5% until earlier this year when the government decided to give us a tax break. Thanks Gordon Brown.

Posted 5/27/09 5:13 PM
 

JessInCA
live laugh love

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Jess

Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

I'm never crazy about paying more taxes.

That said, if I had evidence that the money generated from an additional VAT would be used productively, efficiently, and in a way it is needed, I could possibly get behind it.

THAT said, when's the last time I had evidence that our government was doing things productively and efficiently with our taxes? I have no faith in anyone who makes those decisions anymore.

Posted 5/27/09 5:23 PM
 

annoyedTTCer
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Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

Posted by racheeeee

Posted by annoyedTTCer

Posted by racheeeee

I think its a great idea, one thing I love about about the VAT is that the price on the tag is the price that you pay, no more tax on top of your purchase.

I think its a great idea, no more trips out of state for lower tax rates.



I'm sorry, where did it state the NY state and NY City tax would disappear?

I'n thinking this is on top of the 8.65 of whatever they have us up to these days




I live in the UK, we pay Value Added Tax to everything we buy. Its already added into the price on the price tag. I didn't state that any tax would disappear. Not sure where you go that from. We pay 15% VAT at the moment, it was 17.5% until earlier this year when the government decided to give us a tax break. Thanks Gordon Brown.



UK is different than states, here each state/city/county gets a share of the action.

So "VAT is that the price on the tag is the price that you pay, no more tax on top of your purchase" wouldn't be true

Thought that LIF was mostly people that live on or near LI, sorry about that

Posted 5/27/09 5:30 PM
 

Mommy2Boys
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C

Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

Posted by Blu-ize

why don't I just bend over?

They should buy me dinner before they screw me.





Chat Icon Chat Icon Chat Icon Chat Icon Chat Icon Chat Icon

Posted 5/27/09 5:38 PM
 

KPtoys
I'm getting old

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Karen

Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

How about no more income taxes and just tax what you use...

Posted 5/27/09 5:50 PM
 

Erica
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Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

I would rather income tax go up than a VAT tax.

1. once the VAT is instituted...we'll never get rid of it

2. it is a regressive tax - hurts the poor

3. Most other countries in the world are the size of ONE U.S. state. Where have states' rights gone?

I'd like to ask the Europeans if they would like to pay an EU VAT tax on top of their countries' VAT...plsu, let's face it...the rest of the world gets a hell of a lot more from their governments than we do (college, maternity leave, etc) - we will get diddlysquat from this.

Posted 5/27/09 6:00 PM
 

SweetestOfPeas
J'taime Paris!

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Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

how many are laughing now when people accuse Obama of wanting to turn the US into a socialist country? Chat Icon

Posted 5/27/09 7:37 PM
 

Peainapod
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Diana

Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

Posted by Blu-ize

why don't I just bend over?

They should buy me dinner before they screw me.



i love it!!!Chat Icon Chat Icon Chat Icon

Posted 5/27/09 8:18 PM
 

itkocak

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Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

Message edited 11/29/2011 7:57:26 PM.

Posted 5/27/09 8:26 PM
 

Kara
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Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

I support it ONLY if we abolish the federal income tax.

Flame suit securely zipped. Chat Icon

Posted 5/27/09 8:28 PM
 

itkocak

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Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

Message edited 11/29/2011 7:57:46 PM.

Posted 5/27/09 8:33 PM
 

annoyedTTCer
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Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

Posted by imthekevinofcindyandkevin

"But VAT advocates say those negatives could be offset by using the proceeds to pay for health care for every American -- a tangible benefit that would be highly valuable to low-income families."

So if I understand this then you would be able to drop your employer provided medical and pocket that deduction from your pay?




I doubt the government coverage would be better than private coverage

In fact, I hope it's more limited so our tax dollars aren't being wasted more than they already are

Posted 5/28/09 9:36 AM
 

Ophelia
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remember, when Gulliver traveled....

Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

Posted by BunnyWife

Most of the western world has this type of tax and it's not a big deal. We pay so few taxes compared to most. We also are falling behind the rest of the world in health care and education. If VAT could fund these things I'm all for it.



A-FRIGGIN-MEN!

Posted 5/28/09 10:04 AM
 

tourist

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Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

Posted by racheeeee




I live in the UK, we pay Value Added Tax to everything we buy. Its already added into the price on the price tag. I didn't state that any tax would disappear. Not sure where you go that from. We pay 15% VAT at the moment, it was 17.5% until earlier this year when the government decided to give us a tax break. Thanks Gordon Brown.


Wow--that's a lot! I guess you get used to it when itis worked into the sticker price. I guess here, the VAT would be included in the price tag, but then there would be state/city/local tax on top, so it would seem to be the way it is now, but your base price would be higher, b/c the VAT is already included.

Posted 5/28/09 10:38 AM
 

Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)

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remember, when Gulliver traveled....

Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

Posted by tourist

Posted by racheeeee




I live in the UK, we pay Value Added Tax to everything we buy. Its already added into the price on the price tag. I didn't state that any tax would disappear. Not sure where you go that from. We pay 15% VAT at the moment, it was 17.5% until earlier this year when the government decided to give us a tax break. Thanks Gordon Brown.



Wow--that's a lot! I guess you get used to it when itis worked into the sticker price. I guess here, the VAT would be included in the price tag, but then there would be state/city/local tax on top, so it would seem to be the way it is now, but your base price would be higher, b/c the VAT is already included.



it's not really "a lot" when you consider what it pays for.

they pay the VAT, but don't pay as much (if anything for healthcare) their children are guaranteed a college education, in some countries women are guaranteed PAID maternity leave.

sure, euro countries pay FAR more in taxes than we do here, but they get a lot of bang for the buck.

they are not socialists...there are PLENTY of rich people in these countries, just like there are not so rich people.

but the difference is their needs are ALL met at the most basic level...healthcare, education.

Posted 5/28/09 10:53 AM
 

annoyedTTCer
LIF Adult

Member since 4/09

3272 total posts

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Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

Posted by Ophelia

Posted by tourist

Posted by racheeeee




I live in the UK, we pay Value Added Tax to everything we buy. Its already added into the price on the price tag. I didn't state that any tax would disappear. Not sure where you go that from. We pay 15% VAT at the moment, it was 17.5% until earlier this year when the government decided to give us a tax break. Thanks Gordon Brown.



Wow--that's a lot! I guess you get used to it when itis worked into the sticker price. I guess here, the VAT would be included in the price tag, but then there would be state/city/local tax on top, so it would seem to be the way it is now, but your base price would be higher, b/c the VAT is already included.



it's not really "a lot" when you consider what it pays for.

they pay the VAT, but don't pay as much (if anything for healthcare) their children are guaranteed a college education, in some countries women are guaranteed PAID maternity leave.

sure, euro countries pay FAR more in taxes than we do here, but they get a lot of bang for the buck.

they are not socialists...there are PLENTY of rich people in these countries, just like there are not so rich people.

but the difference is their needs are ALL met at the most basic level...healthcare, education.




We cover education through high school, why should the government cover more than that?

How many rich Europeans have left their home country to avoid taxes?

Not all of us want to pay tax rates similar to those in Europe, some of us would like to keep what we earn.

By the way, if Europe is such a great place why is their unemployment rate usually higher than ours?

As for health insurance, a large percentage of people without insurance are people in their late 20s who opt to not have insurance because they don't want to pay for it. Why are we going to give short sighted people like that a free ride?

Posted 5/28/09 11:05 AM
 

Blu-ize
Plan B is Now Plan A

Member since 7/05

32475 total posts

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Susan

Re: how do you feel about a national sales tax on top of regular sales tax

Posted by annoyedTTCer

Posted by imthekevinofcindyandkevin

"But VAT advocates say those negatives could be offset by using the proceeds to pay for health care for every American -- a tangible benefit that would be highly valuable to low-income families."

So if I understand this then you would be able to drop your employer provided medical and pocket that deduction from your pay?




I doubt the government coverage would be better than private coverage

In fact, I hope it's more limited so our tax dollars aren't being wasted more than they already are



If it's anything like the coverage my brother has through his school district then it beats mine hands down. I work for a financial institution and think my coverage is pretty damn good but I have out of pocket fees that blow me away for my supposedly great coverage.

Posted 5/28/09 11:07 AM
 
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