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North Dakota governor signs "heartbeat" abortion ban
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maybebaby
LIF Adult
Member since 11/05 6870 total posts
Name:
Maureen
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Re: North Dakota governor signs "heartbeat" abortion ban
While I am pro-life and very anti the entire idea/process of abortion, I DO understand why it happens and try not to judge because I have never been in an awful position of carrying a child that was conceived out of rape, or carrying a very sick child who will not survive birth. I have much much empathy in those situations and feel a woman in those situations has to do whatever she deems right for herself. So I guess by that definition i'm not 100% pro-life.
However...I do think in this country we tend to separate ourselves from what the process truly is. It truly sickens and hurts me when some women make the choice because of inconvenience/birth control etc...and especially later term abortions...I just don't understand it. If the world was a bit more educated as to the process and true horror of most abortion I don't think we'd be so quick to say "my body, my choice". In a womans body, a child lives. The only protection the unborn have in this world is their mothers body. No other. I don't know how so many of us are so desensitized to that notion.
I know many people understand that abortion can be horrifying and gruesome. And they still support choice. Which is fine. But I personally do feel we need more support for the unborn, and believe me...I feel as much as the next person that in an ideal world birth control would be implemented like crazy, and abortion wouldn't need to exist. But I understand, sadly, that it's a necessary evil.
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Posted 3/28/13 10:06 AM  |
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ElizaRags35
My 2 Girls
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North Dakota governor signs
I think a lot of "pro-lifers" (put in quotes b/c it's a misnomer IMO) don't understand that abortion is not only a choice for women who become pregnant by accident and do not want the baby or to terminate pregnancies that are a result of a rape.
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| Posted 3/28/13 10:22 AM |
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Re: North Dakota governor signs "heartbeat" abortion ban
Posted by MRsFaTThead
i wonder how this govenor or any dummy would feel if his daughter was rapped by a monster and was forced to listent to the HB then only to find out it had genetic abnormalities 
YES!!! THIS!!!! The government really needs to stop telling us what to drink, who to marry, and what to do with our bodies. They don't have anything better to do? People have their beliefs and I am 100% with that, believe what you will, but don't push it on other people through your "power".
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| Posted 3/28/13 10:26 AM |
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maybebaby
LIF Adult
Member since 11/05 6870 total posts
Name:
Maureen
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Re: North Dakota governor signs "heartbeat" abortion ban
Posted by ElizaRags35
I think a lot of "pro-lifers" (put in quotes b/c it's a misnomer IMO) don't understand that abortion is not only a choice for women who become pregnant by accident and do not want the baby or to terminate pregnancies that are a result of a rape.
Well I for one understand that abortion is a choice made for tons of different reasons...by all types of age groups/ethnicities etc...
I do understand WHY it happens but it doesn't mean that my moral compass agrees with the process and the reality behind it. I can understand in the few situations why it's a choice that is made by women, I sincerely do...but its other reasons that I can't justify. I remember reading that blog by a woman who aborted her son and kept the twin sister. Just because, well, she didn't want another boy and didn't want to raise two babies at the same time.
THESE situations are an abuse of "choice". That poor child died because of a selfish person that calls themselves a "mom". I can't bear to hear "well its her choice even though its not right.." NO. It should NOT be her choice in a situation like this! Even if her case is rare, people like this exist and murder their children because of selfish reasons. I think thing like this need closer legislation.
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| Posted 3/28/13 10:35 AM |
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dpli
Daylight savings :)
Member since 5/05 13973 total posts
Name:
D
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Re: North Dakota governor signs "heartbeat" abortion ban
Without getting into the emotional part of this argument, I just think from a practical, medical standpoint it seems too restrictive. I know when I got pregnant, I knew as soon as I missed my period and took a test. My doctor's office wouldn't even schedule an appointment until I was 8 weeks at the earliest. For me, I knew at 8 or 9 weeks when they heard the heartbeat I was pregnant, but I was trying to get pregnant and was watching my cycle and testing.
If I wasn't trying to get pregnant, it is very possible that I would not have realized I was pregnant UNTIL I was 8 or 9 weeks along. So assuming that is the case, I take a test, go to the doctor where it is confirmed that I am in fact pregnant, but since the doc can hear the heartbeat, I have no choice about what I want to do in this scenario? That seems to be an attack on women's rights. I have always said I don't see myself ever having an abortion, but I do think they should be legal because there are situations where I do think a woman absolutely should have a choice, particularly in the examples shared by the APs. Sorry for your losses 
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| Posted 3/28/13 10:42 AM |
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ElizaRags35
My 2 Girls
Member since 2/09 20494 total posts
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Me
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Re: North Dakota governor signs "heartbeat" abortion ban
Posted by maybebaby
Posted by ElizaRags35
I think a lot of "pro-lifers" (put in quotes b/c it's a misnomer IMO) don't understand that abortion is not only a choice for women who become pregnant by accident and do not want the baby or to terminate pregnancies that are a result of a rape.
Well I for one understand that abortion is a choice made for tons of different reasons...by all types of age groups/ethnicities etc...
I do understand WHY it happens but it doesn't mean that my moral compass agrees with the process and the reality behind it. I can understand in the few situations why it's a choice that is made by women, I sincerely do...but its other reasons that I can't justify. I remember reading that blog by a woman who aborted her son and kept the twin sister. Just because, well, she didn't want another boy and didn't want to raise two babies at the same time.
THESE situations are an abuse of "choice". That poor child died because of a selfish person that calls themselves a "mom". I can't bear to hear "well its her choice even though its not right.." NO. It should NOT be her choice in a situation like this! Even if her case is rare, people like this exist and murder their children because of selfish reasons. I think thing like this need closer legislation.
Yes but like you said, it's the exception, not the norm. As someone who has been TTCing for a very long time, it does pain me to hear stories like that but I know that my thoughts on abortion are my own and not anyone else's. I would never have an abortion (unless there was something wrong with the baby or my health was affected) and I think it's a horrible (but necessarily legal) medical procedure but it's not up to me what someone else does. It is between that WOMAN and her DOCTOR. Not the government, not a politician's, not me, not you.
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| Posted 3/28/13 10:52 AM |
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Dani
Life is about choices.
Member since 5/05 6532 total posts
Name:
Dani
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Re: North Dakota governor signs "heartbeat" abortion ban
I don't know you but I think I love you!
Funny that cases of rape are being highlighted in this discussions. How about women like ME? I had an abortion early January. My very much wanted son had Trisomy 18-which is in NO WAY compatible with life. He would have survived maybe a few hours. His organs were formed outside of his body. I have 2 other children--could you imagine or fathom the trauma for me, for my DH and my children not to mention the excruciating pain my son would have endured? It's not a decision I made light-heartedly or wanted to make. I made my decision out of love. And the idea that a state has made this choice already for women like me is horrifying. I WAS protecting my unborn child.
I sincerely hope for those are so overwhelming against women having a choice that you never are faced with the decision to terminate a pregnancy.
Message edited 3/28/2013 11:06:34 AM.
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| Posted 3/28/13 11:05 AM |
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Pumpkin1
LIF Adult
Member since 12/05 3715 total posts
Name:
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Re: North Dakota governor signs "heartbeat" abortion ban
As I understand it, the main difference between the "pro-life" and "pro-choice" camps is the definition of when life begins. Many laws are currently written on the basis that life begins at birth, and not at conception. However, there are other laws, including this North Dakota law, that are adding more confusion to this distinction because these laws are setting different benchmarks for when "life" begins (i.e. this HB law seems to legislate that life begins at 8 weeks, the "late term abortion" laws seem to dictate that life begins somewhere around 22 weeks, etc.)
The definition of when life begins affects many other areas of law, including inheritance rights, next of kin, criminal laws. These various legislative definitions is going to cause legal nightwares down the wire.
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| Posted 3/28/13 11:09 AM |
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Paramount
Sweet!
Member since 7/12 4287 total posts
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Re: North Dakota governor signs "heartbeat" abortion ban
Posted by maybebaby
I do understand WHY it happens but it doesn't mean that my moral compass agrees with the process and the reality behind it. I can understand in the few situations why it's a choice that is made by women, I sincerely do...but its other reasons that I can't justify. I remember reading that blog by a woman who aborted her son and kept the twin sister. Just because, well, she didn't want another boy and didn't want to raise two babies at the same time.
THESE situations are an abuse of "choice". That poor child died because of a selfish person that calls themselves a "mom". I can't bear to hear "well its her choice even though its not right.." NO. It should NOT be her choice in a situation like this! Even if her case is rare, people like this exist and murder their children because of selfish reasons. I think thing like this need closer legislation.
On the top paragraph: I think most (in not all?) people who are pro-choice agree. I personally, CANT justify getting rid of a bay because you JUST dont want to wear a condom...or whatever the "stupid" reason is. Most, if not all pro-choice advocates dont agree with this kind of thinking. Most, if not all, would probably agree.
On your second paragrah: I believe, again, the argument is wrong, and please, I COMPLETLY respect your opinion. You have given a very thoughtful and well laid out thoughts on your opinion. I respect that coming froma pro choice side. And frankly, FUNDAMENTALLY, I dont disagree. Abortion JUST because you didnt want to wear a condom? I agree. Its pretty disgusting too.
Hovever.
Its the "stupid" that is the fundamental problem with this debate (not YOU, but "the debate").
Who would be the person to decide what is "stupid". What would be the criteria? Who actually says:
"Well, I feel a heartbeat is too late."
"I feel 20 week is too late."
"I feel that not wearing is condom is not good enough."
"Abnormality? well, I feel you should have the baby and see what happens."
"Rape? Not good enough excuse."
The problem is WHO will make the decision on what they THINK is right? The man in the suit on capital hill. Not MY doctor.
You see? THAT is what the argument really is. Its someone else telling me what they THINK is right. Its a man (usually), in a suit, in my capital building making a law. Its a man (usually) thinking about HIS morals, and what HE THINKS is right and just for women to live by.
Its someone ELSE making MY medical decisions for me based on THEIR beliefs and morals, NOT on MY medical needs.
I need these decisions to be made between me and my doctor. Not me and my congressman, nor me and my cathlic/budist/jeiwsh/muslim neighbor.
I say again, and the argumet, fundamentally is as celar as it can be. Anti abortion laws are:
...Someone ELSE making MY medical decisions for me based on THEIR beliefs and morals, not on my medical needs.
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| Posted 3/28/13 11:13 AM |
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ThePinkGoose
In Your Hands
Member since 8/08 4706 total posts
Name:
Nunya
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Re: North Dakota governor signs "heartbeat" abortion ban
Posted by Paramount
Posted by ThePinkGoose
Posted by Denise
Wow! This is totally fantastic. At least somebody is taking a stand for the innocent unborn!
I agree!! I'm thrilled to hear about this. Also asking that I don't start a debate on this. This is my opinion and i'm entitled to it. Not bashing anyone else's views so please respect mine.
And with these 2 statements we see what is terribly terribly wrong with this country. Scary wrong with this country. Deeply troubbling and concerning on an alarming level.
You both are entitled to your beliefs. I am actually not going to even comment on how you feel. This is not a comment on YOU, but the anti abortion movement, and people pushing their morals on others.
What’s wrong with the country is my having to live by OTHER peoples morals and religion.
Your morals are NOT mine.
Your beliefs are NOT mine.
Your religion is ABSOLUTELY not mine.
My medical procedures, no matter how distasteful to you, should not be your concern.
Where is the outrage at men getting vasectamy? Women getting historectomy? It still stops life.
I should not have laws stopping me from doing something because YOUR religion and morals say so.
Even take religion out. Your morals. I should not have to live by YOUR standards.
Nor should you have to live by mine.
Abortion MUST stay legal to save woman’s lives are saved.
We can have a philosophical discussion about life. When it starts, babies being murdered, etc etc. This really is NOT the issue. Its not the argument.
The argument is: I should have medical procedure *I* want based on my choices and my doctors recommendation. I should not be stopped from ANY medical procedure because some find it distasteful. It’s not your body. Its not YOUR medical procedure.
And someone said it very well. The ultra conservatives and republicans want SO badly to stop abortion at all costs. They have NO desire to PAY for all the unwanted kids. They have no desire to add money for social services (and all that comes with an unwanted child). I think it’s much more distasteful to be forced into having a pregnancy you don’t want.
And the worste part, and what is alarming on more levels that cant even be comprehended? What happens if the mothers life is in danger? You say "oh it will be fine and the mother will be protected".
Will she? What happens to the doctor who hears a heartbeat, but its dangerous for the mother? He says "yeah, lets wait and see". Would he make a call based on not wanted to get prosecuted? Or by the best interest of the mother? Dont shake your head that it "CANT" happen. It can and will.
Womens lives are in MORTAL danger because of this law. I am outraged that women are forced to what OTHERS say is best for them.
Paramount, i'm curious how you took my statement and felt compelled to write this:
"And with these 2 statements we see what is terribly terribly wrong with this country. Scary wrong with this country. Deeply troubbling and concerning on an alarming level."
Really? I'm curious. What exactly was it in my statement that you found terribly, terribly wrong? What was so deeply troubling and concerning to you on an alarming level? Please let me know because based on what you wrote after that statement, it seems like you took my statement and ran with it, ranting about your interpretation of my views.
You go on to say that "My beliefs are not yours" and how my religion is not yours. I don't remember ever stating that.
I'm a bit surprised at your response because i've had some lengthy conversations with you in the past and find you to be a wonderful person. I'm just taken aback by your long-winded response and "quoting" of my post.
If you wanted to know, you could have simply asked instead of dismissing my statement altogether because you disagree with it. I dont view abortions as a "medical procedure" at all.
I asked that we dont debate this because obviously neither side will see the others POV or change their mind so it's pointless. I just found it unsettling that I wasn't allowed the opportunity to voice my opinion without being "quoted" and misinterpreted.
Message edited 3/28/2013 11:19:21 AM.
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| Posted 3/28/13 11:18 AM |
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ElizaRags35
My 2 Girls
Member since 2/09 20494 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: North Dakota governor signs "heartbeat" abortion ban
Posted by Paramount
Posted by maybebaby
I do understand WHY it happens but it doesn't mean that my moral compass agrees with the process and the reality behind it. I can understand in the few situations why it's a choice that is made by women, I sincerely do...but its other reasons that I can't justify. I remember reading that blog by a woman who aborted her son and kept the twin sister. Just because, well, she didn't want another boy and didn't want to raise two babies at the same time.
THESE situations are an abuse of "choice". That poor child died because of a selfish person that calls themselves a "mom". I can't bear to hear "well its her choice even though its not right.." NO. It should NOT be her choice in a situation like this! Even if her case is rare, people like this exist and murder their children because of selfish reasons. I think thing like this need closer legislation.
On the top paragraph: I think most (in not all?) people who are pro-choice agree. I personally, CANT justify getting rid of a bay because you JUST dont want to wear a condom...or whatever the "stupid" reason is. Most, if not all pro-choice advocates dont agree with this kind of thinking. Most, if not all, would probably agree.
On your second paragrah: I believe, again, the argument is wrong, and please, I COMPLETLY respect your opinion. You have given a very thoughtful and well laid out thoughts on your opinion. I respect that coming froma pro choice side. And frankly, FUNDAMENTALLY, I dont disagree. Abortion JUST because you didnt want to wear a condom? I agree. Its pretty disgusting too.
Hovever.
Its the "stupid" that is the fundamental problem with this debate (not YOU, but "the debate").
Who would be the person to decide what is "stupid". What would be the criteria? Who actually says:
"Well, I feel a heartbeat is too late."
"I feel 20 week is too late."
"I feel that not wearing is condom is not good enough."
"Abnormality? well, I feel you should have the baby and see what happens."
"Rape? Not good enough excuse."
The problem is WHO will make the decision on what they THINK is right? The man in the suit on capital hill. Not MY doctor.
You see? THAT is what the argument really is. Its someone else telling me what they THINK is right. Its a man (usually), in a suit, in my capital building making a law. Its a man (usually) thinking about HIS morals, and what HE THINKS is right and just for women to live by.
Its someone ELSE making MY medical decisions for me based on THEIR beliefs and morals, NOT on MY medical needs.
I need these decisions to be made between me and my doctor. Not me and my congressman, nor me and my cathlic/budist/jeiwsh/muslim neighbor.
I say again, and the argumet, fundamentally is as celar as it can be. Anti abortion laws are:
...Someone ELSE making MY medical decisions for me based on THEIR beliefs and morals, not on my medical needs.
Exactly.
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| Posted 3/28/13 11:18 AM |
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Paramount
Sweet!
Member since 7/12 4287 total posts
Name:
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Re: North Dakota governor signs "heartbeat" abortion ban
Posted by ThePinkGoose
Paramount, i'm curious how you took my statement and felt compelled to write this:
"And with these 2 statements we see what is terribly terribly wrong with this country. Scary wrong with this country. Deeply troubbling and concerning on an alarming level."
Really? I'm curious. What exactly was it in my statement that you found terribly, terribly wrong? What was so deeply troubling and concerning to you on an alarming level? Please let me know because based on what you wrote after that statement, it seems like you took my statement and ran with it, ranting about your interpretation of my views.
You go on to say that "My beliefs are not yours" and how my religion is not yours. I don't remember ever stating that.
I'm a bit surprised at your response because i've had some lengthy conversations with you in the past and find you to be a wonderful person. I'm just taken aback by your long-winded response and "quoting" of my post.
If you wanted to know, you could have simply asked instead of dismissing my statement altogether because you disagree with it. I dont view abortions as a "medical procedure" at all.
I asked that we dont debate this because obviously neither side will see the others POV or change their mind so it's pointless. I just found it unsettling that I wasn't allowed the opportunity to voice my opinion without being "quoted" and misinterpreted.
Fair question(s). And you deserve an answer.
Your right. I don’t know your religious background. I find that most people who are anti-abortion make their decisions based on religion. "My XYZ religion says it’s wrong, so it’s wrong". It’s a blanket statement that is not fair. For that, I'm sorry.
Your statements I responded to:
Posted by ThePinkGoose
Posted by Denise
Wow! This is totally fantastic. At least somebody is taking a stand for the innocent unborn!
I agree!! I'm thrilled to hear about this. Also asking that I don't start a debate on this. This is my opinion and i'm entitled to it. Not bashing anyone else's views so please respect mine.
To most people who believe in choice, these 2 statements are not addressing the REAL issue, and show why there is such a fundamental problem with abortion law. We can debate about when life starts, the innocent unborn, zygotes, 20 weeks, murder, and yes medical procedure. We will not agree. And we will never see eye to eye.
With that said, I see the FUNDAMENTAL problem is this: We don’t agree, but it’s STILL a medical procedure.
Your morals and beliefs (however you have come to the conclusion) tell YOU abortion is wrong and must be stopped. I do respect that. I don’t agree, but I respect that.
Your beliefs and morals say there should not be abortion. I don’t agree with your morals or beliefs. They are not mine. And so, I should not be denied medical care because of someone else’s beliefs or morals.
Ultimately, we as a society should not have to live by others beliefs. I should have no hindrance on my medical care because of what others THINK is right or wrong. What YOU think is right or wrong is not what *I* think is right or wrong.
I should not be denied any medical procedure because someone ELSE (my neighbor, the congressman, a priest, a rabbi, the guy who sells me my coffee) says THEY don’t like it.
The fundamental problem is that I should be able to have medical treatment I want, and should be between me and my doctor. It should not be legislated from a senator’s office. It should be decided in my doctor’s office.
I apologize if I miss quoted you and miss represented your words. That was not my intention and I will publicly say I was wrong if I did that.
Message edited 3/28/2013 11:51:14 AM.
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| Posted 3/28/13 11:50 AM |
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Jugglemom
LIF Adolescent
Member since 3/12 809 total posts
Name:
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Re: North Dakota governor signs "heartbeat" abortion ban
Posted by Paramount
Posted by ThePinkGoose
Paramount, i'm curious how you took my statement and felt compelled to write this:
"And with these 2 statements we see what is terribly terribly wrong with this country. Scary wrong with this country. Deeply troubbling and concerning on an alarming level."
Really? I'm curious. What exactly was it in my statement that you found terribly, terribly wrong? What was so deeply troubling and concerning to you on an alarming level? Please let me know because based on what you wrote after that statement, it seems like you took my statement and ran with it, ranting about your interpretation of my views.
You go on to say that "My beliefs are not yours" and how my religion is not yours. I don't remember ever stating that.
I'm a bit surprised at your response because i've had some lengthy conversations with you in the past and find you to be a wonderful person. I'm just taken aback by your long-winded response and "quoting" of my post.
If you wanted to know, you could have simply asked instead of dismissing my statement altogether because you disagree with it. I dont view abortions as a "medical procedure" at all.
I asked that we dont debate this because obviously neither side will see the others POV or change their mind so it's pointless. I just found it unsettling that I wasn't allowed the opportunity to voice my opinion without being "quoted" and misinterpreted.
Fair question(s). And you deserve an answer.
Your right. I don’t know your religious background. I find that most people who are anti-abortion make their decisions based on religion. "My XYZ religion says it’s wrong, so it’s wrong". It’s a blanket statement that is not fair. For that, I'm sorry.
Your statements I responded to:
Posted by ThePinkGoose
Posted by Denise
Wow! This is totally fantastic. At least somebody is taking a stand for the innocent unborn!
I agree!! I'm thrilled to hear about this. Also asking that I don't start a debate on this. This is my opinion and i'm entitled to it. Not bashing anyone else's views so please respect mine.
To most people who believe in choice, these 2 statements are not addressing the REAL issue, and show why there is such a fundamental problem with abortion law. We can debate about when life starts, the innocent unborn, zygotes, 20 weeks, murder, and yes medical procedure. We will not agree. And we will never see eye to eye.
With that said, I see the FUNDAMENTAL problem is this: We don’t agree, but it’s STILL a medical procedure.
Your morals and beliefs (however you have come to the conclusion) tell YOU abortion is wrong and must be stopped. I do respect that. I don’t agree, but I respect that.
Your beliefs and morals say there should not be abortion. I don’t agree with your morals or beliefs. They are not mine. And so, I should not be denied medical care because of someone else’s beliefs or morals.
Ultimately, we as a society should not have to live by others beliefs. I should have no hindrance on my medical care because of what others THINK is right or wrong. What YOU think is right or wrong is not what *I* think is right or wrong.
I should not be denied any medical procedure because someone ELSE (my neighbor, the congressman, a priest, a rabbi, the guy who sells me my coffee) says THEY don’t like it.
The fundamental problem is that I should be able to have medical treatment I want, and should be between me and my doctor. It should not be legislated from a senator’s office. It should be decided in my doctor’s office.
I apologize if I miss quoted you and miss represented your words. That was not my intention and I will publicly say I was wrong if I did that.
I am pro-choice but I wanted to comment on this idea of living by others' morals. We do this every day and it is morality that informs our laws. Murder is wrong because we decided as a society that it was wrong. Just like theft etc. there are laws in other countries that exist because their social moral construct considers it immoral while here it is fine. If someone decides that theft is not against their morals they still are subject to our laws and morality that dictates that it is, in fact, wrong. As a society, we decide what morality means for the whole - we don't exercise relativism.
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| Posted 3/28/13 12:32 PM |
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ThePinkGoose
In Your Hands
Member since 8/08 4706 total posts
Name:
Nunya
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Re: North Dakota governor signs "heartbeat" abortion ban
PARAMOUNT:
Thank you. I sincerely appreciate your response.
When I first responded to this post, I was hesitant to do so, knowing that my views on this matter are unpopular on these boards. I find that any "unpopular" views are generally flamed and attacked, judged, it's certainly not an open forum for discussion and usually ends up in a nasty debate. I have no interest in that. Perhaps if we could all express our views without someone else debating them or picking them apart, we might all learn from one another. Just because I make a statement, it doesn't address my every single thought on the matter. I find it unfair to take that one statement or opinion and just assume that you completely understand someone else's view. We all come from different backgrounds, educations, religions and what you said is true....my views/beliefs should not be imposed on YOU (or whoever).
I'm not going to deeply explain my views on abortion because it would take hours and discussion and what would come of it? My outlook on this is a grey area. I would never want to tell another human being what they can/cannot do with their own body. I would never want to prevent another human being from receiving a medical procedure. Admittedly, my opinion is somewhat affected by my religion, yes. However, it runs deeper than that. It stems from my respect for life and my views on when life begins, it stems from what I feel is our obligation to protect another human life and also my feelings that the right to abortion is severely abused. I can't say that I would never be in favor of an abortion in the case of sickness or harm to the mother or a few select other situations. BUT....how can we limit it to these situations? How can we prevent other people from abusing this right and using abortion as birth control. I, myself, have so many unanswered questions but this issue is just so Black/White. There is no grey area where we can be open to discussion and find a solution. It's either YES or NO. So, I just wanted to touch on that because when you responded, it did upset me and I felt that you assumed so much about me.
I really appreciate you sharing your feelings and your apology. It's so refreshing to be able to have a respectful and classy conversation and I appreciate you. Thank you!
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| Posted 3/28/13 12:33 PM |
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