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tara73
carseat nerd
Member since 11/09 3669 total posts
Name:
Buttercup
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Re: On the subject of Occupy Wall St...
Posted by Jesses-Girl
Posted by tarabelle99
Posted by Jesses-Girl
Posted by tarabelle99
Posted by tarabelle99
Posted by rojerono
Why do people always jump to places like Cuba and the like? How about Finland? Denmark?
For the same reason they always say Canadians come here for treatment because their system is rotten.
It's to scare us into believing that our currently broken system is superior.
Read.
Why do PEOPLE always.....
Generalized question. It didn't say Why does jesses-girl....
My answer, to a general question, was a generalization.
I hope your children go to private schools. That is a socialized institution as well.
We can sit here an argue about the semantics of it all day, but the fact remains, free healthcare didn't bring down Cuba. 
You clearly quoted Rojerono's quote of MY POST, therefore directly commenting on my reference of Cuba. I don't appreciate your patronizing. You've manipulated my words to favor your agenda twice now. It is my opinion that the healthcare system in Cuba was an integral part of the society's collapse. I'm sorry that you aren't tolerant of opinions other than your own.
I didn't patronize you or manipulate your words. You were quite clear in your posts that healthcare brought Cuba down. Look, you just said it AGAIN.
Right here:
It is my opinion that the healthcare system in Cuba was an integral part of the society's collapse
Funny, I thought it was many factors, one of the biggest being the US trade embargo in place for the last 50 or so years.
Why do you refuse to acknowledge that MANY other nations have SUCCESSFUL healthcare plans for its' citizens?
ETA: you weren't the ONLY person to mention Cuba either. So how you think it's all about you is beyond me
For the last time, you quoted my post! You put words in my mouth twice, once by claiming that I was using Cuba as a "scare tactic" and the second time by insisting that I blame healthcare for Cuba's demise (which is not what I said). Last time I checked, the word PART meant a contributing factor, not the sole reason. You clearly stated that it is a "fact" that healthcare didn't bring down Cuba. Glad you are the expert
And what on earth do you think the embargo was for? It was a response to the lack of respect for human rights. Half of Cuban doctors fled the country when Castro implemented his healthcare system amongst other changes to their government. You clearly fail to see the bigger picture.
It's people like you who hinder friendly debate on these boards, since you have such a lack of respect for opinions other than your own.
rojerono quoted your post.
I quoted HER post and answered HER question. Your quote was simply a byproduct of hers. If you have issue with what you posted being quoted, maybe you should direct it at the person who quoted you in the first place.
As I said before... YOU are not the only poster who mentioned Cuba.
I have never claimed to be an expert, but you have claimed that socialistic medicine will guide is down the same path as Cuba. You haven't acknowledging that other countries are successful with socialized medicine nor have you acknowledged that we already employ a very socialistic methodology of educating our children.
Please tell me why other countries are clearly succeeding with socialized medicine and have higher happiness rates than us and why socialized education hasn't made us the United States of Socialized America, since by your logic any socialized concept will lead us to full blown socialism. If you explain this phenomenon to me I will concede your points, and have no choice but to agree that the US will become the next Cuba or Czech Republic if we have socialized medicine. Until then, yea you are fear mongering. It is what it is. Back up your statements. . Sorry. It's not opinion, it's fact when your one example of failure doesn't back up what you're stating when there are numerous successes in the equation.
The only one twisting words is you. I never said it was "fact" that any ONE factor contributed to Cuba's decline, I actually stated it was MANY factors, INCLUDING embargoes. YOU are the one stating that healthcare was the integral part of the collapse, it was the sole cause, as I've pointed out before. Cuba's human rights violations were not nationalized healthcare. Violationos of human rights would be things like religious persecution, torturing prisoners, political oppression, denial of basic human rights. Health care is considered by the UN to BE a basic human right. Cuba's healthcare system suffers because of US embargoes restricting supplies and medicines, if anything.
I have not called you names, I have simply stated your argument doesn't have any merit. If you feel I'm wrong, show me evidence that the Cuban healthcare system (which is generally regarded as good and has increased life expectency) is the integral cause of their collapse as you claim. Back up what you say.
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Posted 10/19/11 4:01 PM  |
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BlackJack96
LIF Infant
Member since 6/08 245 total posts
Name:
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Re: On the subject of Occupy Wall St...
I finally got around to reading this whole thread and had to comment.
First off on the healthcare. Due to a variety of factors we cannot have the same health care system that they have in Euro countries (and many of them are crippled under the financial demands of socialized medicine). I do think some "safety net" style program is in order but I would not support a full on socialized system.
The closest thing we have to government health care right now is medicaid and it pays pretty crappy. I get less per hour by insurance to manage a critically ill child than my plumber does to fix my pipes! (However, hospital medicine is a complex shell game where higher earning depts support the ones that do not make as much money so I end up OK.) As a result of this crappy pay it's hard to find a physician who actually accepts medicaid outside of nonprofit hospitals.
There is hypocrisy on BOTH sides of the healthcare debate. Those on the left have the unrealistic expectation that EVERYONE can have the same level of health care and it all be paid for with public money. Also those on the left could have doctors in their pocket if they just address medical malpractice. However, thanks to lobbying that will never happen. Those on the right scream about anyone getting a handout from healthcare yet you mention about restricting Medicare (even though we all "pay in" we all get a lot more out of it) and the Tea Party riots faster than you can say Death Panel. Also, those on the right need to realize that while indigent folks can get care in an ER we are all paying for this anyway so we might as well have some safety net. i.e. if a poor person with no insurance goes to the ED and gets a $1000 bill and does not pay. The hospital just eats it and passes it along. Also, everyone voted in Medicare Part D which while it's great that it gives drug bennies to seniors. We are paying full prices for drugs that we could have negotiated better rates.
Here's what I think would work (but NO ONE would agree to). A basic barebones health care plan for all funded by the government. This would provide basic well care (pretty cheap) and access to generic drugs (which can treat most things). There would be rationing. No heroic end of life care would be covered (but palliative care most definitely would be). i.e no $40,000 prostate cancer drug that extends your life by 3 months. I repeat there would be rationing. If you want more than this then you get your own insurance.
As far as the poor:
I think there are a lot more people than we know of who milk the system. I work in a hospital that is primarily medicaid. If you are on medicaid (i.e. we the taxpayers are funding your healthcare) you should not have an: iPad, iPod, iPhone, air Jordans, Louis Vitton bag, Bugaboo stroller, etc, etc, etc. Some of these folks are not so well off and not making good choices with their money. Others are in cash businesses and are committing fraud. I also think if you're working hard near the bottom (i.e. you work 3 jobs to barely get by) it's easier to give up and just take the hand out. That to me is a big problem.
For the rich:
We can rail at the banksters making tons of money. However, I know that for me to make $100,000 in my retirement accounts someone managing the fund needs to make $1,000,000. I think what's key to remember is that unless you have zero money invested in any 529 or retirement funds you are part of wall street and benefit from it's success.
For taxing the companies:
There was a good 60 minute episode about companies such as Google and Cisco that maintain a small enough presence off shore to keep their focus of operations there and avoid taxes. All perfectly legal and out in the open. Unfortunately, as long as other countries offer lower tax rates to companies they will go there. We need to be competitive in the global market place. We need to realize that companies are only beholden to the stockholders (and we are the stockholders) and they are not trying to be nice or play fair. We could say f u to these companies, raise the taxes and drive them out. Or we could try lowering the taxes to lure them in.
On taxing us the people:
Personally, I like the idea of the Fair Tax. Where I get my money up front and am taxed when I spend it.
I think that's enough of a rant for now....
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| Posted 10/19/11 5:09 PM |
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Blazesyth
*yawn*
Member since 5/05 8129 total posts
Name:
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Re: On the subject of Occupy Wall St...
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| Posted 10/19/11 6:36 PM |
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bookworm
Two Little Rosebuds
Member since 8/09 2106 total posts
Name:
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Re: On the subject of Occupy Wall St...
Posted by colette
Posted by bookworm
Posted by colette
3) There is a level of depravity that, as a society, we are dangerously close to entering and that is NOT ok. How we treat the most VULNERABLE (the illegals, the addicts, the animals, the children, the sick and the elderly) is WHO WE ARE.
I'm sorry, and this has nothing to do with race, just pure economics: our wish-washy handling of immigration prevents us from expanding the social safety net (i.e. universal health care) for Americans. I could tell you first-hand the devastating impact immigration has on schools (another socialized institution), but I don't want to hijack the thread. In both cases, you're looking at middle class American families paying more and more for an ever shrinking slice of the pie. That's what happens when you swing open the doors to the world's poverty. Do I understand and sympathize? Of course, but there's no way to help everyone and maintain this standard of living.
Actually, I'm looking at corporations and the super-rich paying less and less for an ever growing slice of the pie. That's some pure economics right there.
Spoken by the child of 2 immigrants.
And wife of an immigrant.
I also agree with you about corporations. It makes me really angry, and while I think the OWS initiative lacks a set of clear demands that would enable others to take them more seriously, I celebrate the fact that they're motivated to speak out and refuse to back down.
As far as immigration, I'm always happy to hear a story about coming to this country and living the American dream. I wish American kids had the same initiative of the immigrants of old, just as I wish I could say I was observing the same attitude in schools today among the ESL population. But it doesn't change the dollars and cents of what I am talking about.
Message edited 10/19/2011 7:01:30 PM.
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| Posted 10/19/11 6:55 PM |
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emilylives
biking
Member since 12/09 2163 total posts
Name:
Emily
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Re: On the subject of Occupy Wall St...
Just saw this quote and thought it was so relevant to this conversation:
"Live simply so that others can simply live." -Elizabeth Seton
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| Posted 10/19/11 7:44 PM |
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3girls1dog
LIF Adult
Member since 10/09 929 total posts
Name:
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Re: On the subject of Occupy Wall St...
Posted by BlackJack96
I finally got around to reading this whole thread and had to comment.
First off on the healthcare. Due to a variety of factors we cannot have the same health care system that they have in Euro countries (and many of them are crippled under the financial demands of socialized medicine). I do think some "safety net" style program is in order but I would not support a full on socialized system.
The closest thing we have to government health care right now is medicaid and it pays pretty crappy. I get less per hour by insurance to manage a critically ill child than my plumber does to fix my pipes! (However, hospital medicine is a complex shell game where higher earning depts support the ones that do not make as much money so I end up OK.) As a result of this crappy pay it's hard to find a physician who actually accepts medicaid outside of nonprofit hospitals.
There is hypocrisy on BOTH sides of the healthcare debate. Those on the left have the unrealistic expectation that EVERYONE can have the same level of health care and it all be paid for with public money. Also those on the left could have doctors in their pocket if they just address medical malpractice. However, thanks to lobbying that will never happen. Those on the right scream about anyone getting a handout from healthcare yet you mention about restricting Medicare (even though we all "pay in" we all get a lot more out of it) and the Tea Party riots faster than you can say Death Panel. Also, those on the right need to realize that while indigent folks can get care in an ER we are all paying for this anyway so we might as well have some safety net. i.e. if a poor person with no insurance goes to the ED and gets a $1000 bill and does not pay. The hospital just eats it and passes it along. Also, everyone voted in Medicare Part D which while it's great that it gives drug bennies to seniors. We are paying full prices for drugs that we could have negotiated better rates.
Here's what I think would work (but NO ONE would agree to). A basic barebones health care plan for all funded by the government. This would provide basic well care (pretty cheap) and access to generic drugs (which can treat most things). There would be rationing. No heroic end of life care would be covered (but palliative care most definitely would be). i.e no $40,000 prostate cancer drug that extends your life by 3 months. I repeat there would be rationing. If you want more than this then you get your own insurance.
As far as the poor:
I think there are a lot more people than we know of who milk the system. I work in a hospital that is primarily medicaid. If you are on medicaid (i.e. we the taxpayers are funding your healthcare) you should not have an: iPad, iPod, iPhone, air Jordans, Louis Vitton bag, Bugaboo stroller, etc, etc, etc. Some of these folks are not so well off and not making good choices with their money. Others are in cash businesses and are committing fraud. I also think if you're working hard near the bottom (i.e. you work 3 jobs to barely get by) it's easier to give up and just take the hand out. That to me is a big problem.
For the rich:
We can rail at the banksters making tons of money. However, I know that for me to make $100,000 in my retirement accounts someone managing the fund needs to make $1,000,000. I think what's key to remember is that unless you have zero money invested in any 529 or retirement funds you are part of wall street and benefit from it's success.
For taxing the companies:
There was a good 60 minute episode about companies such as Google and Cisco that maintain a small enough presence off shore to keep their focus of operations there and avoid taxes. All perfectly legal and out in the open. Unfortunately, as long as other countries offer lower tax rates to companies they will go there. We need to be competitive in the global market place. We need to realize that companies are only beholden to the stockholders (and we are the stockholders) and they are not trying to be nice or play fair. We could say f u to these companies, raise the taxes and drive them out. Or we could try lowering the taxes to lure them in.
On taxing us the people:
Personally, I like the idea of the Fair Tax. Where I get my money up front and am taxed when I spend it.
I think that's enough of a rant for now....
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| Posted 10/19/11 8:27 PM |
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Little-J-Mommy
I'm a Big Brother
Member since 5/06 8041 total posts
Name:
D
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Re: On the subject of Occupy Wall St...
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| Posted 10/19/11 11:50 PM |
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Re: On the subject of Occupy Wall St...
Posted by Little-J-Mommy
IMAGE
YES!!!
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| Posted 10/20/11 12:06 AM |
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emilylives
biking
Member since 12/09 2163 total posts
Name:
Emily
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Re: On the subject of Occupy Wall St...
Posted by Little-J-Mommy
IMAGE
wonderfully put.
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| Posted 10/20/11 12:06 AM |
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sunnyflies
LIF Adult
Member since 9/09 1757 total posts
Name:
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Re: On the subject of Occupy Wall St...
Posted by emilylives
Posted by Little-J-Mommy
IMAGE
wonderfully put.
Thank you! 
May the words of your post go to the hearts and minds of those who don't yet understand!
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| Posted 10/20/11 1:13 AM |
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MrsKS
Thank You St. Gerard.....
Member since 12/09 8306 total posts
Name:
Kerri
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Re: On the subject of Occupy Wall St...
Posted by sunnyflies
Posted by emilylives
Posted by Little-J-Mommy
IMAGE
wonderfully put.
Thank you!
May the words of your post go to the hearts and minds of those who don't yet understand!
I haven't seen this one yet. I very much like it.
This post is crazy long!! I can't even keep up.
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| Posted 10/20/11 1:34 AM |
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BriBri2u
L'amore vince sempre
Member since 5/05 9320 total posts
Name:
Mrs. B
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Re: On the subject of Occupy Wall St...
Posted by Little-J-Mommy
IMAGE
100% THIS!!!
Maybe NOW people will get it. I just can't understand how people don't 
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| Posted 10/20/11 9:27 AM |
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tara73
carseat nerd
Member since 11/09 3669 total posts
Name:
Buttercup
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Re: On the subject of Occupy Wall St...
Posted by Little-J-Mommy
IMAGE
THANK YOU for posting this
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| Posted 10/20/11 9:35 AM |
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JenniferEver
The Disney Lady
Member since 5/05 18163 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: On the subject of Occupy Wall St...
Posted by Little-J-Mommy
IMAGE
THIS!
That's the whole point
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| Posted 10/20/11 10:06 AM |
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mamabear
LIF Adult
Member since 3/08 4539 total posts
Name:
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Re: On the subject of Occupy Wall St...
Posted by JenniferEver
Posted by Little-J-Mommy
IMAGE
THIS!
That's the whole point
YES! I agree. It is so sad. That other post about what percent are you...i think almost everyone said wow, it doesn't feel like it. I am so right there. I think things have spiraled out of control for our country. I really could not make more money and have any sort of life. I worked hard to get here. My parents worked hard for me to get here. I still feel guilty if I go out to dinner, because we don't have extra cash. I am not currently able to put away extra money into savings. In the past few months, I've had to dip into my savings month after month for necessary house repairs (not remodeling type--necessary ones for the house to function.) I don't have the newest tech items for the most part. We have 2 inexpensive laptops, and 2 tvs that are about 4 years old. We have one leased car--nothing fancy, and 1 used car--a minivan. I rarely buy myself clothes, and when I do, they're from target, tj maxx, century 21. I buy my kids clothes from similar places, though i buy them more frequently. We haven't been on a vacation since 2009, and before that, it was one vacation per year. Something is wrong when people with steady jobs and a high income are having trouble just getting by and can't save for the future or for emergencies.
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| Posted 10/20/11 10:19 AM |
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dpli
Daylight savings :)
Member since 5/05 13973 total posts
Name:
D
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Re: On the subject of Occupy Wall St...
Posted by Little-J-Mommy
IMAGE
Amen.
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| Posted 10/20/11 10:48 AM |
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Little-J-Mommy
I'm a Big Brother
Member since 5/06 8041 total posts
Name:
D
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Re: On the subject of Occupy Wall St...
I'm really glad this pic was well received. I had the same gut reaction, like YES! this is what I'm thinking too. I was nervous to bump the thread but I felt the message was too important not to share
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| Posted 10/20/11 11:22 AM |
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