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WhatNow
Say Cheese!
Member since 1/06 8033 total posts
Name:
A (formerly WhatNow?)
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Unfortunately, this is way past the question of deserving the land.
As Bxgell and Shelly explained, the muslim world, and Hamas in particular is questioning Israel's right to existence. Their goal is the destruction of the Jewish state and Jewish people! If it was all about the land, this would have been over a long time ago, as Israeli gave up lands in order to restore peace, much to the distaste of the Israeli people...
This conflict is so much more that just Israel vs. Hamas. The whole world is stake here as terrorism has long ago taken over Europe and USA...
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Posted 12/30/08 11:37 AM  |
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MrsR
My love.
Member since 5/05 6247 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Ophelia
you really didn't have to make that clear from my benefit. I thought I made it clear that I DON"T AGREE with HAMAS or ANY terrorist organization.
I wasn't making it clear for your benefit, but for op's or anyone else reading the post that is trying to understand the conflict.
I'm curious though - since you have such strong opinions on it...Have you ever been to the middle east?
(this is not a confrontational question, I am sincerely wondering).
No one ever said that Israel is inocent of everything...but can you imagine living in new jersey for example, and the rest of the us and canada and mexico all have their bombs aimed at you - and not just want the land back, but want to annihilate you as a people? Not so sure you would always play by the rules either. The main difference here is that Israel is not a terrorist state, run by a terrorist government like pretty much all the countries surrounding them. They might be some israelis that are fanatical about israel- but they dont go blowing themselves up or planting car bombs.
Message edited 12/30/2008 11:40:12 AM.
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| Posted 12/30/08 11:37 AM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by MrsR
Posted by Ophelia
you really didn't have to make that clear from my benefit. I thought I made it clear that I DON"T AGREE with HAMAS or ANY terrorist organization.
I wasn't making it clear for your benefit, but for op's or anyone else reading the post that is trying to understand the conflict.
I'm curious though - since you have such strong opinions on it...Have you ever been to the middle east?
(this is not a confrontational question, I am sincerely wondering).
No one ever said that Israel is inocent of everything...but can you imagine living in new jersey for example, and the rest of the us and canada and mexico all have their bombs aimed at you - and not just want the land back, but want to annihilate you as a people? Not so sure you would always play by the rules either.
no I have not been to the middle east.
where my opinions are strong is where people are KILLING each other.
I do not mean to insinuate that the every day Israeli or Muslim or Arab that lives in the area do no coexist peaceful.
my comments are aimed DIRECTLY at both GOVERNMENTS.
and Beth, I must humbly and respectfully say that there is NEVER a reason to essentially imprison an entire populace. surely you can see how that in and of itself can beget an intense amount of anger...and as Yoda so wisely said...it all leads to the dark side.
I will say again that I am vehemently against extremism in all of its forms. on my own soil as well as anywhere else in the world.
since I don't claim to be an "expert" on the subject, I don't think I need to travel there to have a general sense of what is right. I don't have to travel to the Sudan to know that what is happeneing there is WRONG in it's most basic sense....I think you get the idea.
I think it is AWFUL...just AWFUL that anyone one people would seek to annhiliate the other. and I don't want what I am saying to diminish that.
but having 100% of a population suffer for what 10% of it are doing is fundamentally wrong.
if we wouldn't allow it to happen HERE, we shouldn't condone it elsewhere. 
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| Posted 12/30/08 11:46 AM |
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Bxgell2
Perfection
Member since 5/05 16438 total posts
Name:
Beth
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by KPtoys
Posted by wannabemom
wow, this thread has some serious potential 
Not my intention at all. I hope it doesn't live up to its full potential!! I just didn't understand that they had a cease fire. People weren't being killed and they let it expire and BAM the killing begins again. I just thought the cease fire was a good thing. Back to my little sunshine world where everyone is happy I guess.
Actually the cease fire was brokered by Egypt to foster peace talks. It was scheduled to have an end date - it's not entirely accurate that people weren't being killed during the ceasefire. All throughout Hamas was directing missiles to Southern Israel, and there were several injuries and fatalities. At the end of the cease fire, Israel asked to extend it, despite Hamas' repeated attacks, but Hamas refused, and started a more rigorous attack on Southern Israel. That's when Israel retaliated with air strikes on Gaza.
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| Posted 12/30/08 11:49 AM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by MrsR
They might be some israelis that are fanatical about israel- but they dont go blowing themselves up or planting car bombs.
just to play devils advocate, imagine you are a people, sent to live in internment camps, not allowed to have a military to protect your people...and feel you have no other recourse than to strap explosives to you and blow yourself up.
I cannot imagine feeling that kind of desperateness about my plight.
perhaps the fact that I am neither Israeli nor Arab nor muslim nor Jewish makes a difference in how I view things.
again, the plight of the civilians on both sides gets my utmost sympathy. NO ONE should have to worry about being blown up when they go to market.
and NO ONE should think that blowing themselves up is the only way they can be heard.
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| Posted 12/30/08 11:50 AM |
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MrsR
My love.
Member since 5/05 6247 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
what the 10% are doing - is hurting their own people - not just Israelis. They are hurting the world. They put their civilians in the line of fire.
I understand what you are saying about not having to be somewhere to know what is right or wrong, but I think if you went to Israel your opinion might change a little, or a lot for that matter. Maybe it would give you a better understand of what is ACTUALLY happening and not what you hear or see on TV.
I don't believe in war, or killings as a solution either - but what IS the solution? You cannot ration with irrational people, there is no "talking it out" and the Israeli government owes it to their citizens to protect them.
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| Posted 12/30/08 11:52 AM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by MrsR
Maybe it would give you a better understand of what is ACTUALLY happening and not what you hear or see on TV.
I think this statement is a little unfair, but I will leave it at that.
I am sorry for all of the carnage this war has sowed. May God and Allah bless them all. 
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| Posted 12/30/08 11:54 AM |
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MrsR
My love.
Member since 5/05 6247 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by MrsR
Maybe it would give you a better understand of what is ACTUALLY happening and not what you hear or see on TV.
I think this statement is a little unfair, but I will leave it at that.
I am sorry for all of the carnage this war has sowed. May God and Allah bless them all.
I dont think it is unfair. The first time I went, I was shocked. Israel was NOTHING like I expected. It is totally different then what the media makes it out to be. I don't know how that can be an unfair statement?
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| Posted 12/30/08 11:58 AM |
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casey31
Mommy of 3!
Member since 5/05 2967 total posts
Name:
Mommy to two boys and a girl
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by MrsR
They might be some israelis that are fanatical about israel- but they dont go blowing themselves up or planting car bombs.
just to play devils advocate, imagine you are a people, sent to live in internment camps, not allowed to have a military to protect your people...and feel you have no other recourse than to strap explosives to you and blow yourself up.
I cannot imagine feeling that kind of desperateness about my plight.
perhaps the fact that I am neither Israeli nor Arab nor muslim nor Jewish makes a difference in how I view things.
again, the plight of the civilians on both sides gets my utmost sympathy. NO ONE should have to worry about being blown up when they go to market.
and NO ONE should think that blowing themselves up is the only way they can be heard.
The Palestinians had a very better existense under Israeli occupation- electricity, clean water etc. that they did not have when they were living under Jordanian/Egyptian occupation.
Also, Israel never wanted control of these areas- she had to take control to secure her own existense against the crazy terrorism. In 1948 the UN partioned palestiine and Israel agreed to her small piece. However, the Arabs wouldn't agree and attacked her, again and again over the years. So, she has occupied these territories for safety.
Any deperation that these "martyrs" have is of their own doing, NOT ISRAELS. Quite frankly, blowing yourself up in restaurants is NEVER justified- EVER.
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:00 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by MrsR
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by MrsR
Maybe it would give you a better understand of what is ACTUALLY happening and not what you hear or see on TV.
I think this statement is a little unfair, but I will leave it at that.
I am sorry for all of the carnage this war has sowed. May God and Allah bless them all.
I dont think it is unfair. The first time I went, I was shocked. Israel was NOTHING like I expected. It is totally different then what the media makes it out to be. I don't know how that can be an unfair statement?
b/c you have NO IDEA of how I formed my opinions, where I received my information, and where the media fits into my life.
THAT is why it is unfair. the end.
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:01 PM |
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MrsR
My love.
Member since 5/05 6247 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by MrsR
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by MrsR
Maybe it would give you a better understand of what is ACTUALLY happening and not what you hear or see on TV.
I think this statement is a little unfair, but I will leave it at that.
I am sorry for all of the carnage this war has sowed. May God and Allah bless them all.
I dont think it is unfair. The first time I went, I was shocked. Israel was NOTHING like I expected. It is totally different then what the media makes it out to be. I don't know how that can be an unfair statement?
b/c you have NO IDEA of how I formed my opinions, where I received my information, and where the media fits into my life.
THAT is why it is unfair. the end.
No, I dont know how you formed your opinions...it wasn't meant as a personal attack on you. It was simple comment sharing my experience of how different things are in the middle east than I thought and how it changed a lot of my perspective.
The End.
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:03 PM |
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MrsR
My love.
Member since 5/05 6247 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Ophelia
just to play devils advocate, imagine you are a people, sent to live in internment camps, not allowed to have a military to protect your people...and feel you have no other recourse than to strap explosives to you and blow yourself up.
I'm sorry - I see it very differently, If you are prepared to blow yourself up, you are a terrorist. It's that simple.
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:04 PM |
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MrsR
My love.
Member since 5/05 6247 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
The irony is that this whole thread really exemplifies why the conflict will never be resolved. Everyone has their own, different, and strong opinion and there is no way that one resolution is going to make all parties happy.
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:15 PM |
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Bxgell2
Perfection
Member since 5/05 16438 total posts
Name:
Beth
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by MrsR
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by MrsR
Maybe it would give you a better understand of what is ACTUALLY happening and not what you hear or see on TV.
I think this statement is a little unfair, but I will leave it at that.
I am sorry for all of the carnage this war has sowed. May God and Allah bless them all.
I dont think it is unfair. The first time I went, I was shocked. Israel was NOTHING like I expected. It is totally different then what the media makes it out to be. I don't know how that can be an unfair statement?
Agreed - it isn't until you spend some time in Israel that you see that the media really skews its portrayal of it. I don't say this because my husband is Israeli or because I have family there - it really was an altering experience for me the first time I visited.
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:16 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Bxgell2
Agreed - it isn't until you spend some time in Israel that you see that the media really skews its portrayal of it. I don't say this because my husband is Israeli or because I have family there - it really was an altering experience for me the first time I visited.
this whole "media" thing is starting to grate on me.
rest assured I don't use the "media" to inform my opinions.
and while I do not rule out getting a better understanding of a place by visiting it (that goes without saying) I don't think it would change how I feel on a fundamental level about certain things.
again, my heart goes out to the PEOPLE on both sides that have to live everyday with hate and fear in their faces. it is the GOVTs I take issue with.
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:20 PM |
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MrsR
My love.
Member since 5/05 6247 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
If you aren't getting your info about Israel or Hamas from the media...then where are you getting it from?
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:22 PM |
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Bxgell2
Perfection
Member since 5/05 16438 total posts
Name:
Beth
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by casey31
The Palestinians had a very better existense under Israeli occupation- electricity, clean water etc. that they did not have when they were living under Jordanian/Egyptian occupation.
This is very true - do a little research and you will see that the palestinians are treated very well in Israel, as equal citizens, but for participation in the army. In fact, palestinians are allowed to vote, and many palestinians have held seats in the government.
The true issue lies in the occupied areas - and even there, in the refugee camps, the conditions are still better than they were under the Jordanian/Egyptian occupation. Mind you, too, Israel does not force anyone to live in these camps - but they do have severe restrictions on palestinians living in the Gaza areas from entering Israel, for obvious security reasons.
The difference being that the restrictions on the palestininans in the ouccupied territories is not a result of hatred or discrimination, which is evidenced by the fact that hundreds of thousands of arabs and palestinians live peacefully, with equal rights, in most of Israel. The same cannot be said for the Hamas government which calls for the complete annihilation of Israel and the jewish people - the source of their actions IS discrimination and hatred.
The reason for the inquity, specifically in the occupied areas is because this is where the Hamas organization is centered, and this is where 90% of the terrorist activity originates. Combine that with the fact that every other nation that borders Israel is hostile to Israel and has attacked it on numerous occasions - to secure the safety of its citizens, Israel had to occupy Gaza and restrain the terrorism.
Keep in mind too, in recent years, to negotiate peace, Israel gave back 90% of the land, and the assaults against Israel continued - so at this point, there doesn't really seem to be any other solution to maintaining the safety of its citizens other than to maintain a very strong hold over its borders. At least, not until the relentless terrorist attacks stop.
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:24 PM |
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casey31
Mommy of 3!
Member since 5/05 2967 total posts
Name:
Mommy to two boys and a girl
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Ophelia
[. it is the GOVTs I take issue with.
I'm sorry- but I cannot see how you can even compare the Israeli gov't with the Hamas "government"
Israel is a democratic nation that is trying to find a peaceful resolution (while maintaining her own security)- Hamas is a terrorist organization whose sole purpose has been to destroy Isreal and kill civilians.
Message edited 12/30/2008 12:36:04 PM.
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:34 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Bxgell2
The true issue lies in the occupied areas - and even there, in the refugee camps, the conditions are still better than they were under the Jordanian/Egyptian occupation. Mind you, too, Israel does not force anyone to live in these camps - but they do have severe restrictions on palestinians living in the Gaza areas from entering Israel, for obvious security reasons.
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Beth, I personally know people who have LIVED in these camps, and their view is different.
I feel it is a moot point to continue arguing.
I am surprised honestly that you, who is so involved in civil rights here, can defend the settlements...but I am sure you have your reasons and it seems justifiable to you.
I am starting to think I am typing with invisible ink, so I will say again, lest I continue to be misconstrued or mispresenting of myself...that I feel terribly for the Israeli people and the Palestian people that have been so deeply affected by this conflict.
I hope that Hamas is eventually defeated and stripped of it's power.
I hope two of these many people who co exist peacefully take the helm of each "nation" (Israel and Palestine) and work together to quell hatred and fear and bring some semblance of peace to the area...or in the very least, bring some understanding and a cessation of violence.
this is not the only area of the world to suffer terrorism in the name of religion...hopefully the Irish can actually be an example for once (I kid, I kid).
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:35 PM |
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seaside
LIF Adult
Member since 6/08 3101 total posts
Name:
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by casey31
Posted by Ophelia
[. it is the GOVTs I take issue with.
I'm sorry- but I cannot see how you can even compare the Israeli gov't with the Hamas "government"
Israel is a democratic nation that is trying to find a peaceful resolution (while maintaining her own security)- Hamas is a terrorist organization whose sole purpose has been to destroy Isreal and kill civilians.
ITA, and I can't comprehend comparing the Gaza Strip to a Holocaust concentration camp in any way, shape, or form.
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:36 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by casey31
Posted by Ophelia
[. it is the GOVTs I take issue with.
I'm sorry- but I cannot see how you can even compare the Israeli gov't with the Hamas "government"
Israel is a democratic nation that is trying to find a peaceful resolution (while maintaining her own security)- Hamas is a terrorist organization whose sole purpose has been to destroy Isreal and kill civilians.
I did not in any way shape or form make a comparison of the two.
you are not reading my words or interpretting them correctly, so please refrain from discussion with me as it will go no where.
thank you
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:37 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by seaside
Posted by casey31
Posted by Ophelia
[. it is the GOVTs I take issue with.
I'm sorry- but I cannot see how you can even compare the Israeli gov't with the Hamas "government"
Israel is a democratic nation that is trying to find a peaceful resolution (while maintaining her own security)- Hamas is a terrorist organization whose sole purpose has been to destroy Isreal and kill civilians.
ITA, and I can't comprehend comparing the Gaza Strip to a Holocaust concentration camp in any way, shape, or form.
I did NOT do that EITHER. AT ALL. I compared them to INTERNMENT CAMPS.
please read and understand me correctly.
I HAVE BEEN to a concentration camp. I have born WITNESS to the atrocities commited there.
I am actually flabbergasted. truly. 
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:38 PM |
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seaside
LIF Adult
Member since 6/08 3101 total posts
Name:
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
I am sorry if I misunderstood you (truly), but to note irony in Israel's presence in the Gaza strip and to emphasize the word camps the way you did is to analogize the two on some level, even ifyou did not mean to.
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:40 PM |
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MrsR
My love.
Member since 5/05 6247 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Ophelia, even though I disagree with some of your statements - I am totally with you when it comes to the fact that I don't condone or enjoy violence of any kind, even though at times I believe it necessary to protect the israelis, and jews. And I also would like to see a resolution in our lifetime. Israel is such a special, sacred place to so many people. It's a shame that religion might actually ruin the place in which it was born.
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:40 PM |
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Bxgell2
Perfection
Member since 5/05 16438 total posts
Name:
Beth
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Ophelia
I am surprised honestly that you, who is so involved in civil rights here, can defend the settlements...but I am sure you have your reasons and it seems justifiable to you.
Low blow Ophelia. It's not as simply as you make it out to be, and it's not a clear cut case of a civil rights violation just because you believe it to be. My reasons have been explained to you - the palestinians who live in these camps are not forced to live there. Rather, they ARE forced to live with severe restrictions in and out of Israel, which makes for some dire living conditions, as it is difficult to find employment elsewhere like in Jordan, Syria and Egypt. I see no other way for Israel - it has lifted the restrictions and given back the land, only to suffer through more and more and more terroristic assaults, which is inflicted by the government that THEY have chosen.
The only solution I see is for the people in the occupied areas to CHOOSE a different government, one that is not based on a theory of annihilation, terrorism and hatred, and one that is seriously open to peace talks and to peaceful cohabitation. The Israeli government has always been open to this idea, but every single time it makes an attempt, the terrorism continues. It is the Hamas government which refuses, asserting that Israel has no right to exist.
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:43 PM |
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