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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by seaside
I am sorry if I misunderstood you (truly), but to note irony in Israel's presence in the Gaza strip and to emphasize the word camps the way you did is to analogize the two on some level, even ifyou did not mean to. 
on a whole, after the atrocoties of WWII and the incredible infringement on basic human rights all around, i DO thinks it's incredible that we as a race could think that anything resembling an internment camp or a camp of any kind is ok.
my emphasis is based on the idea that I would think that Jews anywhere could find them ok, considering what they went through in WWII.
so I wasn't comparing them in form or function at all...but just the basic idea of subjugating a people based on anything, including fear.
I would NEVER EVER mean to insinuate otherwise. going to Dachau was one of the most haunting things I have every experienced....and I visited Hiroshima as well.
how we could do that to one another is beyond me. 
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Posted 12/30/08 12:46 PM  |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Bxgell2
Posted by Ophelia
I am surprised honestly that you, who is so involved in civil rights here, can defend the settlements...but I am sure you have your reasons and it seems justifiable to you.
Low blow Ophelia.
I really did not intend it to be a low blow at all. I apologize for that.
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:47 PM |
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Bxgell2
Perfection
Member since 5/05 16438 total posts
Name:
Beth
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by seaside
I am sorry if I misunderstood you (truly), but to note irony in Israel's presence in the Gaza strip and to emphasize the word camps the way you did is to analogize the two on some level, even ifyou did not mean to.
on a whole, after the atrocoties of WWII and the incredible infringement on basic human rights all around, i DO thinks it's incredible that we as a race could think that anything resembling an internment camp or a camp of any kind is ok.
my emphasis is based on the idea that I would think that Jews anywhere could find them ok, considering what they went through in WWII.
so I wasn't comparing them in form or function at all...but just the basic idea of subjugating a people based on anything, including fear.
I would NEVER EVER mean to insinuate otherwise. going to Dachau was one of the most haunting things I have every experienced....and I visited Hiroshima as well.
how we could do that to one another is beyond me.
First, I have to say, I never saw any analogy between the refugee camps and holocaust camps - I think the misunderstanding comes from the fact that both, unfortunately, reference "camps".
Second, I think the reason why you and I are butting heads, Ophelia, is that I don't believe the existence of the refugee camps means that jews condone them.
These refugee camps were created long before Israel took over the Gaza strip - Israel inherited them, and in fact, they improved conditions for the displaced palestinians living there by building roads, plumbing, septic systems, electrical systems, schools, etc..
These are not holocaust camps - these are refugee camps for displaced palestinians from the many, many wars that have taken place in Israel since its inception.
Conditions have deteriorated, however, because, as with many populations that experience dire economic conditions, the area has fallen to Hamas rule. Hamas is a terrorist organization whose goal is the annihilation of Israel and jews. Most of the terroristic activities are launched from these areas, so, Israel, to defend itself against terrorist infiltrations into marketplaces, schools, cafe's, buses, etc, placed severe restrictions on gaza occupants from entering Israel. Thus, they have no way of making a living, and thus no money.
It is not a choice, however. Israel is doing what it can to ameliorate the conditions, while protecting its citizens.
I understand the situation is sad, as innocent victims are experiencing very harsh conditions. Unfortunately however, a large part of that is because they have chosen a government that forces Israel's hand to act aggressively in these areas.
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:58 PM |
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Bxgell2
Perfection
Member since 5/05 16438 total posts
Name:
Beth
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by Bxgell2
Posted by Ophelia
I am surprised honestly that you, who is so involved in civil rights here, can defend the settlements...but I am sure you have your reasons and it seems justifiable to you.
Low blow Ophelia.
I really did not intend it to be a low blow at all. I apologize for that.
No harm, no foul. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
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| Posted 12/30/08 12:59 PM |
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wannabemom
look who's freshly baked!
Member since 12/07 7364 total posts
Name:
aka marriedinportjeff
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
did I call it or what 
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| Posted 12/30/08 1:18 PM |
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casey31
Mommy of 3!
Member since 5/05 2967 total posts
Name:
Mommy to two boys and a girl
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Bxgell2
First, I have to say, I never saw any analogy between the refugee camps and holocaust camps - I think the misunderstanding comes from the fact that both, unfortunately, reference "camps".
Second, I think the reason why you and I are butting heads, Ophelia, is that I don't believe the existence of the refugee camps means that jews condone them.
These refugee camps were created long before Israel took over the Gaza strip - Israel inherited them, and in fact, they improved conditions for the displaced palestinians living there by building roads, plumbing, septic systems, electrical systems, schools, etc..
These are not holocaust camps - these are refugee camps for displaced palestinians from the many, many wars that have taken place in Israel since its inception.
Conditions have deteriorated, however, because, as with many populations that experience dire economic conditions, the area has fallen to Hamas rule. Hamas is a terrorist organization whose goal is the annihilation of Israel and jews. Most of the terroristic activities are launched from these areas, so, Israel, to defend itself against terrorist infiltrations into marketplaces, schools, cafe's, buses, etc, placed severe restrictions on gaza occupants from entering Israel. Thus, they have no way of making a living, and thus no money.
It is not a choice, however. Israel is doing what it can to ameliorate the conditions, while protecting its citizens.
I understand the situation is sad, as innocent victims are experiencing very harsh conditions. Unfortunately however, a large part of that is because they have chosen a government that forces Israel's hand to act aggressively in these areas.
I agree with everything you have written- I wish I could have written this as well. 
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| Posted 12/30/08 2:11 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by wannabemom
did I call it or what
we must have lowered our standards on what "drama" is then 
and  to all.
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| Posted 12/30/08 2:25 PM |
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seaside
LIF Adult
Member since 6/08 3101 total posts
Name:
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Seriously. It's nice to see that comes out for intelligent debate and eduction. Much better then for drama mongering. 
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| Posted 12/30/08 2:42 PM |
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Bxgell2
Perfection
Member since 5/05 16438 total posts
Name:
Beth
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Nah, that wasn't even CLOSE to drama. I like these threads - gives me an opportunity to preach... ur... educate 
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| Posted 12/30/08 3:14 PM |
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Shelly
She's 7!!!
Member since 8/05 14624 total posts
Name:
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Just so you know, its not just 10% of people that wish for the destruction of Israel. The Palestinians ELECTED HAMAS. Of several government options, the Palestinians ELECTED a terrorist organization who does not recognize the right of Israel to exist.
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| Posted 12/30/08 8:36 PM |
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Little-J-Mommy
I'm a Big Brother
Member since 5/06 8041 total posts
Name:
D
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Bxgell2
Nah, that wasn't even CLOSE to drama. I like these threads - gives me an opportunity to preach... ur... educate
I actually appreciate the education on this. DH was just trying to explain to me what was happening there and I clicked on this thread. Unfortunately, it sounds all too familiar to what the Turks did to the Armenians (but who remembers us, right )
I the fighting stops and people just leave each other alone to live their lives
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| Posted 12/30/08 10:48 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Shelly
Just so you know, its not just 10% of people that wish for the destruction of Israel. The Palestinians ELECTED HAMAS. Of several government options, the Palestinians ELECTED a terrorist organization who does not recognize the right of Israel to exist.
this country also elected George Bush...does he stand for everything YOU do?
I can tell you he doesn't represent ME very well.
I understand you guys have ties to Israel. I hope your families are well.
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| Posted 12/31/08 9:50 AM |
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azoodie
Member since 8/05 8377 total posts
Name:
Team SEXY BACK
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Little-J-Mommy
Unfortunately, it sounds all too familiar to what the Turks did to the Armenians (but who remembers us, right )
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| Posted 12/31/08 11:01 AM |
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Shelly
She's 7!!!
Member since 8/05 14624 total posts
Name:
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by Shelly
Just so you know, its not just 10% of people that wish for the destruction of Israel. The Palestinians ELECTED HAMAS. Of several government options, the Palestinians ELECTED a terrorist organization who does not recognize the right of Israel to exist.
this country also elected George Bush...does he stand for everything YOU do?
No. George Bush doesn't stand for everything I do. But, since he was elected (at least the second time), he does stand for what the majority of America believes in.
You are also are not talking about an individual here. You are talking about a political party that swept parliamentry elections. Hamas was elected to over 70 seats in Parliament.
So yes, I would say that based on the election of Hamas to 70 seats of Parliament (over half), that the majority of the voters do beleive in the same ideologies of Hamas- the call for the destruction of the state of Israel.
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| Posted 12/31/08 11:07 AM |
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BunnyWife
Insert Witty Comment Here
Member since 5/07 8274 total posts
Name:
BunnyWife
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by azoodie
Posted by Little-J-Mommy
Unfortunately, it sounds all too familiar to what the Turks did to the Armenians (but who remembers us, right )
Horrible. And the Turks will never admit that it even happened. Crazy.
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| Posted 12/31/08 11:15 AM |
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Bxgell2
Perfection
Member since 5/05 16438 total posts
Name:
Beth
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by Shelly
Just so you know, its not just 10% of people that wish for the destruction of Israel. The Palestinians ELECTED HAMAS. Of several government options, the Palestinians ELECTED a terrorist organization who does not recognize the right of Israel to exist.
this country also elected George Bush...does he stand for everything YOU do?
I can tell you he doesn't represent ME very well.
I understand you guys have ties to Israel. I hope your families are well.
That's a bit of a stretch Ophelia - while many of us may disagree with his political views and actions, it is wholly another issue when a political figure, or entire government, proposes and supports the complete annihilation of an entire country and group of people, based entirely on their religious and cultural background.
Message edited 12/31/2008 11:17:43 AM.
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| Posted 12/31/08 11:17 AM |
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BunnyWife
Insert Witty Comment Here
Member since 5/07 8274 total posts
Name:
BunnyWife
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Bxgell2
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by Shelly
Just so you know, its not just 10% of people that wish for the destruction of Israel. The Palestinians ELECTED HAMAS. Of several government options, the Palestinians ELECTED a terrorist organization who does not recognize the right of Israel to exist.
this country also elected George Bush...does he stand for everything YOU do?
I can tell you he doesn't represent ME very well.
I understand you guys have ties to Israel. I hope your families are well.
That's a bit of a stretch Ophelia - while many of us may disagree with his political views and actions, it is wholly another issue when a political figure, or entire government, proposes and supports the complete annihilation of an entire country and group of people, based entirely on their religious and cultural background.
I honestly don't believe it is that black and white. This is an entire population that feels oppressed and unrepresented. From what I have read (from many different news sources) many of these people believe that Hammas would protect them and give them more of a voice. Make their lives easier and better. They felt like they were on their side. For a population that is lacking in many basic needs, making sure your children are eating and not being blown up is more important then demise of a country.
The whole thing is a ******* mess
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| Posted 12/31/08 11:25 AM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Bxgell2
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by Shelly
Just so you know, its not just 10% of people that wish for the destruction of Israel. The Palestinians ELECTED HAMAS. Of several government options, the Palestinians ELECTED a terrorist organization who does not recognize the right of Israel to exist.
this country also elected George Bush...does he stand for everything YOU do?
I can tell you he doesn't represent ME very well.
I understand you guys have ties to Israel. I hope your families are well.
That's a bit of a stretch Ophelia - while many of us may disagree with his political views and actions, it is wholly another issue when a political figure, or entire government, proposes and supports the complete annihilation of an entire country and group of people, based entirely on their religious and cultural background.
I guess I don't really see it as that much of a stretch. especially since at least part of the Bush Agenda was based on HIS religious beliefs.
I think it's unfair to make assumptions about what people believe based on the person that is running the govt I guess is my point.
there is a very strong Israeli bias on this thread, which as I said is fine and understandable...
I don't pretend to know what either side thinks and I won't. I just think it's unfair to heap the blame on any one side.
I hope this conflict is resolved as quickly as possible.
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| Posted 12/31/08 11:41 AM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by BunnyWife
I honestly don't believe it is that black and white. This is an entire population that feels oppressed and unrepresented. From what I have read (from many different news sources) many of these people believe that Hammas would protect them and give them more of a voice. Make their lives easier and better. They felt like they were on their side. For a population that is lacking in many basic needs, making sure your children are eating and not being blown up is more important then demise of a country.
The whole thing is a ******* mess
exactly. unfortunately conditions for the Palestinians make it all too easy for a group like Hamas...who advertises themselves as their saviours...who will help them, feed them etc....
I cannot imagine what it would be like to not have the food or money to feed my children. to have proper medical care when they are sick. what I would FEEL like...how ANGRY or FRUSTRATED I would be...how IMPOTENT I would feel.
just as much as I can't imagine what it would be like to worry about my child's safety when I sent them to market to buy these same provisions.
unfortunately I don't think it's getting through based on this discussion, but I feel EQUALLY for both sets of people, of civilians who suffer b/c of this.
I don't want that to get lost if it seems I am giving a voice to the group that lacks one in this forum.
Message edited 12/31/2008 11:47:19 AM.
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| Posted 12/31/08 11:46 AM |
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by wannabemom
did I call it or what
Not At all. Why can't people have a debate with great points without people throwing in these damn popcorn icons hoping it drums up drama? I think so far everyone had passionate points but not the drama you were looking for. Sorry, but the only thing you contributed to this argument was this.
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| Posted 12/31/08 12:03 PM |
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
I am torn on this. I was raised as a zionist and they can be extreme as well. I don't even want to repeat the things I was taught to think. I went to Israel as a little girl. I played with Arab children and Israeli children. I get sad when I think how all sides view this as holy land. And this is how they treat the land they love....
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| Posted 12/31/08 12:11 PM |
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pinkandblue
Our family is complete, maybe
Member since 9/05 32436 total posts
Name:
Stephanie
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
I am not very educated on this subject so thank you all for enlightening me what a terrible situation, I pray for everyone involved 
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| Posted 12/31/08 12:15 PM |
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Goldi0218
My miracles!
Member since 12/05 23902 total posts
Name:
Leslie
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
I think it is very clear what all sides are on this thread and its wonderful to have a forum in which to express it. Interpretation of each post is up to its interpreter and NOBODY can guess how someone else may see things - even something like TONE.
As for my personal opinion NOT based on anything I have read in the past two days, it is very simple.
The people of my faith have been persecuted from day one. It has been a CONSTANT fight over thousands of years to hold on to something that is so precious to those of us who still exist. We are very small in numbers.
The land is but a speck on the globe. I would give my eye-teeth to take a journey there one day to show my daughter why it is so important to fight for this "speck". Right now, as an American Jew I do not feel safe there. A few LIFers have been there and back rather safely, but I don't feel safe there. I may never have that dream fulfilled and that is damn sad. I would love for Abigail to forego the pomp and circumstance of an LI Bat Mitzvah and have it in Israel. I can feel my body welling up with tears of pride already - it is THAT important to me (and I would say her father as well).
It was the same feeling I had when she was named in shul last month as the Rabbi paraded up and down the aisles with family and friends (of all faiths) celebrating this incredible milestone - it was the beginning of her journey and her responsibility as a JEW. YES I said RESPONSIBILITY and that may not sit well with people - too bad. At the ripe old age of 8, I started my Jewish education (if you dont count nursery school). There was some indoctrination and much of it was boring as hell, but plenty of it wasn't. What I got when I left 5 years later, was a sense of commitment and obligation to perpetuate my faith as well as a serious love for a homeland I may never see.
May there be peace soon so my children can see it, plant trees there and pray safely.
I don't wish to argue. I just wished to share a passion.
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| Posted 12/31/08 12:37 PM |
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Bxgell2
Perfection
Member since 5/05 16438 total posts
Name:
Beth
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by Bxgell2
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by Shelly
Just so you know, its not just 10% of people that wish for the destruction of Israel. The Palestinians ELECTED HAMAS. Of several government options, the Palestinians ELECTED a terrorist organization who does not recognize the right of Israel to exist.
this country also elected George Bush...does he stand for everything YOU do?
I can tell you he doesn't represent ME very well.
I understand you guys have ties to Israel. I hope your families are well.
That's a bit of a stretch Ophelia - while many of us may disagree with his political views and actions, it is wholly another issue when a political figure, or entire government, proposes and supports the complete annihilation of an entire country and group of people, based entirely on their religious and cultural background.
I guess I don't really see it as that much of a stretch. especially since at least part of the Bush Agenda was based on HIS religious beliefs.
I think it's unfair to make assumptions about what people believe based on the person that is running the govt I guess is my point.
there is a very strong Israeli bias on this thread, which as I said is fine and understandable...
I don't pretend to know what either side thinks and I won't. I just think it's unfair to heap the blame on any one side.
I hope this conflict is resolved as quickly as possible.
I cannot speak for anyone else but myself, but my views do not come in any way, shape or form because I have an automatic bias for Israel. My views are a result of looking at the situation for what it is, looking at the facts, and deciding where I stand.
And I think you are wrong - there is something to be said for taking the middle line and looking at both sides, in many situations, especially political ones. But, the truth is, there are many situations in which it is fair to judge, and fair to blame one side more than another. To always follow the middle line, as a political ideology, and ensure that each side shares blame, will all too often glib over the very real facts. Not everything in life is fair, and not every situation requires that each side share in equal blame.
I am not saying that Israel has acted with innocence and purity of heart in each and every circumstance. But, given the history, and the sentiment directed at the country and the people, based SOLELY on religious and cultural ideologies, and the many, repeated efforts Israel has made to do whatever it can to appease Hamas and the Palenstinians, I simply cannot conclude that in this case, each side shares equally in the blame. I simply do not think that is a possible conclusion when you are comparing a democratic government whose actions are defensive to protect its citizens with a terrorist organization whose mission is discriminatory.
And that is not a bias for ANY country - that stems from my political view that political events involving terrorist organizations rarely involve equal blame.
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| Posted 12/31/08 12:39 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Bxgell2
I cannot speak for anyone else but myself, but my views do not come in any way, shape or form because I have an automatic bias for Israel. My views are a result of looking at the situation for what it is, looking at the facts, and deciding where I stand.
And I think you are wrong - there is something to be said for taking the middle line and looking at both sides, in many situations, especially political ones. But, the truth is, there are many situations in which it is fair to judge, and fair to blame one side more than another. To always follow the middle line, as a political ideology, and ensure that each side shares blame, will all too often glib over the very real facts. Not everything in life is fair, and not every situation requires that each side share in equal blame.
I am not saying that Israel has acted with innocence and purity of heart in each and every circumstance. But, given the history, and the sentiment directed at the country and the people, based SOLELY on religious and cultural ideologies, and the many, repeated efforts Israel has made to do whatever it can to appease Hamas and the Palenstinians, I simply cannot conclude that in this case, each side shares equally in the blame. I simply do not think that is a possible conclusion when you are comparing a democratic government whose actions are defensive to protect its citizens with a terrorist organization whose mission is discriminatory.
And that is not a bias for ANY country - that stems from my political view that political events involving terrorist organizations rarely involve equal blame.
perhaps I misspoke...what I meant was, that the thread is decidedly more pro Israel, justfied or not...it's an observation that cannot be denied.
and you are speaking in generalities in terms of a middle line...I am not. I did not say that one should "always" do anything as a political ideaology.
what I am saying is, right or wrong, I can SEE how a group like Hamas became strong...I can SEE where BOTH govts have failed it's people.
I have said time and again that I DO NOT agree with terrorism in ANY of it's forms...but I can see how a situation could deteriorate to a place where it seemed like a feasible response. I DO NOT AGREE with it, but I can SEE how it occurred. it's pure psychology.
I am sorry that Israel has so much hate pointed towards it. It makes no sense to me and I do not understand it.
Leslie, I too would love to go to the Holy Land. My savior himself was a Jew. I would LOVE to spend Christmas in Bethelem.
the land truly belongs to ALL of us.
something has to be done to save us from ourselves.
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| Posted 12/31/08 12:50 PM |
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