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dm24angel
Happiness
Member since 5/05 34581 total posts
Name:
Donna
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
Posted by MrsT
Although it's now pulled that thread was one of the most disgraceful threads I have seen since I began posting on any of the Bridal Planner Group chat boards.
50 shots were fired at those men with no return gun fire. Although it takes about 1 minute to discharge 31 rounds from a 9 mm handgun (trigger must be pulled since its not an automatic weapon) 1 minute is a LONG TIME to be caught in a hail of bullets.
Just because a man was out at 4 a.m. at a strip club with potential hookers on his wedding day does not mean he deserved to die - criminal record or not. His choice (or his friends choice) of bachelor party locations also does not make him a bad person. I realize that an officer was struck by a moving vehicle but even that does not make it okay to discharge 50 rounds into a moving car when there is no return fire. And even the NYPD stated that its against police policy to shoot at a moving vehicle when only the vehicle is being used as the weapon (no gun). People familiar with weapons (military mostly) fire several rounds then stop to assess the situation. I am sure the NYPD trains it's officers in a similar fashion.
As for the criminal histories of those involved, for some reason learning that a person has a criminal history always gets brought out after the police murder a person and that seems to calm people  And when the person has a stellar past and is college bound or something similar everyone is in an uproar. Why is the person with a criminal record cast aside as if that life is worthless Everyone makes mistakes in life.
The NYPD Rant blog is some of the most racist, unsupported information I have seen. I honestly hope that none of these bigots work in any of our communities although sadly I'm sure some of them do. DH has several friends - Black male friends - that are detectives for the NYPD and they have colleagues that share the views posted in that racist blog. DH's detective friends told him NOT to join the NYPD after he got out of the military because of racism and the blue wall of silence - which requires all officers to support the NYPD in all situations.
Blogs like that one are the reason I fear for the life of my husband, father, brother and other male relatives daily. My husband is stopped constantly simply because he is driving a Mercedes E 320.....presumably "too nice" so he must be a criminal since he also has dreadlocks. He is never ticketed and all the paperwork is always in order.
The perception that minorities commit the majority of crime in this country is a joke. I majored in criminal justice and studied all of this. Nobody ever mentions the number of times a non-minority is arrested but does not have to go through the system for whatever reason i.e., family member called in a favor, cop knew the person or the family and gave the person a pass, the person had no rap sheet so they get a pass (typically more than one pass since they did not get processed the first time), they are presumed innocent because they are not a minority etc.
Racial profiling is alive and well and we all have heard the stories of minorities being disproportionately stopped and searched. In one study of the NJ Turnpike it was found that while African Americans made up 13.5 percent of highway users and 15 percent of the speeders, they represented 35 percent of those stopped by police. My husband was stopped on the NJ Turnpike at least 20 times all by white officers and he was NEVER ticketed. DH was even stopped by the same officer twice in the same week and DH reminded him that he already was stopped that same week and DH told the officer all about the officers military duty stations since they had discussed it earlier in the week when DH was stopped. All of this since DH was driving his Mercedes CLK 430 and presumed to be a criminal.
Because of racial profiling minorities are more often processed and sentenced so of course the numbers are skewed. That does not mean minorites commit more crime it just means they are more often caught since minorites are always looked upon as a suspect. I know that I have personally been followed around a high end store or two (or 10) and as a suspect as if I were going to steal something. Meanwhile the real shoplifters are getting away with thousands in merchandise. I'm shocked that Winona Ryder was even processed for shoplifting - then again she is a celebrity so that was sensationalized.
There have been tons of studies on this and several by minorities who are so fair skinned that they are thought to be white. One very fair skinned Black man (saw this on t.v. recently) said he and another darker Black friend were stopped for a search while walking in their neighborhood late night. Not sure if there was even probable caused but the fair skinned man was not searched or handcuffed at all while his much darker friend was cuffed and questioned just for walking in their own neighborhood.
I'm amazed at all of this racial bias since I know several white men and women who were released without processing for various crimes including possession of cocaine. My own personal revelation came when my African American cousin was murdered at age 18 by a 17 year old WHITE kid (and former friend) who fled GA and came to NYC to only be arrested for trying to rob a woman at knifepoint. That incident did not make the paper though - at least not the NYC paper. And nobody ever mentioned the kid was white but had it been a minority criminal it would have been all over the news as "typical Black on Black crime".
The cops are the first stop in the system and if they are biased in arresting minorites more often then of course when the case gets to an ADA the person is more likely to be a minority - hence the numbers are skewed so it appears that minorites commit more crime when its just NOT TRUE.
The media perpetuates much of the racial bias in this country. It makes the paper more often when a crime is committed by a minority. It's front page news. Just like when a police officer does something heroic it's on page 6 at the bottom rather than front page news This entire situation is sad for all involved.
You summed it all up and did it in a much nicer way then I could. THank you.
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Posted 11/28/06 3:04 PM  |
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Long Island Weddings
Long Island's Largest Bridal Resource |
Eva Luna
Be kind...life's hard!
Member since 8/05 4750 total posts
Name:
God, bless & heal my DH, JenG's DH Rob & DebG
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
Posted by HollaGirl
Posted by Eva Luna
Posted by HollaGirl
I didnt say I didn't get what she wrote, just not getting the point. White people suck? ok, got it.
Is that what you got out of that?
That's so very sad. 
Sasha, are you going to keep berating me whenever I say something?
Kristen, I'm not berating you.
You're quoting me and I'm responding.
How is any of what I wrote berating?
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| Posted 11/28/06 3:05 PM |
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QuoteTheRaven424
22 Months?!!!!
Member since 5/05 13659 total posts
Name:
And If That Isn't A True Blue Miracle
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
brain...
can't....
process....
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| Posted 11/28/06 3:06 PM |
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
Posted by CaptainCharisma424
brain...
can't....
process....
which part?  
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| Posted 11/28/06 3:12 PM |
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HollaGirl
Merry Christmas !!!
Member since 10/06 3308 total posts
Name:
Kristen
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
Because all I got out of her post was sad. C'mon.
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| Posted 11/28/06 3:14 PM |
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QuoteTheRaven424
22 Months?!!!!
Member since 5/05 13659 total posts
Name:
And If That Isn't A True Blue Miracle
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
all of it 
in the word of ron simmons
DAMN!
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| Posted 11/28/06 3:14 PM |
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DRMom
Two in Blue
Member since 5/05 20223 total posts
Name:
Melissa
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
Posted by nixy
Posted by melijane
I have a word to say on profiling. I live in an area that many(who don't live there) would consider mixed or lower income. I grew up in Commack and never once did police do registratuion or inspection checks. Not ONCE!! I have lived on the border of Central Islip(Village of Islandia) for 3 years and have seen 15-20 of these checks on Old Nichols Road. My husband and I feel that because this is a "lower income" area that the police are specifically targeting these vehicles and drivers.
Maybe the reason that they do it in this area is not b/c the residents are lower income, but there is a higher incident of stolen cars? If all of these checks proved to be fruitless wouldn't the cops stop doing them?
I don't think it is generalizing to say that there is a higher incidence of crime in lower income areas, it is unfortunate, but it's true.
I think that sometimes we see what we want to see. And I think this applies to all sides of the debate.
But what do stolen cars have to do with registration and inspection? You mean they would catch someone stealing a car? This is usually during commuter time when people are returning home
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| Posted 11/28/06 3:17 PM |
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MrsERod
Praying for Everyone.
Member since 5/05 26170 total posts
Name:
MrsERod™®
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
*BAM*
*WHOMP*
*BOP*
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| Posted 11/28/06 3:18 PM |
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nixy
LIF Adult
Member since 9/06 1575 total posts
Name:
K
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
Posted by melijane
But what do stolen cars have to do with registration and inspection? You mean they would catch someone stealing a car? This is usually during commuter time when people are returning home
I mean catch someone in a stolen car... It could also just be a high traffic area...or maybe it is b/c people in that are don't register or get their cars inspected.....
I guess speaking more broadly, there could be another reason, other than income level, that searches are performed there. Why do you think the police would choose to do it in a lower income area as opposed to a more affluent area?
I really don't mean to pick on your post, I just think on a whole...we all make assumptions when in fact we don't really know...
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| Posted 11/28/06 3:30 PM |
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dm24angel
Happiness
Member since 5/05 34581 total posts
Name:
Donna
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
Posted by HollaGirl
Because all I got out of her post was sad. C'mon.
I think , and Im NOT being or trying to be mean or a smart *** at all...that you said all you got out of it was white people suck.
Im a white as white can be and I didnt hear any of that in the tone. So while we both may read into it different ways and thats whats makes us differerent.....your feelings were hurt about being called a racist...which I dont condone...BUT...I "think" comments like that kinda make people wonder why you would say that?
As a "white person"...It came off odd or harsh to even me...so I think you may feel your comments are innocent but arent coming acorss to others that way.
But like someone else said, we need to start showing respect for others opinions, so I am NOT saying your wrong in your thinking, Im just pointing out how it comes across to others
Message edited 11/28/2006 3:39:34 PM.
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| Posted 11/28/06 3:38 PM |
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JenniferEver
The Disney Lady
Member since 5/05 18163 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
Posted by dm24angel
Posted by HollaGirl
Because all I got out of her post was sad. C'mon.
I think , and Im NOT being or trying to be mean or a smart *** at all...that you said all you got out of it was white people suck.
Im a white as white can be and I didnt hear any of that in the tone. So while we both may read into it different ways and thats whats makes us differerent.....your feelings were hurt about being called a racist...which I dont condone...BUT...I "think" comments like that kinda make people wonder why you would say that?
As a "white person"...It came off odd or harsh to even me...so I think you may feel your comments are innocent but arent coming acorss to others that way.
OMG. I agree with Donna.
Look! In the sky! Flying pigs!
j/k
Message edited 11/28/2006 3:39:55 PM.
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| Posted 11/28/06 3:39 PM |
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MrsERod
Praying for Everyone.
Member since 5/05 26170 total posts
Name:
MrsERod™®
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
Posted by JenniferEver
OMG. I agree with Donna.
Look! In the sky! Flying pigs!
j/k
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| Posted 11/28/06 3:43 PM |
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Libragal07
Loving Summer.....
Member since 8/06 6636 total posts
Name:
Samantha aka Sammy Bones
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
Posted by MrsERod
Posted by JenniferEver
OMG. I agree with Donna.
Look! In the sky! Flying pigs!
j/k
oh man!! you just beat me to it
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| Posted 11/28/06 3:44 PM |
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Eva Luna
Be kind...life's hard!
Member since 8/05 4750 total posts
Name:
God, bless & heal my DH, JenG's DH Rob & DebG
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
Posted by dm24angel
Posted by HollaGirl
Because all I got out of her post was sad. C'mon.
...your feelings were hurt about being called a racist...which I dont condone...
BUT...I "think" comments like that kinda make people wonder why you would say that?
But like someone else said, we need to start showing respect for others opinions, so I am NOT saying your wrong in your thinking, Im just pointing out how it comes across to others
This is the song that never ends.
Regarding being called a racist...was anyone called that directly? NOPE. No one called her that. That's an assumption by her part.
Speaking of "respect for others" I was called out as biased...
Posted by HollaGirl
Posted by Eva Luna
Posted by Beth1210
Posted by nycchic24
And this has NOTHING to do with anything....BUT, why the hell was this guy out at 4am on the day he was getting married?
Exactly what I was thinking!
they just planned the wedding 3 weeks ago
and maybe it was the only day everyone could get together- who care why they went the night before?
Because you can't blame the person that died without making statements like these, silly!!
Sasha, I think it anyone is BIASED, you are. You seem to always think people are out to get minorities.
Do I care? Does it hurt me? Nope. Because I know the truth. I know I'm not. So lies and accusations, especially from someone who admitted that she is biased, can't hurt me.
Momma always told me that the truth hurts...
Posted by HollaGirl
Posted by Ritse
Unless you lived your life as a black man in this country and 95% of the time you are judged before you even open your mouth, you may never understand!
I agree to disagree. Our experiences have been different so there is no point going back and forth.
I am a black woman with a black father, black brothers and cousins who have never been in trouble but still constantly have to justify/prove themselves in most situations. I'm sorry if I am a biased. It's a different ballgame entirely.
I am biased too. I was robbed once, and mugged once again, by a black man. So, if you want to base your feelings about the cops on what the white cops do, then dont fault others for their generalizations either.
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| Posted 11/28/06 3:50 PM |
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HollaGirl
Merry Christmas !!!
Member since 10/06 3308 total posts
Name:
Kristen
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
Posted by Eva Luna
Posted by dm24angel
Posted by HollaGirl
Because all I got out of her post was sad. C'mon.
...your feelings were hurt about being called a racist...which I dont condone...
BUT...I "think" comments like that kinda make people wonder why you would say that?
But like someone else said, we need to start showing respect for others opinions, so I am NOT saying your wrong in your thinking, Im just pointing out how it comes across to others
This is the song that never ends.
Regarding being called a racist...was anyone called that directly? NOPE. No one called her that. That's an assumption by her part.
Speaking of "respect for others" I was called out as biased...
Posted by HollaGirl
Posted by Eva Luna
Posted by Beth1210
Posted by nycchic24
And this has NOTHING to do with anything....BUT, why the hell was this guy out at 4am on the day he was getting married?
Exactly what I was thinking!
they just planned the wedding 3 weeks ago
and maybe it was the only day everyone could get together- who care why they went the night before?
Because you can't blame the person that died without making statements like these, silly!!
Sasha, I think it anyone is BIASED, you are. You seem to always think people are out to get minorities.
Do I care? Does it hurt me? Nope. Because I know the truth. I know I'm not. So lies and accusations, especially from someone who admitted that she is biased, can't hurt me.
Momma always told me that the truth hurts...
Posted by HollaGirl
Posted by Ritse
Unless you lived your life as a black man in this country and 95% of the time you are judged before you even open your mouth, you may never understand!
I agree to disagree. Our experiences have been different so there is no point going back and forth.
I am a black woman with a black father, black brothers and cousins who have never been in trouble but still constantly have to justify/prove themselves in most situations. I'm sorry if I am a biased. It's a different ballgame entirely.
I am biased too. I was robbed once, and mugged once again, by a black man. So, if you want to base your feelings about the cops on what the white cops do, then dont fault others for their generalizations either.
It is the song that never ends, so why keep quoting things that were said HOURS ago. Also, you said yourself you werent inadvertantly calling me a racist, but it was plain to see.
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| Posted 11/28/06 3:56 PM |
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Eva Luna
Be kind...life's hard!
Member since 8/05 4750 total posts
Name:
God, bless & heal my DH, JenG's DH Rob & DebG
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
Posted by HollaGirl
Posted by Eva Luna
Posted by dm24angel
Posted by HollaGirl
Because all I got out of her post was sad. C'mon.
...your feelings were hurt about being called a racist...which I dont condone...
BUT...I "think" comments like that kinda make people wonder why you would say that?
But like someone else said, we need to start showing respect for others opinions, so I am NOT saying your wrong in your thinking, Im just pointing out how it comes across to others
This is the song that never ends.
Regarding being called a racist...was anyone called that directly? NOPE. No one called her that. That's an assumption by her part.
Speaking of "respect for others" I was called out as biased...
Posted by HollaGirl
Posted by Eva Luna
Posted by Beth1210
Posted by nycchic24
And this has NOTHING to do with anything....BUT, why the hell was this guy out at 4am on the day he was getting married?
Exactly what I was thinking!
they just planned the wedding 3 weeks ago
and maybe it was the only day everyone could get together- who care why they went the night before?
Because you can't blame the person that died without making statements like these, silly!!
Sasha, I think it anyone is BIASED, you are. You seem to always think people are out to get minorities.
Do I care? Does it hurt me? Nope. Because I know the truth. I know I'm not. So lies and accusations, especially from someone who admitted that she is biased, can't hurt me.
Momma always told me that the truth hurts...
Posted by HollaGirl
Posted by Ritse
Unless you lived your life as a black man in this country and 95% of the time you are judged before you even open your mouth, you may never understand!
I agree to disagree. Our experiences have been different so there is no point going back and forth.
I am a black woman with a black father, black brothers and cousins who have never been in trouble but still constantly have to justify/prove themselves in most situations. I'm sorry if I am a biased. It's a different ballgame entirely.
I am biased too. I was robbed once, and mugged once again, by a black man. So, if you want to base your feelings about the cops on what the white cops do, then dont fault others for their generalizations either.
It is the song that never ends, so why keep quoting things that were said HOURS ago. Also, you said yourself you werent inadvertantly calling me a racist, but it was plain to see.
Right, it's OK for you to say whatever you wish to me, but when it's reflected on you, it's not OK?
Seriously.
Over it.
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| Posted 11/28/06 3:59 PM |
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HollaGirl
Merry Christmas !!!
Member since 10/06 3308 total posts
Name:
Kristen
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
Posted by Eva Luna
Posted by HollaGirl
Posted by Eva Luna
Posted by dm24angel
Posted by HollaGirl
Because all I got out of her post was sad. C'mon.
...your feelings were hurt about being called a racist...which I dont condone...
BUT...I "think" comments like that kinda make people wonder why you would say that?
But like someone else said, we need to start showing respect for others opinions, so I am NOT saying your wrong in your thinking, Im just pointing out how it comes across to others
This is the song that never ends.
Regarding being called a racist...was anyone called that directly? NOPE. No one called her that. That's an assumption by her part.
Speaking of "respect for others" I was called out as biased...
Posted by HollaGirl
Posted by Eva Luna
Posted by Beth1210
Posted by nycchic24
And this has NOTHING to do with anything....BUT, why the hell was this guy out at 4am on the day he was getting married?
Exactly what I was thinking!
they just planned the wedding 3 weeks ago
and maybe it was the only day everyone could get together- who care why they went the night before?
Because you can't blame the person that died without making statements like these, silly!!
Sasha, I think it anyone is BIASED, you are. You seem to always think people are out to get minorities.
Do I care? Does it hurt me? Nope. Because I know the truth. I know I'm not. So lies and accusations, especially from someone who admitted that she is biased, can't hurt me.
Momma always told me that the truth hurts...
Posted by HollaGirl
Posted by Ritse
Unless you lived your life as a black man in this country and 95% of the time you are judged before you even open your mouth, you may never understand!
I agree to disagree. Our experiences have been different so there is no point going back and forth.
I am a black woman with a black father, black brothers and cousins who have never been in trouble but still constantly have to justify/prove themselves in most situations. I'm sorry if I am a biased. It's a different ballgame entirely.
I am biased too. I was robbed once, and mugged once again, by a black man. So, if you want to base your feelings about the cops on what the white cops do, then dont fault others for their generalizations either.
It is the song that never ends, so why keep quoting things that were said HOURS ago. Also, you said yourself you werent inadvertantly calling me a racist, but it was plain to see.
Right, it's OK for you to say whatever you wish to me, but when it's reflected on you, it's not OK?
Seriously.
Over it.
Sasha, if I wanted to post all of the times you had blasted people on being predjudiced, I would be here til midnight.
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| Posted 11/28/06 4:00 PM |
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Eva Luna
Be kind...life's hard!
Member since 8/05 4750 total posts
Name:
God, bless & heal my DH, JenG's DH Rob & DebG
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
Posted by HollaGirl
It is the song that never ends, so why keep quoting things that were said HOURS ago. Also, you said yourself you werent inadvertantly calling me a racist, but it was plain to see.
Right, it's OK for you to say whatever you wish to me, but when it's reflected on you, it's not OK?
Seriously.
Over it.
Sasha, if I wanted to post all of the times you had blasted people on being predjudiced, I would be here til midnight.
Please do.
Listen Kristen, I'm not really sure why you've chosen to take this stance, but unless you've walked a second in my shoes and experienced what I personally have experienced you have no right to judge how I feel and perceive certain bigoted events.
So stop trying, OK?
I'll do the same for you. Or the times you've made fun of people, in general. Fat, slow, what have you.
I think it's time I stop responding. I'm usually a lot calmer. And nicer.
Today was awesome.
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| Posted 11/28/06 4:05 PM |
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HollaGirl
Merry Christmas !!!
Member since 10/06 3308 total posts
Name:
Kristen
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
Posted by Eva Luna
Posted by HollaGirl
It is the song that never ends, so why keep quoting things that were said HOURS ago. Also, you said yourself you werent inadvertantly calling me a racist, but it was plain to see.
Right, it's OK for you to say whatever you wish to me, but when it's reflected on you, it's not OK?
Seriously.
Over it.
Sasha, if I wanted to post all of the times you had blasted people on being predjudiced, I would be here til midnight.
Please do.
Listen Kristen, I'm not really sure why you've chosen to take this stance, but unless you've walked a second in my shoes and experienced what I personally have experienced you have no right to judge how I feel and perceive certain bigoted events.
So stop trying, OK?
I'll do the same for you. Or the times you've made fun of people, in general. Fat, slow, what have you.
I think it's time I stop responding. I'm usually a lot calmer. And nicer.
Today was awesome.
Good idea. And I have been nothing but nice to you, Sasha. So, not sure why YOU are taking the stance you are either.
Message edited 11/28/2006 4:07:13 PM.
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| Posted 11/28/06 4:06 PM |
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MrsERod
Praying for Everyone.
Member since 5/05 26170 total posts
Name:
MrsERod™®
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
OMG ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!! 
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| Posted 11/28/06 4:08 PM |
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JenniferEver
The Disney Lady
Member since 5/05 18163 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
Chilly down Chilly down with the wild gang!
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| Posted 11/28/06 4:10 PM |
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Libragal07
Loving Summer.....
Member since 8/06 6636 total posts
Name:
Samantha aka Sammy Bones
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
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| Posted 11/28/06 4:13 PM |
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QuoteTheRaven424
22 Months?!!!!
Member since 5/05 13659 total posts
Name:
And If That Isn't A True Blue Miracle
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
DAMN!
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| Posted 11/28/06 4:14 PM |
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JenniferEver
The Disney Lady
Member since 5/05 18163 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
The last one to posty before it gets pulled WINS!
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| Posted 11/28/06 4:15 PM |
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Redhead
You Live, You Learn
Member since 5/05 31871 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: It's funny how "hot topics" bring out the worst in people...
Well i am going to have my say on this thread....
I think you are really pretty ignorant if you think what people post on here is an INKLING of who the person IS.
THIS IS A FLUCKING CHAT BOARD PEOPLE...
A C H A T B O A R D.....
GET A GRIP.
Yes debated get heated. That is because people believe what they are saying.
COULD some of how and what they are saying be MISCONSTRUED....LIKE DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHH.
COULD peoples lame preconceived notions and/or opinions of other posters CLOUD what they see or read...LIKE DUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHH
GET WITH THE PROGRAM PEEPS...
90% of you don't know me...NOR I YOU.
Sure there are reflections of my personality on here..
SURE you can see some things that i am interested and get a GIST of how i see the world and my view points...
DO heated arguments trun bad...YEA sometimes..
SOMETIMES people say things they wish they didn't.
THAT IS BEING HUMAN.
Everyone really should get off their moral high ground for a second and take notcie that THIS IS THE INTERNET...
You may even make some friends on here...THINK they are good, decent people....GUESS WHAT..
THIS IS STILL THE INTERNET...
YOU DON"T KNOW CRAPOLA until you spend time with them...
Spend year knowing them and everything there is about that person
SO please...think about that when you "THINK" you know someone on here
You may not like what they say in posts...YOU MIGHT find what people say...down right vile...
BUT DON"T THINK YOU KNOW the person
BECAUSE YOU DON"T
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| Posted 11/28/06 5:18 PM |
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