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snowbunny
LIF Infant
Member since 11/08 146 total posts
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
Posted by Mikismom
Posted by Ophelia
this is not that far off from your definition stef
The failure to use reasonable care to avoid consequences that threaten or harm the safety of the public and that are the foreseeable outcome of acting in a particular manner.
my point is, this type of situation is a slippery slope, and if you feel the mom is directly responsibile for the death, you *can* be saying (even inadvertantly) that she should be held accountable under the law.
I think the mom could have prevented her child's death, yes I do
We could go round and round all day...at the end of the day, this child died a terrible, PREVENTABLE death and that to me, in inexcusible
ITA
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Posted 2/6/09 2:15 PM  |
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stickydust
Now a mommy of 2!!!
Member since 4/06 3164 total posts
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
I like to think that I am a great mom but I do not check on my 2 year old in the middle of the night. I have a monitor in my room but that is it. When she was younger I used to but now unless she wakes up crying I do not wake up and I must say if I get up in the middle of the night to pee I do not check on her. I am not sure what I would have done in that instance but I am just saying what I do in my everyday life.
As far dogs barking - my dogs bark ALL the time over everything so you get used to it and aren't alarmed by it anymore.
The thing is it is a horrible tragedy. I am sure that most homes aren't 100% child-proofed. And I am certain that most of us have had those "what if" moments with our kids where they do something and you think what if I had not seen it etc.
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| Posted 2/6/09 2:41 PM |
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kristinel
Steinbeck
Member since 5/08 1224 total posts
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
Let me start off that I am not a parent, so therefore I cannot in any way pass judgment. Having said that, I asked my parents if it would have been possible for me, at 3 years of age, to get out of the house on my own at 3 am. Both of my parents agreed that it could have been possible, especially since they awoke many nights during my toddler years to me sleep walking in various rooms in the house.
Message edited 2/6/2009 2:57:08 PM.
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| Posted 2/6/09 2:48 PM |
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EmmaNick
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Member since 12/06 16001 total posts
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
Posted by stickydust
I like to think that I am a great mom but I do not check on my 2 year old in the middle of the night. I have a monitor in my room but that is it. When she was younger I used to but now unless she wakes up crying I do not wake up and I must say if I get up in the middle of the night to pee I do not check on her. I am not sure what I would have done in that instance but I am just saying what I do in my everyday life.
Are you saying you aren't sure if you woke up and your front door was wide open, that you would check on your DC?
I hope this story is a wake up call for ALL parents 
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| Posted 2/6/09 2:49 PM |
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sometimesmommy
Always in my heart.....
Member since 11/06 6686 total posts
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
Posted by stickydust
I like to think that I am a great mom but I do not check on my 2 year old in the middle of the night. I have a monitor in my room but that is it. When she was younger I used to but now unless she wakes up crying I do not wake up and I must say if I get up in the middle of the night to pee I do not check on her. I am not sure what I would have done in that instance but I am just saying what I do in my everyday life.
As far dogs barking - my dogs bark ALL the time over everything so you get used to it and aren't alarmed by it anymore.
The thing is it is a horrible tragedy. I am sure that most homes aren't 100% child-proofed. And I am certain that most of us have had those "what if" moments with our kids where they do something and you think what if I had not seen it etc.
All parents have what if moments and for the majority we learn from our mistakes. This woman made a mistake and paid the ultimate price--Her story will most likely resonate in our minds and force us to be more careful BUT there are other what if moments that we will all experience so this does not mean that woman is a bad parent.
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| Posted 2/6/09 2:49 PM |
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kristinel
Steinbeck
Member since 5/08 1224 total posts
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by Sash
Or is this mentality because we grew up in NYC where doors are always locked and we're always cautious?
I am going to wager this is more the case.
this happened in a hamlet of less than 1000 people.
it's a different mentality.
If *I* saw my door open, even at my country house, I would get a weapon, wake up my husband call the police and have every square inch overturned!!!!
but my neighbors would probably think I was a "typical" city girl and laugh at me (provided it was a false alarm, of course).
It is a different mentality. I grew up in a town of 8,000 and our doors were never locked, and only in the winter did we actually close the inside door. I initially thought: "Well, how did a 3 year old reach the dead bolt?", but then I remembered that they lived in a rural area and probably didn't lock their doors.
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| Posted 2/6/09 2:54 PM |
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Kidsaplenty
Sister love
Member since 2/06 5971 total posts
Name:
Stephanie
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
I feel sick since reading this story, that poor little girl.
But, I do think the parents were negligent. If your DD knew how to unlock the door, there should have been a child proof lock on it, or one of those door knob things that I use.
And honestly, why wouldn't you check on your kids after seeing your front door open? I would be running to make sure there wasn't someone who broke into my house
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| Posted 2/6/09 2:55 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
Posted by EmmaNick
up and your front door was wide open, that you would check on your DC?
did the article report the door to have been wide open or ajar?
to me, that is a big difference...the difference between a person opening the door and my dog pawing it up slightly???
Posted by EmmaNick
I hope this story is a wake up call for ALL parents
of course I agree. anything to make us ever more vigilant can't be bad...however, it comes at a terrible price.
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| Posted 2/6/09 2:55 PM |
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stickydust
Now a mommy of 2!!!
Member since 4/06 3164 total posts
Name:
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
Posted by EmmaNick
Posted by stickydust
I like to think that I am a great mom but I do not check on my 2 year old in the middle of the night. I have a monitor in my room but that is it. When she was younger I used to but now unless she wakes up crying I do not wake up and I must say if I get up in the middle of the night to pee I do not check on her. I am not sure what I would have done in that instance but I am just saying what I do in my everyday life.
Are you saying you aren't sure if you woke up and your front door was wide open, that you would check on your DC?
I hope this story is a wake up call for ALL parents
No - I am saying that I was not there and not under those particular circumstances so I am not going to judge anyone for making a mistake - which is what it was. A horrible tragic mistake. It is easy to look at things in hindsight and know we would not do something but like previous posters have said we live in a different environment than they do so our mentality is different - we simply do not understand and can't relate to it. I know we are all wonderful parents on this board but none of us are without flaws si I just refrain from judging unless there is evidence of true child neglect (i.e. leaving a child in the car alone).
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| Posted 2/6/09 3:01 PM |
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KGools
Happy
Member since 9/06 9532 total posts
Name:
Kim
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
Posted by headoverheels
i know they will live with this guilt for the rest of their lives... but at least they get to live.
And what kind of quality of life do you think this family will have carrying around the guilt that, not only they will put on themselves, but others will put on them as well.
It just saddens me that many people in this thread are so quick to point fingers and call it negligent. I'm not a mother yet, but I know accidents happen every single day even to the amazing mom's on this board when they're backs are turned for just a second... does that make them or anyone else negligent?
I think this was a tragic accident. No one is to blame. Should this mother have checked on her children when she noticed the door was open?... maybe. But because she didn't, does that make her negligent?... No, I don't think so. We're only getting thismuch of the story and who this family really is... to me, that is not enough to brand them negligent parents for life.
Message edited 2/6/2009 3:17:48 PM.
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| Posted 2/6/09 3:10 PM |
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leighla
Support Cancer Research
Member since 5/05 16353 total posts
Name:
Lauren
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
As I stated in my post in the other thread, I can see how this would happen, based on my own experience.
I don't think it was intentional. I don't even think it was neglegent.
I think it was an honest to god human mistake.
It's very easy to sit back and say I would never, which some people on here seem to do a lot.
I would never forget my kid in a car.
I would never not check on my child.
I would never drive with snow on my roof.
Must be nice for some people to be so untouchable.
The rest of us are human and as much as we try to do everything right, we all make mistakes.
Hopefully they don't turn out as tragic as this and hopefully my friends would be more understanding.
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| Posted 2/6/09 3:12 PM |
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
Well, on a scale of 1-5, here is where things fall for me:
1 = purposeful abuse and neglect (the kind that gets you the instant ticket to hell) all done with the clear intent to hurt or neglect a child
2 = accidental abuse and neglect - this is where leaving your kids in the car or the tub come in for me. Not exactly on purpose, but unforgiveable.
3 = The things that USUALLY don't wind up killing your kids, but if something went wrong, you will be known as that idiotic parent who..... Things like sky diving with your baby, driving around with your kid on your lap, leaving the 5 year old to babysit the 3 year old, stuff like that
4 and 5 I will lump together because there are varying degrees. These are all the things the parent should have done, but didn't, because 99% of the time, nothing bad ever happened. But the 1% chance is so horrendous and awful and will punish the parent forever.
This is where this story falls for me. Preventable, but in some ways, forgiveable. I check on Cailen everytime he farts, but I know many parents don't, and we don't hear too many kids freezing to death in the middle of the night stories, thankfully.
The story of the child who died while playing in the radio flyer on the hill, rolling into Montauk Hwy, while the dad was unloading the car is one of those stories for me.
It's a "hindsight is 20/20" story, and yes, the parent could have been SO much more careful, but didn't map out every worst case scenario in their heads. I personally could drive myself insane with every worst case scenario that goes through my head when I leave Cailen alone on the couch watching Blue's Clues while I'm in the shower, but not everyone is like me.....
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| Posted 2/6/09 3:12 PM |
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DaniJude
You're My Home <3
Member since 11/06 14815 total posts
Name:
Danielle
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
I really can't decide how I feel about this story! It's horrible.
My question is: those who feel she is negligent - what should happen to her? Because I've seen people state that they should be held responsible and then others have stated they don't feel she should go to jail - that it wasn't "criminally" negligent. So, then, what should happen to them? What can we do to these parents??
I don't really know how I feel either way - part of me wants to just shake the parent and go WHY didn't you check? The other part of me thinks she will probably ask herself that question over and over again for the rest of her life. So, I have no idea what to say - I'm not a parent. I cringe to think of the mistakes that I one day might make as a parent not realizing.
I'm usually so good at forming an opinion one way or another but on this one I just don't know how I feel.  I see both sides of it - I agree with different parts of what everyone is saying. I just don't know what more we can do in terms of having them "accept" responsibility??
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| Posted 2/6/09 3:21 PM |
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BaroqueMama
Chase is one!
Member since 5/05 27530 total posts
Name:
me
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
Well, I will say this- I don't even go into Ava's room at night to check on her. HOWEVER, had she gotten out before, I would check on her. Absolutely. And even now, if her door was open, even a crack, I'd go in to check on her because we keep her door shut. However, I don't think this poor woman should be crucified. Unfortunately, she was presented with a decision and made the wrong one. The consequences of that decision will haunt her forever.
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| Posted 2/6/09 3:32 PM |
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lovemy2boys
LIF Adult
Member since 10/07 3915 total posts
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
Posted by Ophelia
I dont' understand the point of publicly crucifying this woman or her family.
the worst thing about parenting is that there is ALWAYS a chance something will happen you NEVER expected.
I am sure if there was ANY indication to this mother that her daughter in fact opened the door that she would have checked on her.
I think this is highly unfair.
Parental responsibility NEVER ends.
ITA with this , this is any parent's worst nightmare , all I can do is feel sorry for them
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| Posted 2/6/09 3:35 PM |
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kristinel
Steinbeck
Member since 5/08 1224 total posts
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
Here's a real life scenario. My aunt and uncle went on vacation in 1987 leaving their 1 and 2 year old children at home with a babysitter. While they were on vacation their house caught on fire and the babies died. My aunt and uncle ended up divorced and my aunt has become a complete wreck. Over the years she has slipped farther and farther away from reality. She is literally "insane", is on multiple drugs, sees multiple therapists, and to this day is obsessed over the death of her children. She is constantly replaying that vacation in her head and lives with the guilt that if she hadn't gone on the trip, or had taken the babies with her, her children would be alive today. So, judge these parents all you want, just remember that their pain is real and in no way will they ever be the same.
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| Posted 2/6/09 3:37 PM |
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
Posted by kristinel
Here's a real life scenario. My aunt and uncle went on vacation in 1987 leaving their 1 and 2 year old children at home with a babysitter. While they were on vacation their house caught on fire and the babies died. My aunt and uncle ended up divorced and my aunt has become a complete wreck. Over the years she has slipped farther and farther away from reality. She is literally "insane", is on multiple drugs, sees multiple therapists, and to this day is obsessed over the death of her children. She is constantly replaying that vacation in her head and lives with the guilt that if she hadn't gone on the trip, or had taken the babies with her, her children would be alive today. So, judge these parents all you want, just remember that their pain is real and in no way will they ever be the same.
This would be me, absolutely. I have to be honest - I would never leave my child with anyone other than DH. That's just me. He is the only person I know who would give up his life for our child. I would never count on a babysitter to do that. I could never live with the guilt of what could happen.
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| Posted 2/6/09 3:46 PM |
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Bxgell2
Perfection
Member since 5/05 16438 total posts
Name:
Beth
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
As parents I'm fairly certain we have ALL been in a situation, at least once, where, looking BACK, we thought, "Wow, that was close... thank god nothing terrible happened"
That is what being human is all about - we make mistakes, sometimes bad judgment calls, and yes, this even applies to the BEST of mothers and fathers. We are not infallible.
What happened in that household was not neglect. Neglect is leaving a child in a running car while you go into a store. Neglect is leaving a young child at home alone without food. THIS, is not neglect.
For all we know, this was a perpetual dog barker, who occasionally pushed the front door ajar. For all we know this is a rural area where most people do not lock the door, and don't think twice. For all we know, she's a very deep sleeper, was half conscious when she looked at the door, and wasn't functioning enough to realize there may be a risk.
And you know what? We've ALL been in a similar situation. Fortunately, 9 times out of 10, nothing happens, and that's what prevents most of us from living a life of total fear and paranoia. But occasionally, and unfortunatey, it leads to some really unfortunate and devastating circumstances, as it has here.
I'm SURE this mother is looking back on the situation and can NOW put everything together to realize she should have checked. Dog barking, door slightly ajar, kid who has tendency to wander... ok, taken all together, maybe that's enough to warrant checking the child's room. But we have to remember, that in the middle of the night, all of this might not have occured ot her all at once.
I am sure she will regret this decision for the rest of her life. But for us to crucify her as a neglient parent is just horrid, and places all parents in a very precarious situation for judgment.
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| Posted 2/6/09 3:53 PM |
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HoneyBadger
YourWorstNightmare.
Member since 10/06 15979 total posts
Name:
BahBahBlackJeep
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
Posted by leighla
As I stated in my post in the other thread, I can see how this would happen, based on my own experience.
I don't think it was intentional. I don't even think it was neglegent.
I think it was an honest to god human mistake.
It's very easy to sit back and say I would never, which some people on here seem to do a lot.
I would never forget my kid in a car.
I would never not check on my child.
I would never drive with snow on my roof.
Must be nice for some people to be so untouchable.
The rest of us are human and as much as we try to do everything right, we all make mistakes.
Hopefully they don't turn out as tragic as this and hopefully my friends would be more understanding.
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
I think it's very easy to forget that we're human and that people make mistakes. Unfortunatley this was a BIG mistake but now this woman has to LIVE with this horrible mistake she made.
Oh and FTR, I do drive with snow on the roof of my truck but I've already been crucified for that on a different thread! 
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| Posted 2/6/09 7:04 PM |
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leighla
Support Cancer Research
Member since 5/05 16353 total posts
Name:
Lauren
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
Posted by Jennie0898
Oh and FTR, I do drive with snow on the roof of my truck but I've already been crucified for that on a different thread!
You and me both, sister.
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| Posted 2/6/09 8:52 PM |
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leighla
Support Cancer Research
Member since 5/05 16353 total posts
Name:
Lauren
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
Posted by lipglossjunky73
Posted by kristinel
Here's a real life scenario. My aunt and uncle went on vacation in 1987 leaving their 1 and 2 year old children at home with a babysitter. While they were on vacation their house caught on fire and the babies died. My aunt and uncle ended up divorced and my aunt has become a complete wreck. Over the years she has slipped farther and farther away from reality. She is literally "insane", is on multiple drugs, sees multiple therapists, and to this day is obsessed over the death of her children. She is constantly replaying that vacation in her head and lives with the guilt that if she hadn't gone on the trip, or had taken the babies with her, her children would be alive today. So, judge these parents all you want, just remember that their pain is real and in no way will they ever be the same.
This would be me, absolutely. I have to be honest - I would never leave my child with anyone other than DH. That's just me. He is the only person I know who would give up his life for our child. I would never count on a babysitter to do that. I could never live with the guilt of what could happen.
I say this with all respect and admiration, because I think you are a great mom.
But if you live your life always in fear of what may happen, is that really living?
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| Posted 2/6/09 8:53 PM |
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MrsERod
Praying for Everyone.
Member since 5/05 26170 total posts
Name:
MrsERod™®
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
Posted by Bxgell2
As parents I'm fairly certain we have ALL been in a situation, at least once, where, looking BACK, we thought, "Wow, that was close... thank god nothing terrible happened"
That is what being human is all about - we make mistakes, sometimes bad judgment calls, and yes, this even applies to the BEST of mothers and fathers. We are not infallible.
What happened in that household was not neglect. Neglect is leaving a child in a running car while you go into a store. Neglect is leaving a young child at home alone without food. THIS, is not neglect.
For all we know, this was a perpetual dog barker, who occasionally pushed the front door ajar. For all we know this is a rural area where most people do not lock the door, and don't think twice. For all we know, she's a very deep sleeper, was half conscious when she looked at the door, and wasn't functioning enough to realize there may be a risk.
And you know what? We've ALL been in a similar situation. Fortunately, 9 times out of 10, nothing happens, and that's what prevents most of us from living a life of total fear and paranoia. But occasionally, and unfortunatey, it leads to some really unfortunate and devastating circumstances, as it has here.
I'm SURE this mother is looking back on the situation and can NOW put everything together to realize she should have checked. Dog barking, door slightly ajar, kid who has tendency to wander... ok, taken all together, maybe that's enough to warrant checking the child's room. But we have to remember, that in the middle of the night, all of this might not have occured ot her all at once.
I am sure she will regret this decision for the rest of her life. But for us to crucify her as a neglient parent is just horrid, and places all parents in a very precarious situation for judgment.
I 10000000000% AGREE!!!!!!!!! 
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| Posted 2/6/09 9:03 PM |
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
Posted by leighla
Posted by lipglossjunky73
Posted by kristinel
Here's a real life scenario. My aunt and uncle went on vacation in 1987 leaving their 1 and 2 year old children at home with a babysitter. While they were on vacation their house caught on fire and the babies died. My aunt and uncle ended up divorced and my aunt has become a complete wreck. Over the years she has slipped farther and farther away from reality. She is literally "insane", is on multiple drugs, sees multiple therapists, and to this day is obsessed over the death of her children. She is constantly replaying that vacation in her head and lives with the guilt that if she hadn't gone on the trip, or had taken the babies with her, her children would be alive today. So, judge these parents all you want, just remember that their pain is real and in no way will they ever be the same.
This would be me, absolutely. I have to be honest - I would never leave my child with anyone other than DH. That's just me. He is the only person I know who would give up his life for our child. I would never count on a babysitter to do that. I could never live with the guilt of what could happen.
I say this with all respect and admiration, because I think you are a great mom.
But if you live your life always in fear of what may happen, is that really living?
I never live in fear, actually. I'm a pretty fearless person. As a Buddhist, we live with the knowledge that death can happen at any time. It's not fearful for us, it is a constant reminder to live life to the fullest. And many things have happened in my life that taught me that at any given moment, anything can happen. To me, Cailen is the best thing to ever happen to me, and I believe that there are very few people on this planet who would automatically put their lives aside to protect him. And it's me and DH. It's not fear, it's being parents. I always think of the things that can happen that wouldn't be safe in every stuation. sometimes I do them, and sometimes I don't - especially if it would affect him.
I don't think it has taken the juice out of living for me at all. To me, going away on vacation while a babysitter watches him is not really living. Really living would be to have him with me. Worrying about how he is when I'm away from him is the occupational hazard of being a parent, not fear. Fear to me is BTDT by being raised in abuse. I got the fear part of my life out of the way as a child. 
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| Posted 2/7/09 1:44 PM |
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
I need to ask because I have been reading about this all week...
Where are you all reading that a door was found ajar and the mom went back to sleep?
Because that is in none of the articles I have seen.
Feb 4th
Feb 4th update
Feb 5th
Feb 5th update
Feb 6th
Message edited 2/7/2009 2:27:17 PM.
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| Posted 2/7/09 2:20 PM |
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pinkandblue
Our family is complete, maybe
Member since 9/05 32436 total posts
Name:
Stephanie
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Re: Spinoff - child freezes to death after leaving family home
Posted by -DonnaMarie-
I need to ask because I have been reading about this all week...
Where are you all reading that a door was found ajar and the mom went back to sleep?
Because that is in none of the articles I have seen.
Feb 4th
Feb 4th update
Feb 5th
Feb 5th update
Feb 6th
from Janet's initial post about the tragedy
"Police say the child had figured out how to undo a lock and a latch on the front door. Cops believe the family dog barked at 3 a.m. when the toddler wandered outside. Her mother got up and found the front door ajar, but she didn't check on the toddler.
"The dog appeared to have been the one responsible for the door being ajar so the mother closed the door, locked it and went back to sleep," said Olson"
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| Posted 2/7/09 2:29 PM |
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