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shadows
LIF Adult
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Posted by klingklang77
Posted by BunnyWife
Posted by seaside
The plural of anecdote is not data, and kids are dying because people think it is.
Exactly! Correlation is not causation. It's like saying, I ate at McDonalds this week and doing that caused autism. There have been no studies, none, that show any correlation between vaccines and autism.
You took the words right out of my mouth  .
It's really scary how anti-science some parts of the world are becoming.
ITA 
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Posted 2/4/15 6:56 PM  |
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ChilisWife
God Bless America
Member since 5/05 3572 total posts
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A.K.
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
I don't think it's necessarily that people are "anti-science." I am extremely "pro-science," but I'm not a scientist. So for me the question becomes, who can I trust to give me accurate information? It is no secret that the pharmaceutical companies are out there to make money, and combined with the fact that they are immune from being sued from any vaccine issues, I don't feel there is any incentive for them to really disclose the full truth about anything. We all know how corrupt and controlled the media is so whatever is reported there you have to take with a grain of salt. And to say that members of certain governmental oversight groups aren't influenced by lobbyists or corporations is in my opinion naive. So what "science" am I to really trust?
I don't believe vaccines "cause" autism. But until we find an actual "cause" of autism, I don't think that thought will ever completely go away in society. I do believe in vaccines (except for the flu) and my kids have received them. But I'm aware that there are potential side effects - some of which are disclosed - and my DD's last vaccine caused an awful and scary reaction that made me question, for a moment, my decision to inject her with who knows what toxins. Thankfully she is OK and it was the only shot she ever had a reaction to, but I can't sit here and judge parents for making decisions they feel are best for their child.
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| Posted 2/4/15 9:01 PM |
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Hopefulmama
LIF Adult
Member since 4/14 1014 total posts
Name:
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
I have a child with a developmental disability (not autism). Even though I desperately want to, Ill never know why or how it happened. As a parent, that is a very hard thing to accept, so on the one hand I sympathize with parents of children with autism. However, With my sons condition, cerebral palsy, it's long established that unless you are in certain high risk groups, you will never understand why. It's tough, but it's life, and you learn to shift your focus away from "why did this happen." I went through an initial period of wanting to blame my OB, my mfm, my reproductive endocrinologist, myself.... Fortunately I believe in science and accept that the recent studies prove definitively that obstetric errors are NOT to blame for 90 percent of the cases of CP. So while I wanted to blame initially, I can't. The evidence isn't there. Yes the Internet is FULL of stories of ppl blaming their Obs for their child's subsequent cp but all of those stories don't add up to one iota of scientific proof. Yes. All kids with cp were delivered by obstetricians. Therefore obstetricians must cause CP, right? It's inherently flawed logic. Same with vaccines and autism.
Ultimately I feel the real enemies are the repeatedly debunked dr Andrew Wakefield and the media personalities who continued to exploit devastated parents.
As to the people who are requesting a study that definitively proves vaccines do not caus autism...you cannot prove a negative. It's like trying to prove eating yogurt doesn't cause hair loss. Or that drinking coffee doesn't cause broken legs. You can't disprove an association that doesn't exist.
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:12 PM |
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klingklang77
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Member since 7/06 11487 total posts
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Posted by Hopefulmama
I have a child with a developmental disability (not autism). Even though I desperately want to, Ill never know why or how it happened. As a parent, that is a very hard thing to accept, so on the one hand I sympathize with parents of children with autism. However, With my sons condition, cerebral palsy, it's long established that unless you are in certain high risk groups, you will never understand why. It's tough, but it's life, and you learn to shift your focus away from "why did this happen." I went through an initial period of wanting to blame my OB, my mfm, my reproductive endocrinologist, myself.... Fortunately I believe in science and accept that the recent studies prove definitively that obstetric errors are NOT to blame for 90 percent of the cases of CP. So while I wanted to blame initially, I can't. The evidence isn't there. Yes the Internet is FULL of stories of ppl blaming their Obs for their child's subsequent cp but all of those stories don't add up to one iota of scientific proof. Yes. All kids with cp were delivered by obstetricians. Therefore obstetricians must cause CP, right? It's inherently flawed logic. Same with vaccines and autism.
Ultimately I feel the real enemies are the repeatedly debunked dr Andrew Wakefield and the media personalities who continued to exploit devastated parents.
As to the people who are requesting a study that definitively proves vaccines do not caus autism...you cannot prove a negative. It's like trying to prove eating yogurt doesn't cause hair loss. Or that drinking coffee doesn't cause broken legs. You can't disprove an association that doesn't exist.
Well said!
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:16 PM |
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jessnbrian
Only God knows His plan for us
Member since 4/13 7238 total posts
Name:
Jessica
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Posted by Hopefulmama
I have a child with a developmental disability (not autism). Even though I desperately want to, Ill never know why or how it happened. As a parent, that is a very hard thing to accept, so on the one hand I sympathize with parents of children with autism. However, With my sons condition, cerebral palsy, it's long established that unless you are in certain high risk groups, you will never understand why. It's tough, but it's life, and you learn to shift your focus away from "why did this happen." I went through an initial period of wanting to blame my OB, my mfm, my reproductive endocrinologist, myself.... Fortunately I believe in science and accept that the recent studies prove definitively that obstetric errors are NOT to blame for 90 percent of the cases of CP. So while I wanted to blame initially, I can't. The evidence isn't there. Yes the Internet is FULL of stories of ppl blaming their Obs for their child's subsequent cp but all of those stories don't add up to one iota of scientific proof. Yes. All kids with cp were delivered by obstetricians. Therefore obstetricians must cause CP, right? It's inherently flawed logic. Same with vaccines and autism.
Ultimately I feel the real enemies are the repeatedly debunked dr Andrew Wakefield and the media personalities who continued to exploit devastated parents.
As to the people who are requesting a study that definitively proves vaccines do not caus autism...you cannot prove a negative. It's like trying to prove eating yogurt doesn't cause hair loss. Or that drinking coffee doesn't cause broken legs. You can't disprove an association that doesn't exist.
Thank you for very eloquently saying what I was very sloppily trying to say earlier. I agree with what you have said entirely.
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:19 PM |
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OrganicMama
So in love with my little man!
Member since 6/08 5172 total posts
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Mama
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Wow, the comments on here are incredible, and I didn't even get through the first page.
First of all, I would like to address every single one of you on this board, and ask when YOU received your last boosters. Or your parents, grandparents, neighbors, friends. YOU are part of the so-called problem! 80-95% of the population needs to be immune or up to date on the vaccinations for herd immunity to work, and it's nowhere near that because 1. Most adults are not up to date on their vaccines 2. The vaccines are not 100% effective 3. There are some that choose not to vax. Also, herd immunity is a natural phenomen that can't really be duplicated by man made vaccines, because they don't provide the natural immunity that contracting the disease does.
Also, don't forget that vaccinated people are more of a risk to Immunocompromised people than the unvaccinated population due to the vaccines themselves shedding.
More people are dying from the vaccines than the diseases themselves. There have been zero reports of a person dying from the measles in 10 (possibly 12?) years ***ETA: in the US only, sorry, left that part out***Guess how many people died from the vaccine? 83.
ETA: the reason people all over the world are dying from the measles is because they are malnourished and dr deficient in vitamin A. Unless that applies to your or a family member, you really have very little to worry about.
Oh, and because I'm sure no one here actually READS the vaccine insert, you should not be around pregnant women or sick/Immunocompromised people for two weeks after receiving a live virus vaccination, BECAUSE YOU CAN TRANSMIT THE DISEASE TO THAT PERSON!!!
Message edited 2/4/2015 11:33:49 PM.
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:25 PM |
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Hopefulmama
LIF Adult
Member since 4/14 1014 total posts
Name:
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Posted by OrganicMama
Wow, the comments on here are incredible, and I didn't even get through the first page.
First of all, I would like to address every single one of you on this board, and ask when YOU received your last boosters. Or your parents, grandparents, neighbors, friends. YOU are part of the so-called problem! 80-95% of the population needs to be immune or up to date on the vaccinations for herd immunity to work, and it's nowhere near that because 1. Most adults are not up to date on their vaccines 2. The vaccines are not 100% effective 3. There are some that choose not to vax. Also, herd immunity is a natural phenomen that can't really be duplicated by man made vaccines, because they don't provide the natural immunity that contracting the disease does.
Also, don't forget that vaccinated people are more of a risk to Immunocompromised people than the unvaccinated population due to the vaccines themselves shedding.
More people are dying from the vaccines than the diseases themselves. There have been zero reports of a person dying from the measles in 10 (possibly 12?) years. Guess how many people died from the vaccine? 83.
This is so mind bogglingly misinformed it's making me want to construct a spaceship and attempt to colonize Jupiter. Anyone want to come with me??
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:29 PM |
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OrganicMama
So in love with my little man!
Member since 6/08 5172 total posts
Name:
Mama
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Posted by Hopefulmama
Posted by OrganicMama
Wow, the comments on here are incredible, and I didn't even get through the first page.
First of all, I would like to address every single one of you on this board, and ask when YOU received your last boosters. Or your parents, grandparents, neighbors, friends. YOU are part of the so-called problem! 80-95% of the population needs to be immune or up to date on the vaccinations for herd immunity to work, and it's nowhere near that because 1. Most adults are not up to date on their vaccines 2. The vaccines are not 100% effective 3. There are some that choose not to vax. Also, herd immunity is a natural phenomen that can't really be duplicated by man made vaccines, because they don't provide the natural immunity that contracting the disease does.
Also, don't forget that vaccinated people are more of a risk to Immunocompromised people than the unvaccinated population due to the vaccines themselves shedding.
More people are dying from the vaccines than the diseases themselves. There have been zero reports of a person dying from the measles in 10 (possibly 12?) years. Guess how many people died from the vaccine? 83.
This is so mind bogglingly misinformed it's making me want to construct a spaceship and attempt to colonize Jupiter. Anyone want to come with me??
Really....and which parts are misinformed? I've actually done my research, have you?
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:31 PM |
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KarenK122
The Journey is the Destination
Member since 5/05 4431 total posts
Name:
Karen
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I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
I have a DD with autism. She was adopted and received no vaccinations prior to coming to the US. I knew from the second she was put into my arms at 10 months she was autistic. I firmly believe that it is genetic. The children are not sick, do not have a disease or a side effect to something that was done to them. That is how they were born. I truly believe that we need to spend less time on why they are autistic and more time on teaching acceptance and to create programs to help them navigate the world we live in.
As far as vaccinations, unless you have an allergy or a legitimate medical concern to not get a vaccination then I think everyone should vaccinate, even if you stagger them. If not, you are putting people at risk for diseases that are preventable.
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:33 PM |
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Hopefulmama
LIF Adult
Member since 4/14 1014 total posts
Name:
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/
Now I know this is just from the WHO and not hotgreenmamaswhodoyoga.com, but it shows that most assuredly people have indeed died from the measles in the last 10 (12?) years.
Message edited 2/4/2015 11:57:01 PM.
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:33 PM |
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klingklang77
kraftwerk!
Member since 7/06 11487 total posts
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Völlig losgelöst
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Posted by OrganicMama
More people are dying from the vaccines than the diseases themselves. There have been zero reports of a person dying from the measles in 10 (possibly 12?) years. Guess how many people died from the vaccine? 83.
Source? Natural News doesn't count, by the way. And yes, I have received my boosters. The only vaccination I do not have is for chicken pox (never had it, and the vaccination is not popular in Germany).
A recent study I found interesting :
http://www.aerzteblatt.de/int/archive/article/80869
They couldn't test for autism because of sample sizes, but basically the study concluded that unvaccinated children are most at risk for diseases they are not vaccinated for.
Please show sources for your arguments.
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:34 PM |
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Hopefulmama
LIF Adult
Member since 4/14 1014 total posts
Name:
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
"In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour." from the WHO
Eta - yeah, you left out the US part. Oops. Cause we are a first world country that vaccinated and until recently had eradicated measles. But don't worry, in due time, people like you will cause our vac rates to rival that of third world countries and so will our death tolls.
UnREAL
Message edited 2/4/2015 11:38:58 PM.
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:34 PM |
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OrganicMama
So in love with my little man!
Member since 6/08 5172 total posts
Name:
Mama
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Posted by Hopefulmama
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/
Now I know this is just from the WHO and not hotgreenmamaswhodoyoga.com, but it shows that most assuredly people have indeed from the measles in the last 10 (12?) years.
Sorry, I left out by mistake that I was specifically referring the the US. It's past my bedtime ;)
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:36 PM |
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OrganicMama
So in love with my little man!
Member since 6/08 5172 total posts
Name:
Mama
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Posted by Hopefulmama
"In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour." from the WHO
You cannot compare the cases of the measles in the US to say...Ethiopia. It's like comparing apples to rocket ships. We as a whole are not a malnourished population. Measles is a relatively harmless disease in otherwise healthy people.
Message edited 2/4/2015 11:39:37 PM.
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:38 PM |
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klingklang77
kraftwerk!
Member since 7/06 11487 total posts
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Posted by Hopefulmama
hotgreenmamaswhodoyoga.com
I know this is a debate, but I just need to laugh at this. Brilliant! It kind of describes the misinformation out there. 
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:39 PM |
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Hopefulmama
LIF Adult
Member since 4/14 1014 total posts
Name:
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Posted by OrganicMama
Posted by Hopefulmama
"In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour." from the WHO
You cannot compare the cases of the measles in the US to say...Ethiopia. It's like comparing apples to rocket ships. We as a whole are not a malnourished popularion.
1 I. 1000 who develop measles develop encephalitis and die. As rates of measles climb in the US, so will the death toll.
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:40 PM |
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klingklang77
kraftwerk!
Member since 7/06 11487 total posts
Name:
Völlig losgelöst
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Posted by OrganicMama
Posted by Hopefulmama
"In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour." from the WHO
You cannot compare the cases of the measles in the US to say...Ethiopia. It's like comparing apples to rocket ships. We as a whole are not a malnourished population. Measles is a relatively harmless disease in otherwise healthy people.
How can you not compare them? The disease does not discriminate. Measles kills and can have very serious complications.
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:42 PM |
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OrganicMama
So in love with my little man!
Member since 6/08 5172 total posts
Name:
Mama
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Posted by klingklang77
Posted by OrganicMama
More people are dying from the vaccines than the diseases themselves. There have been zero reports of a person dying from the measles in 10 (possibly 12?) years. Guess how many people died from the vaccine? 83.
Source? Natural News doesn't count, by the way. And yes, I have received my boosters. The only vaccination I do not have is for chicken pox (never had it, and the vaccination is not popular in Germany).
A recent study I found interesting :
http://www.aerzteblatt.de/int/archive/article/80869
They couldn't test for autism because of sample sizes, but basically the study concluded that unvaccinated children are most at risk for diseases they are not vaccinated for.
Please show sources for your arguments.
Nvic.org.
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:42 PM |
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OrganicMama
So in love with my little man!
Member since 6/08 5172 total posts
Name:
Mama
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Posted by klingklang77
Posted by OrganicMama
Posted by Hopefulmama
"In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour." from the WHO
You cannot compare the cases of the measles in the US to say...Ethiopia. It's like comparing apples to rocket ships. We as a whole are not a malnourished population. Measles is a relatively harmless disease in otherwise healthy people.
How can you not compare them? The disease does not discriminate. Measles kills and can have very serious complications.
Actually, it does, for the reasons I posted. If you're worried about measles, eat some carrots. Next thing you know there will be mass hysteria about chicken pox. You people are unreal.
Message edited 2/4/2015 11:45:51 PM.
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:43 PM |
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Hopefulmama
LIF Adult
Member since 4/14 1014 total posts
Name:
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Posted by OrganicMama
Posted by Hopefulmama
"In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour." from the WHO
You cannot compare the cases of the measles in the US to say...Ethiopia. It's like comparing apples to rocket ships. We as a whole are not a malnourished population. Measles is a relatively harmless disease in otherwise healthy people.
Yeah well not all of society has the benefit of being "otherwise healthy." Hashtag preemies, newborns, people with cancer, people with aids, old people, people receiving organ transplants, etc.
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:44 PM |
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klingklang77
kraftwerk!
Member since 7/06 11487 total posts
Name:
Völlig losgelöst
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Posted by OrganicMama
Posted by klingklang77
Posted by OrganicMama
More people are dying from the vaccines than the diseases themselves. There have been zero reports of a person dying from the measles in 10 (possibly 12?) years. Guess how many people died from the vaccine? 83.
Source? Natural News doesn't count, by the way. And yes, I have received my boosters. The only vaccination I do not have is for chicken pox (never had it, and the vaccination is not popular in Germany).
A recent study I found interesting :
http://www.aerzteblatt.de/int/archive/article/80869
They couldn't test for autism because of sample sizes, but basically the study concluded that unvaccinated children are most at risk for diseases they are not vaccinated for.
Please show sources for your arguments.
Nvic.org.
This is not a reliable source. If it says .org, it doesn't mean it is reliable. I took one look at the article headlines and said "nope", then "nope" again. Have you educated yourself? It doesn't seem you have.
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:46 PM |
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OrganicMama
So in love with my little man!
Member since 6/08 5172 total posts
Name:
Mama
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Posted by Hopefulmama
Posted by OrganicMama
Posted by Hopefulmama
"In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour." from the WHO
You cannot compare the cases of the measles in the US to say...Ethiopia. It's like comparing apples to rocket ships. We as a whole are not a malnourished population. Measles is a relatively harmless disease in otherwise healthy people.
Yeah well not all of society has the benefit of being "otherwise healthy." Hashtag preemies, newborns, people with cancer, people with aids, old people, people receiving organ transplants, etc.
Then they should follow the recommendations by the CDC and get the vaccines. The ones that say Immunocompromised people should receive even MORE than the regular population. Especially because by the pro-vaxer's logic, they're not harmful.
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:48 PM |
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klingklang77
kraftwerk!
Member since 7/06 11487 total posts
Name:
Völlig losgelöst
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Posted by OrganicMama
Posted by klingklang77
Posted by OrganicMama
Posted by Hopefulmama
"In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour." from the WHO
You cannot compare the cases of the measles in the US to say...Ethiopia. It's like comparing apples to rocket ships. We as a whole are not a malnourished population. Measles is a relatively harmless disease in otherwise healthy people.
How can you not compare them? The disease does not discriminate. Measles kills and can have very serious complications.
Actually, it does, for the reasons I posted. If you're worried about measles, eat some carrots. Next thing you know there will be mass hysteria about chicken pox. You people are unreal.
So I should eat carrots to protect myself against measles?
Oh and your source has Mercola as a sponsor? He's a total quack.
Message edited 2/4/2015 11:50:13 PM.
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:48 PM |
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OrganicMama
So in love with my little man!
Member since 6/08 5172 total posts
Name:
Mama
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Posted by klingklang77
Posted by OrganicMama
Posted by klingklang77
Posted by OrganicMama
More people are dying from the vaccines than the diseases themselves. There have been zero reports of a person dying from the measles in 10 (possibly 12?) years. Guess how many people died from the vaccine? 83.
Source? Natural News doesn't count, by the way. And yes, I have received my boosters. The only vaccination I do not have is for chicken pox (never had it, and the vaccination is not popular in Germany).
A recent study I found interesting :
http://www.aerzteblatt.de/int/archive/article/80869
They couldn't test for autism because of sample sizes, but basically the study concluded that unvaccinated children are most at risk for diseases they are not vaccinated for.
Please show sources for your arguments.
Nvic.org.
This is not a reliable source. If it says .org, it doesn't mean it is reliable. I took one look at the article headlines and said "nope", then "nope" again. Have you educated yourself? It doesn't seem you have.
If you actually took the time to read through the FACTS with sources listed, then you would see it is indeed reliable. Unless you don't deem the WHO and CDC as reliable sources?
Message edited 2/4/2015 11:50:20 PM.
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:49 PM |
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klingklang77
kraftwerk!
Member since 7/06 11487 total posts
Name:
Völlig losgelöst
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Re: I have a (possibly dumb) question about vaccinations
Posted by OrganicMama
Posted by klingklang77
Posted by OrganicMama
Posted by klingklang77
Posted by OrganicMama
More people are dying from the vaccines than the diseases themselves. There have been zero reports of a person dying from the measles in 10 (possibly 12?) years. Guess how many people died from the vaccine? 83.
Source? Natural News doesn't count, by the way. And yes, I have received my boosters. The only vaccination I do not have is for chicken pox (never had it, and the vaccination is not popular in Germany).
A recent study I found interesting :
http://www.aerzteblatt.de/int/archive/article/80869
They couldn't test for autism because of sample sizes, but basically the study concluded that unvaccinated children are most at risk for diseases they are not vaccinated for.
Please show sources for your arguments.
Nvic.org.
This is not a reliable source. If it says .org, it doesn't mean it is reliable. I took one look at the article headlines and said "nope", then "nope" again. Have you educated yourself? It doesn't seem you have.
If you actually took the time to read through the FACTS with sources listed, then you would see it is indeed reliable. Unless you don't deem the WHO and CDC as reliable sources?
Reliable, how? Mercola is an ad on the side. It's all cherrypicked.
Message edited 2/4/2015 11:51:49 PM.
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| Posted 2/4/15 11:51 PM |
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