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stickydust
Now a mommy of 2!!!
Member since 4/06 3164 total posts
Name:
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
I really do not want get into this debate but as a Political science major I just wanted to make some clarifications regarding the socialist/communist aspect of the debate. I would have quoted "The Communist Manifesto" but would have needed more time. This is from encarta...
"The idea of a society based on common ownership of property and wealth stretches far back in Western thought. In its modern form, communism grew out of the socialist movement of 19th-century Europe (see Socialism). At that time, Europe was undergoing rapid industrialization and social change. As the Industrial Revolution advanced, socialist critics blamed capitalism for creating a new class of poor, urban factory workers who labored under harsh conditions, and for widening the gulf between rich and poor. Foremost among these critics were the German philosopher Karl Marx and his associate Friedrich Engels. Like other socialists, they sought an end to capitalism and the exploitation of workers. But whereas some reformers favored peaceful, longer-term social transformation, Marx and Engels believed that violent revolution was all but inevitable; in fact, they thought it was predicted by the scientific laws of history. They called their theory “scientific socialism,” or communism. In the last half of the 19th century the terms socialism and communism were often used interchangeably. However, Marx and Engels came to see socialism as merely an intermediate stage of society in which most industry and property were owned in common but some class differences remained. They reserved the term communism for a final stage of society in which class differences had disappeared, people lived in harmony, and government was no longer needed."
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Posted 10/19/08 11:23 PM  |
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klingklang77
kraftwerk!
Member since 7/06 11487 total posts
Name:
Völlig losgelöst
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by Deedlebug126
Posted by klingklang77
Posted by Deedlebug126
Somehow it equates to bashing
Well it turns to bashing for some people, especially when you say their vote doesn't count, even though they are American, because they don't live in the US. Sorry, but that was a personal attack for some, IMO.
You came on this thread attacking us, it goes both ways.
I never made a personal attack- that was a low blow. I am not in anyway less American than those that live in the US. In fact, b/c I do live abroad, I represent Americans, those who have never been to the US.
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:24 PM |
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snowflake08
Love my boys!!!
Member since 8/07 5148 total posts
Name:
Laura
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
and so many people i ask in person about obama say "i dont know, i just want a change" or "i dont know, mccain is old"
or, "well, obama will take land that people own and put it to good use!"
or even better "well, mccain voted for the bail out"
SO DID OBAMA!!!
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:24 PM |
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smdl
I love Gary too..on a plate!
Member since 5/06 32461 total posts
Name:
me
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by snowflake08
Posted by smdl
Posted by snowflake08
no,, you were quoting me
see; it says Snowflake
I was quoting somebody else... See it does not say Snowflake.
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Posted by smdl
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Posted by ChilisWife
Socialism leads to communism.
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Could you name examples of what you are saying?
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it is the deterioration of the power of the people
it is how the power moves AWAY from the people and them having their own rights and into the hands of the government to 'redistribute" as they see fit
I wrote that
it is the deterioration of the power of the people
it is how the power moves AWAY from the people and them having their own rights and into the hands of the government to 'redistribute" as they see fit
Yes. You quoted me. I did not quote you until you quoted me quoting somebody else.
This is turning in a bunch of nothing.
I ask the person to give me an example of what she was claiming. She responded that she did not have any.
That's enough for me.
I am honestly tired of all those threads on both side STATING things that come out of nowhere and unbased.
I am not the only one who feels this way.
If you going to make such a claim, please know what you are talking about and support it with facts. Real facts!
I am done with this.
As far as the PP, I was really leaning towards McCain before he chose his VP.
I always liked McCain until recently.
I would have voted for him if he had not chosen Palin. I do not like her beliefs.
McCain provided a "voice of reason" in a lot of his work. He was a good, fair person. I guess I really like him because he is a bit "middle ground".
Unfortunatelly I cannot approve his VP and he lost my vote for this. It is unfortunate because I really like him for the work he has done over the years. I am very happy to see him as the candidate for Rep. party.
And, I am not an Obama supporter.
So I am stuck now.
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:25 PM |
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Deedlebugs
Blessed
Member since 12/05 10281 total posts
Name:
Kiki
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by klingklang77
Posted by Deedlebug126
Posted by klingklang77
Posted by Deedlebug126
Somehow it equates to bashing
Well it turns to bashing for some people, especially when you say their vote doesn't count, even though they are American, because they don't live in the US. Sorry, but that was a personal attack for some, IMO.
You came on this thread attacking us, it goes both ways.
I never made a personal attack- that was a low blow. I am not in anyway less American than those that live in the US. In fact, b/c I do live abroad, I represent Americans, those who have never been to the US.
Wasn't intended for you, sorry you internalized it. I didnt know you do not live here.
Message edited 10/19/2008 11:30:15 PM.
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:25 PM |
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HoneyBadger
YourWorstNightmare.
Member since 10/06 15979 total posts
Name:
BahBahBlackJeep
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by KellyFG
First of all IF we want to split hairs which apparently we do...The OP asked for McCain supporters to post, but by page one there were Obama supporters commenting & questioning the opinions of the supporters, and by the end of page one there were more than 4 people that listed or added to a list.
So really, how would you like us to stay on topic?
Can someone more intelligent or well versed in politics or message board etiquette please enlighten me?
Its really a crying friggin shame how unable this community is to be fair or reasonable.
Maybe I missed some? I really thought I only counted four people. My apologies if that was an incorrect figure.
As for Obama supporters coming on this thread and refuting what was said, well...that was wrong. But I would have hoped those posts would have been engaged as that seems to be how these threads spin out of control and completely off topic.
But as I said before, it is what it is. Politics make for heated threads...
As for Deedlebug and Snowflake thank you for at least answering my question in regards to staying on topic. I understand what you are saying with needing to compare.
I might not agree with that point personally, but I do see the logic behind it.
I think I'm done with this thread...Unless someone addresses me, then I will respond.
Peace.
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:26 PM |
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Deedlebugs
Blessed
Member since 12/05 10281 total posts
Name:
Kiki
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by Jennie0898
Posted by KellyFG
First of all IF we want to split hairs which apparently we do...The OP asked for McCain supporters to post, but by page one there were Obama supporters commenting & questioning the opinions of the supporters, and by the end of page one there were more than 4 people that listed or added to a list.
So really, how would you like us to stay on topic?
Can someone more intelligent or well versed in politics or message board etiquette please enlighten me?
Its really a crying friggin shame how unable this community is to be fair or reasonable.
Maybe I missed some? I really thought I only counted four people. My apologies if that was an incorrect figure.
As for Obama supporters coming on this thread and refuting what was said, well...that was wrong. But I would have hoped those posts would have been engaged as that seems to be how these threads spin out of control and completely off topic.
But as I said before, it is what it is. Politics make for heated threads...
As for Deedlebug and Snowflake thank you for at least answering my question in regards to staying on topic. I understand what you are saying with needing to compare.
I might not agree with that point personally, but I do see the logic behind it.
I think I'm done with this thread...Unless someone addresses me, then I will respond.
Peace.
I hate phelps
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:27 PM |
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snowflake08
Love my boys!!!
Member since 8/07 5148 total posts
Name:
Laura
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
well, i am sorry to hear that, but i have voted for several presidents without likeing the VP
what has **** Cheney done anyway?
LOL
hey, thats his name - im not cursing
Message edited 10/19/2008 11:28:16 PM.
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:27 PM |
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smdl
I love Gary too..on a plate!
Member since 5/06 32461 total posts
Name:
me
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by stickydust
I really do not want get into this debate but as a Political science major I just wanted to make some clarifications regarding the socialist/communist aspect of the debate. I would have quoted "The Communist Manifesto" but would have needed more time. This is from encarta...
"The idea of a society based on common ownership of property and wealth stretches far back in Western thought. In its modern form, communism grew out of the socialist movement of 19th-century Europe (see Socialism). At that time, Europe was undergoing rapid industrialization and social change. As the Industrial Revolution advanced, socialist critics blamed capitalism for creating a new class of poor, urban factory workers who labored under harsh conditions, and for widening the gulf between rich and poor. Foremost among these critics were the German philosopher Karl Marx and his associate Friedrich Engels. Like other socialists, they sought an end to capitalism and the exploitation of workers. But whereas some reformers favored peaceful, longer-term social transformation, Marx and Engels believed that violent revolution was all but inevitable; in fact, they thought it was predicted by the scientific laws of history. They called their theory “scientific socialism,” or communism. In the last half of the 19th century the terms socialism and communism were often used interchangeably. However, Marx and Engels came to see socialism as merely an intermediate stage of society in which most industry and property were owned in common but some class differences remained. They reserved the term communism for a final stage of society in which class differences had disappeared, people lived in harmony, and government was no longer needed."
This is the definition I got too in my polical classes.
But in reality most socialist countries are also a bit capitalist too. They combine both doctrines.
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:28 PM |
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Deedlebugs
Blessed
Member since 12/05 10281 total posts
Name:
Kiki
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by snowflake08
well, i am sorry to hear that, but i have voted for several presidents without likeing the VP
what has **** Cheney done anyway?
LOL
lol **** is not allowed
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:28 PM |
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HoneyBadger
YourWorstNightmare.
Member since 10/06 15979 total posts
Name:
BahBahBlackJeep
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by snowflake08
and so many people i ask in person about obama say "i dont know, i just want a change" or "i dont know, mccain is old"
or, "well, obama will take land that people own and put it to good use!"
or even better "well, mccain voted for the bail out"
SO DID OBAMA!!!
Ok, so I'll answer one more time!! 
Honestly, at this stage of the game I think you'd get a hell of a lot more from an Obama supporter than this.
As I would think you'd get more from a McCain supporter.
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:29 PM |
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klingklang77
kraftwerk!
Member since 7/06 11487 total posts
Name:
Völlig losgelöst
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by Deedlebug126
Wasn't intended for you, sorry you internalized it. I didnt know you do not live here.
Fair enough. Good night all.
Message edited 10/19/2008 11:56:52 PM.
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:29 PM |
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HoneyBadger
YourWorstNightmare.
Member since 10/06 15979 total posts
Name:
BahBahBlackJeep
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by Deedlebug126
I hate phelps
That hurt. 
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:29 PM |
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snowflake08
Love my boys!!!
Member since 8/07 5148 total posts
Name:
Laura
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by Jennie0898
Posted by snowflake08
and so many people i ask in person about obama say "i dont know, i just want a change" or "i dont know, mccain is old"
or, "well, obama will take land that people own and put it to good use!"
or even better "well, mccain voted for the bail out"
SO DID OBAMA!!!
Ok, so I'll answer one more time!!
Honestly, at this stage of the game I think you'd get a hell of a lot more from an Obama supporter than this.
As I would think you'd get more from a McCain supporter.
I would think so too - and then there are those that really believe he will cut taxes! NO ONE is going to cut taxes LOL
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:30 PM |
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Deedlebugs
Blessed
Member since 12/05 10281 total posts
Name:
Kiki
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by Jennie0898
Posted by Deedlebug126
I hate phelps
That hurt.
I know 
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:30 PM |
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smdl
I love Gary too..on a plate!
Member since 5/06 32461 total posts
Name:
me
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by snowflake08
what has **** Cheney done anyway?
LOL
He shot a friend in the woods! 
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:31 PM |
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HoneyBadger
YourWorstNightmare.
Member since 10/06 15979 total posts
Name:
BahBahBlackJeep
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by Deedlebug126
Posted by Jennie0898
Posted by Deedlebug126
I hate phelps
That hurt.
I know
Wow.
Sadistic much? 
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:31 PM |
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snowflake08
Love my boys!!!
Member since 8/07 5148 total posts
Name:
Laura
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by smdl
Posted by snowflake08
what has **** Cheney done anyway?
LOL
He shot a friend in the woods!
LOL true
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:31 PM |
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sunnyplus3
:)
Member since 11/05 8749 total posts
Name:
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
I really have trouble with the whole "where are your facts to support your OPINION"
Since when do people base opinions or decisions merely on facts? As far as I know they base them on FEELINGS and facts or even inaccurate information they have.
Neither of our CANDIDATES have given all of the facts, thats why we love factchecker.org
Why are we holding LIFers to a higher standard?
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:32 PM |
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snowflake08
Love my boys!!!
Member since 8/07 5148 total posts
Name:
Laura
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by smdl
Posted by snowflake08
what has **** Cheney done anyway?
LOL
He shot a friend in the woods!
not in the woods - he shot him in the face and chest LOL
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:33 PM |
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Deedlebugs
Blessed
Member since 12/05 10281 total posts
Name:
Kiki
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by snowflake08
Posted by smdl
Posted by snowflake08
what has **** Cheney done anyway?
LOL
He shot a friend in the woods!
not in the woods - he shot him in the face and chest LOL
Hey I didnt vote for them
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:33 PM |
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snowflake08
Love my boys!!!
Member since 8/07 5148 total posts
Name:
Laura
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by KellyFG
I really have trouble with the whole "where are your facts to support your OPINION"
Since when do people base opinions or decisions merely on facts? As far as I know they base them on FEELINGS and facts or even inaccurate information they have.
Neither of our CANDIDATES have given all of the facts, thats why we love factchecker.org
Why are we holding LIFers to a higher standard?
that is why i said i may not agree or "support" but i have to vote for the person i feel more "comfortable" voting for - It is a feeling
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:33 PM |
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snowflake08
Love my boys!!!
Member since 8/07 5148 total posts
Name:
Laura
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by Deedlebug126
Posted by snowflake08
Posted by smdl
Posted by snowflake08
what has **** Cheney done anyway?
LOL
He shot a friend in the woods!
not in the woods - he shot him in the face and chest LOL
Hey I didnt vote for them
me either!!!
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:34 PM |
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Deedlebugs
Blessed
Member since 12/05 10281 total posts
Name:
Kiki
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Gotta hit you where it hurts 
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:34 PM |
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stickydust
Now a mommy of 2!!!
Member since 4/06 3164 total posts
Name:
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Re: An open question to McCain supporters....
Posted by smdl
."
This is the definition I got too in my polical classes.
But in reality most socialist countries are also a bit capitalist too. They combine both doctrines.[/QU
Oops I forgot to list my example. Cuba. When Castro came in he came in under a platform of socialism which later turned into communism (although it is not truly communism). I am very versed in Cuban politics courtesy of my parents
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| Posted 10/19/08 11:35 PM |
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